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Author Topic: Do we have alot in common?  (Read 8570 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 14, 2006, 12:36:56 PM »

I love my brethren from the Eastern Orthodox Churches. Their liturgy is beautiful. Their focus on Theosis, which Catholics also believe in, is astounding. I appreciate their sacraments, veneration of our Holy Mother Mary, and love of the Fathers of the Church. Most especially, I love the Christocentric nature of the faith, another thing that we have in common. However, some who are neither Catholic nor Orthodox, or some who are not well educated in the faith view the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches as basically the same thing. I think it is matter of ignorance on their account. Personally, although I believe we share a common Apostolic CORE to our faith respective faiths,  the East and the West have been growing apart since the days of the Apostles. This, of course culminated in the Schism which divided Christendom into two separate bodies, one being the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church and the other not (I will leave out the discussion about which one is Christ's Church because that is another issue). Even since the schism, we have grown further and further apart with the development the incompatible philosophies of Gregory Palamas and St. Thomas Aquinas. Now, it seems, that even the basic philosophies of our faiths are entirely different. The Catholic Church focuses on the objectivity and know-ability of truth. We believe in a realist philosophy and that the world is rational and through this rational and orderly world, we can know with certainty that their is one, perfect, all power, transcendent and holy God who is the primary cause of all things. The Eastern Orthodox appear to reject these ideas and focus on mystery. While the Catholic Church acknowledges the necessity of an experience of God to grow in holiness, we reject experience as a valid test for truth. From talking on these forums, it appears that experience is the number one indicator of determining the truth of the Christian faith for the the Eastern Orthodox (correct me if I am wrong). While Catholics acknowledge that God is super-rational, we deny that he is irrational. I have heard Eastern Orthodox Christians, on the other hand, state that God is both irrational and rational at the same time. Then of the course, there is the philosophical disagreement in which Catholics believe God is wholly simple and has no parts, where as the Eastern Orthodox see a difference between God's essence and his uncreated energies. Here we are much more in line with western thought and the Eastern Orthodox are more in line with Eastern/Platonic thought. Also, we disagree on issues such as redemption. Catholics believe in both Propitiation and Expiation when it comes to the nature of Christ's death on the Cross. The Eastern Orthodox only believe in Expiation. (As a side note, I think Protestants focus more on Propitiation than expiation). In the final analysis, Catholics favor western thought and Eastern Orthodox Christians favor eastern thought. This is not a critique of either way of thinking, nor is it a critique of either Church. Rather it is just an illustration of how different we have become. Catholicism is a western religion. Eastern Orthodoxy is an eastern religion. Will ever the two meet? Unfortunately, I am pessimistic about any future reunion between the two. That is heartbreaking but it seems to me to be the real state of affairs. Any thoughts?
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« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2006, 06:50:46 PM »

In nomine Iesu I offer you continued peace Papist,

Be pure, still, learn to yield, and climb to darkest heights; then you will come o'er all to contemplate your God. - Angelus Silesius

You really should read St. Clare of Assisi, The Cloud of Unknowing, St. Gregory I, our Doctor of the Church Saint John of the Cross, and our dear Saint Teresa of Avila and you would not be so quick to overlook the limits placed on cataphatic theology in our Latin Tradition.

Pax
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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2006, 07:03:20 PM »

Both Orthodox and Catholic faithful worship one and the same God and Savior. While the tragic differences exist, this Common Ground, the greatest from all imagenable things means much more then any differences.
Being an Orthodox, I believe that we should treat other Christians with love and to pray to our God, for whom everything is possible, about the unity in terms of truth.
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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2006, 07:23:58 PM »

"Will ever the two meet? Unfortunately, I am pessimistic about any future reunion between the two. That is heartbreaking but it seems to me to be the real state of affairs. Any thoughts?"

For once we agree completely.
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2006, 07:27:57 PM »

In nomine Iesu I offer you continued peace Papist,

Be pure, still, learn to yield, and climb to darkest heights; then you will come o'er all to contemplate your God. - Angelus Silesius

You really should read St. Clare of Assisi, The Cloud of Unknowing, St. Gregory I, our Doctor of the Church Saint John of the Cross, and our dear Saint Teresa of Avila and you would not be so quick to overlook the limits placed on cataphatic theology in our Latin Tradition.

Pax
I was not critiquing. simply comparing. You must remember that the scholastic view is dogmatic in that Vatican II states that we must believe, as Catholics, that we can know God exists, and we can know this by reason alone. It also teaches that a Catholic must believe that miracles, such as the resurrection, gives evidence for the Christian faith. I am not arguing in favor of this or against this. That is another disscusion. I am just pointing out that this is what our dogma is.
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« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2006, 12:55:43 AM »

I was not critiquing. simply comparing. You must remember that the scholastic view is dogmatic in that Vatican II states that we must believe, as Catholics, that we can know God exists, and we can know this by reason alone. It also teaches that a Catholic must believe that miracles, such as the resurrection, gives evidence for the Christian faith. I am not arguing in favor of this or against this. That is another disscusion. I am just pointing out that this is what our dogma is.

