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Author Topic: Orthodox family slaughtered by Muslims in NJ  (Read 2956 times) Average Rating: 0
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EkhristosAnesti
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« on: January 17, 2005, 02:42:04 AM »

A Coptic Orthodox family in Nj has been slaughtered Quranic style by Muslims, because the Father and daughter had been heavily involved in religious debate and discussion on the internet, exposing Islam for what it is. The family escaped Egypt because of religious persecution, only to be killed by these filthy scumbags in the land which is supposed to promote freedom of speech. Please pray for all who suffer because of this tragic event, and please pray that the ban of this filthy dirty evil satanic quran starts seriously being considered.

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/38704.htm
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1321798/posts

Islamic extremists may have murdered four members of a Coptic Orthodox family found bound, gagged and with their throats slit on Friday in their Jersey City home, a law-enforcement official familiar with the case said.


The official confirmed that Hudson County investigators, as well the FBI, were "knee-deep" in pulling computer records and were coming to terms with the possibility that the family may have been targeted for death because of exchanges about religion in an Internet chat room.


The official cautioned, though, that investigators have not ruled out other possibilities, such as a robbery gone awry.


Hossam Armanious, 47, Amal Garas, 37, and their daughters Sylvia, 15, and Monica, 8, were found dead in their Oakland Avenue home early Friday after family members alerted police that nobody had heard from them in days.


First Assistant Hudson County Prosecutor Guy Gregory declined to discuss any details of the case, other than to confirm that police have ruled out a dispute the family had with a former tenant as a possible motive. He cautioned against speculating about the motive behind the murders.


"This is a very delicate investigation and one where we have spent hours at the scene collecting evidence and with the evidence collection complete, we're moving to bring in people that we feel need to be interviewed," Gregory said. "It's unfortunate that people are speculating."


But as the theory spread that revenge and religion were the driving forces behind one of the most heinous murders in the county's long history, fear enveloped the city's Coptic community.


Friends, relatives and co-worshippers of the devout family spent much of Saturday wondering how the seemingly upstanding Armanious family could fall victim to such a shockingly brutal crime. Several spoke of Hossam Armanious' participation in heated discussions about the Islamic faith on the Paltalk.com messenger service and threats he received for expressing his views about the religion.


Milad Garas, an uncle of Amal Garas, said Saturday that he was told investigators are probing whether the killings could have been prompted in part by the chat sessions. He also pointed to a passage in the Muslim holy book, the Quran, that details how enemies should be killed - bound and their throats slit, an assertion that drew a rebuttal from some Islamic scholars, but was supported by others.


A translation of passage 47:4 of the Quran reads in part: "Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers [in fight], smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly [on them]."


"There is a very wide range of interpretation of that, and it depends on where people are in the spectrum," said Frederick M. Denny, a professor of religious studies at the University of Colorado and author of more than a dozen books on Islam. "If they were going toward the extremist side, it could lead someone to believe it is justified. ... There are those that take that [passage] quite literally."


The close-knit Coptic community promised protests if the religious revenge theory proves accurate.


"If it turns out they were killed for religion, then we will [protest]," said Ayman Garas, Amal's younger brother. "We have to be patient, we can't do anything stupid. ... But it looks like it is religion, maybe."


The Armanious family moved to the United States from Egypt in part to escape religious persecution. Hossam Armanious had sensed a rise in anti-Christian extremism and wanted to make a better life for his family in America, Ayman Garas said.


"What I really want to know is: How?'' he said. "We just can't believe it at this point. Everything has passed like a dream."


The details of what may have been said in the chat sessions were not known Saturday night.


Fred Ayad, deacon of the couple's St. George Coptic Orthodox Church, said that the entire community was in a "panic" over the apparent targeting of the family, as well as the murders of a Coptic deacon in December and a Coptic cabdriver in late 2003.


Prosecutor Gregory said the conjecture about the murders is hampering his office's investigation, which he said has been exhaustive.


Copts are Egyptian Christians, a minority group of about 6 million in a nation of 60 million, and have been killed in religious rioting and during attacks on Christian churches by Islamic militants. Coptic leaders also say they lack representation in the Egyptian government and are treated like second-class citizens.


Over the past decade, Copts have increasingly immigrated to the United States. Currently, they number about 1 million in this country. Coptic Orthodox churches are scattered throughout the nation and, while there is no official count, Coptic Web sites list about 10 large congregations in New Jersey and about 20 in the tri-state area.


