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Author Topic: Ukrainian un-canonical jurisdictions, false priests?  (Read 4804 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mexican
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« on: October 15, 2006, 04:05:50 PM »

Hello

This post comes after some shared interesting information in the "Orthodoxy in the Caribbean" topic.

In addition to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Moscow and the one under Patriarch Filaret in Ukraine, and the two dioceses under the Ecumenical Patriarchate in USA and Canada, these are the other Ukrainian jurisdictions with the exception of obvious-vagant groups that I will not list (correct me if I'm wrong):

UKRAINIAN AUTOCEPHALOUS ORTHODOX CHURCH
Exists in Western Ukraine, led by Met. Mefodiy (Kudrianov) and has a section in the USA led by Met. Michael Javchak Champion who also supports a Diocese in Colombia.

http://www.uaoc.org/

UKRAINIAN AUTOCEPHALOUS ORTHODOX CHURCH ("CANONICAL")
Led by Patriarch Moisey (Kulyk) with several bishops outside Ukraine but few known to be in Ukraine.

http://www.soborna.org/news_eng/news_eng.htm

UKRAINIAN AUTONOMOUS ORTHODOX CHURCH IN AMERICA
Denounced Patriarch Moisey and left his jurisdiction, it has some bishops in Ukraine, a group in the USA and a Diocese in Ecuador.

http://www.uaocamerica.org/PressRoom/News2006.dsp

From what I have seen, the first group (UAOC) seems to be more legitimate than the others, it comes from the original UAOC of Patriarch Mtyslav. However, Met. Michael Javchak Champion received Bishop Odon Abad of Colombia (who had been ordained by a vagant Brazilian group) just like that, without "conditional" ordination or consecration:

http://www.geocities.com//irsocolombia/doc1.htm

The UAOC "Canonical" is under Patriarch Moisey Kulyk who had some relation with the UAOC in USA (the story is complicated and I don't understand it) but then decided to establish his own Church in Ukraine. Surrounded by bishops of dubious origin (vagant conections) he proclaimed himself Patriarch. They have opened a seminary in the US with these characteristics:

http://www.soborna.org/news_eng/news_196_06_01.htm

The UAOCA under Met. Ioan (Notaro) separated from Moisey after he had proclaimed himself Patriarch and brought many bishops (including some of dubious origin) to this Church. What puzzles me is that they base themselves on a Tomos of Autonomy given by a "Western Rite Metropolia" which is UNDER the UAOCA now:

http://img.forministry.com/F/FF/FF257991-E7C9-4475-B65F8B014549D950/B329F0AC-F749-4D47-9CA0C98D3CDC7333.jpg

My question is, which of these Churches has followers in the Ukraine and a real existence? What's their real presence?

All three Churches have received bishops and priests who're probably not even priests at all. What is the Ecumenical Patriarchate going to do if there is a union of Ukrainian Churches and World Orthodoxy decides to recognize it?

I know that Moisey and Ioan's group will never be accepted, but there's serious talking about Kudryanov's Church merging with Filaret's Church if Constantinople agrees to recognize their Church.

Isn't this a very grave issue?

Thanks!!!
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« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2006, 10:54:02 PM »

This is a good post.  It's similar to a discussion my wife and I had this evening.  I'll try not to be too long winded.  The Orthodox church is the true church.  We are supposed to be doing things right, hence our name.  After 2000 years, why haven't we been able to be one church throughout the world, Huh let alone the US Huh  Why do the heirarchs tell us that if there isn't 'your ethnic church' nearby, you should attend the closest one to you and then there is more than one bishop per city Huh  I understand it that it shouldn't be that way.  I know that some of my posts have the tendency to start arguments.  This is not the reason for this post.  This has been on my mind and troubling me for quite a while.  So why don't we have unity, at least in the US as a start, then the world Huh  The Catholics have one Pope.  We have many Patriarchs.  More chiefs than Indians.  Not enough Indians (priests).  I am not well versed in these questions as some of you, that's why I seek your knowledge.  Thank you.
PB

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« Last Edit: October 15, 2006, 10:55:43 PM by Psalti Boy » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2006, 11:06:49 PM »

Ukrainian Orthodox - Kiev Patriarchate 19%, Orthodox (no particular jurisdiction) 16%, Ukrainian Orthodox - Moscow Patriarchate 9%, Ukrainian Greek Catholic 6%, Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox 1.7%, Protestant, Jewish, none 38% (2004 est.)

