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Author Topic: Pope to bring back Tridentine Mass?  (Read 4737 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 11, 2006, 01:13:08 PM »

Interesting article...

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2397919,00.html

Pope set to bring back Latin Mass that divided the Church
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent
 
 
 
THE Pope is taking steps to revive the ancient tradition of the Latin Tridentine Mass in Catholic churches worldwide, according to sources in Rome.

Pope Benedict XVI is understood to have signed a universal indult — or permission — for priests to celebrate again the Mass used throughout the Church for nearly 1,500 years. The indult could be published in the next few weeks, sources told The Times.

Use of the Tridentine Mass, parts of which date from the time of St Gregory in the 6th century and which takes its name from the 16th-century Council of Trent, was restricted by most bishops after the reforms of the Second Vatican Council (1962-65).

This led to the introduction of the new Mass in the vernacular to make it more accessible to contemporary audiences. By bringing back Mass in Latin, Pope Benedict is signalling that his sympathies lie with conservatives in the Catholic Church.

One of the most celebrated rebels against its suppression was Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who broke with Rome in 1988 over this and other reforms. He was excommunicated after he consecrated four bishops, one of them British, without permission from the Pope.

Some Lefebvrists, including those in Brazil, have already been readmitted. An indult permitting the celebration of the Tridentine Mass could help to bring remaining Lefebvrists and many other traditional Catholics back to the fold.

The priests of England and Wales are among those sometimes given permission to celebrate the Old Mass according to the 1962 Missal. Tridentine Masses are said regularly at the Oratory and St James’s Spanish Place in London, but are harder to find outside the capital.

The new indult would permit any priest to introduce the Tridentine Mass to his church, anywhere in the world, unless his bishop has explicitly forbidden it in writing.

Catholic bloggers have been anticipating the indult for months. The Cornell Society blog says that Father Martin Edwards, a London priest, was told by Cardinal Joseph Zen, of Hong Kong, that the indult had been signed. Cardinal Zen is alleged to have had this information from the Pope himself in a private meeting.

“There have been false alarms before, not least because within the Curia there are those genuinely well-disposed to the Latin Mass, those who are against and those who like to move groups within the Church like pieces on a chessboard,” a source told The Times. “But hopes have been raised with the new pope. It would fit with what he has said and done on the subject. He celebrated in the old rite, when Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.”

The 1962 Missal issued by Pope John XXIII was the last of several revisions of the 1570 Missal of Pius V. In a lecture in 2001, Cardinal Ratzinger said that it would be “fatal” for the Missal to be “placed in a deep-freeze, left like a national park, a park protected for the sake of a certain kind of people, for whom one leaves available these relics of the past”.

Daphne McLeod, chairman of Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice, a UK umbrella group that campaigns for the restoration of traditional orthodoxy, said: “A lot of young priests are teaching themselves the Tridentine Mass because it is so beautiful and has prayers that go back to the Early Church.”

TRADITIONAL SERVICE

The Tridentine Mass is celebrated entirely in Latin, except for a few words and phrases in Greek and Hebrew. There are long periods of silence and the priest has his back to the congregation

In 1570, Pope St Pius V said that priests could use the Tridentine rite forever, “without scruple of conscience or fear of penalty”

Since the Second Vatican Council, the Tridentine Mass has been almost entirely superseded by the Mass of Pope Paul VI

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who took the lead in opposing the reforms, continued to celebrate the old Mass at his seminary in Ecône, Switzerland, and formed a dissident group. He was excommunicated in 1988

The advantages of the Mass, according to the faithful, are in its uniformity and the fact that movements and gestures are prescribed, so that there is no room for “personalisation”
 
 
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« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2006, 02:20:32 PM »

What about a Tridentine Mass in the vernacular?  I was never RC, but it seems like this is never brought up.
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« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2006, 05:25:14 PM »

What about a Tridentine Mass in the vernacular?  I was never RC, but it seems like this is never brought up.
Possibly because the experience of 50 years of vernacular makes them wary.
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« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2006, 06:53:44 PM »

Possibly because the experience of 50 years of vernacular makes them wary.

