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Author Topic: Byzantine Catholic martyrs added to Orthodox martyrology  (Read 5265 times) Average Rating: 0
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griego catolico
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« on: October 18, 2006, 02:25:03 PM »

First, the inclusion of a Franciscan saint in a ROCOR church and now this... Smiley

According to this online article on the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church
(http://www.cnewa.org/mag-article-bodypg-us.aspx?articleID=3229), Metropolitan Nicholas has included Blesseds Pavel Gojdic and Teodor Romzha, two Byzantine Catholic martyrs, among the Synaxis of the Carpatho-Rusyn Saints, celebrated the first Sunday after Pentecost.

May the intercession of all the saints bring us to full communion.


« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 02:30:59 PM by griego catolico » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2006, 03:06:57 PM »

As the thread in your other, more natural forum for you, states...it is time for the BCC to join ACROD...as Orthodox.

As time marches on, our metroplitan, after his bout with cancer last year and continuing health problems, seems to doing many things he must have wished to do, preparing the ground for his successor.
Bear in mind that in our parish there are folks who remember being in communion with Rome and venerating these C-R saints is something they never really ceased.


{edited because Spellchecker's gone}
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« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2006, 04:19:46 PM »

As the thread in your other, more natural forum for you, states...it is time for the BCC to join ACROD...as Orthodox.

{edited because Spellchecker's gone}

Respectfully, I disagree with you. Smiley

It must be remembered that Blessed Theodore and Blessed Pavel were both pressured by the Soviets to become Orthodox, yet they refused, stating their loyalty to the Catholic Church.

The BCC leaving communion with Rome to join the ACROD will not happen. The witness and blood shed by the Byzantine Catholic martyrs assures us this.

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« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2006, 04:25:02 PM »

No, it is not possible.
Many BC's didn't die for the Orthodox faith but for a foreign faith.  They were martyred for Christ, yes, but they were not Orthodox. Just like we would not consider Martin Luther King or Zwigli Orthodox saints, so too, shall we not consider BC martrys Orthodox saints.  They weren't, they were saints for the a different church, the Church of Rome.
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« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2006, 04:28:53 PM »

LOL!
Not my idea...it was floated first at ByzCath forum. Now it was unclear as to which communion they would end up in and given their own weird self-image they could be imaging both (ha!).
You are not blessed as I am, I assume, to be in Pittsburgh, with a huge BC population. Things appear different 'on the ground' here.
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« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2006, 05:28:38 PM »

Both sides have martyrs who died for their faith, and the other side may very well venerate them (at least as far as the Rusyns go).   Such is the case with St. Maxim Sandovich.  The idea that one side or the other has martyrs, and that this by itself would dictate who goes where is nonsense.

The BCC is however obviously not going to join the ACROD lock stock and barrel, which has nothing to do with the presence of martyrs in one church or the other.  My experience is that most identify themselves primarily as Catholics (not the ones they've already lost to Roman Rite parishes), and that a minority identifies with the Orthodox part of their past.  I think that this Orthodox leaning minority is probably now highly troubled by the forthcoming changes in the Ruthenian Metropolia, and some of them may very well switch to the ACROD or the OCA.

Metropolitan Nicholas I think is again extending a hand of friendship, which he has often done.  Hopefully his gesture would go a long way to making those who may join the ACROD feel more at home.
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« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2006, 06:18:58 PM »

What changes in the Ruthenian eparchy are happening?
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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2006, 12:05:06 AM »

A new translation of the liturgy.
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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2006, 01:40:11 PM »

The BCC leaving communion with Rome to join the ACROD will not happen. The witness and blood shed by the Byzantine Catholic martyrs assures us this.
But they were resisting the commands of the Communists and that's not the same as rejoining their Orthodox brethren by choice.
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« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2006, 01:11:29 PM »

Maybe this is all just evidence that the Eastern Orthodox are going to become Catholic.  Cheesy Grin  Wink LOL. Just kidding.
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« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2006, 04:15:40 PM »