In nomine Iesu I offer you continued peace Papist,

Just remember the Dogmas of Holy Tradition are given to us to illuminate our way along our journey to encounter the Divine; to stare into them for any length of time merely makes one blind and they fail at their intended purpose.

Pax
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« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2006, 08:11:06 AM »

Here we are much more in line with western thought and the Eastern Orthodox are more in line with Eastern/Platonic thought. Also, we disagree on issues such as redemption. Catholics believe in both Propitiation and Expiation when it comes to the nature of Christ's death on the Cross. The Eastern Orthodox only believe in Expiation. (As a side note, I think Protestants focus more on Propitiation than expiation). In the final analysis, Catholics favor western thought and Eastern Orthodox Christians favor eastern thought. This is not a critique of either way of thinking, nor is it a critique of either Church. Rather it is just an illustration of how different we have become. Catholicism is a western religion. Eastern Orthodoxy is an eastern religion. Will ever the two meet? Unfortunately, I am pessimistic about any future reunion between the two. That is heartbreaking but it seems to me to be the real state of affairs. Any thoughts?

Dear Papist,

I promised the moderator of this site that I wouldnt use that word, but since I dont know your name I dont have a chioce but to use it. First off the difference between Roman Catholic and Orthodox teaching on the Redemption is simply that we confess that Christ's sacrafice on the Cross was offered to the Holy Trinity while you believe that it was offered to the Father alone- part of playing down the Holy Spirit that we see in the Filoque and your underdstanding of how the Sacraments come to be. Anybody telling you different is a modernist and an anathemized heretic themselves.

Second of, what do you mean by Eastern Platonic thought? In actual fact out of the two Arisitotle is was more influential in supplying the framework for the Father's to express their neotic vision than Plato. Orthodox theology is based on the direct vision and supra-logical comprehension of Divine Truth through it's uncreated Grace, and not on philosphy and the wisdom of this world. We too believe that God is simple- yet we also (like you?) believe He is Three persons- dont you see how the fallen reason can only confront the ultimate Mystery in the silence of prayer?

Remember also that once upon a time the west looked a lot more "Eastern" in terms of its whole approach- we see movements like Jansenism as late as the 17 th and 18 th centuries which show a great nostalgia for Orthodoxy (one of the leading Jansenists said that the Church went mad after St Bernard of Clairaux!). Seek out what is geniunely Spiritual in Roman Catholicism and you will end up Orthodox.

The other news is that have you not heard of the Balamand agreement?

Theophan.
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« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2006, 08:14:48 AM »

IYou must remember that the scholastic view is dogmatic in that Vatican II states that we must believe, as Catholics, that we can know God exists, and we can know this by reason alone. It also teaches that a Catholic must believe that miracles, such as the resurrection, gives evidence for the Christian faith.

We can know that God exists by reason alone, but what about such mysteries as the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation?
I agree without the Resurrection I would find Christianity hard to accept.

Theophan.
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« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2006, 08:57:38 AM »

I agree without the Resurrection I would find Christianity hard to accept.
Huh There would be nothing to accept. There would be no Christianity if there was no Resurrection. The Resurrection is the basis of the Christian Faith.
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« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2006, 12:58:39 PM »

Huh There would be nothing to accept. There would be no Christianity if there was no Resurrection. The Resurrection is the basis of the Christian Faith.

Tell that to Spong LOL
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« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2006, 01:10:30 PM »

Tell that to Spong LOL

I wouldn't be surprised to hear some Catholic bishops saying the same thing.  I have words very close to this coming from some pulpits in the Catholic Church.  Sadly, with and every passing year that I am Catholic the Catholic Church appears more and more like the Episcopal Church.

Rob
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« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2006, 02:14:00 PM »

In nomine Iesu I offer you continued peace Papist,

Just remember the Dogmas of Holy Tradition are given to us to illuminate our way along our journey to encounter the Divine; to stare into them for any length of time merely makes one blind and they fail at their intended purpose.

Pax
The Dogmas of Holy Tradition are truth and flow from him who is Truth itself. To become well aquainted with them and to apply them to one's life is come to know our Divine Savior himself. To meditate upon them for any length of times makes one blind to the world but better capable of seeing Him who is Truth.
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« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2006, 02:26:10 PM »

" Sadly, with and every passing year that I am Catholic the Catholic Church appears more and more like the Episcopal Church "

I agree...the Roman Rite Church in America is flooded by illicit acts... and don't ask for particulars...for they are widely known.

james
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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2006, 02:38:21 PM »

