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Author Topic: Darwinian Evolution: The Beginning of Heresy  (Read 11797 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 20, 2006, 03:13:33 AM »

The topic of evolutionary theory has been discussed many times before, but rarely its theological implications. In the epilogue to Genesis, Creation and Early Man, Father Demascene explains how the mixing of Darwinism with the religious mind leads to the heresies of New Ageism.

In an interview, Father Damascene discussed this reality:

Quote
Even if Darwinistic evolution becomes outdated, there is still the danger, coming from those who do not believe in the Christian God, of a rejection of the purely Darwinian concept of evolution—that everything came from natural causes—and the embracing of a pseudo-spiritual evolution: the kind of spiritual evolution that we find in the Theosophy of Madame Blavatsky and Alice Bailey, the Anthroposophy of Rudolf Steiner, the writings of Teilhard de Chardin, the Kaballah, the New Age movement, etc. According to this teaching of spiritual evolution, God is identified with the creation, and the creation is seen as evolving to Divinity. This is a heretical, pagan idea that could replace, in the minds of many, the purely Darwinian concept of evolution. Proponents of the New Age in America, such as Ken Wilber, say that “evolutionary spirituality” is the “cutting edge” of the new religious consciousness. This is the spirituality of Antichrist.
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/enarticles/060222155510


Certain Orthodox men of prominence are eager to explain how Darwinian evolution, despite its many incongruencies with the patristic witness, is compatible with the Orthodox faith. However, these seem to be the same who most embrace the ecumenical movement, and thus fail to see the consequences of when Orthodox Tradition is compromised in the name of modernity.

Peace.
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2006, 03:20:43 AM »

Father Damascene seems actually to be saying that those who depart from Darwinian belief "that everything came from natural causes" are the problem. By saying "This is a heretical, pagan idea that could replace, in the minds of many, the purely Darwinian concept of evolution." he seems to suggest that Darwinism itself is not at fault in this particular instance.

 
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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2006, 03:25:31 AM »

By saying "This is a heretical, pagan idea that could replace, in the minds of many, the purely Darwinian concept of evolution." he seems to suggest that Darwinism itself is not at fault in this particular instance.

Please read more of this interview.

Quote
According to the consensus of the Orthodox holy fathers, the entire first created world--not only paradise--was incorrupt, without death. It was a totally different reality than what we know today. There was no pain, nor suffering, nor disease, nor sickness; all these things came into being through the fall.

When Christ died on the cross, He took upon Himself the sentence of sin, while being Himself totally sinless. By taking upon Himself the sentence of sin, which is death, He redeemed men from death. Thus, the idea of evolution over billions of years undermines not only the Patristic teaching of the creation and the first created world, but also the Orthodox understanding of redemption. It makes no sense to say that Christ died on the Cross to take away the sentence of sin, which is death, if you believe that the world is billions of years old. If the world is billions of years old and if the evolution of man from the swamp really occurred, there had to be millions of years of suffering, sickness death before man even came on the scene.

Thus I came to understand that, in order to uphold our Orthodox understanding of history and  theology, we have to have an answer to those who say that the world is billions of years old and that we have evolved from the swamp. If we do not have an answer, then we allow our theology to be undermined. We can say, “Well, why don’t we just believe in Orthodox theology but forget about the history, because what does history matter? The Bible doesn’t have to be literally true, we can believe that the world is billions of years old, and man descended from an ape, and at the same time believe in the theology of the Church.” This combination, however, is impossible, because our theology is rooted in history. Our understanding of man (Orthodox anthropology), of our salvation (soteriology), and of our ultimate end and purpose (eschatology), are all rooted in history: in real events that have happened or will happen.

According to Orthodox Patristic teaching, man was created incorrupt, endowed with the inward grace of God. He fell, lost this inward abiding of grace, and became subject to physical corruption and death. Christ the new Adam, the incarnate God, through His incarnation, death and resurrection, redeemed man from spiritual death, making it possible for man to have the inward dwelling of grace, and to one day to be resurrected in a new spiritual body. The future age will be like the first created world, but even greater than it, even more spiritual. It will be the world to which the first Adam was supposed to attain, but failed. The second Adam, Christ, has made this possible for man, and will bring into being this future age, restoring what was lost through the fall, bringing to fulfillment everything that man was supposed to become. So, all of these things—the first created world, the fall, the incarnation of God in Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection, the second coming of Christ, the general resurrection and beyond it—are rooted in time and history. We cannot divorce our theology from real events. We must believe as the holy fathers did, that these are not merely allegorical events that we read about in the book of Genesis. Sometimes the holy fathers give an allegorical interpretation to something in Genesis, like the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but they never deny its literal reality. If you read the holy fathers as Fr. Seraphim did, seeking to understand what they are saying, you will see that the holy fathers say that the things that we read about in Genesis are true just as they are written. We must understand them as such in order for our theology to be sound, and to protect ourselves against error and heresy.
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/enarticles/060222155510

The age of the earth is not something I am entirely certain of, but I do understand the implications of compromising Orthodoxy with the evolutionary understanding of man.

