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Author Topic: Darwinian Evolution: The Beginning of Heresy  (Read 11588 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 20, 2006, 03:13:33 AM »

The topic of evolutionary theory has been discussed many times before, but rarely its theological implications. In the epilogue to Genesis, Creation and Early Man, Father Demascene explains how the mixing of Darwinism with the religious mind leads to the heresies of New Ageism.

In an interview, Father Damascene discussed this reality:

Quote
Even if Darwinistic evolution becomes outdated, there is still the danger, coming from those who do not believe in the Christian God, of a rejection of the purely Darwinian concept of evolution—that everything came from natural causes—and the embracing of a pseudo-spiritual evolution: the kind of spiritual evolution that we find in the Theosophy of Madame Blavatsky and Alice Bailey, the Anthroposophy of Rudolf Steiner, the writings of Teilhard de Chardin, the Kaballah, the New Age movement, etc. According to this teaching of spiritual evolution, God is identified with the creation, and the creation is seen as evolving to Divinity. This is a heretical, pagan idea that could replace, in the minds of many, the purely Darwinian concept of evolution. Proponents of the New Age in America, such as Ken Wilber, say that “evolutionary spirituality” is the “cutting edge” of the new religious consciousness. This is the spirituality of Antichrist.
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/enarticles/060222155510


Certain Orthodox men of prominence are eager to explain how Darwinian evolution, despite its many incongruencies with the patristic witness, is compatible with the Orthodox faith. However, these seem to be the same who most embrace the ecumenical movement, and thus fail to see the consequences of when Orthodox Tradition is compromised in the name of modernity.

Peace.
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2006, 03:20:43 AM »

Father Damascene seems actually to be saying that those who depart from Darwinian belief "that everything came from natural causes" are the problem. By saying "This is a heretical, pagan idea that could replace, in the minds of many, the purely Darwinian concept of evolution." he seems to suggest that Darwinism itself is not at fault in this particular instance.

 
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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2006, 03:25:31 AM »

By saying "This is a heretical, pagan idea that could replace, in the minds of many, the purely Darwinian concept of evolution." he seems to suggest that Darwinism itself is not at fault in this particular instance.

Please read more of this interview.

Quote
According to the consensus of the Orthodox holy fathers, the entire first created world--not only paradise--was incorrupt, without death. It was a totally different reality than what we know today. There was no pain, nor suffering, nor disease, nor sickness; all these things came into being through the fall.

When Christ died on the cross, He took upon Himself the sentence of sin, while being Himself totally sinless. By taking upon Himself the sentence of sin, which is death, He redeemed men from death. Thus, the idea of evolution over billions of years undermines not only the Patristic teaching of the creation and the first created world, but also the Orthodox understanding of redemption. It makes no sense to say that Christ died on the Cross to take away the sentence of sin, which is death, if you believe that the world is billions of years old. If the world is billions of years old and if the evolution of man from the swamp really occurred, there had to be millions of years of suffering, sickness death before man even came on the scene.

Thus I came to understand that, in order to uphold our Orthodox understanding of history and  theology, we have to have an answer to those who say that the world is billions of years old and that we have evolved from the swamp. If we do not have an answer, then we allow our theology to be undermined. We can say, “Well, why don’t we just believe in Orthodox theology but forget about the history, because what does history matter? The Bible doesn’t have to be literally true, we can believe that the world is billions of years old, and man descended from an ape, and at the same time believe in the theology of the Church.” This combination, however, is impossible, because our theology is rooted in history. Our understanding of man (Orthodox anthropology), of our salvation (soteriology), and of our ultimate end and purpose (eschatology), are all rooted in history: in real events that have happened or will happen.