Dear Papist,

I promised the moderator of this site that I wouldnt use that word, but since I dont know your name I dont have a chioce but to use it.
LOL. You are free to call me papist. I picked the name because I thought it was funny. There was a time when I took it as an insult but I accept it as a term that describes something I am vary proud of: I am loyal to the Pope, Christ's vicar on earth, the steward of the house in Christ's Kingdom. Of course, you must remember, that what is more important to me than being a Papist, is that fact that I am a Christian, a follower of the Divine King and LORD of the Universe. However, I believe that to be a full fledged Christian, one should be a papist. Smiley But my name is Christopher. But you may call me what you wish.
First off the difference between Roman Catholic and Orthodox teaching on the Redemption is simply that we confess that Christ's sacrafice on the Cross was offered to the Holy Trinity while you believe that it was offered to the Father alone- part of playing down the Holy Spirit that we see in the Filoque and your underdstanding of how the Sacraments come to be. Anybody telling you different is a modernist and an anathemized heretic themselves.
Correct me if I am wrong, but don't the Eastern Orthodox reject the idea of Atonement, i.e. propitiation?
Second of, what do you mean by Eastern Platonic thought? In actual fact out of the two Arisitotle is was more influential in supplying the framework for the Father's to express their neotic vision than Plato. Orthodox theology is based on the direct vision and supra-logical comprehension of Divine Truth through it's uncreated Grace, and not on philosphy and the wisdom of this world. We too believe that God is simple- yet we also (like you?) believe He is Three persons- dont you see how the fallen reason can only confront the ultimate Mystery in the silence of prayer?
It is my understaning that the Eastern Orthodox believe that God deals with the world through his "uncreated energies" something that the Eastern Orthodox believe is separate from God's essences. In this way, God is not seen a entirely simply. Furthermore, By dealing with the created world through something separate from himself, then God would be more like the Platonic god who does not deal directly with the world but rather from separate demi-urges. Thus the Eastern Orthodox view, championed by Gregory Palams is much more platonic. The Contrast is the Thomistic/Aristotilian view in western Christianity in which God is entirely simple. There is not a distinction in God between his essence and engergies because they are the same thing. In God, all of his attributes are one. The only distinction in God, according to western thought, is between the three persons/hypostasises but even these differences are not differences in being but in relation between persons. As for comprehending the divine Trinity, I do agree with you that such a mystery is beyon human reason, and we would not know it to be true apart from supernatural revelation. So, yes this mystery should be approached in silent prayer, but, we should describe what we can concerning this mystery in the most rational and precise language possible as was done in the councils. Food for thought though: Some western Christians are starting to wonder if it can be demonstrated philosophically that God is three persons. They are starting to think that there might be a rational way to do this. If there is, it would still maintain that the Trinity is in the realm of mystery because proving it is so would not exhaust the mystery, nor would it allow us to understand the mystery which is beyond human comprehension.
Remember also that once upon a time the west looked a lot more "Eastern" in terms of its whole approach- we see movements like Jansenism as late as the 17 th and 18 th centuries which show a great nostalgia for Orthodoxy (one of the leading Jansenists said that the Church went mad after St Bernard of Clairaux!). Seek out what is geniunely Spiritual in Roman Catholicism and you will end up Orthodox.
I would not claim that any similarities between jansenism and Eastern Orthodoxy is a good thing. Janesenism was painfully heretical. I have way to much respect for the Eastern Orthodox to compare them to Jansenists.  Furthermore, It is my opion that the Eastern Orthodox were much more like the Eastern Catholic Churches of today at one time, especially with their appeals to and defense of the papacy and the like. For an Eastern Orthodox to seek out what is genuinely true in Eastern Orthodoxy is to become Eastern Catholic.
The other news is that have you not heard of the Balamand agreement?

Theophan.
No, I have not. please do share. Many blessings in Christ.
P.S. The original intention of this thread was not to debate these points but to discuss whether or not we really have that much in common. Do you think we do? I am not sure I do.
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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2006, 02:41:31 PM »

" Sadly, with and every passing year that I am Catholic the Catholic Church appears more and more like the Episcopal Church "

I agree...the Roman Rite Church in America is flooded by illicit acts... and don't ask for particulars...for they are widely known.

james
That is why I hope that this current Holy Father can make it clear that the American Latin Church is in schism. Only by revealing the wound do I think that it can be healed. That being said, I think that many of the Eastern Catholic Churches are in some kind of schism as well,  with their refusal to accept Papal authority as it is defined in the first Vatican Council. Hopefully, we Catholics will soon find our St. Athanasius to deal with the modern crisis in the Church.
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« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2006, 02:44:14 PM »

I wouldn't be surprised to hear some Catholic bishops saying the same thing.  I have words very close to this coming from some pulpits in the Catholic Church.  Sadly, with and every passing year that I am Catholic the Catholic Church appears more and more like the Episcopal Church.

Rob
But hope has come, my fellow Christian!!! The new Bishops that have been seleted by His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI have been amazing men, orthodox, God-loving, and devout. The liberals are on their way out. They are a dying breed.
Many blessings in Christ
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« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2006, 03:17:59 PM »

Quote
The liberals are on their way out. They are a dying breed.

But two generations now have been raised as liberal Catholics - that is the only Catholicism that they know.  People at my former Catholic parish would be a loss if their liturgical dancers, choir music they clap along with and such were to be removed from them. 