Maybe this is all just evidence that the Eastern Orthodox are going to become Catholic.  Cheesy Grin  Wink LOL. Just kidding.
Maybe this is all just evidence that the Eastern Orthodox are going to become Catholic.  Cheesy Grin  Wink LOL. Not just kidding.
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« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2006, 05:43:23 PM »

Oh, what is the next step? Add Josaphat of Polotsk to our calendar?
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« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2006, 05:44:19 PM »

full communion??  Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh

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« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2006, 05:45:30 PM »

May the intercession of all the saints free us from the heresy of ecumenism, and the   
"recognition" of outsider saint.


Now is very better.

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« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2006, 05:46:02 PM »

 :'(
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« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2006, 12:04:06 AM »

May the intercession of all the saints free us from the heresy of ecumenism, and the   
"recognition" of outsider saint.


Now is very better.

Quote changed in original post - Clev.
Wow. Wow.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2006, 10:39:40 AM »

May the prayers and example of these Martyrs for their Faith bring us into greater charity with one another!
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« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2006, 10:40:25 AM »

May the prayers and example of these Martyrs for their Faith bring us into greater charity with one another!
Amen.
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« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2006, 07:57:15 AM »

Pardon my ignorance - were these particular BC martyrs living in areas where the CR came from in the "old country?"  Can I assume that they at least lived in the time when the CR were in communion with the BC's themselves?

edit: added the word "particular?
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« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2008, 01:05:15 AM »

Wait, I'm very confused, did the Orthodox just recognize people as saints who weren't Orthodox?
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« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2008, 01:36:15 AM »

Wait, I'm very confused, did the Orthodox just recognize people as saints who weren't Orthodox?

No, except the prophets reposed before Christ.

And we simply don't rely on links and news of Catholic propagandistic machinery e.g. cnewa or likewise. Until I see this news from ROCOR I'll deem it hoax, as many times before.
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« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2008, 02:00:19 AM »

And we simply don't rely on links and news of Catholic propagandistic machinery e.g. cnewa or likewise. Until I see this news from ROCOR I'll deem it hoax, as many times before.

Those saints are only recognized by ACROD and not by the entire Orthodox domain.  Write or call Met. Nicholas if you need clarification.   Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2008, 11:00:01 AM »

Oh, what is the next step? Add Josaphat of Polotsk to our calendar?

According to one Ukrainian Catholic priest who resides in Ireland the OCA already did.  Only problem is that the OCA has on its calendar is Clearly listed as 'a prince of India'.  But that doesn't stop some, including priests from desiminating false info on the internet.

I think we talked about this Icon which includes both Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic saints before.  Or maybe it was on CAF.  If it was CAF then its been wiped out along with thousands of other posts by Orthodox participants like myself who were banned.

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« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2008, 07:12:23 PM »

Orthodoc,

Although he would not just come out and say it I think the Father was refereing to a typo.  It should read St. Joasaph not St. Josaphat.   I could be wrong but I don't think there are any Orthodox St. Josaphats.

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« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2008, 07:23:31 PM »

And we simply don't rely on links and news of Catholic propagandistic machinery e.g. cnewa or likewise. Until I see this news from ROCOR I'll deem it hoax, as many times before.

CNEWA an arm of the Catholic propagandistic machine?  Hardly.  The CNEWA distributes aid to those in need regardless of Church affiliation, no strings attached.  Their magazine One prints only factual, fraternal articles on the Orthodox Churches.  Would that I could find an Orthodox organization or magazine that returned the favor to Eastern Catholics.

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« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2008, 10:30:34 PM »

And we simply don't rely on links and news of Catholic propagandistic machinery e.g. cnewa or likewise. Until I see this news from ROCOR I'll deem it hoax, as many times before.

CNEWA an arm of the Catholic propagandistic machine?  Hardly.  The CNEWA distributes aid to those in need regardless of Church affiliation, no strings attached.  Their magazine One prints only factual, fraternal articles on the Orthodox Churches.  Would that I could find an Orthodox organization or magazine that returned the favor to Eastern Catholics.