Yes, but isn't the NO practically a completely different service (very watered down, priest faces people, other things)?  I don't know - just asking.
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« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2006, 07:36:53 PM »

Quote
Yes, but isn't the NO practically a completely different service (very watered down, priest faces people, other things)?  I don't know - just asking.

Indeed.  The Tridentine mass can be a very beautiful liturgical service and towards the end of its era very positive things were emerging (i.e dialogue masses and greater lay participation).  A vernacular Tridentine Mass would be vastly different than the current missal. 
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« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2006, 08:13:22 PM »

Yes, but isn't the NO practically a completely different service (very watered down, priest faces people, other things)?  I don't know - just asking.
It depends on who you ask. Some see both the Tridentine liturgy and the "Novus Ordo" as two different expressions of the same Roman Rite. If you were to attend the Novus Ordo celebrated according to the rubrics, with the priest celebrating ad orientem (towards the altar, away fromt the people) as was the original intent,  done with reverance, and celebrated in Latin or a proper translation, it is just as reverent as the Tridentine Liturgy.
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« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2006, 08:19:07 PM »

What about a Tridentine Mass in the vernacular?  I was never RC, but it seems like this is never brought up.
I don't think this would happen. Although I  personally would have no problem with it, I could see most other traditional Catholics being horrified by the idea. One of the reasons that they want the Tridentine liturgy back is because it is in Latin. The language is considered sacred, as well as the language of the Church. Another reason is because the liturgy is in Latin, it makes it difficult for priests to mess up the ligurgy by changing the prayers. Finally, the Latin Liturgy allows for a unity and uniformity in prayer around the world. I could attend a Tridentine Liturgy in the USA and then one in Germany and they would be the same. I personally am very excited and hope that the Trindentine ligurgy will find a much more prominent place in the Church. God bless.
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« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2006, 10:17:26 PM »

I'm sorry, but I can only support the Roman Mass in its ORIGINAL language--Greek. Wink  I am going to form the Society of Saint Pius I to promote my ideas.

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« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2006, 11:06:07 PM »

Can I join, Anastsios?
 Cheesy
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« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2006, 05:46:29 AM »

I'm sorry, but I can only support the Roman Mass in its ORIGINAL language--Greek. Wink  I am going to form the Society of Saint Pius I to promote my ideas.
Awww, give 'em a break.
If I'm prepared to accept Old Church Slavonic (at a pinch) then I can accept Latin- spelled and pronounced correctly, of course. None of this "...qui tollis peccata mahn-dy" rubbish.  Wink
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« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2006, 05:50:26 AM »

Finally, the Latin Liturgy allows for a unity and uniformity in prayer around the world.
You mean, as opposed to dividing the Church along linguistic lines? (Are you listening Nektarios?).
Considering that the Great Schism was between the "Latin" and "Greek" Churches, you'd think we would learn 1000 years on....
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« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2006, 06:03:11 AM »

Awww, give 'em a break.
If I'm prepared to accept Old Church Slavonic (at a pinch) then I can accept Latin- spelled and pronounced correctly, of course. None of this "...qui tollis peccata mahn-dy" rubbish.  Wink

But, whilst I can see what you mean with regards to the mispronunciation of mundi, how do you know what the correct pronunciation of Latin actually is? I've heard at least 3 different 'correct' pronunciations of 'Veni, vidi, vici', for instance. Latin appears to be pronounced differently depending on which country you're in, with it's pronunciation in England tending towards the bizarre ('Wenny, widdy, wicky', for goodness sake!).

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« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2006, 06:35:55 AM »

But, whilst I can see what you mean with regards to the mispronunciation of mundi, how do you know what the correct pronunciation of Latin actually is?