Another myth floating around out there is that younger Catholics are vastly conservative.  I live in the epicenter of Life teen - none of these people are conservative.  Even when I was still Catholic I thought Msgr. Dale was a sham... and I think that opinion has been vidicated. 

Not to simply rant for the sake of ranting, but I don't think it is realistic to expect a grand return to traditional Roman Catholicism anytime soon.  While I do think the election of Pope Benedict is a positive step, it is too little too late. 
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« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2006, 03:29:49 PM »

But hope has come, my fellow Christian!!! The new Bishops that have been seleted by His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI have been amazing men, orthodox, God-loving, and devout. The liberals are on their way out. They are a dying breed.
Many blessings in Christ

Maybe . . . .

However, the same was thought about the bishops appointed by John Paul II and far too many have faltered in their duties.  Shoot, even John Paul II shirked his responsibility to hold bishops accountable.  What good is the Petrine office if not to steer the Catholic Church properly?  The Vatican knew about these abuses and did nothing to stop them.

Oh, the face of the episcopacy may be changing in the Catholic Church but the damage has been done and it is doubtful that healing will ever occur.  Why?  Because of the deep seeded nature of the wound.  Diocese after diocese has embraced such heresy as goddess worship, women running parishes, questionable teachings on sacramental life and so forth.  Even if all of the bishops were to come around and start practicing orthodoxy the priests and parishes, for the most part, are bastions of heterodox behavior and practices.

I, for one, am not encouraged.  Benedict, great man that he is, hasn't really admonished any bishop for his scandalous behavior.  I mean, if he is what the Catholic Church claims he is, then he has an obligation to right the wrongs.  If he isn't what the Catholic Church claims he is then he is just another bishop with no authority other than that which he exercises within his own diocese.  That, in the end, begs the question concerning the claims of the papacy, etc.  Truly, I see by John Paul II's inaction and Benedict's inaction a impotency of the papacy and validation of thos claiming that the papacy means nothing.

So, I do not agree with you lofty assessment.

Rob
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« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2006, 03:45:02 PM »

.Correct me if I am wrong, but don't the Eastern Orthodox reject the idea of Atonement, i.e. propitiation?

Dear Christopher,

I will correct you. You are wrong about this but thats not your fault. Basically Met Anthony Krapovitsky of possibly sorrowful memory has had his heretical ideas on redemption accepted by most of what calls itself Orthodoxy today even though they reject his stand on Soviet power, false ecumenism and sacred Monarchy.

Here is the True Orthodox Dogma of Redemption:

http://romanitas.ru/eng/The%20Mystery%20of%20Redemption.htm

You will see its not that different from what Rome used to teach before Vatitican II.

I cant answer your other points just yet but I would recommend you read St Gregory's Triads. His attack on Plato and Neo-Platonism is quiet blunt.

Theophan.
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« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2006, 03:47:07 PM »

But two generations now have been raised as liberal Catholics - that is the only Catholicism that they know.  People at my former Catholic parish would be a loss if their liturgical dancers, choir music they clap along with and such were to be removed from them.

Indeed!  There is no way to right this ship.  At least half of the Catholics in the United States are used to this kind of liturgy.  If you took this away, all of a sudden. they be at such a huge loss that they would stop going to church.  That would amount to billions of dollars lost in contributions and would leave a Church, already in financial distress because of the sex abuse scandals, financially bankrupt.  Does anyone honestly think that the Catholic bishops in the United States are going to create a situation in which this occurs?

Another myth floating around out there is that younger Catholics are vastly conservative.  I live in the epicenter of Life teen - none of these people are conservative.  Even when I was still Catholic I thought Msgr. Dale was a sham... and I think that opinion has been vidicated.

True.  The Life Teen movement has introduced even more Protestant innovations into liturgical worship.  One of the main things that is proffered in Life Teen is bringing everyone up around the altar to celebrate Mass.  Everyone is invited, even the non-Catholic friends of the Catholic youth.  Additionally, the priest that started Life Teen has had questionable dealings with men himself.  I have read accounts of him in hot tubs, nude, with young men.  In my opion, not a good example to start a teen movement on.

Not to simply rant for the sake of ranting, but I don't think it is realistic to expect a grand return to traditional Roman Catholicism anytime soon.  While I do think the election of Pope Benedict is a positive step, it is too little too late. 

Pope Benedict is a great man.  However, he is not exercising his position the way that the Catholic Church has defined it.  What I mean by this is the Catholic Church has stated that the pope is the head of the Catholic Church and that the pope is the head of the bishops.  That he has the right and obligation to oversee his fellow bishops.  By not excommunicating those teaching heresy and promulgating the sex abuse scandal he is not doing what the Catholic Church teaches about him.  Therefore, the "Office of Peter" means nothing in the Catholic Church anymore.

Rob
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« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2006, 03:49:06 PM »

Janesenism was painfully heretical. I have way to much respect for the Eastern Orthodox to compare them to Jansenists.

