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John of the North
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Christ is Risen!

tgild
« on: August 10, 2006, 01:27:49 AM »

Blessed be,

Cephas, His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie I of Ethiopia IS the same person as InI Lord and Saviour, Iyesus Kristos, Only Begotten Son of the Father.

Yes, I expect you to find that troubling.ÂÂ  But I see it as Truth, and in the end, I am the one who must answer to God on Judgment Day for my actions.ÂÂ  Only I can answer to Him for what I have done.ÂÂ  What if you "convert" me, and I renounce my "heresy", but in the end (God forbid!) my Rasta beliefs are correct?? Shall I say to Him "Well, I am sorry Lord, I thought that was You but You know; Cephas, Matthew777 and the gang convinced me I was wrong.ÂÂ  Please spare me!"ÂÂ  Would that work?

For better or worse, my decision is made.ÂÂ  I feel a strong connection to Orthodoxy, and I feel an absolute necessity to follow the direction of my God and King, HIM Haile Selassie of Ethiopia, who instructed me to embrace Orthodoxy and "glory in the Bible."ÂÂ  I am what I am but if the Church rejects me, then that is that.

Dismus,
I liked your opening comment.ÂÂ  With a few changes it could work.ÂÂ  But the bottom line is:

a) By virtue of His Royal Davidic Lineage, Haile Selassie is Earth's Rightful Ruler.
b) By virtue of His unwavering commitment to peace, His League of Nations prophecy, and His work in the founding of the United Nations and the Organization for African Unity, He is the Prince of Peace.
c) By virtue of His victory against overwhelming odds against the invasion of Fascist Italy, He is the Lion who triumphed over the Dragon.
d) By virtue of His Imperial Titles, passed down to each Ethiopian ruler since 600 BCE, Haile Selassie is the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah.

All of that can be reinforced by Scripture, and all of that is "heresy".ÂÂ  To be blunt, the Church was supposed to see it and they didn't.ÂÂ  That doesn't mean I am wrong, it means someone screwed up.

"For many are called, but few are chosen" - Matt. 22:14 KJV
Hmmm, so the approx. 218 million Orthodox Christians supposedly got it right, believe all the right things, and yet, only a few here and there are *chosen*.ÂÂ  That seems logical...or not.ÂÂ  Anyone care to tell me how these "few" shall be "chosen"?

Fiqir Bandinet (One Love)
Ras Markos Yohannis Binyam
 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 01:30:39 AM by Rastaman » Logged

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Cephas
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« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2006, 09:59:04 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

Blessed be,

Cephas, His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie I of Ethiopia IS the same person as InI Lord and Saviour, Iyesus Kristos, Only Begotten Son of the Father.

Yes, I expect you to find that troubling.  But I see it as Truth, and in the end, I am the one who must answer to God on Judgment Day for my actions.  Only I can answer to Him for what I have done.  What if you "convert" me, and I renounce my "heresy", but in the end (God forbid!) my Rasta beliefs are correct?? Shall I say to Him "Well, I am sorry Lord, I thought that was You but You know; Cephas, Matthew777 and the gang convinced me I was wrong.  Please spare me!"  Would that work?

Here's some food for thought:

"Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.  For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.  See, I have told you beforehand.  Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.  For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."
-- Matthew (24:24-27)

I was talking to a friend the other day about this, and apparently, HIM Haile Selassie never ascribed any divinity to himself, but was a very devout Orthodox.

Please pray for me.
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Cephas 

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:5

"He who knows himself knows God"
-- Pi Nishti Abba Antony
Amdetsion
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« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2006, 02:05:45 PM »

Rastafarianism.....

I fear for those who are claiming this concept as a religion.

This concept is not heresy at all; it is an abomination.
It attempts to contradict the teachings of God in-mass.

Rastaman is not even aware of the fact that our former Ethiopian Emporer (God rest his soul) is named "Power of the Trinity" which says that by this description he can not be Christ. Christ Jesus IS one in the trinity NOT the trinity. The trinitiy is Father, Son and Holy Spirit; three in one. So if anything the former king would be the ALL three in one person. If this is the case then this man can not be the returned Christ.

Christ is coming back as "Chirst (the Son of the Father)". And he will not be born with human lust and carnal marriage bewteen a man and a woman like the Emporer was. The coming Christ also will not be a father of children married to a women in The Church, and die at the hands of men.