The pronunciation of Latin has been reconstructed with near-total certainty. See W. Sidney Allen's Vox Latina (Cambridge University Press, 1989) for a summary. The book also has some information on later pronunciations of Latin. the Roman Catholic Church prefers the Italianate pronunciation to the Reconstructed.
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« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2006, 06:47:48 AM »

The pronunciation of Latin has been reconstructed with near-total certainty. See W. Sidney Allen's Vox Latina (Cambridge University Press, 1989) for a summary. The book also has some information on later pronunciations of Latin. the Roman Catholic Church prefers the Italianate pronunciation to the Reconstructed.

Well, if you've read the book, how would they suggest 'Veni, vidi, vici' is pronounced (and I'd argue that no reconstruction can be 'near certain' - it's always going to be a best guess based on the available evidence)? I'm genuinely curious to see which of the versions I've come across is closest to current thought as to how it should be pronounced.

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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2006, 07:47:28 AM »

Latin appears to be pronounced differently depending on which country you're in, with it's pronunciation in England tending towards the bizarre ('Wenny, widdy, wicky', for goodness sake!).
This is also how I was taught to pronounce it in school here in Australia. The same thing happens with Koine Greek- there is the "academic" way of pronouncing it, and then there is the correct way (which, of course, is my way Wink). But, to be serious for a moment, I'm inclined to think that, rather than being "dead" languages, Koine, Latin, Slavonic etc are living languages so long as they keep being used, and, being Liturgical Living Languages, written down in the liturgical books of the Churches (Typicon, Breviary, Horologion, Missal, Euchologion, Book of Needs etc) their grammar and spelling should not change, however, their pronounciation evolves and changes, as do all living languages.
The importance of maintaining the Liturgical Languages is, I think, best exemplified by the "Kakure Kirishitan" ("Hidden Christians") of Japan. They were Roman Catholics, and in the 17th Century, Christianity was strictly banned in Japan following the "Shimabara Rebellion" in the 1630's. Christians were rooted out in barbaric ways, for example, medallions were struck with images of Christ and the Theotokos, and the populations of entire villages ordered to step on them. If anyone hesitated, they were accused of being Christians and immediately tortured then executed. This led to the formation of groups of "Kakure Kirishitan" ("Hidden Christians"). They had no priesthood (since it had been systematically wiped out), so they would gather in secret and pray the Latin prayers and Scriptures they knew. They would not use any Sacred images or even Crosses on their shrines in case they were discovered. They started a "priesthood" of their own and secretly undertook rituals resembling the Mass using rice and "sake" (rice wine) instead of bread and wine. However, they continued to pray solely in Latin. As the centuries passed and Christianity finally became legal in Japan, many Kakure Kirishitan came out of hiding, and after renouncing the unorthodox practices they had adopted, rejoined the Catholic Church, because they recognised the Liturgy from their own prayers they had orally transmitted down the generations. Some, however, remained in hiding and can still be found on remote islands of Japan to this day. On a recent visit to the islands, an Australian Journalist was astounded to find a fishing community of Kakure Kirishitan who spoke no English, yet still reciting the "Salve Regina" in Latin and able to explain it's meaning in Japanese!
My point is, we tend to think only of the present and the situation the Church finds herself in today. We assume that things will always continue as they have for centuries for the Church. But the Christians of Constantinople, Bagdad, Cairo and Alexandria etc all once lived in "Christian" countries or countries which tolerated Christianity. Things can, and will change for the Church. So if we find ourselves in the situation where we have no other means but to orally transmit the teachings of the Church, we need to make sure they are transmitted with accuracy in a way recognisable to the Church as a whole.
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« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2006, 08:04:57 AM »

Ugh...Erasmusian-style Greek. I was forced to use it in college. Even Erasmus admitted his mistake but it still persists in academia.
For a laugh, ozgeorge, check out:

http://www.oeaw.ac.at/kal/agp/

My Dad spewed his coffee out when I played these for him...no wonder.
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« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2006, 08:14:30 AM »

For a laugh, ozgeorge, check out:
http://www.oeaw.ac.at/kal/agp/
AAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHH! MUST WASH EARS!
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« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2006, 08:28:35 AM »

AAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHH! MUST WASH EARS!