What do you know about them though? They were heroic but misguided monastics battling the sentimentalizing and centralizing powers of the Jesuits and their hypocritical and down right dishonest postition on Papal power. They were the western Church as it existed in the time of Bernard of Clairaux.

Theophan.
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« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2006, 06:24:54 PM »

But two generations now have been raised as liberal Catholics - that is the only Catholicism that they know.  People at my former Catholic parish would be a loss if their liturgical dancers, choir music they clap along with and such were to be removed from them. 

Another myth floating around out there is that younger Catholics are vastly conservative.  I live in the epicenter of Life teen - none of these people are conservative.  Even when I was still Catholic I thought Msgr. Dale was a sham... and I think that opinion has been vidicated. 

Not to simply rant for the sake of ranting, but I don't think it is realistic to expect a grand return to traditional Roman Catholicism anytime soon.  While I do think the election of Pope Benedict is a positive step, it is too little too late. 
Even as a traditional Catholic, I do not believe that Life Teen is a bad thing. I just think it needs reform. In fact, Life Teen has taken steps towards refrom to come more into line with liturgical norms. As for the return of traditional Catholicism... Like I said, younger Catholics like myself are vastly more conservative than our parents. I am a traditionalist Catholic, while my parents were charismatic. My room mate is also a traditionalist and his parents are not even practicing Catholics. We see that the "spirit of vatican II" is just a sham and want a return to the letter of vatican II. Every new bishop that His Holiness has chosen for the USA has been amazing and they appear to be fighting for the revival of orthodox Catholicism in the USA and for the revival of the Tridentine Liturgy. Furthermore, it looks like His Holiness has just signed off on the idea of a universal indult for the old mass. Hope is indeed here.
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« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2006, 06:29:19 PM »

What do you know about them though? They were heroic but misguided monastics battling the sentimentalizing and centralizing powers of the Jesuits and their hypocritical and down right dishonest postition on Papal power. They were the western Church as it existed in the time of Bernard of Clairaux.

Theophan.

LOL. If they fought against Papal power and the Jesuits at the time, then they are definitely not heroic. LOL Cheesy
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« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2006, 06:31:32 PM »

Dear Christopher,

I will correct you. You are wrong about this but thats not your fault. Basically Met Anthony Krapovitsky of possibly sorrowful memory has had his heretical ideas on redemption accepted by most of what calls itself Orthodoxy today even though they reject his stand on Soviet power, false ecumenism and sacred Monarchy.

Here is the True Orthodox Dogma of Redemption:

http://romanitas.ru/eng/The%20Mystery%20of%20Redemption.htm

You will see its not that different from what Rome used to teach before Vatitican II.

I cant answer your other points just yet but I would recommend you read St Gregory's Triads. His attack on Plato and Neo-Platonism is quiet blunt.

Theophan.

Interesting. I have heard very strict and conservative Eastern Orthodox Christians state that the atonement is heresey. Take a look a the posts concerning this issue on the Eastern Christianity sub-forum over on Catholic Answers. Fr. Ambrose, a very conservitive, anti-Latin priest-monk from the ROCOR comdemns the atonement as a western innovation.
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« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2006, 06:45:02 PM »

Maybe . . . .

However, the same was thought about the bishops appointed by John Paul II and far too many have faltered in their duties.  Shoot, even John Paul II shirked his responsibility to hold bishops accountable.  What good is the Petrine office if not to steer the Catholic Church properly?  The Vatican knew about these abuses and did nothing to stop them.

Oh, the face of the episcopacy may be changing in the Catholic Church but the damage has been done and it is doubtful that healing will ever occur.  Why?  Because of the deep seeded nature of the wound.  Diocese after diocese has embraced such heresy as goddess worship, women running parishes, questionable teachings on sacramental life and so forth.  Even if all of the bishops were to come around and start practicing orthodoxy the priests and parishes, for the most part, are bastions of heterodox behavior and practices.

I, for one, am not encouraged.  Benedict, great man that he is, hasn't really admonished any bishop for his scandalous behavior.  I mean, if he is what the Catholic Church claims he is, then he has an obligation to right the wrongs.  If he isn't what the Catholic Church claims he is then he is just another bishop with no authority other than that which he exercises within his own diocese.  That, in the end, begs the question concerning the claims of the papacy, etc.  Truly, I see by John Paul II's inaction and Benedict's inaction a impotency of the papacy and validation of thos claiming that the papacy means nothing.

So, I do not agree with you lofty assessment.

Rob
Our blessed LORD Jesus Christ is the divine physician and is capable of healing all wounds, no matter how deep they go. Besides, I am still holding out for the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
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« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2006, 07:36:44 PM »

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Even as a traditional Catholic, I do not believe that Life Teen is a bad thing. I just think it needs reform. In fact, Life Teen has taken steps towards refrom to come more into line with liturgical norms.

