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Author Topic: Moscow, ROCOR,Stalin and Friends  (Read 3865 times) Average Rating: 0
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GOCTheophan
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« on: October 16, 2006, 05:17:38 AM »

Interesting. I have heard very strict and conservative Eastern Orthodox Christians state that the atonement is heresey. Take a look a the posts concerning this issue on the Eastern Christianity sub-forum over on Catholic Answers. Fr. Ambrose, a very conservitive, anti-Latin priest-monk from the ROCOR comdemns the atonement as a western innovation.

Dear Christopher,

Well look where ROCOR have ended up! Hand in hand with greatest murderer of Christians the world has ever known-Soviet Power! Soon they will have icons of Stalin in their Temples  :'(, but I wont talk about them anymore because otherwise I will start ranting.

Read the "Life in Christ" by Archbishop Nicholas Cabelias who was writing in the 14 th century I think. Read the homilies of St Gregory Palamas. I could go on but to say that the a perfectly Biblical concept is an innovation is maddness!

I used to almost see ROCOR as THE criterion of Orthodoxy but that was me being ignorant, isolated and well a bit of a moron. Met Kraphovitsky was the first First hierarch of the Russian Synod in Exile (an nicer and older name for them) and he basically picked up the ideas of the proto-modernist Aldebard of France and packaged them in psuedo-Orthdoxy trappings with a lot of "papist-bashing". Probably the greatest Orthodox hierarch of the 20 th century St Theophan the New Recluse of Poltava gradually distanced himself from ROCOR because of its sneaking acceptance of this darkness.

Some very holy people like Blessed Seraphim Rose, Blessed Averky of Jordanville (who had been a novice under St Theophan) and others kept the truth within ROCOR but their battle was an up hill one especially with the Holy Transfiguration Monastery of Boston which had come into ROCOR from the ultra-modernist Greek Orthodox Archdiocese was fighting for the other side. Remember that the high priest of "Orthodox" modernism used to be a deacon in ROCOR.

ROCOR in general is now more interested in being Russian than being Orthodox.

Theophan.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 05:21:38 AM by GOCTheophan » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2006, 07:34:27 AM »

What does the above have to do withthis topic?
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« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2006, 11:27:32 AM »

Dear Christopher,

Well look where ROCOR have ended up! Hand in hand with greatest murderer of Christians the world has ever known-Soviet Power! Soon they will have icons of Stalin in their Temples  :'(, but I wont talk about them anymore because otherwise I will start ranting.

Read the "Life in Christ" by Archbishop Nicholas Cabelias who was writing in the 14 th century I think. Read the homilies of St Gregory Palamas. I could go on but to say that the a perfectly Biblical concept is an innovation is maddness!

I used to almost see ROCOR as THE criterion of Orthodoxy but that was me being ignorant, isolated and well a bit of a moron. Met Kraphovitsky was the first First hierarch of the Russian Synod in Exile (an nicer and older name for them) and he basically picked up the ideas of the proto-modernist Aldebard of France and packaged them in psuedo-Orthdoxy trappings with a lot of "papist-bashing". Probably the greatest Orthodox hierarch of the 20 th century St Theophan the New Recluse of Poltava gradually distanced himself from ROCOR because of its sneaking acceptance of this darkness.

Some very holy people like Blessed Seraphim Rose, Blessed Averky of Jordanville (who had been a novice under St Theophan) and others kept the truth within ROCOR but their battle was an up hill one especially with the Holy Transfiguration Monastery of Boston which had come into ROCOR from the ultra-modernist Greek Orthodox Archdiocese was fighting for the other side. Remember that the high priest of "Orthodox" modernism used to be a deacon in ROCOR.

ROCOR in general is now more interested in being Russian than being Orthodox.

Theophan.
Thank you very much for your information and I will definitely read up on this matter.
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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2006, 11:43:27 AM »

Well look where ROCOR have ended up! Hand in hand with greatest murderer of Christians the world has ever known-Soviet Power! Soon they will have icons of Stalin in their Temples  :'(, but I wont talk about them anymore because otherwise I will start ranting.