How can somebody who has already died die again?

This thread should be banned.

The discussion is filthy; lacking the strenght of the true faith.

We have tried to help this poor soul before. He seems pretty happy where he is.
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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
John of the North
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Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2006, 01:33:27 AM »

Blessings,

Does someone want to explain what the heck is going on here??

http://www.rastafarispeaks.com/cgi-bin/forum/archive1/config.pl?noframes;read=48591

1.  Has HH Abuna Yeshaq (peace upon his soul) been excommunicated??
2.  Why are some church officials saying its okay to worship HIM and some are not??
3.  Are dreadlocks against Orthodox doctrine??

Can someone read that whole thread and get back to me.  I would appreciate it.  Much apprecilove.  And no AmdeTsion, no more of your rants, thank you. 

"No one should question the faith of others, for no human being can judge the ways of God." - HIM Haile Selassie

"This is not religion, this is the life" - Ras Berhane Selassie

What I want is a civil discussion and clarification.  I do not want speculation, or opinion.  I want doctrine from church officials.

"Today man sees all his hopes and aspirations crumbling before him. He is perplexed and knows not whither he is drifting. But he must realise that the Bible is his refuge, and the rallying point for all humanity. In it man will find the solution of his present difficulties and guidance for his future action, and unless he accepts with clear conscience the Bible and its great Message, he cannot hope for salvation. For my part I glory in the Bible." - HIM Haile Selassie

Fiqir Bandinet
Ras Markos Yohannis Binyam
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2006, 05:51:49 PM »

Quote
"For many are called, but few are chosen" - Matt. 22:14 KJV

Hmmm, so the approx. 218 million Orthodox Christians supposedly got it right, believe all the right things, and yet, only a few here and there are *chosen*.  That seems logical...or not.  Anyone care to tell me how these "few" shall be "chosen"?

Respectfully, you are a bit off on this.  The quote above was spoken of before greater Israel rejected Christ and before He said, "go baptise ALL nations".  In other words, this phrase you quote was spoken in context to the Israelites during Christ's first part of His mission which was, "don't go to the Gentiles but go only unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel".   After Christ "came to His own but His own received him not" and all power and authority was given unto Him He then opened the Kingdom to the Gentiles.  To the Jew first, then to the Gentiles was the formula.  The OT promises only a "scanty remnant" of Israel would be saved.   History bears this out.  The Orthodox Church is 'primarily' made up of Gentiles.

Acts 28:28 - “Well, did the Holy Spirit speak through the prophet Isaiah to your fathers, Therefore,
let it be known to you that the salvation of God was sent to the Gentiles; and they will hear.”

« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 05:58:56 PM by ROCORthodox » Logged
Amdetsion
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2006, 02:16:46 PM »

In defense of the Church of Ethiopia. There is absolutely NO teachings for or against any religion. The Ethiopian Church since the beginning is on a mission to preach and teach the Gosple of Jesus Christ and to save souls through the power of the Holy Spirit. It does not exhaust time and effort on preaching against other faiths. Ethiopia is aware that Christ taught that we must "choose" Him. Christianity is not a life you can be forced into like the various religions of the world.

rasta-religion is therefore completely ignored by the Holy Fathers of Ethiopia.

The Church prays for the those who are heretics and blasphemers that they will come to know the truth of Christ. Like the Ethiopian eunach said to the Apostle Philip..."how am I to know unless some man should show me" (Acts Ch.8 starting at the 26 verse). A person must submit to the word in life and deed. Christianity is not a thing we simply except or believe. It is not a "religion" or relgious idea.

It is a life.

WE live the faith of Christ
.

This is why the Ethiopian Church fathers are very dismissing regarding the rasta religion. Nobody can live the Christian life and agree with anything that is related to rastas.

A person may have Christianity as a "religion" and yet keep rasta ideas and ways in thier life. I see this all the time with people.

I evaluate it this way:

Becoming a baptised Christian is a great beginning ( like a new born child).  At this point we have "religion" which is our means of relating to the faith and the life we have entered into. As we grow our "religion" teaches and guides so that we understand. Once we are of age we live our lives based on what we have learned from our religion. So what was once our religion becomes our LIFE.