I'm from and live one parish over from where Life Teen was founded - so I have a lot of first hand experience dealing with them.  That is, unfortunately, the youth of the Catholic Church -the idea that there is some conservative revival is just unrealistic hope.  For a more realistic picture of today's Catholic youth, go to campus Newman Center where you are likely to find pro-homosexuality groups and groups devoted to every other popular leftist cause - here is your conservative youth setting the church back on the right path!

Quote
Every new bishop that His Holiness has chosen for the USA has been amazing and they appear to be fighting for the revival of orthodox Catholicism in the USA and for the revival of the Tridentine Liturgy.

I think Pope Benedict is playing the same game as Pope John Paul II - appoint a few conservatives, give some lip service to traditional things yet do nothing in reality to stop radical liberals from doing whatever they please.  For all the hype of the Petrine office, the Petrine office hasn't been able to stop chaos from erupting within Catholicism.   

Quote
I have heard very strict and conservative Eastern Orthodox Christians state that the atonement is heresey. Take a look a the posts concerning this issue on the Eastern Christianity sub-forum over on Catholic Answers. Fr. Ambrose, a very conservitive, anti-Latin priest-monk from the ROCOR comdemns the atonement as a western innovation.

My take on this based on some writings of Fr. Seraphim Rose and my own time spent questioning various priests and monastics is that the mainline Orthodox position is none of the above.  Atonement is one anology (as in one of many) to describe the Christ-event, but the problem in Western Christendom is using atonement as the SOLE way of understanding and view the Christ-event.  In Orthodoxy the primary way of viewing the Christ-event is that Christ came as the great healer and the church is the hospital (for this Metr. Hierotheos Vlachos' Orthodox Spirituality is a very good source, not to be confused with other books of the same title but different authors).  Some Orthodox are just giddy with zeal and xenophobia to reject and condemn anything that Catholics might believe (honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if some of these types question the divinity of Christ because the Latins believe in it).  Hence the current situation in Orthodoxy today.  But, for the time being it is an open issue with well respected clergy being of differing opinions on the matter.   
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« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2006, 07:48:48 PM »

I'm from and live one parish over from where Life Teen was founded - so I have a lot of first hand experience dealing with them.  That is, unfortunately, the youth of the Catholic Church -the idea that there is some conservative revival is just unrealistic hope.  For a more realistic picture of today's Catholic youth, go to campus Newman Center where you are likely to find pro-homosexuality groups and groups devoted to every other popular leftist cause - here is your conservative youth setting the church back on the right path!
My experience is that people such as those you described eventually fall away from the Church leaving the kind of people that I am talking about.
I think Pope Benedict is playing the same game as Pope John Paul II - appoint a few conservatives, give some lip service to traditional things yet do nothing in reality to stop radical liberals from doing whatever they please.  For all the hype of the Petrine office, the Petrine office hasn't been able to stop chaos from erupting within Catholicism.   
There is no reason to assume this. Pope Benedict is much more conserative than Pope John Paul. He is changing the Church by place conservative bishops. John Paul did not put much work into selecting bishops, whereas B16 is. But he does not come down with a heavy hammer because I don't think he wants to risk schism.

My take on this based on some writings of Fr. Seraphim Rose and my own time spent questioning various priests and monastics is that the mainline Orthodox position is none of the above.  Atonement is one anology (as in one of many) to describe the Christ-event, but the problem in Western Christendom is using atonement as the SOLE way of understanding and view the Christ-event.  In Orthodoxy the primary way of viewing the Christ-event is that Christ came as the great healer and the church is the hospital (for this Metr. Hierotheos Vlachos' Orthodox Spirituality is a very good source, not to be confused with other books of the same title but different authors).  Some Orthodox are just giddy with zeal and xenophobia to reject and condemn anything that Catholics might believe (honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if some of these types question the divinity of Christ because the Latins believe in it).  Hence the current situation in Orthodoxy today.  But, for the time being it is an open issue with well respected clergy being of differing opinions on the matter.   
Interesting. I did not know that their was differing view points among the Eastern Orthodox concerning this issue.  We in the Catholic Church accept the other analogies as well. I just think that atonement theology takes a place of prominace. Remember, we refer to Christ as the divine physician.
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« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2006, 08:42:59 PM »

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Interesting. I did not know that their was differing view points among the Eastern Orthodox concerning this issue.  We in the Catholic Church accept the other analogies as well. I just think that atonement theology takes a place of prominace. Remember, we refer to Christ as the divine physician.