And I have yet another site with similar...but I can't stop laughing everytime I play it- it's worse, if you can imagine that. Don't they realize Homer was SUNG? There is nothing melodic in these versions.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2006, 09:03:03 AM »

There's a whole generation of people who have grown up knowing only the Novus Ordo mass and the other changes that have been ushered in with it (EEM's, etc.)  The potential wider indult, while good, I think is really not going to represent anything significant; because I don't believe the people themselves will choose it.
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« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2006, 09:24:54 AM »

I really don't believe that the restoration of the Tridentine Rite in parishes around the world is intended to give the RC faithful a choice for which Liturgy they wish to pray. First of all, the bishop of any particular diocese has to give his OK before that can happen and too many of the bishops in the world appointed by JP II are so liberal that they would never permit this.  Secondly, I think that the Pope's intention is to reach out more to Catholic Schismatics, like the SSPX and the Lefebrvists, who are not exactly in communion with the Holy See.  Since Christian unity is a high priority for him, this is a means to an end.  Just my opinion, though.

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« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2006, 10:02:50 AM »

Ugh...Erasmusian-style Greek. I was forced to use it in college. Even Erasmus admitted his mistake but it still persists in academia.
For a laugh, ozgeorge, check out:

http://www.oeaw.ac.at/kal/agp/

My Dad spewed his coffee out when I played these for him...no wonder.

Do they still use Erasmus in colleges? I don't think so as they have reconstructed Ancient Greek pronunciation pretty good now.  I know some Prot. seminaries still use Erasmian though.

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« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2006, 10:07:36 AM »

Do they still use Erasmus in colleges? I don't think so as they have reconstructed Ancient Greek pronunciation pretty good now.  I know some Prot. seminaries still use Erasmian though.

Anastasios

They do at my alma mater, Washington & Lee, and at local university Indiana University of Pennsylania near here.
And if you visit textkits's Greek forum,well, you'll see...it's alive and 'well'.
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« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2006, 11:05:24 AM »

In nomine Iesu I offer you all peace,

Being critical of the 'spirit of Vatican II' and ultimately a traditionalist (attend an indult Parish) I find great joy that our Holy Father sees his way clear to offer a 'universal' indult. Much of the Roman Catholic Church is the Latin Rite. We should be afforded the use of the 'Latin' Mass.

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« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2006, 11:10:46 AM »

They do at my alma mater, Washington & Lee, and at local university Indiana University of Pennsylania near here.
And if you visit textkits's Greek forum,well, you'll see...it's alive and 'well'.

Interesting.  Erasmian pronunication did get some things right if we look at reconstructed Ancient, but I don't see the point of using Erasmian if we could actually use reconstructed Ancient (which I think is ok for the linguistic side of things). If we're dealing with history or literature why not just do it in modern like the Church and secular Greek academics actually do.

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« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2006, 11:12:07 AM »

I'm sorry, but I can only support the Roman Mass in its ORIGINAL language--Greek. Wink  I am going to form the Society of Saint Pius I to promote my ideas.

Anastasios
Then, maybe you should establish the society of St. Peter. Or wait, is that name already taken. LOL
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« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2006, 11:12:36 AM »

Here you go, Anastasios. An example of their Koini:

http://www.biblicalulpan.org/Sound_files/1John1.MP3

Better, but still odd.
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« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2006, 11:14:07 AM »

You mean, as opposed to dividing the Church along linguistic lines? (Are you listening Nektarios?).
Considering that the Great Schism was between the "Latin" and "Greek" Churches, you'd think we would learn 1000 years on....
I am aware of this. I am simply pointing out why many traditionalist would not want the Tridentine mass translated. However, both me and my Catholic roommate would love to see a venacular translation of the Tridentine liturgy. We both see this as a perfect expression of the Divine Liturgy in the modern world.
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« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2006, 11:35:05 AM »

You mean, as opposed to dividing the Church along linguistic lines? (Are you listening Nektarios?).
Considering that the Great Schism was between the "Latin" and "Greek" Churches, you'd think we would learn 1000 years on....

