Orthodox Church In Jerusalem Possible Land Sale Fraud

[Hadel]

Hi all,

Please read below I have "pasted" from the Jordan Times this morning... thanks, Hadel

   
Orthodox Council urges probe into reported Jerusalem land sale   
   
AMMAN/JERUSALEM (JT and agencies) GÇö Lower House Speaker Abdul Hadi Majali said on Sunday that the House and the government would work together to investigate a reported sale of sensitive Jerusalem property to Jewish organisations.
Majali's remarks were made in response to a petition signed by 53 deputies and presented by Deputy Khalil Attiyyeh, joining the Orthodox Council in Jordan and Palestine in urging the government to carry out the investigation.

They called for enforcing a 1958 law which they said defines relations between the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate and Arab followers of the church in the Holy Land, in order GÇ£to preserve Arab rights... because the orthodox cause is an integral part of the great Arab cause and the question of Palestine.GÇ¥

An Israeli newspaper reported on Friday that a Greek Orthodox Church official secretly sold land in Jerusalem to Jews. The Maariv said the official, an aide to Patriarch Eireneos, sold the land to groups seeking to bolster Jewish presence in the area.

In Jerusalem, Arab leaders of the Greek Orthodox Church in the Holy Land demonstrated and called for the resignation of Patriarch Eireneos, accusing the church of betraying the Palestinian cause, the Associated Press reported.

The church said it was investigating the reported sale.

Dozens of faithful staged a protest in Jerusalem Sunday, calling Patriarch Eireneos a GÇ£collaboratorGÇ¥ and demanding his resignation. Palestinian church leaders have also demanded that he step down.

Archbishop Aristarchos, the chief secretary of the patriarchate, declined to confirm or deny whether the sale had taken place.

GÇ£This is an unfortunate event. We are investigating,GÇ¥ he said. GÇ£We shall try to cancel whatever actions have been done illegally.GÇ¥

In a statement, the church said any sale that might have taken place was unauthorised, adding that an arrest warrant had been issued in Greece for a former employee allegedly involved in the case. During Sunday's protest, several dozen people gathered at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre GÇö the traditional site of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection GÇö and marched to the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate, chanting slogans and carrying signs such as GÇ£no to Judaise JerusalemGÇ¥ and GÇ£We will not rest until the patriarch is fired.GÇ¥

GÇ£What is more difficult than witnessing the sale of Jerusalem?GÇ¥ said Ellen Kashram, a deputy school principal who joined the crowd.

When the patriarch left morning Mass, about 10 people started heckling him and calling him a collaborator.

Eireneos did not comment.

After a brief standoff with the Israeli police, Palestinian representatives of the church who were leading the protest met privately with the patriarch's aides.

Nabil Mshahwar, chairman of the Arab Orthodox Council of Jerusalem, said church leaders denied any connection to a land sale and said they suspect fraud. He added that the council informed the Jordanian and Palestinian governments about similar GÇ£illegal practices that seek to minimise Christian presence in the Holy City of Jerusalem before any negotiations over the future of Jerusalem take place.GÇ¥

The Greek Orthodox Patriarchate represents about 100,000 faithful in the Holy Land, who represent about three per cent of the Christian society in the occupied territories. In Jordan, the Orthodox congregation constitutes about 55 per cent of Christian society.

The church is one of the biggest property owners in Jerusalem, including large tracts of real estate inside the Old City. It also shares control of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre with other Christian denominations.

Monday, March 21, 2005

   
   

[Antiochian]

I was absolutely outraged and ashamed at hearing of this.

How can our own church betray us like this?

Who on earth can we trust? I'm absolutely disgusted, and there needs to be a serious overhaul of the Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem.

I feel betrayed by the Greeks, something has to be done about this.

How shameful, and during our fasting period as well. I am disgusted!

[TomS]

Church rift over land sale scandal?
RAMALLAH (AFP) - The Greek Orthodox Church was flung into a fresh crisis yesterday as Palestinian MPs voted for Arab Orthodox Christians to secede from the Greek Patriarchate of Jerusalem following its alleged sale of land in the ancient city to Jewish investors.

The latest twist in the ongoing scandal, which has resurrected a bitter split within the Greek Orthodox community in the Holy Land, came as Patriarch Irenaios denied any involvement in the alleged land sale in JerusalemGÇÖs Old City.

