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francis-christopher
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« on: August 29, 2006, 10:42:11 PM »

In nomine Ieus I offer you all peace,

Can an Orthodox Brother or Sister offer a general understanding of Original Sin through the eyes of the Orthodox Teaching?

Thank you.

Pax
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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2006, 11:29:57 PM »

In nomine Ieus I offer you all peace,

Can an Orthodox Brother or Sister offer a general understanding of Original Sin through the eyes of the Orthodox Teaching?

Thank you.

Pax

Taken from the OCA Q&A section (abridged):


Concerning the original -- or "first" -- sin, that commited by Adam and Eve, Orthodoxy believes that, while everyone bears the consequences of the first sin, the foremost of which is death, only Adam and Eve are guilty of that sin. Roman Catholicism teaches that everyone bears not only the consequence, but also the guilt, of that sin.

Finally, the "Orthodox canons" are not statements of doctrine; rather, they are the "canon laws" drafted by the early Church councils. Canons deal with Church discipline and order, not with doctrine. They are found in the proceedings of the seven ecumenical councils and the local councils of the early Church.
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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2006, 11:49:37 PM »

Taken from the OCA Q&A section (abridged):


Concerning the original -- or "first" -- sin, that commited by Adam and Eve, Orthodoxy believes that, while everyone bears the consequences of the first sin, the foremost of which is death, only Adam and Eve are guilty of that sin. Roman Catholicism teaches that everyone bears not only the consequence, but also the guilt, of that sin.

Finally, the "Orthodox canons" are not statements of doctrine; rather, they are the "canon laws" drafted by the early Church councils. Canons deal with Church discipline and order, not with doctrine. They are found in the proceedings of the seven ecumenical councils and the local councils of the early Church.
The Catechism states that when we say we inherit original sin that it is only by analogy, not an actual sin that we inherit but rather what we do inherit is a weekend will, a dulled intellect, and death and suffering. What would you think about this idea?
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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2006, 12:11:58 AM »

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5.
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2006, 01:45:11 AM »

The Catechism states that when we say we inherit original sin that it is only by analogy, not an actual sin that we inherit but rather what we do inherit is a weekend will, a dulled intellect, and death and suffering. What would you think about this idea?

You can't take away the "original guilt" and remain a Catholic.

http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/Justification.htm

This concept of original guilt, already visible in the theology of the third-century North African Latin Fathers Cyprian of Carthage and Tertullian, was developed in the early fifth century primarily by Augustine, who reacted to Pelagius’ claim that infants need not be baptized since they have committed no personal sins.  Augustine countered Pelagius by arguing from common Church practice and mixing it with traducianism via Rom. 5:12:  “… sin came into the world through one man and death spread through sin, and so death spread to all men because [literally, “in that” or “in which”] all men sinned.Adam], all of them, become mortal.baptism] confers is the remission of sins, we have counted its honors to the number of ten.  It is on this account that we baptize even infants, although they are sinless, that they may be given the further gifts of sanctification, justice, filial adoption, and inheritance, that they may be brothers and members of Christ, and become dwelling places of the Spirit.

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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2006, 06:57:52 AM »

Can an Orthodox Brother or Sister offer a general understanding of Original Sin through the eyes of the Orthodox Teaching
There is a good discussion about this subject on this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=9447.0

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5.
Bad translation.
It's been discussed already on the thread mentioned above.
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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2006, 09:49:32 AM »

There is a good discussion about this subject on this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=9447.0
Bad translation.
It's been discussed already on the thread mentioned above.

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued peace ozgeorge,

Let me say that we have often been on the opposite ends of many discussions but I am extremely impressed with your thoughts regarding Original Sin but I do notice a tendency with many Orthodox to Philosophize answers and almost a complete disregard for what Sacred Scripture has to say. Am I overstating the case or have I overlooked references to Sacred Scripture?

Pax

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« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2006, 11:12:20 AM »

There is a good discussion about this subject on this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=9447.0
Bad translation.
It's been discussed already on the thread mentioned above.
Mostly because it disagrees with your pet theology. LOL.  Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2006, 11:55:05 AM »

Mostly because it disagrees with your pet theology. LOL.  Smiley

In nomine Ieus I offer you much filial affection and peace Papist,

Actually if you read the link I believe you might find our good ozgeorge presents an understanding of Original Sin that most modern Catholic Theologians would accept as orthodox and catholic. Give it a read...