Peace.
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2006, 03:55:01 AM »

OK thats two different debates though. One about Darwinianism and another about neo-Paganism which departs from Darwinianism as well as Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2006, 09:07:28 AM »

The topic of evolutionary theory has been discussed many times before, but rarely its theological implications.
Oh balderdash Matthew!
You have started more threads about evolution on this forum which discuss it's theological implications than I've had CornFlakes for breakfast.
Why does this happen every Friday? It seems every Friday evening Australian time, I log on to the forum to find yet another thread started by you flogging yet another dead horse. Washington is currently 16 hours behind us, so what exactly are you doing at midnight on Thursdays that makes you want to post this stuff?
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2006, 01:46:38 PM »

OK thats two different debates though. One about Darwinianism and another about neo-Paganism which departs from Darwinianism as well as Orthodoxy.

When two diametrically opposed ideologies are synthesized, namely traditional patristic teaching and 19th century naturalism, the product is a corruption of both. If human nature isn't static, but is the result of an ongoing evolutionary development, then how can we say that the One who created man is static, or the Truth which He's revealed?

Peace.
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2006, 02:41:10 PM »

If human nature isn't static, but is the result of an ongoing evolutionary development, then how can we say that the One who created man is static, or the Truth which He's revealed?

Richard Swinburne, world's foremost philosopher of religion and an Orthodox Christian, says the theory of evolution is not incongruent with the Orthodox teaching of the creation of Ma. (Though this is just an aside in his monograph (Oxford University Press, 1989), not a matter he's especially insistent about.)

Human nature is static. But for long eons there were no humans and then, marking a strong line of division, there suddenly was a human. From him on we are the same in that we are responsible for our actions.

One of your most tired faults of reasoning here is assuming that evolution = Darwinism. All Christians who believe in the possibility of evolution reject some of the tenets of Darwinism. The term "Evolution" covers a fairly wide range of opinions, from Orthodox Christians to blind-survival of the fittest atheists to Raelians.
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2006, 02:43:10 PM »

The Holy Trinity is unchanging and beyond time and space. In the material universe however all things are subject to change. Jesus grew in wisdom and stature. That is he evolved from a baby to a man. The revealed truth about God also changed over time, it evolved from the faith of Abraham through the law of Moses, the teachings of the prophets, the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ and the faith of the early Church before the Church Fathers had reflected on the faith or the current Liturgies had been "evoved" out of their earlier versions.

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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2006, 10:57:20 PM »

Richard Swinburne, world's foremost philosopher of religion and an Orthodox Christian

Richard Swinburne is not a good example of Orthodoxy, especially if you disagree with his assessment that all religious experiences are essentially equal. Swinburne would be an example of an ecumenist, not a traditional Orthodox Christian.

But for long eons there were no humans and then, marking a strong line of division, there suddenly was a human.

A long period of stasis followed by the abrupt appearance of humankind would point to special creation, not evolution.

All Christians who believe in the possibility of evolution reject some of the tenets of Darwinism.

As already explained, the synthesis of Darwinian evolution with the Christian worldview leads to a corruption of both.

Peace.
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« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2006, 11:04:32 PM »

In the material universe however all things are subject to change. Jesus grew in wisdom and stature. That is he evolved from a baby to a man.

Please do not confuse evolution with physical development.

Quote
I wish to make very clear to you: I do not at all deny the fact of change and development in nature. That a full-grown man grows from an embryo; that a great tree grows from a small acorn; that new varieties of organisms are developed, whether the "races" of man or different kinds of cats and dogs and fruit trees-but all of this is not evolution: it is only variation within a definite kind or species; it does not prove or even suggest (unless you already believe this for non-scientific reasons) that one kind or species develops into another and that all present creatures are the product of such a development from one or a few primitive organisms).
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/evolution_frseraphim_kalomiros.aspx

The revealed truth about God also changed over time, it evolved from the faith of Abraham through the law of Moses, the teachings of the prophets, the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ and the faith of the early Church before the Church Fathers had reflected on the faith or the current Liturgies had been "evoved" out of their earlier versions.

It is inaccurate that the truth of God has changed or changes over time. Whenever God spoke to the Hebrews, it was Christ pre-incarnate. Through the centuries, God chose to reveal more and more of Himself, the same Truth which has existed from eternal past.

Peace.
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« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2006, 11:06:04 PM »

Quote
As already explained, the synthesis of Darwinian evolution with the Christian worldview leads to a corruption of both.

Milarkey,  I say.
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« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2006, 11:06:45 PM »

Milarkey,  I say.

Then please elaborate.
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« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2006, 11:16:13 PM »

Then please elaborate.
How about: "Milarkey, codswhollop, balderdash and fiddlesticks."
Why not review some of the umpteen responses you recieved on the umpteen other threads you started about this?"
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« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2006, 11:27:42 PM »

Why not review some of the umpteen responses you recieved on the umpteen other threads you started about this?"

According to the evolutionary understanding of man, we are the product of an ongoing natural devolopment. Humankind is perfectible, if only we take control of our own evolution. The patristic understanding of man is drastically dissimilar; that we were created uncorrupt out of the dust of the ground, fell from grace by defying the command of God, and have, since then, progressively become more polluted by the weight of our sins. One would be hard pressed to find two more conflicting worldviews.