That sort of helps with who follows what, but thats a lot more atheists than I expected...
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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2006, 01:01:05 AM »

Mexican, thank you for your interest.
Well, there more Ukrainians on the planet of Venus then in some vagante groups, which claim to be Ukrainian Orthodox. Secondly, awful leadership of Filaret Denisenko when he was the leader of Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Moscow Patriarchate contributed to the current situation. Back then, he was a servant of Moscow and committed many anti-Ukrainian actions. For example, he was strongly opposed to services in Ukrainian. Only when he lost elections of the Patriarch of Moscow in 1990, he a little bit changed his tone. He really re-positioned himself in spring of 1992, when he was suspended by the meeting of UOC-MP bishops in Kharkiv. That was not a sincere change in opinion, just a pure egoism and desire for power. Sure, the status of Filaret's group is very far way from being canonical.
In my own conclusion, based on years of observation, as soon as the Local Orthodox Church in Ukraine will be created, united and recognized, most divisions.
Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church is not limited to Western Ukraine, while it is much stronger there. I have a lot of respect to this jurisdiction, while I am a little bit careful regarding personality of Metropolitan Methodios Kudryakov. His predeccessor, Patriarch Dimitriy Yarema of blessed memory, was a real servant of God with a great erudition. I believe that with time UAOC will achieve recognition in one form or another.
Also, I am very concerned regarding Metropolitan Agathangel Savin, officially third in charge at UOC-MP. De-facto, he is second in charge, because the the hierarch #2, Metropoltian Nikodim Rusnak, while a sincere beleiver and a good hierarch, is 85 years old and in failing health. Metropolitan Agathangel Savin is a completely immoral individual, a hater of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, a Russian chauvinist, with a very evil reputation.
I just put some explanation regarding Moisey's group here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=9183.msg135122;topicseen#msg135122
The groups of Ioan Notaro and Michael Javchak do not have a real presence in Ukraine at all. The latter one used to have lastname Champion. His group just a breakdown fraction. I guess they are tracing his origin from Bishop Gregory Ohiychuk, who split in 1940's, but I am not completely sure in that. In any case, by the aforementioned division, Bishop Gregory Ohiychuk just created a vagante group.
In terms of a solution, the ideal way would be a Pan-Orthodox Council, which would give a total independence to the Orthodox Church in Ukraine, support the election of the Patriarch of Ukraine, defrock corrupted individuals, unite UAOC, UOC-MP, the (2) dioceses of ROCOR there and those followers of UOC-KP, who would wish to unite. UOC-KP hierarchs have to be re-ordained. Of course, such action should transpire only with the blessing of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.
Regarding canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Churches outside of Ukraine, UOC of USA and diaspora and UOC of Canada belong to the Patriarchate of Constantinople.
UOC of USA (http://www.uocofusa.org) has (3) dioceses with centers in Pittsburgh (Metropolitan Constantine Buggan), New York / South Bound Brook, NJ (Archbishop Anthony Shcherba) and Chicago (Archbishop Vsevolod Maidansky). The diocese outside of USA are in Australia and New Zealand (Archbishop Ioan Derewianka), Curitiba, Brazil with authority for parishes in Brazil, Paraguay, Argentina and Venezuela (Bishop Jeremiah Ferens) and London, UK with authority for parishes in UK, France, Belgium and Germany (Bishop Andriy Peshko).
UOC of Canada (www.uocc.ca)has centers of dioceses in Winnipeg (Metroploitan John Stinka), Toronto (Archbishop Yuriy Kalistchuk) and edmonton (vacant).
All hierarchs of UOC-USA and UOC of Canada deserved the highest evaluation. Hopefully, soon we will have some convert Bishop as well.
Of course, there are Ukrainians in many other canonical jurisdictions as well as many non-Ukrainians in canonical Ukrainian jurisdictions. For example, Metroplotian Herman Swaiko of OCA is Ukrainian. At the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople other hierarchs of Ukrainian nationality - Bishop Hillarion Rudnyk of Telmissos, an auxuliary Bishop of Greek Orthodox Diocese of Spain and Portugal, who in one time lived in USA and served at UOC-USA and Bishop Michael Storojenko of Claudipolis, an auxiliary Bishop of the Exarchate of Orthodox Parishes of Russian Tradition in Western Europe. Well, I am ready to repeat the statement about the highest eveluation, which of course means that I am ready to say so about non-Ukrainian Hierarchs, who deserve that. As Ozgeorge put here once: "I don't care what race my bishop is, as long as he is Orthodox".
Sorry for being so long-winded.