Islamic leaders said Saturday that the murders could not have been the work of someone inspired by the Quran.


"We are not a bloody people," said Ahmed Shedeed, director of the Islamic Center of Jersey City. "This is not from the Quran. This is not from Islam at all."


Shedeed, who is Egyptian, said his group recently co-founded a social service organization with local Coptic churches, called Egyptian Family.


"We are trying to get religious leaders from both communities to meet on a monthly basis to break the ice between the people," he said. "We meet as individuals, but as organizations we never have done such a thing. We are trying to show that Egyptians together can benefit."


Shedeed said that as part of that effort, he attended Christmas Eve services at St. George's this year.


Asked about passages in the Quran that may suggest murdering non-believers in a manner that resembles the family's deaths, he replied, "The Quran talks about people fighting in the battle of war. It's not talking about people who live next to you. ... This has nothing to do with our community at all."


"The Quran stands very firmly against taking human life," said noted Islamic author Zayn Kassam, chairwoman of the religious studies department of Pomona College in California. "If someone read a verse and used it to justify the killing of four people, I believe that person is unbalanced. ... There are very few Muslims who would support this sort of thing."


On Saturday, the family received mourners at the church, as friends left lighted candles and flowers in front of the home. Neighbors talked of an exhaustive police investigation, with a former Armanious tenant, Nelly Ramirez, saying police had questioned her, her son and her son's girlfriend.


Meanwhile, friends of Sylvia, a high school sophomore who would have turned 16 on Saturday, lingered in front of the house, alternately crying and laughing. They talked of an extremely gifted teen who recently won a trip to Italy from the National Honor Society for a series of essays she wrote on topics such as Shakespeare and Charles Dickens.


"She used to write all the time," said her friend Jankil Patel, 15. "She used to go to church all the time. ... She'd debate people in class and even had a religious tattoo on her [right wrist]."


"She had a lot of friends; she was very popular," said Jessica Cimino, 15, another friend. Cimino and the other girls said they plan to attend the family funeral on Monday and wear T-shirts bearing Sylvia's image to school on Tuesday.


Ayman and Milad Garad and other family members were allowed into the crime scene for the first time on Saturday morning to gather the needed paperwork for the cemetery. They left the home with a briefcase and several other items, including a tank with several small turtles inside.

American political comment erased so as to forestall the thread taking a turn to politics instead of focusing on the victims.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2005, 03:11:12 AM by Anastasios » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2005, 03:02:20 AM »

May the merciful Saviour bring the souls of that family into His Kingdom. Certainly, for this, they can be counted as martyrs.

May the Mohammadans who committed this vile act also be punlished to the fullest extent of our laws, then the Laws of God.
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2005, 03:35:18 AM »

Wow....folks from the "religion of peace" strike again.... :flame: I saw this on the news the other night and it angered me to no end that this kind of garbage can happen in our own country. Imagine the headlines if it would have been reversed and it were some christians that were the perpretators. I'm sure that would be a "real" hate crime and would have made front headlines on the LA or NY Times for a few days running. This one will be buried somewhere back on page A18 though. Anway, I'm really shocked this happened on american soil. I really think they should pass some special laws against radical islam and if anyone is found having these views they should be given a first class ticket back to crapistan or wherever they came from. I also don't get why the majority of peaceful muslims put up with this garbage because it gives them such a bad name. I don't ever recall seeing any whites walking down the street in my neighborhood recently or ever with a bunch of white sheets over them and if I did I would make sure I would beat them down with a baseball bat along with just about everyone else that find such things appalling and unacceptable. I'm wondering when the muslims around the world are going to do the same thing to these savages stuck in the 7th century.
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2005, 03:47:49 AM »

This is truly sad and horrifying news.  Sad 

Let us remember to pray for their souls as well as for the Coptic Orthodox Church which has suffered extreme persecution, which seems to be escalating.

Give rest, O Lord, to the souls of Thy servants who are fallen asleep.

May their memory be eternal.

In Christ,
Aaron

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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2005, 04:20:06 AM »

In related news, the 21 yr old son of a long standing Eritrean member of my parish was murdered Friday Niight.  Truly sad.
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2005, 04:37:42 AM »

Revelations 6: 9

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed."
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2005, 08:50:10 AM »

Certainly, for this, they can be counted as martyrs.

This is what I was thinking.  Is there any talk of classifying them as such?

May their memory be eternal!
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2005, 09:36:38 AM »

It would appear that everyone is jumping the gun.

Please read the following. It comes from the Jersey Journal the local Jersey City paper.