 Roll Eyes  Oh please.  Pure tin-foil hat crap.  (Mods, there IS a tin-foil hat emoticon.  Other message boards use them.)
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« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2006, 12:54:00 PM »

Roll Eyes  Oh please.  Pure tin-foil hat crap.  (Mods, there IS a tin-foil hat emoticon.  Other message boards use them.)
While I doubt that stalin will ever end up on an Icon, the effect that nationalism has on Russian Orthodoxy is disturbing. I have a question. How on earth did Moscow, of all places, get a Patriarch? I mean, its not Apostolic, at all. It seems like putting a Patriarch in sydney australia or Albuquerque, New Mexico.
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« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2006, 01:38:10 PM »

While I doubt that stalin will ever end up on an Icon, the effect that nationalism has on Russian Orthodoxy is disturbing. I have a question. How on earth did Moscow, of all places, get a Patriarch? I mean, its not Apostolic, at all. It seems like putting a Patriarch in sydney australia or Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Dear Christopher,

There are Icons of Stalin venerated in Churches of the Moscow Patriarchate. He already has. That is why True Orthodox Christians do not call the Moscow Patriarchate Russian Orthodox but Soviet "Orthodox". For most of the 20 th century the Russian Church was made up of ROCOR and the Catacombniki.

As regards why Moscow not being "Apostolic" was a Patriarchate you are seeing Orthodox eccelisolgy from an RC persecptive. There is no rank higher in the Church of Christ than Bishop. "Patriarch" is a honourary and not an apostolic title.

Theophan.
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2006, 01:43:27 PM »

I thought so. You have no knowledge or understanding of the role of the Ecumenical Patriarch who DOES fill the function once enjoyed by Rome, "all rights and priviledges". Communion with the EP is tantamount to being 'in' the Church. This is not a requirement in western-style legalistic sense, but a simple fact.
Perhaps you are thinking of the few small local churches not-in-communion? You've got them too.

Are you being serious? Many in the Jerusalem and Moscow Patriarchates consider Patriarch Bartholomew only borderline Orthodox.

Theophan.
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« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2006, 01:47:42 PM »

Theophan,
ECafe welcomes that kind of post.
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« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2006, 01:58:32 PM »

Theophan,
ECafe welcomes that kind of post.

I didnt say it didnt.
I was just wondering if what you said about the EP was a joke or a wind up considering the low opinion so much of the "Orthodox world" holds of it.
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« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2006, 02:00:04 PM »

Dear Christopher,

There are Icons of Stalin venerated in Churches of the Moscow Patriarchate. He already has. That is why True Orthodox Christians do not call the Moscow Patriarchate Russian Orthodox but Soviet "Orthodox". For most of the 20 th century the Russian Church was made up of ROCOR and the Catacombniki.

As regards why Moscow not being "Apostolic" was a Patriarchate you are seeing Orthodox eccelisolgy from an RC persecptive. There is no rank higher in the Church of Christ than Bishop. "Patriarch" is a honourary and not an apostolic title.

Theophan.


Hearsay.  I've never heard this.  Provide evidence or I have no reason to believe that you are nothing but a troll.  This better be something from the past decade too.
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« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2006, 02:17:58 PM »

I didnt say it didnt.
I was just wondering if what you said about the EP was a joke or a wind up considering the low opinion so much of the "Orthodox world" holds of it.

Really? Quote some census data or statistics, not bombast.
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« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2006, 03:17:51 PM »

Interestingly enough, in the private politics forum I linked to an article from Newsweek about how Putin is creating a feudal society where only those who are in his or his cronies' favor can get ahead.  Do we really imagine that that does not extend to the Church? I have to wonder how people think that in ten years the spirit of communism has left the MP and the problems that ROCOR was opposed to have suddenly cleared up.

Anastasios
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« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2006, 04:07:50 PM »

Roll Eyes  Oh please.  Pure tin-foil hat crap.  (Mods, there IS a tin-foil hat emoticon.  Other message boards use them.)

And there is a "Tin Foil Hat Song"
http://eclectech.co.uk/mindcontrol.php

 Cheesy Grin


Ebor
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« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2006, 04:11:28 PM »

Interestingly enough, in the private politics forum I linked to an article from Newsweek about how Putin is creating a feudal society where only those who are in his or his cronies' favor can get ahead.  Do we really imagine that that does not extend to the Church? I have to wonder how people think that in ten years the spirit of communism has left the MP and the problems that ROCOR was opposed to have suddenly cleared up.

Anastasios

I would suggest that only those whom leaders favour getting ahead or preferred is not a "communist" thing, but rather an all too Human thing and found through out history in Russia and many other parts of the world.  Just a thought.

(is there any documentation/support, btw, for the claim that there are icons of Stalin, please?)

Ebor
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« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2006, 07:22:17 PM »

Yes, Theophan, I think it would be proper for you to back up your claims about Stalin icons with documentary evidence.
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« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2006, 08:35:17 PM »

Dear Christopher,

There are Icons of Stalin venerated in Churches of the Moscow Patriarchate. He already has. That is why True Orthodox Christians do not call the Moscow Patriarchate Russian Orthodox but Soviet "Orthodox". For most of the 20 th century the Russian Church was made up of ROCOR and the Catacombniki.