Edited for spelling and in order to provide a link.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 01:12:44 AM by Starlight » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2008, 09:25:17 PM »

Dear Brothers,
Let us pray for all Orthodox Jurisdictions, especially in US, Ukraine and in the whole World. Once, Apostoles complained to our Lord Jesus Christ about others, which also were involved in the proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and Jesus answered: if they are not against us, they are with us. In all Jurisdictions, if we look carefuly, we will find some problems with Orthodoxy, for example, Antiochians allow to remaried for Priest whose wife died. Some others Jurisdictions are lookind for Ecumenism, others Orthodox Priests do not look anymore like Orthodox, some Greek Priests looks like Roman Priests, shaved  smooth. We can go on and on and will find many propblems with Orthodox canons in all Jurisdictions. My point is, that everybody makes from time to time mistakes, (sins). Let us look into our Lord Jesus Christ, and just say: Lord have mercy on us, (On all Christians). If we are going to concentrate on our mistakes, we will just go around the Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ, and say like one of the great Scientist, which was attending important symposium on modern Physics: namely, he was concentrating on some very minor subject, by the time symposium was over, he said: I just missed whole thing!

All Glory be to Jesus Christ!

kind regards to all Dear Brothers in Christ

krystofor
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« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2008, 02:58:39 AM »

  After 2000 years, why haven't we been able to be one church throughout the world, Huh let alone the US Huh  ....
 So why don't we have unity, at least in the US as a start, then the world Huh
This is a question that occurred to me also. For example, in Greece, do they have Russian Orthodox parishes, Serbian Orthodox parishes, Bulgarian Orthodox parishes, Ukrainian Orthodox parishes, etc. or isn't it just that they have one Greek Orthodox Church in Greece. Similarly, in Russia, don't they have one Russian Orthodox Church in Russia? Why then don't they have one American or North American Orthodox Church in the USA similar to what they have in Greece - one Greek Orthodox Church in Greece, or in Russia - one Russian Orthodox Church in Russia?
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« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2008, 09:25:10 AM »

Dear Starlight, thank you so much, brother, for your most informative post.

Dear group, - I second the above plea for our common prayer. Things that happen in Ukraine are so close and personal to me; my wife and I are from there, we still have relatives and many friends living there and we go there at least once in 2 years (next time will be this coming July). We are still Ukrainian citizens; even though we have lived in the US for almost 18 years now, we never applied for the U.S. citizenship because we care so much about our home country and want to continue to participate in its continuing journey to real independence, to a most deserved dignified status in the family of world nations.

Indeed, as Starlight correctly pointed out, some "jurisdictions" in Ukraine are tiny and not worth real consideration. The ones that are quite real are the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UOC) (which used to be called UOC-Moscow Patriarchate, but they dropped the ending from their official name, apparently for propagandistic purposes); UOC-Kyiv Patriarchate, and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC). Tragically, only one of them, and exactly the one that has an awful reputation of the Ukrainian office of the Russian Orthodox Church (viewed by very many patriotic Ukrainians as the Kremlin's "Ministry of Religious Affairs" closely affiliated to the current Russian propagandistic machine and secret services) has the canonical status. The other two are still struggling for recognition as canonical Orthodox jurisdictions.