Robbery motive eyed in murder of family
One penny, no jewelry found in home
Monday, January 17, 2005
By Bonnie Friedman
Journal staff writer

Refuting other media reports, investigators said yesterday that religious extremism may not have been the cause of last week's grisly slaying of a family of four in the Jersey City Heights.

The possibility remains that the slayings came during a robbery, Hudson County First Assistant Prosecutor Guy Gregory said yesterday.

 
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He said reports that jewelry was not taken from the home were incorrect; in fact, there was no cash or jewelry found in the Oakland Avenue home, he said.

In addition, autopsies have revealed that the victims - Hossam Armanious, 47; his wife, Amal Garas, 37; and their two children, 15-year-old Sylvia Armanious, and 9-year-old Monica Armanious - bled to death from puncture wounds to their heads, necks and bodies, not from slit throats, as was previously reported.

"Their throats were not slashed. These were puncture wounds," Gregory said.

The bound and gagged bodies were found early Friday morning after frantic relatives, unable to contact them for several days, called police. Investigators believe the family, which immigrated to the United States from Luxor, Egypt, in 1997, may have been killed on Tuesday.

Officials were quick to dispel recent television and newspaper reports linking the slayings to Hossam Armanious' involvement in an online religious chat group. According to those reports, Armanious, a member of the St. George & St. Shenouda Coptic Orthodox Church, had been threatened by a Muslim for proselytizing in Internet chat groups frequented by Coptic Christians and Muslims.

Officials are also refuting a published report stating that the attackers made a gash through a tattoo of a cross on Sylvia Armanious' wrist.

"A lot of things are being reported (and) I think we have to be circumspect before assuming any motive in this case," said Hudson County Prosecutor Edward DeFazio, noting that they were working with the FBI on the case. "I don't think that anybody should jump to any conclusions as to motive. I don't think there has been anything definitive that has been established."

DeFazio added that it was unlikely that one person was responsible for the killings.

Ayman Garas, the brother of Amal Garas, lashed out at the press for quoting him as saying that the killings were religiously motivated.

"All I said is, it was weird the way they got killed," Garas said yesterday, speaking at the St. George Church annex on Bergen Avenue. "All I have to say is wait for the police to say."

Investigators have not ruled out the possibility that the slayings were the result of a robbery, officials said. The only cash found at the crime scene was "just one penny," Gregory said, and Hossam Armanious' wallet and pockets were empty when police found the bodies early Friday morning. The family reported a robbery last year in which jewelry was stolen, officials said.

"I'm not going to go into details about the scene, but it's clear from an investigation at the scene that his pockets were run and his wallet was empty," Gregory said. "No cash was found in the apartment. There was literally just one penny found in the apartment.

"There were no signs of forced entry, but that doesn't necessarily mean they knew who their attacker was," he said.

Armanious was a waiter at the Westin Hotel in Princeton, but employees there wouldn't comment yesterday. Amal Garas was a mail handler at a U.S. Postal Service processing center in Kearny.

A neighbor who also works for the post office remembered them as "a beautiful family."

"These were beautiful people and for something like this to happen is just devastating," said Samuel Houston. "They were humble people and the kids both had bright futures ahead of them."

Outside their Oakland Avenue home yesterday, dozens of teenagers from Sylvia Armanious' Sunday School sang songs, held candles and sobbed in the frigid afternoon air.

In addition to notes and photographs, mourners left a cluster of happy birthday balloons tied to the chain link fence outside the green two-story house. Sylvia Armanious was to have turned 16 on Saturday.

As friends and congregants tried to make sense of the bloody murders, many said they would turn to God for strength.

"Most kids take comfort in knowing that they're in heaven," said Maryam Meseha, 18, who worked alongside Sylvia Armanious in the church's sisterhood program. "If you ask the kids, most will say 'don't cry because she is in heaven.'"

But as the distraught community strains to find solace, so too do they seek to find justice.

"As people living in the United States, we can't keep quiet until we find out who did this," said Marian, 27, a Sunday School teacher who declined to give her last name. "This has to be at the forefront of everyone's mind."

A funeral will be held at 10:30 today at St. George & St. Shenouda Coptic Orthodox Church, 835 Bergen Ave., Jersey City.




Let the police officials do their job. Don't go by hearsay.

May the souls of Hossam, Amal, Sylvia and Monica be numbered among the just and may their memories be eternal!