Pax
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« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2006, 06:30:30 PM »

Mostly because it disagrees with your pet theology. LOL.  Smiley
Scholarship is scholarship, Papist.
Or do you prefer not to think and just accept things on "blind faith"? Wink
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« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2006, 08:20:39 PM »

Scholarship is scholarship, Papist.
Or do you prefer not to think and just accept things on "blind faith"? Wink

My friend, Of course not. Its not scholarship. Its a pathetic translation and understanding of the greek word for "in" which you guys strech beyond its meaning in order to support a pet theory. Furthermore, I would much rather like to see a discussion of the original HEBREW in which the Pslams were written. Btw, since you guys don't like scholarship or reason, why do you try employ them all the time?
Many blessings in Christ.
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« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2006, 10:29:37 PM »

My friend, Of course not. Its not scholarship. Its a pathetic translation and understanding of the greek word for "in" which you guys strech beyond its meaning in order to support a pet theory. Furthermore, I would much rather like to see a discussion of the original HEBREW in which the Pslams were written. Btw, since you guys don't like scholarship or reason, why do you try employ them all the time?
Many blessings in Christ.

In nomine Ieus I offer you much filial affection and continued peace Papist,

It isn't the fact that reason is 'bad' or 'without it's merits', it's the fact that reason will not bring you into union with the Divine Nature and in that embrace bring us His 'peace'.

Thou hast made us for thyself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in thee. - St. Augustine

Pax
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« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2006, 12:13:13 AM »

In nomine Ieus I offer you much filial affection and continued peace Papist,

It isn't the fact that reason is 'bad' or 'without it's merits', it's the fact that reason will not bring you into union with the Divine Nature and in that embrace bring us His 'peace'.

Thou hast made us for thyself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in thee. - St. Augustine

Pax
And we cannot know that God exists without reason.
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« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2006, 12:35:59 AM »

And we cannot know that God exists without reason.

Disagree.

I am most unreasonable and I know God exists.  Cheesy

Seriously, perhaps only self-awareness, but reason (beyond the ΛΟΓΟΣ), not necessary.
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« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2006, 05:22:36 AM »

My friend, Of course not. Its not scholarship. Its a pathetic translation and understanding of the greek word for "in" which you guys strech beyond its meaning in order to support a pet theory.
OK, Since your scholarship is so much better then ours, could you tell us what the Koine word for "into" is?

Furthermore, I would much rather like to see a discussion of the original HEBREW in which the Pslams were written.
So would I, but as you would know from your far superior scholarship, the original Hebrew no longer exists except in fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the vast majority of which are yet to be published. However, the fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls published so far favour the Septuagant over the Masoretic Text, and in fact, the DSS include fragments of the Septuagant. Funny that they don't include fragments of the Masoretic which your Vulgate is based on. Wink

Btw, since you guys don't like scholarship or reason, why do you try employ them all the time?
Who told you that we don't like scholarship and reason?  What we despise is poor scholarship and reasoning. To say that theology can only be approached apophatically is not a rejection of reason, it is actually the use of reason to determine how the Transcendant can be approached.
I sincerely hope that you haven't fallen for the age-old misconception that the Orthodox are the "backwater country cousins" of the Roman Catholic Church, with an "underdeveloped knowledge" of theology. This misconception often works in our favour though, because it lulls people into a false sense of security. Wink
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« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2006, 10:17:20 AM »

francis-christopher, someone was actually kind enough to put together a concise set of documents on this subject.  It is available on the personal Internet "blog" of someone who I am not familiar with.

Original Sin in the Eastern Orthodox Confessions and Catechisms.  The link is here.  http://www.bensusan.net/razilazenje/2006/03/24/orthodoxy-and-original-sin/
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« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2006, 10:41:27 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9893.msg134125#msg134125 date=1156998959]
Disagree.

I am most unreasonable and I know God exists.  Cheesy

Seriously, perhaps only self-awareness, but reason (beyond the ΛΟΓΟΣ), not necessary.

[/quote]
Then how do you know he exists?
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« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2006, 11:20:03 AM »

Then how do you know he exists?

In nomine Ieus I offer you peace Papist,

You will know when you've been striped to the very ground of your being. You will know. He will be there.

Pax
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« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2006, 11:42:21 AM »

francis-christopher, someone was actually kind enough to put together a concise set of documents on this subject.  It is available on the personal Internet "blog" of someone who I am not familiar with.

Original Sin in the Eastern Orthodox Confessions and Catechisms.  The link is here.  http://www.bensusan.net/razilazenje/2006/03/24/orthodoxy-and-original-sin/

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued peace welkodox,

Thank you so much for the link! I'm checking it out right now...