I want to share a story with you, to give you a "taste" of what it means to be Orthodox in the post-1991 independent Ukraine. A number of years ago, my mother-in-law's sister, Raisa, a very lonely widow who was already in her 60-s back then, came to visit her relatives, who were faithful of the UOC-Moscow Patriarchate. At the dinner table, she crossed herself and said, in Ukrainian, "Otche nash, shcho yesy na nebesakh..." ("Our Father, Who art in heaven..." ). And it just so happened that these relatives of Raisa had just atended a service in their church where the priest explained to them that those who pray in vernacular Ukrainian, instead of Old Church Slavonic, are evil nationalists, enemies of the Slavic unity and "Banderites" (S. Bandera was the leader of the guerilla Ukrainian Insurgent Army in the 1940-s, the guerilla force that fought both Germans and Soviets and was later slandered by Stalin's propaganda as Nazi collaborators). The priest had also explained that the people who pray in Ukrainian are false believers, idolaters - because the true God hears only prayers in Old Church Slavonic, -  and they are all on the payroll of such forces of the global evil as Jews, Free Masons, CIA and the US Department of State. So, Raisa's relatives immediately attacked her (quite physically), insulted her and threw her out from their home.

She came back to her own home in tears and kept crying for several days. Then she visited her other relatives and told them the story of her previous visit. But those other relatives happened to be faithful of UOC-Kyiv Patriarchate, and, instead of sympathizing with Raisa, they, again, yelled at her and insulted her, this time for her alleged "weakness" (i.e. that she did not "stand up" against the evil attackers of the Ukrainian Motherland, those vicious Russophiles who, most definitely, must be on the KGB payroll). So, the poor woman cried again, and went back to her own home again in tears, and severed all communication with both families for many months.

On a brighter side... I am currently corresponding with one wonderful Ukrainian scholar-historian and pedagogue who lives in Kharkiv, a big industrial city at the very eastern edge of Ukraine, the city that has been most atrociously "Russified" for centuries. He wrote me recently that in the private secondary school ("gymnazija") where he teaches, more and more youngsters turn to Orthodoxy each year. Somewhat paradoxically, the UAOC gains popularity - maybe because both UOC-MP and UOC-KP are terribly politicized and the UAOC tries to remain beyond politics.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2008, 09:29:37 AM by Heorhij » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2008, 10:59:46 AM »

This is a question that occurred to me also. For example, in Greece, do they have Russian Orthodox parishes, Serbian Orthodox parishes, Bulgarian Orthodox parishes, Ukrainian Orthodox parishes, etc. or isn't it just that they have one Greek Orthodox Church in Greece. Similarly, in Russia, don't they have one Russian Orthodox Church in Russia? Why then don't they have one American or North American Orthodox Church in the USA similar to what they have in Greece - one Greek Orthodox Church in Greece, or in Russia - one Russian Orthodox Church in Russia?
there should be one Church, but, btw, they do not have one Church in Greece, for similiar reasons:history and politics.  In the North and some islands, the EP, not the CoG, is the Church.
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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2008, 11:54:14 AM »

there should be one Church, but, btw, they do not have one Church in Greece, for similiar reasons:history and politics.  In the North and some islands, the EP, not the CoG, is the Church.

There is no canonical reason to only have one church in a given country, the canonical prohibitions simply insist on one church and one bishop in a given geographical area. As the jurisdictions of the Oecumenical Throne and the Church of Greece to no overlap there are no canonical problems with the situation.
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« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2008, 07:11:34 PM »

Thank you for this information, very much.  While I was quite aware that there were multiple jurisdictions in Ukraine, (I had thought there were three),  I didn't realize how gross of a canonical mess it was.  The poster who suggested the convening of an extraordinary synod by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, triggered my mind to thoughts about a significant administrative problem faced today by the Eastern Orthodox Church(es).