According to Orthodox Patristic teaching, man was created incorrupt, endowed with the inward grace of God. He fell, lost this inward abiding of grace, and became subject to physical corruption and death. Christ the new Adam, the incarnate God, through His incarnation, death and resurrection, redeemed man from spiritual death, making it possible for man to have the inward dwelling of grace, and to one day to be resurrected in a new spiritual body. The future age will be like the first created world, but even greater than it, even more spiritual. It will be the world to which the first Adam was supposed to attain, but failed. The second Adam, Christ, has made this possible for man, and will bring into being this future age, restoring what was lost through the fall, bringing to fulfillment everything that man was supposed to become. So, all of these things—the first created world, the fall, the incarnation of God in Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection, the second coming of Christ, the general resurrection and beyond it—are rooted in time and history. We cannot divorce our theology from real events. We must believe as the holy fathers did, that these are not merely allegorical events that we read about in the book of Genesis. Sometimes the holy fathers give an allegorical interpretation to something in Genesis, like the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but they never deny its literal reality. If you read the holy fathers as Fr. Seraphim did, seeking to understand what they are saying, you will see that the holy fathers say that the things that we read about in Genesis are true just as they are written. We must understand them as such in order for our theology to be sound, and to protect ourselves against error and heresy.
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/enarticles/060222155510

The age of the earth is not something I am entirely certain of, but I do understand the implications of compromising Orthodoxy with the evolutionary understanding of man.

Peace.
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2006, 03:55:01 AM »

OK thats two different debates though. One about Darwinianism and another about neo-Paganism which departs from Darwinianism as well as Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2006, 09:07:28 AM »

The topic of evolutionary theory has been discussed many times before, but rarely its theological implications.
Oh balderdash Matthew!
You have started more threads about evolution on this forum which discuss it's theological implications than I've had CornFlakes for breakfast.
Why does this happen every Friday? It seems every Friday evening Australian time, I log on to the forum to find yet another thread started by you flogging yet another dead horse. Washington is currently 16 hours behind us, so what exactly are you doing at midnight on Thursdays that makes you want to post this stuff?
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2006, 01:46:38 PM »

OK thats two different debates though. One about Darwinianism and another about neo-Paganism which departs from Darwinianism as well as Orthodoxy.

When two diametrically opposed ideologies are synthesized, namely traditional patristic teaching and 19th century naturalism, the product is a corruption of both. If human nature isn't static, but is the result of an ongoing evolutionary development, then how can we say that the One who created man is static, or the Truth which He's revealed?

Peace.
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2006, 02:41:10 PM »

If human nature isn't static, but is the result of an ongoing evolutionary development, then how can we say that the One who created man is static, or the Truth which He's revealed?

Richard Swinburne, world's foremost philosopher of religion and an Orthodox Christian, says the theory of evolution is not incongruent with the Orthodox teaching of the creation of Ma. (Though this is just an aside in his monograph (Oxford University Press, 1989), not a matter he's especially insistent about.)

Human nature is static. But for long eons there were no humans and then, marking a strong line of division, there suddenly was a human. From him on we are the same in that we are responsible for our actions.

One of your most tired faults of reasoning here is assuming that evolution = Darwinism. All Christians who believe in the possibility of evolution reject some of the tenets of Darwinism. The term "Evolution" covers a fairly wide range of opinions, from Orthodox Christians to blind-survival of the fittest atheists to Raelians.
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2006, 02:43:10 PM »

The Holy Trinity is unchanging and beyond time and space. In the material universe however all things are subject to change. Jesus grew in wisdom and stature. That is he evolved from a baby to a man. The revealed truth about God also changed over time, it evolved from the faith of Abraham through the law of Moses, the teachings of the prophets, the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ and the faith of the early Church before the Church Fathers had reflected on the faith or the current Liturgies had been "evoved" out of their earlier versions.

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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2006, 10:57:20 PM »

Richard Swinburne, world's foremost philosopher of religion and an Orthodox Christian

Richard Swinburne is not a good example of Orthodoxy, especially if you disagree with his assessment that all religious experiences are essentially equal. Swinburne would be an example of an ecumenist, not a traditional Orthodox Christian.

But for long eons there were no humans and then, marking a strong line of division, there suddenly was a human.