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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2005, 09:48:21 AM »

Prayers for those who were so brutally murdered and for theiir family and friends who must deal with the fear of what has happened and the horrific loss to them.

However, it seems to me that the title of this thread is inflammatory and, at this point in time, speculative at best. Neither of the links provided states with any such lack of equivocation that Muslims have been determined to be implicated in the murder and law enforcement officials have been adamant that they are investigating this possibility along with all others.

If it comes to pass that faith was the cause of this family being murdered, it will have been a perversion of religion on the part of those who did so. Meanwhile, statements such as:

Quote
... these filthy scumbags ... this filthy dirty evil satanic quran ...

Quote
May the Mohammadans who committed this vile act ...

Quote
... folks from the "religion of peace" strike again ... they should pass some special laws against radical islam and if anyone is found having these views they should be given a first class ticket back to crapistan ...

are themselves hateful, presumptuous, and unworthy of a Christian environment.

It seems a bit premature and self-serving of the above kinds of ideas to classify these poor people as martyrs before there is any firm indication as to the reasons why this horrible deed occurred.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2005, 10:14:13 AM »

Quote
It would appear that everyone is jumping the gun.

Please read the following.  It comes from the Jersey Journal the local Jersey City paper.

Robbery motive eyed in murder of family


I dont think anyone's jumped the gun. You have posted a new article which contradicts NYpost, NYTimes, and Fox news, and i believe the latter three have drawn the more plausible conclusion. Robbery seems to be incidental to the crime, not the motive for it - what kind of a robber binds, gags, and repeatedly stabs his victims - what kind of a robber chases after an 8 year old girl just to slit her throat? This was a quranic style execution, in fulfillment of death threats which were witnessed by Mr Armonious's (May God rest his soul) own relatives and friends. This guy was specifically threated by a Muslim, and then savagely killed in a manner which their prophet prescribes.

If the media were ever to be bias, it would be in the reverse direction Stephen, the very direction shown in the article you pasted. Have you wandered why such a horrific crime hasnt even been touched by CNN, etc? Because the media doesnt want to get into this sort of stuff...I stick by the conclusions drawn in the articles i provided links for.
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2005, 10:25:19 AM »

Irish Melkite

You pasted my comment, in which i labelled these murderers "filthy scumbags" and the quran as "evil, satanic, dirty and filthy", and than labelled it "hateful" and "presumptuous".

With all due respect to you sir, let me show you what presumptuous really means:

posted by Irish Melkite:
Quote
If it comes to pass that faith was the cause of this family being murdered, it will have been a perversion of religion on the part of those who did so.

THAT my friend, is a load of CRAP. Tell me something, have you ever read the quran? Have you read the hadith literature? Tafsir traditions? religious decrees and fatwah's? Obviously not...you have no idea about Islam, it is YOU who wishes to presume that such an act is a perversion of Islam rather than in direct conformity with quranic prescriptions.

Would you like me to give you an abc lesson on the quran sir? We can go through it surah by sruah, ayat by ayat, and i can educate you on why the only one being presumptuous here is YOURSELF.

Now is labelling a person(s) "filthy scum bag" who savagely murders a family in such a manner, "hateful"? Please telll, what is more suitable?

Is calling a book "satanic, evil, filthy" - which is not only anti-Christ in doctrine, but the reason for so many tears, pain, and bloodshed ESPECIALLY CHRISTIAN PAIN, TEARS AND BLOOD, for over 1400 years, "hateful"?

I will confidently assert right now, that i think im qualified enough to make the conclusions i have made, on both the quran and islam...so that MY conclusion may be labelled, an educated one...not presumptuous.

You however, need to wake up, and smell the stench of Islam - im sick of people like you who want to give Muslims the beneit of the doubt, and who buy into this "Islam is peace" crap - you're so gullible.
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« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2005, 10:26:19 AM »

Have you wandered why such a horrific crime hasnt even been touched by CNN, etc?

I noticed the same. Yesterday I was channel surfing and could only find this story mentioned on FOX News. If this does turn out to be a hate crime committed by Islamic Fascists, you can bet there'll be the usual hand-wringing analysis how that family wasn't sensitive to the nuances of Islam and should have been more tolerant (i.e. shut up about their Christian Faith) to different worldviews (i.e. non-Christians who kill others over religion). And you can bet the Muslim community will once again remain largely silent, and maybe defend these guys as innocent scapegoats even if the evidence is of OJ Simpson proportions.
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« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2005, 10:33:46 AM »

what kind of a robber binds, gags, and repeatedly stabs his victims - what kind of a robber chases after an 8 year old girl just to slit her throat?