I believe the most significant administrative problem facing Orthodoxy today, is the disputes between the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Church of Moscow, although I do not know if the administrative disputes are between the Churches or are more of a rivalry between Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew and Patriarch Alexii.  These disputes were grossly manifested last year, when Alexii sent a letter to the European Union, in response to their support for the civil rights of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, addressed to the Turkish "republic," criticising their reference to Bartholomew as the "leader" of the Orthodox, although he did acknowledge that Bartholomew is the "First Among Equals" of Orthodoxy; and when the representatives of the Moscow Patriarchate removed themselves from the dialogue meeting with the Roman Catholics in Ravena (sp), Italy, because, part of the representation of the Ecumenical Patriarchate included clergy from its Estonian jurisdiction.  Representatives of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Moscow Patriarchate, should meet, discuss, compromise and resolve their differences.  Perhaps both Bartholomew and Alexii should do likewise.  They must resolve their differences and cease arguing like a couple of teenagers.  I posted this comment here, because I think Bartholomew could use intervention into this Ukrainian Orthodox ecclesiastical mess as leverage in the talks with the largest Eastern Orthodox Church.  I don't mean to be so polemical, but something has to stop this childlike behavior that is characterizing the relations of these two, prominent, Orthodox Churches.  I have read Roman Catholic books, that have touted these disputes to explain why no one can agree to anything on behalf of Orthodoxy, due to this problem.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2008, 07:12:38 PM by BTRAKAS » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2008, 07:33:11 PM »

Thank you for this information, very much.  While I was quite aware that there were multiple jurisdictions in Ukraine, (I had thought there were three),  I didn't realize how gross of a canonical mess it was.  The poster who suggested the convening of an extraordinary synod by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, triggered my mind to thoughts about a significant administrative problem faced today by the Eastern Orthodox Church(es).

I believe the most significant administrative problem facing Orthodoxy today, is the disputes between the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Church of Moscow, although I do not know if the administrative disputes are between the Churches or are more of a rivalry between Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew and Patriarch Alexii.  These disputes were grossly manifested last year, when Alexii sent a letter to the European Union, in response to their support for the civil rights of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, addressed to the Turkish "republic," criticising their reference to Bartholomew as the "leader" of the Orthodox, although he did acknowledge that Bartholomew is the "First Among Equals" of Orthodoxy; and when the representatives of the Moscow Patriarchate removed themselves from the dialogue meeting with the Roman Catholics in Ravena (sp), Italy, because, part of the representation of the Ecumenical Patriarchate included clergy from its Estonian jurisdiction.  Representatives of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Moscow Patriarchate, should meet, discuss, compromise and resolve their differences.  Perhaps both Bartholomew and Alexii should do likewise.  They must resolve their differences and cease arguing like a couple of teenagers.  I posted this comment here, because I think Bartholomew could use intervention into this Ukrainian Orthodox ecclesiastical mess as leverage in the talks with the largest Eastern Orthodox Church.  I don't mean to be so polemical, but something has to stop this childlike behavior that is characterizing the relations of these two, prominent, Orthodox Churches.  I have read Roman Catholic books, that have touted these disputes to explain why no one can agree to anything on behalf of Orthodoxy, due to this problem.

I agree, but there is also a different aspect to this problem, other than just the struggle for influence between the two patriarchs - the struggle between the Western civilization and the "Eurasian" Russia. The latter is the "colossus with the feet of clay" that opposes everything "western," everything that comes from the US-NATO-"democracy"-"liberalism"-etc. 
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« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2008, 12:26:36 AM »

Thank you very much.

Heorhij and BTRAKAS. I totally agree with your evaluation of problems.

Heorhij, that was such a sad story...

On a brighter side, in last monthes, the ideas for canonical autocephaly in UOC-MP became much stronger. The same people within UOC-MP (I really don't want to use such words as "fraction" here), struggle against ritualistic and cultic misinterpretation of Orthodoxy, promotion of absolute power of customs and stupid heretical teachings.
Ordination to episcopacy of some bright and energetic clergy within UOC-MP can be noted as a set of good signs. Also, Bishop Ippolit Hil'ko, a hater of Ukraine and the West, with very autoritarian style, has been fired by the Synod of UOC-MP.
Hopefully, one day it will be unification of all healthy forces, which are now in UAOC, UOC-MP and even in UOC-KP. Bishop Agathangel Pashkovsky, who led ROCOR diocese in Ukraine (please do not confuse him with Metropolitan Agathangel Savin), had all chances to become one of the founding fathers of Local Orthodox Chruch in Ukraine. Instead, he choose to start a new schism. Really sad.

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