A long period of stasis followed by the abrupt appearance of humankind would point to special creation, not evolution.

All Christians who believe in the possibility of evolution reject some of the tenets of Darwinism.

As already explained, the synthesis of Darwinian evolution with the Christian worldview leads to a corruption of both.

Peace.
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« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2006, 11:04:32 PM »

In the material universe however all things are subject to change. Jesus grew in wisdom and stature. That is he evolved from a baby to a man.

Please do not confuse evolution with physical development.

Quote
I wish to make very clear to you: I do not at all deny the fact of change and development in nature. That a full-grown man grows from an embryo; that a great tree grows from a small acorn; that new varieties of organisms are developed, whether the "races" of man or different kinds of cats and dogs and fruit trees-but all of this is not evolution: it is only variation within a definite kind or species; it does not prove or even suggest (unless you already believe this for non-scientific reasons) that one kind or species develops into another and that all present creatures are the product of such a development from one or a few primitive organisms).
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/evolution_frseraphim_kalomiros.aspx

The revealed truth about God also changed over time, it evolved from the faith of Abraham through the law of Moses, the teachings of the prophets, the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ and the faith of the early Church before the Church Fathers had reflected on the faith or the current Liturgies had been "evoved" out of their earlier versions.

It is inaccurate that the truth of God has changed or changes over time. Whenever God spoke to the Hebrews, it was Christ pre-incarnate. Through the centuries, God chose to reveal more and more of Himself, the same Truth which has existed from eternal past.

Peace.
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« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2006, 11:06:04 PM »

Quote
As already explained, the synthesis of Darwinian evolution with the Christian worldview leads to a corruption of both.

Milarkey,  I say.
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« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2006, 11:06:45 PM »

Milarkey,  I say.

Then please elaborate.
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« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2006, 11:16:13 PM »

Then please elaborate.
How about: "Milarkey, codswhollop, balderdash and fiddlesticks."
Why not review some of the umpteen responses you recieved on the umpteen other threads you started about this?"
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« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2006, 11:27:42 PM »

Why not review some of the umpteen responses you recieved on the umpteen other threads you started about this?"

According to the evolutionary understanding of man, we are the product of an ongoing natural devolopment. Humankind is perfectible, if only we take control of our own evolution. The patristic understanding of man is drastically dissimilar; that we were created uncorrupt out of the dust of the ground, fell from grace by defying the command of God, and have, since then, progressively become more polluted by the weight of our sins. One would be hard pressed to find two more conflicting worldviews.

Peace.
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« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2006, 11:32:21 PM »

You don't even have grasp of evolutionary theory...perfectible...control our own evolution? Are you reading this trash somewhere or just making it up?
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« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2006, 11:59:52 PM »

You don't even have grasp of evolutionary theory...perfectible...control our own evolution? Are you reading this trash somewhere or just making it up?
I think he's confusing the strange theories of the Jesuit Pierre Telliard de Chardin with the actual Theory of Evolution.
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« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2006, 12:01:34 AM »

You don't even have grasp of evolutionary theory...

I understand that there is a difference between biological evolution and evolutionary philosophy, but for all practical purposes, they are inseperable. I've studied biology and anthropology at the college level, so I do know what the purported evidences are for universal common descent. But the natural sciences are not objective, and evidence is meaningless without interpretation. The real question is whose understanding do you accept, 19th century naturalism or the patristic witness?  
Were we created out of dust, and made corrupt by human sin, or were we once Australopithecines, and have since attained a higher state of being?

Peace.
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« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2006, 12:08:22 AM »

I think he's confusing the strange theories of the Jesuit Pierre Telliard de Chardin with the actual Theory of Evolution.
But at least he got what he wanted: yet another thread about Evolution which will no doubt go on and on as long as the other ones did while people keep trying to explain to him why his "logic" makes no sense, and while he just goes on and on telling us that we simply "don't understand", or are not "Orthodox enough"....
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« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2006, 12:13:24 AM »

But at least he got what he wanted: yet another thread about Evolution which will no doubt go on and on as long as the other ones did while people keep trying to explain to him why his "logic" makes no sense, and while he just goes on and on telling us that we simply "don't understand", or are not "Orthodox enough"....