Pax
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« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2006, 11:46:05 AM »

In nomine Ieus I offer you all continued peace,

Uh, this all looks very much in line with Catholic Theology on Original Sin...

The following is from Our Orthodox Christian Faith: A Handbook of Popular Dogmatics by Athanasios S. Frangopoulos, theologian and teacher. Published by The Brotherhood of Theologians, “O Sotir”, in Athens, Greece, 1984.

Chapter 9, The Original Sin:

4.d. Guilt. The original sin which brought about man’s depravity also brought about his guilt. Man, through his transgression, became guilty before God as a transgressor of the divine command, guilty and accused before the justice of God the Lawgiver. The transgression contained guilt within it. Both are simultaneous. As soon as he committed the transgression he sensed guilt. within him. His conscience thundered out and said: “Sinner, you are guilty and stand accused before God”. It was this sense of guilt that made the first couple realize that they were naked, and hasten to hide before the face of God. Thus, wherever sin is to be found, there, too, exists guilt. The sin that Adam committed in Paradise did not result only in the depravity and moral perversion of man. It ushered also guilt and then God’s sentence and condemnation. This is felt by every man who sins. Immediately, remorse and pangs of conscience set in: a clear proof and confirmation of guilt. And the consequence of guilt is condemnation and punishment.

And this is the final phase of sin relevant to the body. Man was created from earth and unto the earth he is entrusted. God said this when He pronounced His verdict upon Adam: «ln the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread until thou return to the earth out of which thou was taken, for earth thou art and to earth thou shall return» (Gen. 3, 19).

4.e. The inheritance of Original Sin. The saddest and ugliest aspect of Original sin is its transmission from the first man to his descendants and; from generation to generation to the entire human race: a hereditary transmission as a state and sickness of human nature and as a personal guilt of every man. That is to say, not only Adam sinned but in his person all his offsprings, all men who were to be descended from Adam. This means that Adam did not sin only as an individual but as progenitor and representative of the human race. For this reason God imputed upon all men the sin of the one. And to verify this Holy Scripture states: “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3, 23). These words of the holy Apostle while certainly presenting the universality of sin do not tell us whence came this universal unhappy legacy. This the Apostle clearly defines further along when he says that it springs from the fall of the first parents. “Wherefore,” says the divinely-inspired Apostle, “as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” (Rom. 5, 12); that is, in the person of Adam all his descendants were included and all inherited the sin of Adam and the results of that sin which are guilt, corruption and the depravity of our nature, the tendency and inclination towards evil and finally death. Thus, as we have already said, “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God”. In the psalms we find the verse that says: “For behold I was conceived in iniquities and in sins did my mother conceive me” (Ps. 50, 5), and which can be applied to each and every one of us. Job, aware of the weight of sin, asks, “Who is pure from uncleaness?” and gives the answer himself: “Not even one; if even his life should be but one day upon the earth” (Job 14, 4-5). Furthermore, the Evangelist St. John emphasizes that we all have need to be reborn in water and the Spirit, for through birth the pollution of sin is transmitted to all of us, for “that which is born of flesh is flesh” (John 3, 6), and every sinful man is by nature subject to divine wrath in accordance with the saying “we were by nature the children of wrath” (Eph. 2, 3).


Any thoughts or comments?

Pax
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« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2006, 11:55:06 AM »

In nomine Ieus I offer you peace Papist,

You will know when you've been striped to the very ground of your being. You will know. He will be there.

Pax
will you know, or will you think you? I.E. Guess, have blind faith?
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« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2006, 11:57:24 AM »

In nomine Ieus I offer you all continued peace,

Uh, this all looks very much in line with Catholic Theology on Original Sin...

The following is from Our Orthodox Christian Faith: A Handbook of Popular Dogmatics by Athanasios S. Frangopoulos, theologian and teacher. Published by The Brotherhood of Theologians, “O Sotir”, in Athens, Greece, 1984.

Chapter 9, The Original Sin:

4.d. Guilt. The original sin which brought about man’s depravity also brought about his guilt. Man, through his transgression, became guilty before God as a transgressor of the divine command, guilty and accused before the justice of God the Lawgiver. The transgression contained guilt within it. Both are simultaneous. As soon as he committed the transgression he sensed guilt. within him. His conscience thundered out and said: “Sinner, you are guilty and stand accused before God”. It was this sense of guilt that made the first couple realize that they were naked, and hasten to hide before the face of God. Thus, wherever sin is to be found, there, too, exists guilt. The sin that Adam committed in Paradise did not result only in the depravity and moral perversion of man. It ushered also guilt and then God’s sentence and condemnation. This is felt by every man who sins. Immediately, remorse and pangs of conscience set in: a clear proof and confirmation of guilt. And the consequence of guilt is condemnation and punishment.