We see everday; people who agree with all kinds of secular and worldly non-sense even support it because somebody convinced them that it is good to be open and "liberal". We see people marry people outside the Holy Church and expect the Church to see them as married. We see women today dressing in the most revealing and sexually provocative attire but does not want to be treated as sex objects. A recent news article reported that a women was fired by a local RC Church school because she was in an adulterous affiar with another married teacher in the same school and she could not understand why she was let go (Fired); so she sued the school.

All these people are "Christian" but they are NOT living the Christian life yet. They have the so-called religion but not its power, it saving grace. You can only get that power and saving grace by following the teachings of Christ. And of course to follow the teachings of Christ you must devote your whole life to the faith. And you can not devote your whole life to the faith with some parts of your life wrapped in another way of life....ie baptised in the church but married outside the church; or worshipping a dead Emporer in one hand and the God that that Emporer worshiped when he was alive in the other.

When we are baptised we are in my opinion like seeds planted in the earth; but not yet recieved the amount of water and sun light to take them from seed to plant.

Any Church father who says to rastas to worship a dead Emporer instead of the Living God is a rasta himself; or in some way gains from keeping these people in a lost state. If such a clergyman exists he is a heretic and is not a true father of the Church of Ethiopia or any other Orthodox community and shold be avoided. All teaching of our Church are verifiable through the Holy Synod in Ethiopia. No clergyman outisde or inside the country can make his own rule.

Thus Ethiopia has NO rasta doctrine for or against. rastas and their ideas in total are simply not recognised at all by the Church.

The Church fathers teach us to pray for them...not hate them (rastas).

Ethiopia has a very strict social code which is woven into the fabric of the Orthodox community. Men with locked hair (dread locks as some say) are a group that are hernits (beitawi). They do not attend liturgy in the churches or monastaries. I have heard that they will at times take communion at monasatries 3 times a year. Nobody can confirm this.

The point here is the locked hair is a POST baptism condition; not prebaptism and has a specific albeit limited place in Ethiopian society. Also these men remove themselves from society totally. No women, No children, No money, No ganja...period. They exist on prayer and mediatation and the gifts of others that leave food and clothing.

rastas today who wear the dread locks (locked hair) to aften present a rude example of the bietawi in most respects due to the rasta life style of fornication, lawlessness and drug abuse which causes Ethiopians to look at the dread locks 'they' wear with the some contempt. Some Ethiopians do not care either way. The Ethiopian Church has tried to deal with the dread locks in many cases around the world. But it remains that the Priest may object to baptising someone who he feels  is not worthy. In the Orthodox Church the Priest has the ultimate authority on the rights he administers and to whom. If this bothers someone maybe they should look to some other kind of worship. The Church is rule over all things regarding the faith and is not open to opinions. So some Preist reject administering sacraments to "dreads"(men who lock the hair...not laways a rasta but includes rastas). Some Priests will have no problem. It depends on the Priest.

I am not ranting Mr. Rastaman.

I love Orthodox Christianity and The Holy Church of Ethiopia and I want to be the one that states to all that WE do not agree with you and your rasta ideas and faith that they are not from Ethiopia, about Ethiopia or inlcudes Ethiopia especially where the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is concerned.

I would like to spend time on this site dealing with Orthodoxy. You are not ready to do that. I have seen the administrators ban protestant evangelicals who has creaped into the site posting allot of protestant blah, blah, blah. I feel what you are doing is no better and thus you and this thread should be bounced so that we could get back to Orthodoxy.

I do not want to have to keep reading the stuff you are posting about my Church without giving my response so I want this thread to stop and be put on lock.

I hope others will agree that this thread is promoting a direct attack on our true faith and is a shameful blaspheme of the Ethiopian Orthodox belief.

I am hoping that the section administrator closes this dicussion immediately.

WE tried to help you before.



rasta religion and its ideas work for those (if convinced) that are not full grown in the faith of Christ.
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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
John of the North
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tgild
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2006, 02:57:57 PM »

No, I highly doubt the mods will close this thread.

It was placed in this forum for a reason...it is a convert issue.

Look, you may give me your opinion all you want.  Quite honestly, I am not here for people to agree with me, or to say that I am right.  I could care less on your personal opinion, I am for doctrine.

I will say this:

The actions of Ethiopian Orthodox parish priests, archbishops, and other church officials has not consistently reflected opposition to the Rastafari theological system.  The Emperor and the Imperial Family has given tacit support to the movement constantly.  Your only evidence to contradict this is a unconfirmed translation of an Amharic answer.