Peace.
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« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2006, 11:32:21 PM »

You don't even have grasp of evolutionary theory...perfectible...control our own evolution? Are you reading this trash somewhere or just making it up?
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« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2006, 11:59:52 PM »

You don't even have grasp of evolutionary theory...perfectible...control our own evolution? Are you reading this trash somewhere or just making it up?
I think he's confusing the strange theories of the Jesuit Pierre Telliard de Chardin with the actual Theory of Evolution.
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« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2006, 12:01:34 AM »

You don't even have grasp of evolutionary theory...

I understand that there is a difference between biological evolution and evolutionary philosophy, but for all practical purposes, they are inseperable. I've studied biology and anthropology at the college level, so I do know what the purported evidences are for universal common descent. But the natural sciences are not objective, and evidence is meaningless without interpretation. The real question is whose understanding do you accept, 19th century naturalism or the patristic witness?  
Were we created out of dust, and made corrupt by human sin, or were we once Australopithecines, and have since attained a higher state of being?

Peace.
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« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2006, 12:08:22 AM »

I think he's confusing the strange theories of the Jesuit Pierre Telliard de Chardin with the actual Theory of Evolution.
But at least he got what he wanted: yet another thread about Evolution which will no doubt go on and on as long as the other ones did while people keep trying to explain to him why his "logic" makes no sense, and while he just goes on and on telling us that we simply "don't understand", or are not "Orthodox enough"....
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« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2006, 12:13:24 AM »

But at least he got what he wanted: yet another thread about Evolution which will no doubt go on and on as long as the other ones did while people keep trying to explain to him why his "logic" makes no sense, and while he just goes on and on telling us that we simply "don't understand", or are not "Orthodox enough"....

Please explain the Orthodox understanding of Creation and man in light of Western science's theory of evolution. Was Adam not made incorrupt? Did humanity not fall? Did Charles Darwin have a better understanding of the origin of the species than the fathers of the Church? What has Athens to do with Jerusalem?

Peace. 

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« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2006, 12:17:02 AM »

But at least he got what he wanted: yet another thread about Evolution which will no doubt go on and on as long as the other ones did ...

This thread won't go on and on if everyone joins my boycott of threads started by M777, or otherwise have a heavy M777 involvement...
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« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2006, 12:18:00 AM »

This thread won't go on and on if everyone joins my boycott of threads started by M777, or otherwise have a heavy M777 involvement...

Once again, the core issue can be ignored, that the merging of two diametrically opposed worldviews leads to a corruption of both. In the name of modernity and societal acceptance, we can compromise patristic theology, and let the fathers simply be dead, ignorant men.

Peace.
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« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2006, 12:20:17 AM »

But at least he got what he wanted: yet another thread about Evolution which will no doubt go on and on as long as the other ones did while people keep trying to explain to him why his "logic" makes no sense, and while he just goes on and on telling us that we simply "don't understand", or are not "Orthodox enough"....

You are right, ozgeorge. I almost took the whole bait.  Roll Eyes Almost lost my mind there.  Cheesy
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« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2006, 12:21:31 AM »

This thread won't go on and on if everyone joins my boycott of threads started by M777, or otherwise have a heavy M777 involvement...

Agreed...

Done!
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« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2006, 12:23:59 AM »

If you have no explanation of how two diametrically opposed worldviews, the patristic mind and 19th centural naturalism, are compatible, then please discontinue posting on this thread.

Peace.
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« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2006, 12:29:58 AM »

If you have no explanation of how two diametrically opposed worldviews, the patristic mind and 19th centural naturalism, are compatible, then please discontinue posting on this thread.

Peace.

Only opposed in your confused mind, lad.

And YOU don't TELL me to do anything here, got that?
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« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2006, 12:33:35 AM »

No matter how he baits you...the boycott must be in effect, otherwise we only encourage him to place posts that are even more inane and pointless (if that's at all possible) on this site.

Come, everyone! Join me in this boycott! Let's see how often M777 will post back-to-back posts on his 'own' threads!
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« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2006, 12:57:21 AM »

Well, just two things before I decide to boycott this one:

1.  A college level of evolution is not enough (you can't even get a good job on college level now).  You have to really involve yourself on a higher level of study in order to consider yourself qualified to reject the theory.  Otherwise, you're nothing but a youngin with not even a Bachelor's yet, let alone a Masters.

2.  We were not created incorrupt, we were created "in incorruption."  BIG DIFFERENCE!  All creation is essentially corruptible.

Otherwise, there really isn't anything to argue about.  I agree with others that this indeed has been dragged along and debated many times before.  Why troll?

God bless.

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« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2006, 01:34:14 AM »

Come, everyone! Join me in this boycott! Let's see how often M777 will post back-to-back posts on his 'own' threads!
Either that, or another thing to do is to keep hijacking his nonsensical threads, change the title and divert the discussion. That way, either the threads get split and the original core thread will be Matthew talking to himself and those he's managed to troll, or, if he keeps trying to bring the topic back on track, his posts will appear as isolated ignored posts in a "thread" full of posts which are completely unrelated to each other.
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« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2006, 02:11:14 AM »

Coconuts indeed.