GÇ£I formally and categorically deny any personal implication, or implication of the Patriarchate in this alleged transaction, the details of which we know nothing,GÇ¥ he said in a statement four days after the scandal broke.

But in a special session to discuss the crisis, the Palestinian Parliament passed a resolution urging the Palestinian Authority to no longer recognize the authority of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate over the Orthodox Arab community.

The resolution calls on the Palestinian leadership GÇ£not to recognize the patriarch,GÇ¥ and GÇ£to work through legal means for the Arabization of the Orthodox ChurchGÇ¥ in the occupied Palestinian territories.

GÇ£We must separate the Palestinian Orthodox Church from the Greek Orthodox Church,GÇ¥ said MP Hanan Ashrawi during the debate. GÇ£We must solve this crisis by making the church an Arab church.GÇ¥

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100008_23/03/2005_54363

[Αριστοκλής]

I don't see how PHYLETISM and a schismatic church are going to solve a problem, if indeed there is one outside of the activist Arabs wanting to control the church.
If the JP did wrong, he should be brought to account. Splitting the JP will be its death sentence.

[Antiochian]

In order to calm down the situation, a MASSIVE overhaul of the Greek Church in Jerusalem is needed!

How can they sell a piece of OUR land? I don't see Jewish rabbis involved in stingy deals helping our community. There is obviously corruption in the ranks of the Greek Orthodox Church and it has two options ... clean its church out, or face a schism, starting with Palestine! And I can assure you, if this continues, I will be lobbying for a similar schism in Antioch. I will not stand for betrayal and Athenian corruption.

[Αριστοκλής]

In order to calm down the situation, a MASSIVE overhaul of the Greek Church in Jerusalem is needed!

How can they sell a piece of OUR land? I don't see Jewish rabbis involved in stingy deals helping our community. There is obviously corruption in the ranks of the Greek Orthodox Church and it has two options ... clean its church out, or face a schism, starting with Palestine! And I can assure you, if this continues, I will be lobbying for a similar schism in Antioch. I will not stand for betrayal and Athenian corruption.

IF there is a problem, then I heartily agree with you. BUT I smell the machinations of an Israeli ploy to obtain yet more Christian assets, for little consideration as usual I might add.
Schism will allow the Israeli to more easily plunder - better believe it.
Athenian corruption? Strange - they seem to support this church in money quite heavily.
BTW, the quoted news story is not exactly from a church friendly publication.
Split Antioch? What a laugh! Why split the only Arab church - they got control from "the Greeks" long ago.

[Fr. Anastasios]

This isn't the first time that the Israelis have tried something like this, and unfortunately when it happened in 1994/5, the Antiochians in America published in "The Word" a long attack on the Jerusalem Patriarchate.  The Antiochians want to see a repeat of what happened in their patriarchate in 1898 happen in Jerusalem but with the Antiochians supporting Jerusalem with bishops instead of Greece, that would basically end the JP's conservative Old Calendar and traditionalist witness.

I am for reform--maybe adding a few Arab bishops for instance--but no way would I support ending the JP's current status quo altogether.

And we should really be more sypathetic to the JP. It's under seige by Muslims, Israelis, Catholics, and Protestants!

Anastasios

[Αριστοκλής]

...that would basically end the JP's conservative Old Calendar and traditionalist witness.

A real travesty to be sure. The JP's position is one of the reasons I stay in the GOA (I know that doesn't follow logically; but I see the JP as an anchor against the modernist tide).

And we should really be more sypathetic to the JP. It's under seige by Muslims, Israelis, Catholics, and Protestants!

AND by a large part of his own flock, apparently.

[observer]

<The resolution calls on the Palestinian leadership GÇ£not to recognize the patriarch,GÇ¥ and GÇ£to work through legal means for the Arabization of the Orthodox ChurchGÇ¥ in the occupied Palestinian territories.>

This is not new.  Some Arabs in the Antiochian Church have been striiving to make JP, Arab for years.   His Holiness Patriarch Irenaeos is caught in the middle of a land grab.  The Israelis want the whole of Jerusalem and so do the Arabs.  This has nothing to do with Church. That the JP owns property seized by the Israeli Govenment does not make the Patriarchate collaborators.  Read the press on both sides. What better way to undermine traditional Orthodoxy than to start false allegations against the Mother of Churches or to sow discord between brethren.  By the grace of God, the Holy Fire will descend at Pascha as always!