You claim that the Abuna Yeshaq was appointed by His Majesty specifically to bring Rastafarians away from their heresy.  Yet you and others also claim that the Emperor is an Orthodox Christian, like any other member, He is subject to the authority of the Church.  Therfore, He is beholden to the Church and would have no authority to make such an appointment as the elevation of Abba Laike Mendefro to an archbishopric.

Further, Coptic authorities are claiming that the Archbishop supported Rastafarians and was excommunicated for it.

If indeed it is against Church doctrine to worship HIM Haile Selassie (a fact not reflected by any church document) then the Church is in shambles.  There are baptized Rastas in the Caribbean, the United States, Europe, and Africa.  There Rastas attending Ethiopian Orthodox Seminaries in Ethiopia.  The Imperial family, Orthodox Christians that they are, are attending Rastafarian events and granting us rights they do not even award members of the Church.

You wish to criticize Rastafarians, go ahead.  Just remember who it was who funded the E.W.F. when Ethiopia was invaded in 1936, and who is that are funding orphanages in Ethiopia now, and primary schools.

Fiqir Bandinet
Markos Yohannis Binyam
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Amdetsion
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« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2006, 10:55:56 AM »

I did not make any claims that the Former Emporer of Ethiopia ordained anyone. He had NO authority to do that of course.

clergy that allow rastas to keep the religious blasphemy they love are NOT following the Ethiopian Church doctrine. These "priests" as you call them are to be avoided. I made that clear before. Unfortunately all Orthodox communities have had to experience ( if not experiencing) strange behavior from 'certain clergy'. It is even sadder that these "clergy" prey on the weak and the innocent such as you and the rest of the rastas that are in thier grip.

Any Orthodox priest that teaches a doctrine that was not founded by God and His elect Apostles is a heretic. This is a fact. You can check yourself. Thus a concept of worshipping statues, trees, the sun or dead Kings,whatever is not Universal and as such IS NOT ORTHODOX. The WHOLE Orthodox Church has the same basic faith and it does not include a doctrine of worshipping dead Kings no matter how wonderful or blessed their lives were. Ethiopia is part of the whole universal church in case you did not know.

I explained to you that "being baptised" DOES NOT mean you are an Orthodox Christian. An Orthodox Christian is a follower of the Risen Christ and lives a LIFE of Holiness and reverence to the teaching of God and the Holy Universal Apostolic Church. You and/or other rastas may be baptised but YOU ARE NOT ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS. At best you all are baptised rastas.

In Ethiopia we are Baptised Christians Orthodox in the Lord. So was all our KIngs and Queens.

You do not have the same faith as we have. You are pretenders. I will admit (as i did before) that some Ethiopians entertain the rastas. It will be very embarrasing for you to here why. So I will not say.

I will say that it is not fair that rastas are left outside of the true Ethiopian Orthodox Church teachings and way of life. You all are hungry souls and need to be fed. It is my hope that you all stop eating the fruit of fools which is being given to you by those who do not truely care for your for you and your salvation and begin to live off the fruit of life. Too many Ethiopians have left the rastas abandoned to believe what they (rastas) want to be believe. Wearing Ethiopian stuff and speaking broken amharic will not help fix this issue for you either.

As for the EWF as with so much you post you are again not presenting the truth at all.

The EWF was NOT started by rastas.

This organisation was started by a very prestiegious group of African-American scholars and intellectuals from Harlem NYC, Washington DC and Chicago. The late Emporer HIM Hiali Selassie meet with the African/American contingent in London along with his official Envoy Dr. Bekele Beyene and formed the EWF placing the complete administration in the hands of Dr. Beyene (An Orthodox Christian). The EWF thus WAS an official organization recognised by the Imperial Ethiopian Government. Thus the name Ethiopian World Federation.

There were NO rastas in sight; nor any Carribean people at the start of the EWF. One Trinidadean was involved but was removed.

The current EWF is not the same as the EWF under the Royal family of Ethiopia. This currrent group is ALL Rastas. But should not be confused with the original EWF established during WW2.

This is my last post on this thread.

I pray that you find God in your life.
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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
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« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2006, 03:31:24 PM »

I know I posted my last on this thread but I wanted to say one more very important thing which I missed.

You Rastaman are an Ethiopian.

You and all other black people on this planet are Ethiopians. By "black people" I mean indiginous Africans and thier off spring (descendants) around the world.