I wanna see this movie http://300themovie.warnerbros.com/ . Who else does?

What were the official numbers of the Persian force, I've heard anywhere from 50,000 to 2 million........hmmmmmmm

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« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2006, 04:13:40 AM »

Why troll?

I don't see why this would even be an issue of contention among Orthodox Christians. If the patristic witness is superior to Western thought, why not just accept the patristic teaching and move on? If this truly were an Orthodox forum, the "troll" would be the one who attacks the living Tradition of the Church. Non-Orthodox Christians cannot receive communion, but Western scientists can modify the longstanding exegesis of Genesis, which is foundational to our soteriology?

Peace.
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« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2006, 04:20:20 AM »

Coconuts indeed.

I wanna see this movie http://300themovie.warnerbros.com/ . Who else does?

What were the official numbers of the Persian force, I've heard anywhere from 50,000 to 2 million........hmmmmmmm

Justinian Grin
Because of the graphics on the poster, I thought the title was "Zoo".
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« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2006, 04:27:25 AM »

We must follow the theological tradition of the Church, but the origin of man and his fall is where we must draw the line? Such thinking is when Orthodoxy becomes submissive to Western thought.
Stop thinking of this matter in Western terms. This is not Pat Robertson vs. the Board of Education. There is no "literal" nor "allegorical" interpretation of Genesis, there is only the patristic understanding.

Peace.
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« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2006, 04:30:33 AM »

Because of the graphics on the poster, I thought the title was "Zoo".

Zoo? What the hell kind of movie would that be??!!
And animal crackers do not belong in soup, they belong with milk.

Speaking of zoos and animal crackers, George, if I was too spend my college summer in Austrailia, what zoo would be a fine zoo to visit? Somthing near sydney preferably.
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« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2006, 04:35:57 AM »

Zoo? Why the hell kind of movie would that be??!!
And animal crackers do not belong in soup, they belong with milk.

Speaking of zoos and animal crackers, George, if I was too spend my college summer in Austrailia, what zoo would be a fine zoo to visit? Somthing near sydney preferably.
Taronga Zoo is Sydney's Zoo right on the Harbour. Make sure you go on one of the "Night Walks" through the Zoo to observe the nocturnal furry friends. Start with a harbour cruise with plenty of champagne and nibbles and follow up with a late opera at the Sydney Opera House (with plenty of champagne and nibbles).
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« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2006, 04:42:07 AM »

If this were Saint Euphrosynos Cafe, I doubt that one would be ridiculed for defending the patristic understanding of Genesis.

Peace.
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« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2006, 04:45:24 AM »

Taronga Zoo is Sydney's Zoo right on the Harbour. Make sure you go on one of the "Night Walks" through the Zoo to observe the nocturnal furry friends. Start with a harbour cruise with plenty of champagne and nibbles and follow up with a late opera at the Sydney Opera House (with plenty of champagne and nibbles).

Hmm, I'm thinking maybe I should go between winter and spring quarters instead of Summer, expedia.com says its sweltering during the summer. We also have "a night walk" here at the Seattle zoo, with vampire bats and other fluffly but disgusting friends. Do you guys have a thing like we do with the Public Transportation like we do, where you can give the bus driver 5 bucks (or equivalent with Aussi money) and get a little ticket that lets you bus around for the whole day.
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« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2006, 04:58:20 AM »

Do you guys have a thing like we do with the Public Transportation like we do, where you can give the bus driver 5 bucks (or equivalent with Aussi money) and get a little ticket that lets you bus around for the whole day.
What you want is the "DayTripper" ticket, this will give you all day unlimited travel on trains, buses and ferries throughout Sydney.
The cost is:
Adult      $15.40
Child      $7.70
See: http://www.cityrail.info/fares/leisure_tickets.jsp#DayTripper
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« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2006, 05:09:09 AM »

What you want is the "DayTripper" ticket, this will give you all day unlimited travel on trains, buses and ferries throughout Sydney.
The cost is:
Adult      $15.40
Child      $7.70
See: http://www.cityrail.info/fares/leisure_tickets.jsp#DayTripper

Now that right there is nifty. Seattle, you only can go on the bus, no monorail, no ferry, just bus...lame. I am actually considering this....I planned to go to mount athos last year, but I went with a couple cousins to Dublin, I don't recall how that actually happened..ha..

No leprechauns in Ireland though, Lucky Charms tho, cheap lucky charms, in Seattle Lucky Charms cost 6.75! for the small box! outrageous if you ask me, but in Ireland where they were cheap, to ya know, overcome the dissapointement of no leprechauns...How much do they cost in Aussi land? or any other land from any other member who wishes to discuss lucky charms.
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« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2006, 05:14:51 AM »

Now that right there is nifty. Seattle, you only can go on the bus, no monorail, no ferry, just bus...lame. I am actually considering this....I planned to go to mount athos last year, but I went with a couple cousins to Dublin, I don't recall how that actually happened..ha..