[MBZ]

Hi all!

This was in the English edition of yesterday's Ha'aretz (one of our main daily papers here):

Last update - 02:24 23/03/2005

Greek Patriarchate in trouble over shady land deal

By Danny Rubinstein

Last Friday evening Jerusalem's Greek Orthodox patriarch issued an urgent press release: "In light of the media reports regarding the sale of the Patriarchate's assets in Omar Ibn Al-Khattab Square in Jerusalem," read the statement, "I, Irineos I, patriarch of the Holy City, rigorously and absolutely deny, personally or in the capacity of my position, any connection with this fictitious transaction, about which we so far have no knowledge."

Irineos went on to say that he will sue anyone who claims otherwise, and that only the supreme body of the Patriarchate, the Holy Synod, is authorized to sell church assets.

This news release came in response to a main headline in Friday's edition of Maariv, which said that two groups of Jewish investors from abroad had purchased church assets in the Jaffa Gate plaza (Omar Ibn Al-Khattab Square), including the two long-standing Petra and Imperial hotels and a few stores.

According to the Maariv report, the church assets were sold by a young Greek named Nicholas Papadimas, who had received a power of attorney for this purpose. Representatives of the Patriarchate explained last weekend that Papadimas received a power of attorney to rent the church's properties, but not to sell them, so the sale, if there even was one, is not valid.

The nature of the transaction concerning the church's assets near Jaffa Gate is not clear, but one thing that is certain is that the report caused quite a stir in the Palestinian Authority, in Jerusalem's Christian community, in Jordan and even in Greece. Irineos' strident denial has not helped him.

Ever since the news item appeared five days ago, PA government and parliamentary committees have been investigating the affair. The Jordanian government has also asked to be included in the probe, and the Greek Foreign Ministry sent a special delegation to Israel, which spent the entire day yesterday in a series of meetings with Irineos and his officials.

"I will cooperate with any inquiry," said Irineos, while the Greek Foreign Ministry has issued an announcement that according to the information in its possession, "if any deal was transacted with those assets, it has no validity as it was conducted in violation of church laws and without the knowledge of the Holy Synod."

A very sharp response to the reports also came from Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia.

"This is a most dangerous affair," said Qureia, who in recent days has reiterated his demand to do everything to cancel the sale of the properties. "Israel is mistaken if she thinks she can change the Arab and Christian character of the Holy City by such measures."

Qureia lambasted all the activities aimed at "Judaizing Jerusalem" and the construction of the "racist separation wall" around it, which he feels is designed to oust all the Arabs from the city.

The plaza of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, adjacent to the Patriarchate, has been the site since Sunday of a series of demonstrations by members of the Christian Arab community, organized by the Christian Coalition action committee. Committee leaders have repeatedly announced that they will not rest or be silent until Patriarch Irineos is unseated. The committee, headed by Marwan Toubasi, Imad Awad and Dimitri Diliani, is raising the familiar demand to transfer the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem from the Greek priests to the Arab priests, claiming that "the Greek Patriarchate has become a branch of the Jewish Agency."

Most of the Christian churches in the Holy Land have undergone a process of Arabization in recent years, with local Arab clergy replacing foreign priests. Only the Orthodox Patriarchate continues to be controlled with a heavy hand by the Greeks, while the Arab priests ask rhetorically, "Did you bring the church lands with you on ships from Greece? These are the lands and the homes of our forefathers."

The Greek Orthodox Patriarchate is the oldest and richest in Israel. It owns extensive properties in every corner of Israel, in the neighboring countries and overseas, including in Greece. It is a kind of miniature kingdom controlled by the patriarch, above whom there is no higher authority. Only a few restrictions are placed on him by the 17 Greek priests, members of the Holy Synod, and the patriarch is effectively an omnipotent ruler concerning the church assets.

For years there have been news reports of corruption within the church and the involvement of powerful organizations in the fate of the Patriarchate's assets. Foreign governments, contractors and various intelligence services, tycoons and oligarchs meddle in the affairs of the church and its assets. Dozens of attorneys, both Israeli and foreign, work for the church, which is rife with power struggles and a strong undercurrent of chaos.