The late Emporer Haili Sellassie spent a large part of his life trying to re-establish this fact among the various African states and people of African descent. Thus The current African Union (AU) headquartered in Addis Abebe Ethiopia....of course.

Ethiopia (the Nation) is now the center of the black world and contiousness.

So racially you are an Ethiopian. Which entitles you to invest in your true roots and culture and to embrace it.

Ethiopians (nationals) or Ethiopian born people do not believe that the late Emporer Haili Sellassie was God. But we respect his life as a great Christian and African statesmen.

The Term "Ethiopia" in its origin was used by the ancient Greeks to refer to the black skinned peoples from Egypt to as far south as the world extends regardless of ethnic differences.

The modern country today is still varied in ethnicity and language. As varied as Africa and the black world in general. However; we are all still Ethiopian. We have all kinds of religions, facial features skin tones etc.

Europeans call themselves "Caucasian" no matter what country or ethinic/racial or linguistic stock they may eminate. In the same way all the black world is "Ethiopian. This does not negate the fact that Ethiopians and the current nation state is any less than nor removed as the historical bibical land of Sheba. This all must be understood without taking away the true and historical heritage as it relates to the current population of the country.

Sheshamani was established by the royal family as a place for ALL the scattered African descents around the world to come back and live in their homeland and help build it and themselves. Not for any specific or single group. Though the actual mandate that formed the establishment of the district in 1949 had African/Americans in mind due to thier large population of scientist, University professors, doctors, mechanics and various skilled labor which the nation needed desperately to help rebuild after the war. This was not to imply any less for other black populations. All blacks were entitled who had skilled backgrounds and willing to help with the building process.

So; I am not dismissing you.

I and many Ethiopians apppreciate the love for Ethiopia from our black brothers and sisters.

This forum is a religious forum; so I have strong resentment for anything that is not true to the Holy Orthodox way of life.

I am affraid you are going to loose your blessing. So I make strong statements out of this fear.

I want so much that you open your eyes to the beauty of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. This Church is full of Holiness. This Church was in place long before the rasta religion. Our canon and doctrine is consistent with the whole Universal Orthodox and Apostolic Church world wide.

The Holy Church moves as a unit.

I will continue to pray for you.

This is my last post.



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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

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« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2006, 03:39:15 PM »

I forgot to share this reading in the previous "last" post:

St. John Chapter 4
23. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.[/i]

Selaam Lekemew
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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
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« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2006, 11:49:21 AM »

I split this topic from the  Greetings I in the CONVERT ISSUES Forum as it began to become a debate and was inappropriate for the Convert Forum.  Here in the Free For All, the debate  can continue.

In Christ,
Thomas
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 03:25:46 PM by Thomas » Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2006, 11:01:22 PM »

Rastaman,

I hope all is well with you. I realise that discussion has reached a point where certain claims and arguments are pressing upon sensitive nerves on both sides, so I ask you to try and give Amdetsion, and myself, the benefit of the doubt with respect to our intentions. We only seek to help you discover the truth of Orthodoxy which undoubtedly stands diametrically opposed to the tenets of Rastafarianism; we want you to experience the fruits that we, and all those who have embraced the Orthodox faith, have access to. You have to empathise with us and understand the fact that your attempt to reconcile the two faiths is, to us, an insult to our faith (though we do not impute any sinister intentions on your behalf, and believe you to be genuine in your search for the truth) for which many of our valiant martyrs and confessors, died and were persecuted for, to protect and uphold from all compromise and corrupting influence.

I now wish to deal with your latest post, and I hope you can understand any strictness in tone or assertiveness in approach in light of what I have said above:

Quote
The actions of Ethiopian Orthodox parish priests, archbishops, and other church officials has not consistently reflected opposition to the Rastafari theological system.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". The Orthodox Church has, since the most ancient of its days, been very strict in its opposition to those who have strayed from the pristine Apostolic faith entrusted to her to uphold and preserve. She has ex-communicated groups and sects who have diverged from that faith even a single iota (literally speaking when one considers the homoousios vs. homoiousios debate in the Nicaen aftermath). Rastafarianism is a faith that is significantly divergent from Orthodoxy in ways more significant and extreme than most of these already ex-communicated sects; it can hardly identify itself with any form of Christianity let alone pristine Orthodox Christianity.