No leprechauns in Ireland though, Lucky Charms tho, cheap lucky charms, in Seattle Lucky Charms cost 6.75! for the small box! outrageous if you ask me, but in Ireland where they were cheap, to ya know, overcome the dissapointement of no leprechauns...How much do they cost in Aussi land? or any other land from any other member who wishes to discuss lucky charms.
But distances in the universe are measured in Light Years, not Lucky Charms. And as far as I know, Vodka and Red Bull is the breakfast of champions.
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« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2006, 05:15:20 AM »

There is nothing more to be discussed.

CONSTANTINE CAVARNOS
BIOLOGICAL EVOLUTIONISM
http://www.orthodoxwebsite.com/Documents/biological_evolutionism.htm

Peace.
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« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2006, 05:22:35 AM »

Constantly Cavernous are the Jenolan caves.
http://www.jenolancaves.org.au/
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« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2006, 05:25:14 AM »

But distances in the universe are measured in Light Years, not Lucky Charms. And as far as I know, Vodka and Red Bull is the breakfast of champions.

Its pretty cheap to go down under, cheaper then going to Europe, this package looks nice:http://www.expedia.com/pub/agent.dll?itid=0&itdx=&itty=&ecid= Thats like a grand less then the mediterranean,my hiogh school trip to central europe was 3500!

Vodka and red bull...............now you sound like the guys at my church,vodka and specifically stoli vodka, always stolichnaya, stolichnaya, stolichnaya, I am sick of stolichnaya! Thats my convert problem with the Russians, heaven forbid they ever keep a nice aged bottle of whiskey around.................
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« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2006, 05:31:14 AM »

Whiskey and RedBull just doesn't sound the same. We call Vodka and RedBull here a "Pulse".
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« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2006, 05:46:20 AM »

Whiskey and RedBull just doesn't sound the same. We call Vodka and RedBull here a "Pulse".

Why does the red bull have to be involved. I think Coca cola has every right to butt in. Coke and Jack that what I say. And besides, Red Bull sucks! (Also, when i was up in North Seattle, the bartender referred to it as a "Pulse" also).

"...and Achilles, immortal man, immortal body except he had an Achilles heel.
What an irony.'You mean I'm called Achilles, Mum,and I have an Achilles heel as well? I'll be a laughing stock.Oh, bloody hell.' Achilles must have gone into battle like this. 'Get off! Get off the heel, get off!'The Trojans with crabs and lobsters...'Get them on his heel.'
'No, not the crabs and lobsters! Aah! Aah!' If I was Achilles, I'd put my foot
in a block of concrete. For starters.Then ptoo, ptoo, ptoo - arrows shooting off everywhere. 'Ha-ha-ha-ha! Block of concrete. No problem at all. See these swords here? Thbpth! No problem.' Wa-oo, wa-oo, wa-oo! 'Ha-ha-ha-ha.' The slight downside -
he'd have a maximum radius after that.'Could you come over here, please?
Could you come over here? Could you come over here, please?
I've got something to show you. I can't show you unless you come over here. Damn.'
He'd have to put wheels on the block of concrete. (Squeaks)" -Eddie Izzard

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« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2006, 08:42:19 AM »

I wanna see this movie http://300themovie.warnerbros.com/ . Who else does?

What's with the "fighting miters" helmets?
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« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2006, 08:44:43 AM »

Whiskey and RedBull just doesn't sound the same. We call Vodka and RedBull here a "Pulse".

I call it "something nobody over twenty-five would be stupid enough to drink". I'll take my Old Sheep Dip thank you; or if I want to drink alone, my Laphroaig. (I like Islay malts.)
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« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2006, 09:50:06 AM »

I call it "something nobody over twenty-five would be stupid enough to drink".
Well, there was this party you see....My Nieces' 21st Birthday....
....OK, so I was stupid enough.......
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« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2006, 12:23:44 PM »

Constantly Cavernous are the Jenolan caves.
http://www.jenolancaves.org.au/

Those are some Really Neat caves!  Thanks for the link.  I got to see a bit about them before their database had a fit.  ( I hope I didn't break it.  Wink  )

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« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2006, 12:29:05 PM »

Sorry about that, Chief.


Ebor
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« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2006, 12:39:48 PM »

instead fo trying to voice my own opinion on the subject, what is the Church's view and stand on Darwinian Evolution and what of modern interpretation on evolutionary theory?

I was raiused to believe in a seven dayuy dcreation and the Earth to be roughly 6,000 years old. I always thought this to be a bit questionable but I accepted it due to the ages of those in Genesis. The only room for question was the date of 4004 bc. would be the date of the expulsion from the Garden. I always questioned how ong were they in the Garden for.

So, if someone could please fill me in on the Orthodox Church's stand on this I would be greatly appreciated.

Blessings,
Panagiotis
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« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2006, 04:04:34 PM »

OK; this actually isn't a violation of the boycott because Pangiotis is a relatively new member and he sincerely asked questions (besides, his posts are very good, and the face of the Sr. GM shines upon him... Smiley )

Anyway, the thread 'Evolution and Orthodoxy' from the Faith forum about a year ago was of interest. You will note that M777 participated in that one a little, but still he apparently felt the need to dwell upon this question:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,7149.0.html

Running 'evolution' in the Search function here will also pull up interesting threads, but also will display every time someone used the word 'evolution'. It's still interesting to pursue every thread and the use of this word. However, I'm one of those people who like to just randomly open encyclopedias and read what comes up, so my idea of 'fun' may not be shared by all.
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« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2006, 04:29:55 PM »

THank you, Chris! Informative and small too! Easy to read.
Blessings to you o the smiling down upon me. lol

Now I guess the thread can return now to boycott then.