Please explain the Orthodox understanding of Creation and man in light of Western science's theory of evolution. Was Adam not made incorrupt? Did humanity not fall? Did Charles Darwin have a better understanding of the origin of the species than the fathers of the Church? What has Athens to do with Jerusalem?

Peace. 

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« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2006, 12:17:02 AM »

But at least he got what he wanted: yet another thread about Evolution which will no doubt go on and on as long as the other ones did ...

This thread won't go on and on if everyone joins my boycott of threads started by M777, or otherwise have a heavy M777 involvement...
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« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2006, 12:18:00 AM »

This thread won't go on and on if everyone joins my boycott of threads started by M777, or otherwise have a heavy M777 involvement...

Once again, the core issue can be ignored, that the merging of two diametrically opposed worldviews leads to a corruption of both. In the name of modernity and societal acceptance, we can compromise patristic theology, and let the fathers simply be dead, ignorant men.

Peace.
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« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2006, 12:20:17 AM »

But at least he got what he wanted: yet another thread about Evolution which will no doubt go on and on as long as the other ones did while people keep trying to explain to him why his "logic" makes no sense, and while he just goes on and on telling us that we simply "don't understand", or are not "Orthodox enough"....

You are right, ozgeorge. I almost took the whole bait.  Roll Eyes Almost lost my mind there.  Cheesy
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« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2006, 12:21:31 AM »

This thread won't go on and on if everyone joins my boycott of threads started by M777, or otherwise have a heavy M777 involvement...

Agreed...

Done!
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« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2006, 12:23:59 AM »

If you have no explanation of how two diametrically opposed worldviews, the patristic mind and 19th centural naturalism, are compatible, then please discontinue posting on this thread.

Peace.
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« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2006, 12:29:58 AM »

If you have no explanation of how two diametrically opposed worldviews, the patristic mind and 19th centural naturalism, are compatible, then please discontinue posting on this thread.

Peace.

Only opposed in your confused mind, lad.

And YOU don't TELL me to do anything here, got that?
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« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2006, 12:33:35 AM »

No matter how he baits you...the boycott must be in effect, otherwise we only encourage him to place posts that are even more inane and pointless (if that's at all possible) on this site.

Come, everyone! Join me in this boycott! Let's see how often M777 will post back-to-back posts on his 'own' threads!
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« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2006, 12:57:21 AM »

Well, just two things before I decide to boycott this one:

1.  A college level of evolution is not enough (you can't even get a good job on college level now).  You have to really involve yourself on a higher level of study in order to consider yourself qualified to reject the theory.  Otherwise, you're nothing but a youngin with not even a Bachelor's yet, let alone a Masters.

2.  We were not created incorrupt, we were created "in incorruption."  BIG DIFFERENCE!  All creation is essentially corruptible.

Otherwise, there really isn't anything to argue about.  I agree with others that this indeed has been dragged along and debated many times before.  Why troll?

God bless.

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« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2006, 01:34:14 AM »

Come, everyone! Join me in this boycott! Let's see how often M777 will post back-to-back posts on his 'own' threads!
Either that, or another thing to do is to keep hijacking his nonsensical threads, change the title and divert the discussion. That way, either the threads get split and the original core thread will be Matthew talking to himself and those he's managed to troll, or, if he keeps trying to bring the topic back on track, his posts will appear as isolated ignored posts in a "thread" full of posts which are completely unrelated to each other.
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« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2006, 02:11:14 AM »

Coconuts indeed.

I wanna see this movie http://300themovie.warnerbros.com/ . Who else does?

What were the official numbers of the Persian force, I've heard anywhere from 50,000 to 2 million........hmmmmmmm

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« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2006, 04:13:40 AM »

Why troll?