I'm sorry, but I don't even know what your point is here (Mods, we REALLY could use some more emoticons.  There actually is one for the previous sentence).  Can you please explain?
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« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2006, 12:12:19 PM »

Well, if you've read the book, how would they suggest 'Veni, vidi, vici' is pronounced

The purpose of my citing the book was that I would not have to repeat all of Sidney Allen's points here. The book is available in any university library.
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« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2006, 03:39:52 PM »

The pronunciation of Latin has been reconstructed with near-total certainty. See W. Sidney Allen's Vox Latina (Cambridge University Press, 1989) for a summary. The book also has some information on later pronunciations of Latin. the Roman Catholic Church prefers the Italianate pronunciation to the Reconstructed.

Well, I don't know if this has been covered yet, but as Classics is one of my majors I feel that I should interject Smiley.  The problem with exact pronuciation on LAtin is that it Differ widely.  Just as American English has often become standerized, there is still a difference between even areas such as West Texas and East Texas.  Another example is I have a small dog, but my friend from Yonkers has a small Dawg that she walks in the pawk.  Any attempt at  Latin's true pronuciation is just a reconstruction.  It is not a certain thing and it differed widely even in the Italian pennisula.  (For that matter, modern Italian does too).  If you read the writings of Cicero and other great writers you can hear their complaints about no standarized Latin.
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« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2006, 04:12:46 PM »

I have a great question. Is the Church's current pronunciation of latin affected by Italian or are Italian pronunciations affected by Latin? I wonder becasue Italy/Rome was the center of the Latin speaking world. Anyone have some expertise in this area who might be able to answer my question?
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« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2006, 04:47:57 PM »

I have a great question. Is the Church's current pronunciation of latin affected by Italian or are Italian pronunciations affected by Latin? I wonder becasue Italy/Rome was the center of the Latin speaking world. Anyone have some expertise in this area who might be able to answer my question?

The Roman Catholic pronunciation is affected by Italian. Vulgar Latin underwent palatalization of velars and dentals somewhat differently in each Romance language, and ecclesiastical Latin reflects uniquely Italian developments.
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« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2006, 06:06:07 PM »

I'm sorry, but I don't even know what your point is here (Mods, we REALLY could use some more emoticons.  There actually is one for the previous sentence).  Can you please explain?

You can't use emoticons? I thought they were working?  Huh
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« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2006, 06:36:12 PM »

You can't use emoticons? I thought they were working?  Huh
I think he means the range needs to be extended, or as the Comic Book Guy in the Simpsons wrote in a comment in response to Homer's webpage expose of a mayoral scandal: "There is no emoticon for what I'm feeling"
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« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2006, 07:07:53 PM »

Quote
You mean, as opposed to dividing the Church along linguistic lines? (Are you listening Nektarios?).
Considering that the Great Schism was between the "Latin" and "Greek" Churches, you'd think we would learn 1000 years on....

Not exactly.  There were Christian Slavs and Georgians at this point that were neither Latin rite nor speakers of Greek.  It is also worth weighing the damage done in the west by forcing the use of Latin as long as it was - the protestant movement took place primarily outside of the romance speaking world. 
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« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2006, 07:16:34 PM »

I think he means the range needs to be extended, or as the Comic Book Guy in the Simpsons wrote in a comment in response to Homer's webpage expose of a mayoral scandal: "There is no emoticon for what I'm feeling"

As the above....thanks.
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