Lord Bless you and Keep you,
Panagiotis
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« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2006, 02:19:31 AM »

If you desire the truly Orthodox understanding of Genesis, seek the consensus of the fathers of the Church. Anything else would be a recent invention. It is also worth noting that modern church fathers have written at length in defense of the traditional Orthodox understanding, in direct opposition to evolutionary theory.

Peace.
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« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2006, 03:09:36 AM »

James 1:8
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

The product of cognitive dissonance is spiritual and psychological instability. When Western science forms conclusions in direct opposition to Scripture and Tradition, we have the right as Orthodox Christians to disagree.

Peace.
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« Reply #54 on: October 26, 2006, 12:00:25 PM »

I am sory this subject is under boycot, I would like to discuss it. It is a mystery to me why those who are exasperated by it don't simply ignore the thread.
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« Reply #55 on: October 26, 2006, 01:19:52 PM »

I am sory this subject is under boycot, I would like to discuss it. It is a mystery to me why those who are exasperated by it don't simply ignore the thread.

Hedley,

Unfortunately, it's because many of us have become frustrated by the way discussions engendered by M777 just seem to travel round and round and round with no logical thrust or purpose.  Just check out his many posts to see what I mean.  (Go to his profile and click on "show the last posts of this person.") 

I don't know if others feel this way, but I have experienced similar frustration regarding discussions surrounding evolution in general on this board.  There are plenty of old threads you can find here to look into it for yourself.  The topic has been looked at quite a lot over the last few months.  Some discussion was, I think, very stimulating and interesting, and some was aimless and pointless.

Bob James
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« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2006, 01:39:22 PM »

I am sory this subject is under boycot, I would like to discuss it. It is a mystery to me why those who are exasperated by it don't simply ignore the thread.

The boycott was initiated for the following reasons:

1. This topic has been done, literally, to death. Every one of these threads discusses evolution:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,7920.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,7149.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,7831.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,7497.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5707.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5786.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5744.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5734.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8428.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8457.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9556.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8672.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5431.0.html


These are just the first few that come to mind; there are many others.

2. You will note that most of these threads have a preponderance of posts from one particular individual. This individual combines the attributes of being unable to learn new concepts with the inability to create thoughtful posts as well as a desperate tenacity to ineffectually prove any point.

3. Finally, just because I have initiated the boycott and others have agreed that this boycott is needed, does not in any way force you to join the boycott. You may continue to try to thoughtfully dscuss this topic, although by doing so you may expose yourself to that particular poster. For the sake of my sanity, I initiated this boycott as repeated exposure to a certain poster was causing deleterious effects in my composure as well as intruding on my dreams (no, I'm not kidding).

So, post at your own risk---if you so dare.

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« Reply #57 on: October 26, 2006, 03:37:12 PM »

http://upload4.postimage.org/168685/bunny_pancake.jpg
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« Reply #58 on: October 26, 2006, 05:06:08 PM »

Leaping Lizards!!  I had not heard of this new threat or menace or whatever it is.  What else will so be wearing pancakes?

Ebor
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« Reply #59 on: October 26, 2006, 06:05:34 PM »

I am sory this subject is under boycot, I would like to discuss it. It is a mystery to me why those who are exasperated by it don't simply ignore the thread.

I too would enjoy discussing this subject, amongst others that are under boycott...however, debating with certain people is comprable to banging your head against a brick wall. Thus I have slowly and reluctantly joining the boycott...after all, my head is getting a bit sore from that brick wall. If you have a topic that you really want to discuss, consider starting your own thread, rather than laching on to a boycotted one.
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« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2006, 06:27:29 PM »

Look, it's a leprechaun!!
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« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2006, 06:29:56 PM »

Leaping Lizards!!  I had not heard of this new threat or menace or whatever it is.  What else will so be wearing pancakes?

There seems to be no limit to how far this will go.....It's truly astonishing and outrageous.  Shocked
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« Reply #62 on: October 26, 2006, 06:31:14 PM »

It's truly astonishing and outrageous.    Shocked

Was it bunnies wearing pancakes in 18th Century Russia?  No, it was not!  Is outrage!
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« Reply #63 on: October 26, 2006, 06:36:35 PM »

Was it bunnies wearing pancakes in 18th Century Russia?  No, it was not!  Is outrage!

You are found to be making correct assertion regarding heterodox rabbit!  What is to be coming next?  Frogs singing broadway melodies?   Shocked
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« Reply #64 on: October 26, 2006, 07:21:04 PM »

You are found to be making correct assertion regarding heterodox rabbit!  What is to be coming next?  Frogs singing broadway melodies?   Shocked

You had to ask....  Grin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saU-Bl0feSs

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« Reply #65 on: October 26, 2006, 07:23:13 PM »

Equal Rights For Pancake Wearing Bunnies Now!

http://www.angryalien.com/0604/titanicbunnies.html
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« Reply #66 on: October 26, 2006, 09:30:39 PM »

You had to ask....  Grin

A true classic of its genre!   Grin
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« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2006, 09:31:45 PM »

Equal Rights For Pancake Wearing Bunnies Now!