I don't see why this would even be an issue of contention among Orthodox Christians. If the patristic witness is superior to Western thought, why not just accept the patristic teaching and move on? If this truly were an Orthodox forum, the "troll" would be the one who attacks the living Tradition of the Church. Non-Orthodox Christians cannot receive communion, but Western scientists can modify the longstanding exegesis of Genesis, which is foundational to our soteriology?

Peace.
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« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2006, 04:20:20 AM »

Coconuts indeed.

I wanna see this movie http://300themovie.warnerbros.com/ . Who else does?

What were the official numbers of the Persian force, I've heard anywhere from 50,000 to 2 million........hmmmmmmm

Justinian Grin
Because of the graphics on the poster, I thought the title was "Zoo".
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« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2006, 04:27:25 AM »

We must follow the theological tradition of the Church, but the origin of man and his fall is where we must draw the line? Such thinking is when Orthodoxy becomes submissive to Western thought.
Stop thinking of this matter in Western terms. This is not Pat Robertson vs. the Board of Education. There is no "literal" nor "allegorical" interpretation of Genesis, there is only the patristic understanding.

Peace.
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« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2006, 04:30:33 AM »

Because of the graphics on the poster, I thought the title was "Zoo".

Zoo? What the hell kind of movie would that be??!!
And animal crackers do not belong in soup, they belong with milk.

Speaking of zoos and animal crackers, George, if I was too spend my college summer in Austrailia, what zoo would be a fine zoo to visit? Somthing near sydney preferably.
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« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2006, 04:35:57 AM »

Zoo? Why the hell kind of movie would that be??!!
And animal crackers do not belong in soup, they belong with milk.

Speaking of zoos and animal crackers, George, if I was too spend my college summer in Austrailia, what zoo would be a fine zoo to visit? Somthing near sydney preferably.
Taronga Zoo is Sydney's Zoo right on the Harbour. Make sure you go on one of the "Night Walks" through the Zoo to observe the nocturnal furry friends. Start with a harbour cruise with plenty of champagne and nibbles and follow up with a late opera at the Sydney Opera House (with plenty of champagne and nibbles).
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« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2006, 04:42:07 AM »

If this were Saint Euphrosynos Cafe, I doubt that one would be ridiculed for defending the patristic understanding of Genesis.

Peace.
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« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2006, 04:45:24 AM »

Taronga Zoo is Sydney's Zoo right on the Harbour. Make sure you go on one of the "Night Walks" through the Zoo to observe the nocturnal furry friends. Start with a harbour cruise with plenty of champagne and nibbles and follow up with a late opera at the Sydney Opera House (with plenty of champagne and nibbles).

Hmm, I'm thinking maybe I should go between winter and spring quarters instead of Summer, expedia.com says its sweltering during the summer. We also have "a night walk" here at the Seattle zoo, with vampire bats and other fluffly but disgusting friends. Do you guys have a thing like we do with the Public Transportation like we do, where you can give the bus driver 5 bucks (or equivalent with Aussi money) and get a little ticket that lets you bus around for the whole day.
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« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2006, 04:58:20 AM »

Do you guys have a thing like we do with the Public Transportation like we do, where you can give the bus driver 5 bucks (or equivalent with Aussi money) and get a little ticket that lets you bus around for the whole day.
What you want is the "DayTripper" ticket, this will give you all day unlimited travel on trains, buses and ferries throughout Sydney.
The cost is:
Adult      $15.40
Child      $7.70
See: http://www.cityrail.info/fares/leisure_tickets.jsp#DayTripper
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« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2006, 05:09:09 AM »

What you want is the "DayTripper" ticket, this will give you all day unlimited travel on trains, buses and ferries throughout Sydney.
The cost is:
Adult      $15.40
Child      $7.70
See: http://www.cityrail.info/fares/leisure_tickets.jsp#DayTripper

Now that right there is nifty. Seattle, you only can go on the bus, no monorail, no ferry, just bus...lame. I am actually considering this....I planned to go to mount athos last year, but I went with a couple cousins to Dublin, I don't recall how that actually happened..ha..