As such, when you claim that heirarchs from the Ethiopian Orthodox Church have not opposed Rastafarianism, which I presume is your way of negatively stating that they tolerate it, that is an extraordinary claim that challenges the integrity of the Ethiopian Orthodox heirarchs. You will thus need to serve due justice on the matter and provide the evidence, else retract such claims upon the admitted basis that they are unsubstantiable, conjectural at best, and false according to the measure of reasonable doubt.

Quote
The Emperor and the Imperial Family has given tacit support to the movement constantly.


First of all, the Emperor and the Imperial family were not heirarchs of the Church. They were mere laymen. HIM was neither God, patriarch, priest, or deacon of the Orthodox Church, he was a servant of the Orthodox Church under the authority of the Bishops, Patriarchs, and Christ His God and Lord whom he worshipped in Truth.

Second of all, you need to show some evidence as to HIM tacitly supporting the Rastafarian faith. I have seen nothing of the sort here, or anywhere for that matter.

Quote
Your only evidence to contradict this is a unconfirmed translation of an Amharic answer.

Your objection to the credibility of the evidence in question is unreasonable. Unless you have valid reason to doubt the translation given, then you are in no position to prima facie question it just because it happens to contradict the Rastafarian perception of HIM. When the interview was first brought up, you displayed no objection to the translation, but rather attempted to offer an interpretation of that translation in sync with your belief. I in turn responded by proving that the interpretation given was a far-fetched manipulation of what HIM clearly intended. You're not being honest with yourself in your current attempt to question the translation without any substantial basis.

Quote
Therfore, He is beholden to the Church and would have no authority to make such an appointment as the elevation of Abba Laike Mendefro to an archbishopric.

I'd like to see some official documentation verifying the claim that HIM attempted to usurp clerical/synodical authority by personally elevating one to an Archbishop.

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Further, Coptic authorities are claiming that the Archbishop supported Rastafarians and was excommunicated for it.

Again, i'd like to see some official documentation on this please. An Ethiopian ArchBishop is not even within the Jurisdiction of the Coptic Orthodox Church in the first place; any ex-communication of an Ethiopian Heirarch is one that takes place by the authority of the Holy Synod of this autocephalas Church, and if such ex-communication indeed took place, then there would be official documentation from the Synod itself regarding the matter.

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If indeed it is against Church doctrine to worship HIM Haile Selassie (a fact not reflected by any church document) then the Church is in shambles. 


First of all, I have proven to you in my previous posts that Rastafarianism stands in direct opposition to the Dogmatic Tradition of the Orthodox Church; it is not a question of 'if'; it is an undeniable, irrefutable hardcore fact. There doesn't need to be an official church document specifically addressing every single sect and faith on the face of the earth in order for those sects and faiths to be deemed heresies. In those previous posts of mine in which I sought to prove (and successfully at that) that Rastafarianism cannot be reconciled with Orthodoxy, I appealed to the Dogmatic Tradition of the Church as expressed through the Ecumenical Councils and the Holy Scriptures; anyone who holds to any belief that stands opposed to that Holy Tradition is automatically anathema - those opposing beliefs do not need to be identified by name.

Second of all, I fail to see how your assertion regarding the Church being in shambles follows from your previous claim that Abune Yeshaq was ex-communicated for supporting the Rastafarian faith. Assuming your claim regarding Abune Yeshaq to be true, it stands as proof that the Church is steadily opposing your faith to the point of depriving the right to membership and Communion of those in authority who support your faith.   
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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2006, 02:38:32 AM »

“Significantly divergent”?  I must have missed that lesson in Rasta Heretical Cult 101.  Of course I missed the death threat training in Rasta Heretical Cult 102, and the racist rants in 103.  It seems I have along way to go before I meet the “abomination” standard which being a Rastafarian calls for!

Norman Redington, an Orthodox Christian, wrote the following conclusion to his “Sketch of Rastafari History”: “I believe that the Rastafarians have been greatly underestimated by the outside world, including, to some extent, many elements in the Orthodox community. The classical Rastas were sophisticated theological and philosophical thinkers, not cargo-cultists worshiping newspaper photos of an African despot. They had discovered many sophisticated theological concepts for themselves, and had retraced many of the Christological and other debates of the early Church. They brought a truly rich cultural and artistic legacy, including some of the twentieth century's most moving hymnography.