The role of divine physician is not treated in nearly the same way as the Orthodox tend to view it.  Google "Hierotheos Vlachos" and skim through some of his works that are online if you'd like to see first hand how the Orthodox approach this matter differently.  There certainly are some subtle nuances here that lead to very different expressions. 
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« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2006, 09:05:05 PM »

nope not an Iota of commonality between us. And lets hope it will stay like that...
Orthodoxy or Death!
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« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2006, 09:15:21 PM »

Even as a traditional Catholic, I do not believe that Life Teen is a bad thing. I just think it needs reform. In fact, Life Teen has taken steps towards refrom to come more into line with liturgical norms. As for the return of traditional Catholicism... Like I said, younger Catholics like myself are vastly more conservative than our parents. I am a traditionalist Catholic, while my parents were charismatic. My room mate is also a traditionalist and his parents are not even practicing Catholics. We see that the "spirit of vatican II" is just a sham and want a return to the letter of vatican II. Every new bishop that His Holiness has chosen for the USA has been amazing and they appear to be fighting for the revival of orthodox Catholicism in the USA and for the revival of the Tridentine Liturgy. Furthermore, it looks like His Holiness has just signed off on the idea of a universal indult for the old mass. Hope is indeed here.

Just how many bishops has the new Holy Father appointed in the United States?

Yes, the Pope has authorized on a universal indult for the old Mass but it is up to the discretion of individual bishops to allow its use.  That ain't gonna happen.

Rob
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« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2006, 09:23:38 PM »

My experience is that people such as those you described eventually fall away from the Church leaving the kind of people that I am talking about.

I admire your optimism but this simply is not the case.  These are the very people who are finding their way into upper level positions within each diocese.

There is no reason to assume this. Pope Benedict is much more conserative than Pope John Paul. He is changing the Church by place conservative bishops. John Paul did not put much work into selecting bishops, whereas B16 is. But he does not come down with a heavy hammer because I don't think he wants to risk schism.

But this is precisely what needs to happen if the Catholic Church is to survive.  When you exterminate rats from a building you don't leave a few and call it good.  You root out or kill the entire lot and then you seal up the holes they crawled in through.  Again, I don't think that Benedict has had much of an opportunity to install all that many bishops in the United States in the little over a year that he has been pontiff.
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« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2006, 09:48:16 PM »

There is no reason to assume this. Pope Benedict is much more conserative than Pope John Paul. He is changing the Church by place conservative bishops. John Paul did not put much work into selecting bishops, whereas B16 is. But he does not come down with a heavy hammer because I don't think he wants to risk schism.

Apparently not.  Benedict XVI appointed George H. Niederauer as the Archbishop of San Francisco.  Niederauer is very pro-homosexual and has recently started to allow the Archdiocese of San Francisco to start allowing adoption to homosexual couples.  Doesn't sound very conservative to me.

Rob
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« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2006, 09:54:01 PM »

The role of divine physician is not treated in nearly the same way as the Orthodox tend to view it.  Google "Hierotheos Vlachos" and skim through some of his works that are online if you'd like to see first hand how the Orthodox approach this matter differently.  There certainly are some subtle nuances here that lead to very different expressions. 
Thanks for the suggestion. I will definitely read some of his works.
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« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2006, 09:57:49 PM »

nope not an Iota of commonality between us. And lets hope it will stay like that...
Orthodoxy or Death!
I don't think it goes quite that far.
Similarities:
Scripture and Tradition
Faith and Works
deifying/Sanctifying grace
Belief in the Sacraments
similar, but not identical ecclesiology
The TRINITY!!!!!
The incarnation and hypostatic union
Veneration of the Holy Mother of God
Intercession of the saints
etc...
Although there are many differences, there are definitely some similarities. Many blessings in Christ brother.
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« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2006, 10:00:53 PM »

Just how many bishops has the new Holy Father appointed in the United States?

Yes, the Pope has authorized on a universal indult for the old Mass but it is up to the discretion of individual bishops to allow its use.  That ain't gonna happen.

Rob
I think around ten but I can't be sure. As more of the old liberal bishops retire, I think it is gonna get even better. As for the indult, I really think that it would be too much of a fight for any bishops to oppose it. The pressure from Rome will be great. The reason why it is at the discretion of individual bishops is that the Bishop is always the head Liturgist of his jurisdiction.
Many blessings in Christ.
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« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2006, 10:02:13 PM »

I admire your optimism but this simply is not the case.  These are the very people who are finding their way into upper level positions within each diocese.

But this is precisely what needs to happen if the Catholic Church is to survive.  When you exterminate rats from a building you don't leave a few and call it good.  You root out or kill the entire lot and then you seal up the holes they crawled in through.  Again, I don't think that Benedict has had much of an opportunity to install all that many bishops in the United States in the little over a year that he has been pontiff.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. But I am happy that you faith is important enough to you to take these matters seriously.
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« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2006, 10:03:17 PM »

Apparently not.  Benedict XVI appointed George H. Niederauer as the Archbishop of San Francisco.  Niederauer is very pro-homosexual and has recently started to allow the Archdiocese of San Francisco to start allowing adoption to homosexual couples.  Doesn't sound very conservative to me.

Rob
Could you provide me with a source on this information because I do not know much about this particular situation. All the Bishops that I know of that the Holy Father has appointed are extremely orthodox.
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« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2006, 10:11:28 PM »

Could you provide me with a source on this information because I do not know much about this particular situation. All the Bishops that I know of that the Holy Father has appointed are extremely orthodox.