No leprechauns in Ireland though, Lucky Charms tho, cheap lucky charms, in Seattle Lucky Charms cost 6.75! for the small box! outrageous if you ask me, but in Ireland where they were cheap, to ya know, overcome the dissapointement of no leprechauns...How much do they cost in Aussi land? or any other land from any other member who wishes to discuss lucky charms.
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« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2006, 05:14:51 AM »

Now that right there is nifty. Seattle, you only can go on the bus, no monorail, no ferry, just bus...lame. I am actually considering this....I planned to go to mount athos last year, but I went with a couple cousins to Dublin, I don't recall how that actually happened..ha..

No leprechauns in Ireland though, Lucky Charms tho, cheap lucky charms, in Seattle Lucky Charms cost 6.75! for the small box! outrageous if you ask me, but in Ireland where they were cheap, to ya know, overcome the dissapointement of no leprechauns...How much do they cost in Aussi land? or any other land from any other member who wishes to discuss lucky charms.
But distances in the universe are measured in Light Years, not Lucky Charms. And as far as I know, Vodka and Red Bull is the breakfast of champions.
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« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2006, 05:15:20 AM »

There is nothing more to be discussed.

CONSTANTINE CAVARNOS
BIOLOGICAL EVOLUTIONISM
http://www.orthodoxwebsite.com/Documents/biological_evolutionism.htm

Peace.
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« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2006, 05:22:35 AM »

Constantly Cavernous are the Jenolan caves.
http://www.jenolancaves.org.au/
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« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2006, 05:25:14 AM »

But distances in the universe are measured in Light Years, not Lucky Charms. And as far as I know, Vodka and Red Bull is the breakfast of champions.

Its pretty cheap to go down under, cheaper then going to Europe, this package looks nice:http://www.expedia.com/pub/agent.dll?itid=0&itdx=&itty=&ecid= Thats like a grand less then the mediterranean,my hiogh school trip to central europe was 3500!

Vodka and red bull...............now you sound like the guys at my church,vodka and specifically stoli vodka, always stolichnaya, stolichnaya, stolichnaya, I am sick of stolichnaya! Thats my convert problem with the Russians, heaven forbid they ever keep a nice aged bottle of whiskey around.................
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« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2006, 05:31:14 AM »

Whiskey and RedBull just doesn't sound the same. We call Vodka and RedBull here a "Pulse".
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« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2006, 05:46:20 AM »

Whiskey and RedBull just doesn't sound the same. We call Vodka and RedBull here a "Pulse".

Why does the red bull have to be involved. I think Coca cola has every right to butt in. Coke and Jack that what I say. And besides, Red Bull sucks! (Also, when i was up in North Seattle, the bartender referred to it as a "Pulse" also).

"...and Achilles, immortal man, immortal body except he had an Achilles heel.
What an irony.'You mean I'm called Achilles, Mum,and I have an Achilles heel as well? I'll be a laughing stock.Oh, bloody hell.' Achilles must have gone into battle like this. 'Get off! Get off the heel, get off!'The Trojans with crabs and lobsters...'Get them on his heel.'
'No, not the crabs and lobsters! Aah! Aah!' If I was Achilles, I'd put my foot
in a block of concrete. For starters.Then ptoo, ptoo, ptoo - arrows shooting off everywhere. 'Ha-ha-ha-ha! Block of concrete. No problem at all. See these swords here? Thbpth! No problem.' Wa-oo, wa-oo, wa-oo! 'Ha-ha-ha-ha.' The slight downside -
he'd have a maximum radius after that.'Could you come over here, please?
Could you come over here? Could you come over here, please?
I've got something to show you. I can't show you unless you come over here. Damn.'
He'd have to put wheels on the block of concrete. (Squeaks)" -Eddie Izzard

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« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2006, 08:42:19 AM »

I wanna see this movie http://300themovie.warnerbros.com/ . Who else does?

What's with the "fighting miters" helmets?
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