As loathe as I am to admit it, I have to say that you make a compelling argument for their case here.....
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« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2006, 09:42:04 PM »

Actually, I don't think that bunny is wearing a pancake.  I think he is wearing bliny!   Rabbit stew with bliny...I'm getting hungry and getting an idea for Sunday dinner.   Cheesy
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« Reply #69 on: October 28, 2006, 04:04:34 PM »

Actually, I don't think that bunny is wearing a pancake.  I think he is wearing bliny!   Rabbit stew with bliny...I'm getting hungry and getting an idea for Sunday dinner.   Cheesy

Whoa!   Shocked   Now there's a whole new twist on this that I hadn't even considered.....
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« Reply #70 on: October 28, 2006, 04:12:47 PM »

Stefatho? Yummy...
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« Reply #71 on: October 29, 2006, 03:10:25 AM »

Please allow me to qualify that this thread is not at all intended to promote young earth creationism. I am not a young earther, and I find young earth belief to be just as unsatisfying, if not more so, than evolution. You might think that I have an unwillingness to learn, but that is not true. I consider myself a freethinker, and could not live any other way. I'm sorry if I've ever sounded otherwise. We cannot love God with all our minds if we refuse to keep our minds open.

Peace.
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« Reply #72 on: October 29, 2006, 11:16:59 PM »

After Bazaar and 4 beers today I went to Cold Stone, and it was divine........has anyone been, I had such a hard time picking theres was soo many kinds, so I got the bubble gum one in the form of a milshake, imagine, a bubblegum ice cream milk shake, the things they come up with.............didn't sit right with the rolling rock though, went home took a nap for an hour, everything was cool after that, then I went down and got a Kid's Cusine, I had the most unusual craving for a Kid's Cusine, so now here I am doing French homework, eating a Kid's Cusine, contemplating if I should go buy another one...........
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« Reply #73 on: October 29, 2006, 11:30:45 PM »

What is a Kid's Cuisine?Huh

Coldstone is AMAZING.  I like how the white chocolate one with gummi bears tastes like rum....
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« Reply #74 on: October 29, 2006, 11:43:58 PM »

You have never heard of Kid Cusine!!! Sigh, my poor sheltered friend: http://www.ray3dzone.com/kc.html

And gummy bears taste horrible, that is not up for discussion, it is bone-hard scientific fact....
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« Reply #75 on: October 30, 2006, 12:04:20 AM »

Ew ew ew ew ew! My parents used to make us eat those when we were little and had a baby sitter! I cannot stand those! It's like prison food or something!

Gummy bears are amazing.  You don't know what you are talking about.  Probably it is your inferior public-school education, can't compare with our superior Jesuit institution here at SU....
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« Reply #76 on: October 30, 2006, 12:18:00 AM »

Now that was just uncalled for Zebu..........UW is just as "special", my English teacher told us so, everyone is the best at everything!

And I have wondered out into my dorm's courtyard with my labtop, and theres is a guy who fell asleep and is snoring, and snoring drives me mad, hes about to get kicked in the face..........
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« Reply #77 on: October 30, 2006, 12:39:31 AM »

Psh...But everyone knows that a liberal education is the foundation of all knowledge, and that you public vocational education was originally intended for slaves! Therefore, you are a slave. HA!  See how Jesuits are better....

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« Reply #78 on: October 30, 2006, 12:43:53 AM »

At UW we have a superb liberal education, I mean, our psychology professor made it in David Horowitz's new book "Dangerous Professors". Quite liberal I say. And everyone knows that Jesuits are really Freemason Zionist Jews in cassocks.......... Cheesy
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« Reply #79 on: October 30, 2006, 12:56:21 AM »

GOSH! The world "liberal" in "liberal education" comes from the world "libre" meaning, "free" as in a free, or un-enslaved man.  Shows how much UW taught you! 

Actually, pretty much all of them have dropped the charade of cassocks.  Cheesy  One of my profs says Jesus didn't exist even as a historical person! Apparently we stole our entire religion from Mithraism. At the same time God ordered the world in unchanging eternal and divine laws, which are reflected in human and natural laws.  But God evolves.  Makes total sense, no?
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« Reply #80 on: October 30, 2006, 01:01:56 AM »

Quote
GOSH! The world "liberal" in "liberal education" comes from the world "libre" meaning, "free" as in a free, or un-enslaved man.  Shows how much UW taught you!
So, how many here are Libertarians?
Show of hands?
Okay, me and... Who else?
*not a political deturrent, just a joke.

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« Reply #81 on: October 30, 2006, 01:18:19 AM »

GOSH! The world "liberal" in "liberal education" comes from the world "libre" meaning, "free" as in a free, or un-enslaved man.  Shows how much UW taught you! 

Actually, pretty much all of them have dropped the charade of cassocks.  Cheesy  One of my profs says Jesus didn't exist even as a historical person! Apparently we stole our entire religion from Mithraism. At the same time God ordered the world in unchanging eternal and divine laws, which are reflected in human and natural laws.  But God evolves.  Makes total sense, no?