Umm, let's see ... perhaps one who doesn't want to be identified?

I note, btw, that law enforcement officials have stated that throats were not cut, that there were puncture wounds to the throat.

And as to the little temper tantrum on your part that my reply evoked, I assure you that I'm well-educated in regard to Islam, so I'll pass on your offer to educate me.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2005, 10:48:54 AM »

Irish Melkite:

Quote
Umm, let's see ... perhaps one who doesn't want to be identified?

Wow, I bet those extra stabs in the head, not to mention the gashes in the chest, and the stab in the wrist, were all for the purpose of secret identity. You are one smart chap.

Quote
I note, btw, that law enforcement officials have stated that throats were not cut, that there were puncture wounds to the throat.

Well id also like you to note, btw, the fact that there is sufficent reason to believe the article pasted by our friend Stephen, which contradicts 3 other known sources, is deliberetly trying to water everything down. Lets not forget the death threats, and the quranic style execution.

Quote
I assure you that I'm well-educated in regard to Islam, so I'll pass on your offer to educate me.

Ha! I assure you, that you know nothing about Islam. So lets start with Surat Muhammed (chapter 47), ayat 4, the very instigator of this crime:

Transliteration: Fa-itha laqeetumu allatheena kafaroo fadarba alrriqabi hatta itha athkhantumoohum fashuddoo alwathaqa fa-imma mannan baAAdu wa-imma fidaan hatta tadaAAa alharbu awzaraha thalika walaw yashao Allahu laintasara minhum walakin liyabluwa baAAdakum bibaAAdin waallatheena qutiloo fee sabeeli Allahi falan yudilla aAAmalahum sayahdeehim wayuslihu balahum

Translation: YUSUFALI: Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them):

I want you to bring me any traditional Islamic scholar's tafsir: Ibn Kathir, Imam Qurtbi, Ar-Tabari, Ar-Razi, use any of the sahih hadith traditions of Bukhari and Muslim, and show me that this verse means other than what it plainly states. If you want to argue its a descriptive rather than prescriptive verse, bring your proof.

By the way, if you dont know how to speak arabic, you automatically fail, and could not possibly know anything about Islam. This is even the quran's own criteria: see 14:4; 29:192-195; 13:37; 42 7; 39:28, and 43:3
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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2005, 11:20:53 AM »

You know, in all the years that I have posted on internet forums, I've never seen an advantage to the "ignore" function ... hmm
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« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2005, 11:27:13 AM »

Just as I expected...a cop out. Next time, dont make claims you cant substantiate so you dont end up looking stupid.
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« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2005, 12:06:19 PM »

Arguing over conjecture is stupid. Wait for the facts. As observers who know only the 4 or 5 paragraphs that were reported through online news journals, we cannot possibly know anything about the case, especially not as much as the police do. So do chill out and wait. Pray for this murdered family and their salvation, and for the murder(s) who killed them.
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« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2005, 01:33:50 PM »

Dear Friends,

From what I understand, anything is possible with regard to motive in this case, and nothing can/should be ruled out.  It is possible this had nothing to do with Islam, a "religion of peace" (I took a few classes in university, taught by a Muslim, and am still unsure of this assertion, but that's all I will say), and was merely a robbery, with witnesses brutally murdered.  However, it is also possible that this was motivated by some type of religious extremist(s).  I think it is ridiculous to cite the absence of money and jewelry as proof that it was only a robbery, and not religiously motivated: as if it is too much for some individual(s), having already brutally murdered a family of four, to take stuff.  It is best to follow the lead of this family's relatives, and wait for the investigation, without speculating too much. 

Certainly, it is understandable to get angry if this is actually as the title of this thread suggests, but we don't know for sure one way or the other: how, then, are we justified in tearing down our Christian brothers and sisters in this thread?  I don't think even the murdered family would approve: instead, we should remain united in prayer, for the repose of their souls, and for justice to be done, in this world, and in the next.  And if it is shown to be more than just a bloody robbery, but also martyrdom (as I think it may be), I will be among the first to thank God that, even through bitter suffering and pain, He has given new saints to the Orthodox Church, and to our land.

Now, this thread is quickly degenerating past the point where sensible discussion can take place, which is at the expense of our focusing on the deaths of these poor people.  We are closing the thread.  There is a thread in the Prayer forum dedicated to this family, where you can pray for them.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2005, 01:34:45 PM by Mor Ephrem » Logged

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