From the February 2006 edition of First Things magazine:

"Troubling also to those who watch this pontificate with hopeful concern is Benedict’s appointment of George H. Niederauer as Levada’s successor in San Francisco. While in Salt Lake City, Bishop Niederauer had a reputation of being, as it is said, gay-friendly. He broke with other religious leaders in opposing a state constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage. The announcement of his appointment to San Francisco was met with great public rejoicing by Dignity, New Ways Ministry, and other gay advocacy groups."

From the August 27, 2006 edition of the San Francisco Chronicle:

"In an adroit end-run against a Vatican ban on granting adoptions to same-sex couples, Catholic Charities of San Francisco will launch a new project in coming weeks that experts say will lead to the placement of hundreds of foster children around the state every year.

While the agency will no longer directly place children in homes, it will provide staff and financial resources to connect needy children to adoptive parents, expanding from 25 placements a year to assisting in the adoptions of as many as 800 children annually, say those involved in the program.

The move averts a conflict between state anti-discrimination laws and church doctrine, which considers the placement of children with gay or lesbian couples to be "gravely immoral.'' "

Rob


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« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2006, 10:14:15 PM »

From the February 2006 edition of First Things magazine:

"Troubling also to those who watch this pontificate with hopeful concern is Benedict’s appointment of George H. Niederauer as Levada’s successor in San Francisco. While in Salt Lake City, Bishop Niederauer had a reputation of being, as it is said, gay-friendly. He broke with other religious leaders in opposing a state constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage. The announcement of his appointment to San Francisco was met with great public rejoicing by Dignity, New Ways Ministry, and other gay advocacy groups."

From the August 27, 2006 edition of the San Francisco Chronicle:

"In an adroit end-run against a Vatican ban on granting adoptions to same-sex couples, Catholic Charities of San Francisco will launch a new project in coming weeks that experts say will lead to the placement of hundreds of foster children around the state every year.

While the agency will no longer directly place children in homes, it will provide staff and financial resources to connect needy children to adoptive parents, expanding from 25 placements a year to assisting in the adoptions of as many as 800 children annually, say those involved in the program.

The move averts a conflict between state anti-discrimination laws and church doctrine, which considers the placement of children with gay or lesbian couples to be "gravely immoral.'' "

Rob



This is deeply disturbing and seems out of place for His Holiness who has appointed so many traditional Bishops.
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« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2006, 10:21:10 PM »

This is deeply disturbing and seems out of place for His Holiness who has appointed so many traditional Bishops.

He did so on the advice of Archbishop Loverda, who replaced him as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.  Which, by the way, is the same manner that John Paul II utilized to appoint bishops - word of mouth of other bishops.

Here's the thing - the bishopric in the United States will never change if it continues to be an "old boys network" where bishops are appointed on the advice of other bishops.  I don't know how Archbishop Chaput of Denver ever made it through the "old boys network" but is truly a bishop to be modeled.  He is a great shepherd who should be looked at as a shining example of what we, as Catholics, need in our leadership.

Rob
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« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2006, 10:22:58 PM »

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This is deeply disturbing and seems out of place for His Holiness who has appointed so many traditional Bishops.

Or it simply shows that submission to Rome is absolutely not a way to ensure one is preserving their orthodoxy.  The criterion of authentic Christianity must be sought elsewhere.      
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« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2006, 10:37:52 PM »

That universal indult will be null and void in Los Angeles... and Pope Benedict has good intentions but the power in Rome lies with the Curia... this is the 2nd rumor regarding the Mass of Pius V or Missal of 1962 this year...

I rather worship in authenic spirit and truth then appease the progressives and feminists, let them eat croissants I say...

james
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« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2006, 10:48:46 PM »

That universal indult will be null and void in Los Angeles...

james

As will be the case across most of the United States - even in my diocese of Lansing, Michigan.  The bishops in the U.S. have never shown any propensity to follow what the Vatican wants so why should they now.  Certainly, the approval of the indult is a great thing but it is nothing more than hot air and will never become a widespread practice.

Rob
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« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2006, 11:29:37 PM »

Or it simply shows that submission to Rome is absolutely not a way to ensure one is preserving their orthodoxy.  The criterion of authentic Christianity must be sought elsewhere.      
I am sorry but your conclusion does not follow from your premise. At least having a Peterine ministry allows us to know what is and what is not orthodoxy. In my opinion, the Eastern Orthodox have no way of determining what is orthodoxy and have gone into comoplete heresy on certain matters such as the use of artificial birth control and divorce. No, I am sorry my friend, your conclusion does not follow.
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« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2006, 11:30:26 PM »

That universal indult will be null and void in Los Angeles... and Pope Benedict has good intentions but the power in Rome lies with the Curia... this is the 2nd rumor regarding the Mass of Pius V or Missal of 1962 this year...

I rather worship in authenic spirit and truth then appease the progressives and feminists, let them eat croissants I say...

james
Which is why I would never leave the universal Ark of Salvation to worship elsewhere.
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