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« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2008, 10:46:24 PM »

Since for some reason my reply to the above post did not show up.  (Not sure what I did wrong.  Here it is again -

You mean like the fact that on more than one occassion this journal has reported that the EP was getting ready to acknowledge both the UOC-KP and UAOC as cannonical.  Or that the EP was acceptable to having a united Orthodox Church in Ukraine in communion with both himself and the Pope?  I'm sure that's what Orthodoxlurker is referring to.

Comment:  It should read St. Joasaph not St. Josaphat.   I could be wrong but I don't think there are any Orthodox St. Josaphats.


Reply;  As I stated before the OCA Priest Service Book by Archbishop Dimitri lists on page 336 under 'The Monthly Calendar' for November 22 -  Fathers Barlaam and Josaphat, Princes of greater India.  There is no St Joasph that I know of on the Orthodox calendar.  So one can only assume that this Ukrainian priest either never read the piests service book or really believes that the Ukrainian St and the prince of India are one in the same which I doubt.  Or was just giving out false info to malign the OCA.

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« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2008, 11:19:09 PM »

Comment:  It should read St. Joasaph not St. Josaphat.   I could be wrong but I don't think there are any Orthodox St. Josaphats.


Reply;  As I stated before the OCA Priest Service Book by Archbishop Dimitri lists on page 336 under 'The Monthly Calendar' for November 22 -  Fathers Barlaam and Josaphat, Princes of greater India.  There is no St Joasph that I know of on the Orthodox calendar.  So one can only assume that this Ukrainian priest either never read the piests service book or really believes that the Ukrainian St and the prince of India are one in the same which I doubt.  Or was just giving out false info to malign the OCA.

Orthodoc


Bingo on the last.  I recall the episode quite clearly and the good Fr. certainly seemed to be taking sadistic delight tweaking the Orthodox in general and the OCA in particular.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2008, 11:47:41 PM »

I wish I had seen this earlier, I could have spared you all sorts of grief.

Barlaam and Josaphat are wisdom figures from India.  The Greek translation was attributed to St. John Damascene, and a Syriac edition to Bar Hebraeus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlaam_and_Josaphat_(book)

According to legend, a King Abenner or Avenier in India persecuted the Christian Church in his realm, founded by the Apostle Thomas. When astrologers predicted that his own son would some day become a Christian, Abenner had the young prince Josaphat isolated from external contact. Despite the imprisonment, Josaphat met the hermit Saint Barlaam and converted to Christianity. Josaphat kept his faith even in the face of his father’s anger and persuasion. Eventually, Abenner himself converted, turned over his throne to Josaphat, and retired to the desert to become a hermit. Josaphat himself later abdicated and went into reclusion with his old teacher Barlaam.

The story of Barlaam and Josaphat was popular in the Middle Ages, appearing in such works as the Golden Legend. Although Barlaam and Josaphat were never formally canonized, they were included in earlier editions of the Roman Martyrology (feast day 27 November) - though not in the Roman Missal - and in the Eastern Orthodox Church liturgical calendar (26 August
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« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2008, 12:52:53 AM »

I wish I had seen this earlier, I could have spared you all sorts of grief.

Barlaam and Josaphat are wisdom figures from India.  The Greek translation was attributed to St. John Damascene, and a Syriac edition to Bar Hebraeus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlaam_and_Josaphat_(book)

According to legend, a King Abenner or Avenier in India persecuted the Christian Church in his realm, founded by the Apostle Thomas. When astrologers predicted that his own son would some day become a Christian, Abenner had the young prince Josaphat isolated from external contact. Despite the imprisonment, Josaphat met the hermit Saint Barlaam and converted to Christianity. Josaphat kept his faith even in the face of his father’s anger and persuasion. Eventually, Abenner himself converted, turned over his throne to Josaphat, and retired to the desert to become a hermit. Josaphat himself later abdicated and went into reclusion with his old teacher Barlaam.