As regards why Moscow not being "Apostolic" was a Patriarchate you are seeing Orthodox eccelisolgy from an RC persecptive. There is no rank higher in the Church of Christ than Bishop. "Patriarch" is a honourary and not an apostolic title.

Theophan.

What then is the point of a Patriarch and what is the theological justification for having one? Thank you for you patience and for answering my questions. I didn't know that there really were Stalin Icons. My goodness.
Many blessings in Christ
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« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2006, 08:36:38 PM »

Interestingly enough, in the private politics forum I linked to an article from Newsweek about how Putin is creating a feudal society where only those who are in his or his cronies' favor can get ahead.  Do we really imagine that that does not extend to the Church? I have to wonder how people think that in ten years the spirit of communism has left the MP and the problems that ROCOR was opposed to have suddenly cleared up.

Anastasios
It takes time. I am sure God will work among the faithful.
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« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2006, 09:56:11 PM »

What then is the point of a Patriarch and what is the theological justification for having one? Thank you for you patience and for answering my questions. I didn't know that there really were Stalin Icons. My goodness.
Many blessings in Christ

The point is that the Pope and The Patriarchate of the West after having gone on and split with us, over delusions of grandeur. The Orthodox Patriarchates needed a replacement for the missing Pentarchy. That place was filled by Moscow. Comprende?
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« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2006, 10:16:46 PM »

Quote
The Orthodox Patriarchates needed a replacement for the missing Pentarchy. That place was filled by Moscow. Comprende?

Last I checked Constantinople was the primus inter pares of the Orthodox episcopacy.  Then, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem - Moscow doesn't even make the top four. 
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« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2006, 10:20:51 PM »

Last I checked Constantinople was the primus inter pares of the Orthodox episcopacy.  Then, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem - Moscow doesn't even make the top four. 

We needed a pentarchy, Moscow filled it.
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« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2006, 10:28:14 PM »

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We needed a pentarchy, Moscow filled it.

Only in the dreams of Russian Messianism.  Which pan-Orthodox synod elevated Moscow to this rank? 
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« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2006, 10:31:45 PM »

why she did. Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2006, 12:24:09 AM »

The point is that the Pope and The Patriarchate of the West after having gone on and split with us, over delusions of grandeur. The Orthodox Patriarchates needed a replacement for the missing Pentarchy. That place was filled by Moscow. Comprende?
I would rather hear from one the members who can discuss this issue with respect and compassion.
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« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2006, 12:24:38 AM »

Last I checked Constantinople was the primus inter pares of the Orthodox episcopacy.  Then, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem - Moscow doesn't even make the top four. 
That's how I understood it.
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« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2006, 12:25:26 AM »

why she did. Smiley
Moscow did this on its own? hmmm, seems like a popish action.  Wink
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« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2006, 12:40:56 AM »

Quote
Moscow did this on its own? hmmm, seems like a popish action.

Keep in mind that our friend sdcheung isn't what is normally found in the Orthodox real-world (I know the RC internet world can produce some odd ones as well...).  There is though a sort of folk belief that Old Rome fell to schism, New Rome (Constantinople) fell to Islamic rule and thus Moscow was a sort of defacto Third Rome because it was the largest, at least nominally, Orthodox Christian power.  But officially speaking this was never the case. 
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« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2006, 12:57:08 AM »

Keep in mind that our friend sdcheung isn't what is normally found in the Orthodox real-world (I know the RC internet world can produce some odd ones as well...).  There is though a sort of folk belief that Old Rome fell to schism, New Rome (Constantinople) fell to Islamic rule and thus Moscow was a sort of defacto Third Rome because it was the largest, at least nominally, Orthodox Christian power.  But officially speaking this was never the case. 
Thank you again for helping to educate me on the east. You have been most helpful.
Many blessings in Christ
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« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2006, 04:52:39 AM »

Back on topic, I am still waiting for Theophan to provide documentary evidence to back up his assertions.  I think it is imminently fair to demand that he show the MP has been using icons of Stalin since the end of the Soviet regime.  [And as a point of curiosity I would like to see the evidence of their use during the Soviet regime as well].  Until he does so we have little to consider or discuss.  If he does not have such evidence on hand, then he is honor bound to let us know when he thinks he can get it, or else admit that the evidence is unavailable.

I would also note that IF there is no evidence to support his assertions, then he is bearing false witness against the Moscow Patriarchy.  It is important, Theophan, that you as a Christian clarify this with all haste.  You have made serious charges that demand some documentary proof. The Internet is a wonderful tool of communication, but it is also easily corrupted by the Enemy, who encourages many to spread lies, slanders, gossip, and other allegations without evidence.  Often when reasonable evidence is subsequently asked for, in pride the slanderer refuses to provide it or retract his claims.  Beware people, of the snares of the Enemy.