And this is the final phase of sin relevant to the body. Man was created from earth and unto the earth he is entrusted. God said this when He pronounced His verdict upon Adam: «ln the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread until thou return to the earth out of which thou was taken, for earth thou art and to earth thou shall return» (Gen. 3, 19).

4.e. The inheritance of Original Sin. The saddest and ugliest aspect of Original sin is its transmission from the first man to his descendants and; from generation to generation to the entire human race: a hereditary transmission as a state and sickness of human nature and as a personal guilt of every man. That is to say, not only Adam sinned but in his person all his offsprings, all men who were to be descended from Adam. This means that Adam did not sin only as an individual but as progenitor and representative of the human race. For this reason God imputed upon all men the sin of the one. And to verify this Holy Scripture states: “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3, 23). These words of the holy Apostle while certainly presenting the universality of sin do not tell us whence came this universal unhappy legacy. This the Apostle clearly defines further along when he says that it springs from the fall of the first parents. “Wherefore,” says the divinely-inspired Apostle, “as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” (Rom. 5, 12); that is, in the person of Adam all his descendants were included and all inherited the sin of Adam and the results of that sin which are guilt, corruption and the depravity of our nature, the tendency and inclination towards evil and finally death. Thus, as we have already said, “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God”. In the psalms we find the verse that says: “For behold I was conceived in iniquities and in sins did my mother conceive me” (Ps. 50, 5), and which can be applied to each and every one of us. Job, aware of the weight of sin, asks, “Who is pure from uncleaness?” and gives the answer himself: “Not even one; if even his life should be but one day upon the earth” (Job 14, 4-5). Furthermore, the Evangelist St. John emphasizes that we all have need to be reborn in water and the Spirit, for through birth the pollution of sin is transmitted to all of us, for “that which is born of flesh is flesh” (John 3, 6), and every sinful man is by nature subject to divine wrath in accordance with the saying “we were by nature the children of wrath” (Eph. 2, 3).


Any thoughts or comments?

Pax
This not only sounds like Catholic theology on original sin, but is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches.
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« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2006, 01:39:58 PM »

will you know, or will you think you? I.E. Guess, have blind faith?

In nomine Ieus I offer you much filial affection and continued peace Papist,

One is at peace with the Lord and His existence when one has encountered the ground of our being in which God is found. Faith (i.e. trust) is the seed from which such an encounter springs and in which no further evidence is necessary nor is such an encounter questions. The articulation is always subjective but the objectivity of the encounter is known by one's experiencing it.

This is what is meant by "seek and yea shall find, knock and the door will be opened to you". It is also where "be still and know that I am God" creates continuity between these two passages and not contradiction. Christianity is an invitation to participate in such an encounter and and such is not merely a one-sided exercise in intellectual ascent (i.e. blind faith).

Faith opens the opportunity for the encounter and the encounter for a relationship (i.e. walking with God and knowing Him deeply).
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« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2006, 01:59:19 PM »

Uh, this all looks very much in line with Catholic Theology on Original Sin...

Yes, of course it does.
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« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2006, 05:33:04 PM »

In nomine Iesu I offer you all peace,

In past dialogues with Orthodox Brothers and and Sisters I have gotten the impression that there exists a distinction between the Roman Catholic Dogmas of Original Sin and the Orthodox teaching of Original Sin.

It often focus' around whither Original Sin actually carries the penalty of 'guilt' and thus merits 'hell' as punishment.

Lately I have been getting conflicting inform on this and would like to clarify this.

Any takers?
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« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2006, 09:15:53 PM »

I've always questioned whether there was really a "difference."  Perhaps, there is a difference when taken to a misunderstanding extreme.

Could "Original guilt" simply mean that one is not united with Christ in baptism, that one is "not saved" except through baptism, and not necessarily being "guilty" of Adam's sin?

Could it mean as was Fr. Peter Gillquist asked "Why should I let my child dangle over the kingdom of hell?"  Not that it means that surely those unbaptized did go to hell, but one has the responsibility as a parent to put their child through baptism with all of what they learned, while everything else is left to God's judgment.

God bless.

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