The current wave of scandals in the Patriarchate began in 2000, after the death of the previous Patriarch, Diadoros. Three senior priests waged a fierce campaign for the position of patriarch, who is elected by representatives of the church institutions. The election campaign was accompanied by threats, pressure, forged documents and worse. Metropolitan Irineos, who was finally chosen, was assisted in his campaign by a Greek citizen named Apostolos Vavilis, who later turned out to be a con artist with several identities and who had served time in prison for drug trafficking.

Vavilis, who even now is a fugitive wanted by Interpol, has been at the eye of the huge political storm in Greece in recent weeks, after it turned out he had connections with Archbishop Christodoulos, head of the Orthodox Church in Greece and one of the most influential people in that country. Christodoulos apparently sent Vavilis to Jerusalem to help Irineos' election campaign.

The Greek media have been having a media fest with the story, intimating that Vavilis, who was married to an Israeli, might be a Mossad agent, and that he had dealings with the Israeli Defense Ministry and even sold Israeli military equipment to the Greek police.

After Irineos was elected patriarch in August 2001, he distanced himself from Vavilis and shortly thereafter hired a young Greek, namely Papadimas, who was living in Tel Aviv. Papadimas became Irineos' confidante in all matters concerning the Patriarchate's properties and finances. Three weeks ago Papadimas suddenly disappeared, along with his Israeli wife and their infant son.

At first the Patriarchate claimed that he had stolen millions of dollars. Then it turned out that he had not fled as a thief, but rather because he had become a victim of the squabbles within the Patriarchate and feared someone would harm him and his family.

Either way, Papadimas has been in hiding for the past few weeks, and is now suspected of being the man who sold the hotels and stores at Jaffa gate on behalf of Irineos to a group of Jews from abroad. Irineos is now a victim of the whole affair, and it is doubtful whether he will be able to recover from this scandal, as pressure increases for his ouster.

Just a few months ago, Irineos complained to the police that someone was trying to murder him. The police arrested a suspect, but he was released when the allegations against him were proven groundless.

Now Irineos will have to face extensive inquiries. The big winners now are his opponents, priests within the Patriarchate, who want to replace him. They seem to be close to their goal.

Link: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/555596.html

Be well!

MBZ

[Antiochian]

Thank God the land isn't being sold, thank you MBZ.

As for the Antiochian Church, we're still affiliated to some extent with the Greek Orthodox Church. After all, we are still correctly titled the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch.

The Hellenistic era of the Middle East is over, so why persist with having Greek clergy preside over an Arab mass?

If the Greeks wish to remain in charge of the Arab Christians, then they must represent the opinions of the Arab Christians and be extremely sensitive to our issues.

At the end of the day, we are all Orthodox Christians, and we should all support each other in need. I don't think anyone can attack me for my sense of outrage and betrayal at hearing of a Greek Orthodox Christian selling the Arab Orthodox short in favour of personal deals with the arch enemy.

I and all Arab Orthodox I know have supported Greece's struggle against Turkey, particularly in their loss of Constantinople, as well as supporting Cyprus. I think it's fair to expect the same support from the Greek Orthodox in issues concerning us.

[Αριστοκλής]

As for the Antiochian Church, we're still affiliated to some extent with the Greek Orthodox Church. After all, we are still correctly titled the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch.

You lessen the force of your argument by a silly statement. "Greek" Orthodox does not mean Hellenic any more than "Roman" Catholic means Italian.

The Hellenistic era of the Middle East is over, so why persist with having Greek clergy preside over an Arab mass?

And so it was with the Serbs; in time they got their own.

[MBZ]

Hi all!

I saw this on the AFP wire late yesterday:

Athens opposes 'Arabisation' of Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem

Wed Mar 23, 4:09 PM ET

ATHENS (AFP) - The Greek government said it will defend the historical character of the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem, following Palestinian calls for its "Arabisation."

In Ramallah, on the West Bank, Palestinian MPs -- furious at the alleged sale of Jerusalem land to Jewish investors by the Greek patriarchy -- voted Tuesday for Arab Orthodox Christians to secede from the Greek patriarchy.

They passed a resolution urging the Palestinian Authority (news - web sites) to no longer recognise the authority of the Greek Orthodox patriarchy over the Orthodox Arab community.

Denials of the alleged land sale, issued by Greek Patriarch Irineos I in Jerusalem, fell on deaf ears.

A Greek government spokesman, Evangelos Antonaros, said here that the Greek Orthodox patriarchy in Jerusalem had a history spanning centuries, and he believed most of the flock would not want to abandon it.