The story of Barlaam and Josaphat was popular in the Middle Ages, appearing in such works as the Golden Legend. Although Barlaam and Josaphat were never formally canonized, they were included in earlier editions of the Roman Martyrology (feast day 27 November) - though not in the Roman Missal - and in the Eastern Orthodox Church liturgical calendar (26 August

According to an earlier thread here at OCnet and http://ecumenicalbuddhism.blogspot.com/search?q=barlaam Saint Josaphat/Ioasaph is really Gautama Buddha.
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« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2008, 08:35:35 AM »

Orthodoc,

Could you please provide references?  I know Catholic sources have misrepresented the position of the EP, I do not remember the CNEWA site or One doing so.

From the online ROCOR Menaion:

November 19 (Civil Date: December 1)

Nativity Fast.

Prophet Obadiah (Abdias).
Martyr Barlaam of Caesarea in Cappadocia.
St. Barlaam and St. Ioasaph, prince of India, and St. Abenner the king, father of St. Ioasaph.
Services combined.
Martyr Azes of Isauria and with him 150 soldiers.
Martyr Heliodorus in Pamphylia.
St. Barlaam, abbot of the Kiev Caves.
St. Hilarion, monk, Wonderworker of Thessalonica.
Greek Calendar
Martyr Agapius.
Martyrs Anthimus, Thalalaeus, Christopher, Euphemia and her children.
Martyr Pancharius.
Repose of Metropolitan Philaret of Moscow (1867).

http://www.orthodox.net/menaion/menaion.html

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« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2008, 01:54:19 PM »

Comment:  It should read St. Joasaph not St. Josaphat.   I could be wrong but I don't think there are any Orthodox St. Josaphats.


Reply;  As I stated before the OCA Priest Service Book by Archbishop Dimitri lists on page 336 under 'The Monthly Calendar' for November 22 -  Fathers Barlaam and Josaphat, Princes of greater India.  There is no St Joasph that I know of on the Orthodox calendar.  So one can only assume that this Ukrainian priest either never read the piests service book or really believes that the Ukrainian St and the prince of India are one in the same which I doubt.  Or was just giving out false info to malign the OCA.

Orthodoc


Bingo on the last.  I recall the episode quite clearly and the good Fr. certainly seemed to be taking sadistic delight tweaking the Orthodox in general and the OCA in particular.  Roll Eyes

Yes.  Unfortunately the Greek Orthodox moderator reprimanded me for trying to defend the OCA and locked the folder so I was unable to respond the the UC priest.

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« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2008, 02:11:35 PM »

Deacon Lance asks -

Orthodoc,

Could you please provide references?  I know Catholic sources have misrepresented the position of the EP, I do not remember the CNEWA site or One doing so.

Reply: 

Catholic World news ^ | 6-19-08


Constantinople, Jun. 19, 2008 (CWNews.com) - The Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople has responded favorably to a suggestion by the head of the Ukrainian Catholic Church for a system of "dual unity" in which Byzantine Catholic churches would be in full communion with both Constantinople and Rome.

Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople welcomed the proposal in an interview with the magazine Cyril and Methodius, the RISU news service reports. The acknowledged leader of the Orthodox world suggested that the "dual unity" approach would produce something akin to the situation of the Christian world in the 1st millennium, before the split between Rome and Constantinople.

Cardinal Lubomyr Husar of Kiev, the Major Archbishop of the Ukrainian Catholic Church-- the largest of the Eastern Catholic churches-- had offered the possibility that Byzantine Catholics might seek communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate, without giving up their communion with the Holy See. Patriarch Bartholomew expressed distinct interest in the idea, saying that "the mother Church in Constantinople holds the doors open for the return of all her former sons and daughters."

Patriarch Bartholomew acknowledged that a restoration of unity would require study, and important differences would have to be overcome. However, he observed that major steps have already been taken to resolve disagreements-- most importantly the revocation of the mutual decrees of excommunication issued by Rome and Constantinople against each other in 1054.