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2006, 08:01:13 AM »

Indeed, Brian, the statement that there are "icons of Stalin" is quite an extraordinary one.  In such cases it would seem to be an excellent idea to go by the dictum that "Extraordinary claims require even an ordinary level of proof", that is some level of support or documentation beyond the speaker/writer's "say-so".  And just because a person does not agree with someone or group, that does not mean that it is OK to spread rumours and smears and gossip.   

I have seen many cases of bizarre accusations by persons who would not or could not provide proof, or who would then attempt to smear the person who presented countering evidence or showed the errors in their claims.  Some have gotten indignant that another would ask for documentation; apparently their word is to be accepted unquestioned.  Well, remember the Bereans and how they were commended for searching for supporting information.  Smiley

You have made a good point.

Ebor
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« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2006, 05:11:35 PM »

Theophan has asked for some help finding a "Stalin Icon" in a Russian church on the cafe, but so far there hasn't been much except for one from a very peculiar site that I can't read, it being in Russian.  But it has a lot of pictures with nazi themes so it may be rather umm iffy as to being a good source of information. 

Ebor
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« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2006, 05:54:04 PM »

There are Icons of Stalin venerated in Churches of the Moscow Patriarchate.

What is your proof for this accusation?
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« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2006, 07:20:04 PM »

What is your proof for this accusation?

Thank you for the 2nd.  GOCTheophan?  You've yet to back up this assertion.
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« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2006, 01:57:39 AM »

It's not hard to believe that the Moscow Patriarch was once involved with the KGB, but as far as I've been told, he's since repented of his communism.

Peace.
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« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2006, 11:25:49 AM »

Dear Christopher,

There are Icons of Stalin venerated in Churches of the Moscow Patriarchate. He already has. . . .
Theophan.


I don't believe that for one minute.  Sounds like an urban myth to me.  I would say that Theophan needs to either show indisputable evidence for such horrid accusations or stop making them.

Gregory
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« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2006, 11:28:48 AM »

Come on, GOCTheophan; it's been 3 days since you made your slanderous claim.  Where's your proof?
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« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2006, 12:44:07 PM »

Well, he took it over to the E-Cafe and began by accusing us all of being "hetrodox" and being willing to debate "the apostasy of ROCOR-L". Oh, and we are all under "prelest".

We have managed to come up with an image, which I in turn found referenced here (don't visit it at the office!). Neither I nor Babelfish are up to interpreting the accompanying text. It is unclear as to whether this is genuinely malevolent site or some sort of parody. My interpretation of GOCT's posts is that he is entirely talking through his hat and simply repeating hearsay, or worse.
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« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2006, 12:51:47 PM »

Well, he took it over to the E-Cafe and began by accusing us all of being "hetrodox" and being willing to debate "the apostasy of ROCOR-L". Oh, and we are all under "prelest".

We have managed to come up with an image, which I in turn found referenced here (don't visit it at the office!). Neither I nor Babelfish are up to interpreting the accompanying text. It is unclear as to whether this is genuinely malevolent site or some sort of parody. My interpretation of GOCT's posts is that he is entirely talking through his hat and simply repeating hearsay, or worse.


Not surprised.  It looks like he deleted his most recent response to one of my posts.

Oh, and Surf Control didn't stop the second site from appearing.  Besides, it's all in Russian.  Just a page of silly conspiracy theory.
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« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2006, 02:42:50 AM »

I can say I have seen an Icon with Stalin in it but it was of the Last Judement and he was be torn apart by demons. I don't think anyone would be venerating him in that icon.
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« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2006, 02:04:18 PM »

I can say I have seen an Icon with Stalin in it but it was of the Last Judement and he was be torn apart by demons. I don't think anyone would be venerating him in that icon.

That kind of depiction would not surprise me.  But somehow I don't think that is the sort of icon that the OP meant.

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
A Sombra
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« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2007, 11:10:07 PM »

These pseudo "icons" depict both Hitler and Stalin in the apparel of Bishops-if the MP DID okay icons of Stalin, he certainly wouldnot be dressed as a Bishop! I am no fan of the MP, but, I also would not lie about them-I certainly do not believe that there has ever been an ivon of Stalin in any MP church. Having seen GOC Theophan's posts in other places, I am not the least surprised that he would make an accusation then flee when the asked for proof could not be produced, since the transgression he accused the MP of has indeed never happened.
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