An investigation into the matter is under way, assisted by Greek foreign ministry experts who arrived in the Old City on Monday.

"Taking the results of the investigation into consideration, we will decide on steps that will defend the patriarchy's historical characteristics," Antonaros said.

The Greek team includes lawyers, financial experts and the Greek foreign ministry's head of religious affairs, the Greek embassy in Jerusalem said.

"The foreign ministry sent its group of experts to Jerusalem on Monday who are charged with investigating the reported sale of real estate of the Patriarch of Jerusalem," it said in a statement.

Allegations about the land sale were first published in Israel's Maariv daily.

Purchasing property in the Old City -- in occupied and annexed east Jerusalem -- is fraught with political tensions as Jewish groups often try to obtain properties in Palestinian areas in a major settlement drive.

Link: http://tinyurl.com/5tzc7

I've read where one of the reasons which led to the secession of some local Greek Orthodox & the setting up of the uniate Greek Cathoilic (Melkite) Church in the early-to-mid 1700's in this part of the world was a desire for an "Arabised" church with an Arabic liturgy & an Arabic-speaking clergy.-á Is this right?

Be well!

MBZ

[Αριστοκλής]

I've read where one of the reasons which led to the secession of some local Greek Orthodox & the setting up of the uniate Greek Cathoilic (Melkite) Church in the early-to-mid 1700's in this part of the world was a desire for an "Arabised" church with an Arabic liturgy & an Arabic-speaking clergy.-á Is this right?

I had not heard of the language issue causing this 1724(?) schism; however that should be a moot point in the case of the JP. Greek is used at the patriarchate itself and in heirarchal liturgies. Otherwise Arabic is used.

[Orthodoc]

[I've read where one of the reasons which led to the secession of some local Greek Orthodox & the setting up of the uniate Greek Cathoilic (Melkite) Church in the early-to-mid 1700's in this part of the world was a desire for an "Arabised" church with an Arabic liturgy & an Arabic-speaking clergy.  Is this right?]

This is correct.  The melkite Greek Catholic Church was mainly the result of the Greek mentality to both Hellenize and force Greek down the throats of non Greeks.  Unfortunately the first time the Divine Liturgy was heard in Arabic was as Melchite Greek Catholics.

Did you knowthat the first time the Albanian Orthodox Church was able to hear the Divine Liturgy in Albanian was here in the U.S. because for the same reasons?

Orthodoc

[Αριστοκλής]

And, of course, it was those dastardly Greeks who recently reconstituted the Albanian Orthodox Church and who continue to foster its revitalization...how dare they!

[observer]

Today we celebrate the holy memory of St Sophronios, Patrarchate of Jerusalem, who is reported to have been an Arab.-á I don't suppose he called himself Arab Orthodox or Greek Orthodox, but if he had to label his Orthodoxy, it would probably be Roman Orthodox (Fr John Romanides..he.he.).
Would it be good to see-á a non ethnic Roman as Patriarch?-á If he is a holy man, then yes.-á Let stay with Irenaeos, who is in essence a monk first, then bishop.

[Deacon Lance]

"Let stay with Irenaeos, who is in essence a monk first, then bishop."

I would say trouble maker first.  Since being enthroned he has gotten into fights with the Armenians (scuffle over the Holy Fire), Copts (knocked candles in the Copt Chapel down), Syrians (had monks grab and break crozier of Syrian bishop), and Franciscans (demanded Franciscan Chapel door closed and started fight), and plans to make trouble yet again by violating the status quo and demanding that his procession go through the Franciscan Chapel.  The previous Patrirarch had not a single incident that I can recall.  I'll give anyone the benefit of the doubt, but four incidents with separate groups and it is not hard to see who the instigator is.

Fr. Deacon Lance

[greekischristian]

Well, as I regard the Patriarch of Jerusalem to the the only legitimate Bishop of the City, so it seems to me that the others are violating proper canonical order by not giving him the respect that is due. But then again, as an Orthodox Christian I may be a little biased (not that this is a bad thing).

[Αριστοκλής]

Before the fireworks start, greekischristian, I just want to state now that I'm on your side 

[Fr. Anastasios]

Deacon Lance,

An eyewitness to the Franciscan scuffle made it clear to me that the Franciscans started it. They wouldn't shut that door, they were supposed to, and they were taunting the Greeks.  In the Holy Sepulchre, precedent is an oft-cited tool of either side in court cases. If the Franciscans had kept that door opened and moved in on the turf of the Orthodox, it could have led to the Orthodox losing more space. That's why the boundaries are jealously guarded.