While Catholic and Orthodox theologians continue their efforts to reach agreement on doctrinal questions, Patriarch Bartholomew said, "the people at the grass roots have to come together again." He pointed to the "dual unity" idea as a possible step toward practical unity.

Cardinal Husar, the Ukrainian Catholic leader, has suggested in the past that the Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics of Ukraine should unite under the leadership of a single patriarch. That provocative suggestion is particularly interesting for two reasons.

First, Byzantine Catholics in Ukraine argued for years-- particularly since emerging vigorously from the shadow of Communist repression-- that the Ukrainian Catholic Church should be accorded the status of a patriarchate. Both the late Pope John Paul II (bio - news) and Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news) have expressed some sympathy for that suggestion. The Byzantine-rite Ukrainian Catholic Church is substantially larger than other Catholic churches that are recognized as patriarchates, including the Maronite, Melkite, Chaldean, Syrian, Armenian and Coptic Catholic churches. However, Kiev is not a historical patriarchal see like Antioch or Alexandria. And the recognition of a Ukrainian Catholic patriarchate would be sure to provoke outrage from the Russian Orthodox Church, which has complained frequently and bitterly about the activities of Byzantine Catholics in Ukraine.

Second, the Orthodox Church in Ukraine is badly split, with three different groups competing for recognition as leaders of the Byzantine faithful. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church- Kiev Patriarchate is led by Patriarch Filaret, who was once acknowledged by Moscow but broke with the Russian Orthodox Church after Ukraine gained political independence. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church- Moscow Patriarchate retains ties to Russian Orthodoxy. The Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Ukraine, smaller than the other two, has frequently sided with the Kiev patriarchate in efforts to form a single, unified Orthodox Church in Ukraine, independent from Moscow.

============

Orthodoc

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« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2008, 05:31:51 PM »

here is the response of the EP to these Catholic lies:

PRESS RELEASE

With respect to the recently published articles reporting that allegedly His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew believes that it is possible for the Greek Catholics (Uniates) to have a “double union”, in other words, full communion with Rome as well as with Constantinople, the Ecumenical Patriarchate refutes this inaccurate statement and affirms it was never made.  The Ecumenical Patriarchate repeats its position that full union in faith is a prerequisite for sacramental communion.

At the Patriarchate, the 5th of July 2008
From the Chief Secretariat of the Holy Synod


Официальное Заявление

Относительно недавних публикаций о том, что, якобы, Его Всесвятейшество Вселенский Патриарх г.г. Варфоломей считает возможным «двойное единство» так называемых греко-католиков (униатов), т.е. их полное общение, как с Римом, так и с Константинополем, Вселенская Патриархия опровергает их, так как это недостоверно и никогда не было высказано, и повторяет свою позицию о том, что полное единство в вере является предпосылкой для таинственного общения.

В Патриархии, 5-ого июля 2008
Секретариат Святого и Священного Синода
http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=952&tla=en
 
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« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2008, 05:52:15 PM »

Orthodoc,

Please note the article you provide is from CWN (Catholic World News), not the CNEWA (Catholic Near East Welfare Association) or their publication ONE.  I would also note that the CNEWA is a Papal agency.  CWN is a branch of Trinity Communications, a non-profit that while Catholic, has no official sanction of the Church.

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« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2008, 06:22:51 PM »

Orthodoc,

Please note the article you provide is from CWN (Catholic World News), not the CNEWA (Catholic Near East Welfare Association) or their publication ONE.  I would also note that the CNEWA is a Papal agency.  CWN is a branch of Trinity Communications, a non-profit that while Catholic, has no official sanction of the Church.

Fr. Deacon Lance

You might be right, but I thought exactly what Orthodoc explained above - CWN and CNEWA sounded too similar to me. I also remember some Catholic agency in charge for Asia that published hoax at least twice regarding EP.

Now I'm retracting, admitting I have no source to prove that CNEWA is a Catholic propaganda tool.
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