One of professors told us the way religon was invented, Is that when we were evolving, our skulls got bigger, so our brains got bigger, and we nothing to do, so being bored, we made up religon. Then she showed us a video from a guy at UCLA who backed her up. It was the stupidest thing I ever heard. I mean how many animals out there have bigger brains then us?
I just know no UCLA graduate school for me.............I'm thinking University of Rochester................but I have to learn German, eh........then I went to my English class with my professor from Perdue, who told us to do a in-class writing on how to make a peanut butter sandwich.......

And also, these clergy such as Jesuits, Bishops etc, who do not believe in Jesus or a strict sense of morality, what is the point of being celibate for them?
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« Reply #82 on: October 30, 2006, 01:20:50 AM »

So, how many here are Libertarians?
Show of hands?
Okay, me and... Who else?
*not a political deturrent, just a joke.

Christ is in our midst,
Panagiotis

You need to change the title! Jeeeze..............
Also I'm eating Ivars clam chowder right now, Im a pig............but you.....envy.........yea of course
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« Reply #83 on: October 30, 2006, 01:40:34 AM »

I have the an excerpt from this song stuck in my head, we sing it in French, thank god we are learning a new one on wednesday................
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« Reply #84 on: October 30, 2006, 01:50:26 AM »

Vos profs ne peuvent pas enseigner! HAHA! Nous ne chantons pas a l'universite de Seattle.  Nous apprenons des choses importantes, par exemple: les femmes sont des fautes et elles sont stupides.  Les femmes sont degoutants, lol.

But...ARE they celibate?  Shocked
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« Reply #85 on: October 30, 2006, 02:09:45 AM »

Blah, jesuites parlent francais comme des porcs! Francais de porc il est!

Chevaliers de la table ronde
Goutons voir si le vin est bon!
We clap while singing this! Smiley



Zebu,
Vos jesuites sont des chauvins!
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« Reply #86 on: October 30, 2006, 02:16:45 AM »

Meh...les jesuites sont stupides.  Tu as raison! Cheesy  Mais SU n'est pas comme Evergreen State...Nous somes pires, lol.

Mais oui, les jesuits n'ont pas besoin des femmes, seulement des garcons, lol.


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« Reply #87 on: October 30, 2006, 02:26:29 AM »

Meh...les jesuites sont stupides.  Tu as raison! Cheesy  Mais SU n'est pas comme Evergreen State...Nous somes pires, lol.

Mais oui, les jesuits n'ont pas besoin des femmes, seulement des garcons, lol. 

Slam sur les jesuites

Evergreen est tres boiteux! M777 s'occupe du la.................

Changer l'espion de jesuite de titre!
« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 02:29:27 AM by Justinian » Logged

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« Reply #88 on: October 30, 2006, 02:31:44 AM »

Good people,
When I suggested a way of dealing with this thread, I had no idea that I would one day be moderating the forum in which it is contained! Oh the poetic justice!
Just two points:

1) Could we just be a bit careful about the subject titles we choose for our posts and their content no matter what language we are speaking?
2) Do you know about the friendly banter on the "Random Postings" thread? It is the longest thread on OCnet and is up to 99 pages. Serb1389 has called dibs on being the first to post on page 100, but perhaps someone may beat him to it.
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« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2006, 02:39:51 AM »

Justinian-  Quoi?? Je m'y perds...

Ozgeorge- Sorry.... Sad
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« Reply #90 on: October 30, 2006, 02:51:32 AM »

Isn't there a rule against spam postings?
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« Reply #91 on: October 30, 2006, 02:56:21 AM »

Good people,
When I suggested a way of dealing with this thread, I had no idea that I would one day be moderating the forum in which it is contained! Oh the poetic justice!
Just two points:

1) Could we just be a bit careful about the subject titles we choose for our posts and their content no matter what language we are speaking?
2) Do you know about the friendly banter on the "Random Postings" thread? It is the longest thread on OCnet and is up to 99 pages. Serb1389 has called dibs on being the first to post on page 100, but perhaps someone may beat him to it.

Mais d'excuses George
Nous etions plaisanterie. Vous parler francais?
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« Reply #92 on: October 30, 2006, 02:59:02 AM »

Isn't there a rule against spam postings?

Vous aimez Cold Stone?
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« Reply #93 on: October 30, 2006, 03:03:30 AM »

Justinian-  Quoi?? Je m'y perds...

Ozgeorge- Sorry.... Sad
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« Reply #94 on: October 30, 2006, 03:11:12 AM »

OK guys, I'm locking this thread pending discussion with the other mods.
It's turning into another "Random Postings" thread (which we already have), and contains some objectional posts.
I'm happy to split the thread and join the "Random Posts" to the already existing "Random Posts" thread if this is possible.
I will discuss this with the other moderators, and anyone who wants to input into how this may be done can pm me.


ADDIT: It has now been 5 days since this thread was locked and no one has offered any input as to how they would like to see it managed. So following discussion with the other moderators, this thread will remain permanently locked.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 02:02:59 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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