Anastasios

[Orthodoc]

Deacon Lance,

An eyewitness to the Franciscan scuffle made it clear to me that the Franciscans started it. They wouldn't shut that door, they were supposed to, and they were taunting the Greeks.-á In the Holy Sepulchre, precedent is an oft-cited tool of either side in court cases. If the Franciscans had kept that door opened and moved in on the turf of the Orthodox, it could have led to the Orthodox losing more space. That's why the boundaries are jealously guarded.

Anastasios

==========

I also notice Deacon lance  fails to give the take over of the 'Church of the Nativity' a few years back as another example.-á

That was when these very Franciscians escorted the Moselms to the Orthodox section of the Church of the Nativity and locked the doors behind them!-á All the desecration was done in the Orthodox section while the Roman Catholic section was left untouched.

Regarding the incident of the Holy Fire in 2003 that Deacon Lance refers to, once again it was caused by the Armenians trying to take advantage of the new Patriarch by turning their backs on centuries of protocol.

Protocol is important in this Church.-á If it is not followed it immediately creates a new precedent for some -

http://www.holyfire.org/eng/doc_Tablet_2003.htm


The dispute is a year old. Last yearGÇÖs Holy Fire ceremony was marred by a scandalous scuffle inside the shrine containing what remains of ChristGÇÖs tomb. The Greek Patriarch, Irineos, who was performing the ritual for the first time, and an Armenian archimandrite who had three yearsGÇÖ practice behind him, violently disagreed over the correct procedure. Ancient privilege and precedent were at stake. Unseen by the expectant faithful, behind the aediculeGÇÖs closed doors, the furious patriarch blew out the ArmenianGÇÖs candle, lit with holy fire, forcing the Armenian to resort to a cigarette lighter to gain his point. The Greek lost a shoe in the scuffle and his rival sustained light injuries when two more Greek clergy and Israeli police burst into the shrine to join the fray.

What really happened between the Orthodox and Armenian Patriarchates -

On Tuesday, Sharansky summoned representatives from the Greek Orthodox and Armenian Churches and told them that they must reach an agreement by today, or he would limit participation to 500 people from each church.

"It is not the place of the Jewish state to intervene in Christian worship," said Sharansky, "but we will ensure safety."

The Holy Fire ceremony has been observed by Eastern Orthodox churches for several centuries. For the ritual, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is darkened on the day before Easter.

Orthodox church leaders enter the area of what is believed to be Jesus' tomb inside the basilica and emerge with a flame, from which the candles of worshipers crowded in the ancient church are lit.

The ceremony is meant to assure the faithful that Jesus has not forgotten them and is sending a message of hope through the fire.

The dispute concerns a change in protocol that is hundreds of years old, explained Bishop Aris Shirvanian, director of Ecumenical and Foreign Relations in the Armenian Church.

The Armenians say that tradition dictates that the Greek Patriarch enter the holiest site in the Church, called the Chamber of the Tomb, followed by a representative of the Armenian Patriarch, who then light candles from the holy fire.

However, the Greeks say that the Armenian representative has traditionally waited outside in the less-holy Chamber of Angels, and only in recent years has he entered, taking advantage of the former Greek Patriarch's illness.

According to Shirvanian, things went awry last year when the new Greek Patriarch insisted on exiting the chamber first, although the Armenian is closer to the exit and by tradition leaves first.

When the Armenian representative insisted on being first out, the Greek Patriarch grabbed his arm and extinguished the holy fire.

"Regrettably, a scuffle ensued," said Shirvanian.

The Greek demand that the Armenian representative wait outside in the Chamber of Angels "is totally unacceptable to us," he said.

But the Greek Orthodox leader is just as adamant. Archbishop Aristarchos of the Greek Church said, "This is the tradition according to documents which we have found and submitted."    
   

==========

Orthodoc   

[Antiochian]

That isn't a silly statement at all, (do you have a name I can type in Latin characters)?

I am aware the term "Greek" in Orthodox has nothing to do with Hellenism. I refer to myself as Greek Orthodox, I have no concerns with that. I was referring to the fact that there remains ethnic Greek clergy who preside over Arab masses.

As for the land sale, I'm unsure now, did the sale go ahead or not?