While Abuna Yesehaq, at least, certainly seems to recognize this, in practice Rastas often seem to be told by the church that they must become Ethiopians in order to become Orthodox. Many are willing to do this, so great is their thirst for Truth and so acute their sense of having lost their true African culture. More, however, are not--and in a way rightly so. The Church is the poorer to the extent it does not incorporate what is good about the Rasta experience and instead tiresomely emphasizes the "heresy of emperor-worship" and "herbal sorcery". What is forgotten is that the existence of the Rastafari movement is a miracle: a forgotten people and a lost culture bringing itself by "reasonings" to the very edge of Orthodoxy. Surely this is a supernatural event, and so the Orthodox Rastas see it.”

Surely, it was apparent to the author that the “cult” made a pretty decent attempt at so-called Orthodoxy.  Of course, all here would disagree; maybe Mr. Redington should be excommunicated??

I did not say that the Ethiopian Orthodox hierarchs did not oppose Rastafarianism.  What I said was that they failed to CONSISTENTLY oppose it.  In other words, although many Church officials, indeed maybe even the majority, do in fact, oppose the heresy, some do not.

Now this seems odd when from what has been said here, a third-party observer could see ample reason to view Rastafarianism as the greatest internal and/or external threat to the sanctity of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church.  In fact, one Church I contacted was unaware of the differences that result between the two groups (in defence of that particular church, it is unlikely to encounter Rastas).

This conclusion is even more disturbing when evidence has shown the untrained eye to confuse the two distinct groups.  Now surely the Church would not want that??

You wish me to provide evidence to back my claim that the hierarchs do not oppose Rastafari??  At the risk of sacrificing this debate as a loss, I will state this:  Although the priests may demand and receive verbal denial of HIM divinity before baptism, those same priests are allowing the baptized to revert back to their “heretical” ways, and still attend services.

I have given evidence three times to you (twice on this forum, and once privately) exactly detailing how much support both the Emperor and the Imperial Family have granted the Rasta community.  I shouldn’t need to give it again, when all three times have received no response.  When asked to tell the Rastas he wasn’t divine, he said “Who am I to deny their faith?”  Forgive me, I doubt even a humble Orthodox Christian would be so tolerant.

My objection is unreasonable??  I have heard claims from albeit a biased Amharic speaker that the phraseology of the English answer did not match the Amharic original.  Therefore, I ask for an impartial Amharic speaker to clarify that the original UNDUBBED recording matches the translation.  Also, the response I gave was not mine; it was that of another Rasta, I freely acknowledge that although it may conform to a conservative Rasta viewpoint, its key elements are certainly not in agreement with Orthodoxy.  Again I have said that before.

Now forgetting the shoddy translation and the conservative Rasta answers, I can easily state the following: Rastas do not “assume” or “pretend” anything, we know.  Christ is a man (with a divine nature), was mortal (if He did not die on the Cross, a whole lot of doctrine flies out the window), and did in fact *emanate* from a deity.  Therefore, was the Emperor telling us not to believe in Christ?  Of course not.  You accuse me of doubting a translation because it is not in accordance with what I believe, yet you also interpret the translation only the way you want to see it. C’mon!

Official documentation??  Do you think the Church is releasing its archives white kid “heretic” from Canada??  The same interview in which he describes baptizing Berhane Selassie, the Archbishop clearly states that he was *sent* by HIM specifically to form the EOTC in Jamaica.

Once again I am reposting stuff.

http://www.rastafarispeaks.com/cgi-bin/forum/archive1/config.pl?noframes;read=48643

“Rev. Connor said both in Bermuda and the Caribbean, people don't know the difference between Rastafarians and the Orthodox churches.
He said a former Ethiopian archbishop for the West, Abuna Yeshaq, "who condoned bad practices and wrong beliefs" including some aspects of Rastafarianism, was partly to blame.
The Archbishop has since been excommunicated, he said.”

Rev. Antonious Connor is an Orthodox priest, from what I can find at least.  I have asked a Coptic friend to confirm or deny this “excommunication” from their side, the EOTC I am in contact with certainly does not act as if HH was excommunicated.  I was unable to find the article through the newspaper, due to the article’s age.

Once again, I find it odd that the very Church official selected to remedy the Rasta “heresy” did support such nefarious activities within his flock.  And if you are willing to peruse that thread on the Rasta forum, you will find several examples where the EOTC has supported Rastafari.

Throughout 9 pages of replies on two different threads, members here have gone to great lengths to show me that my belief system is not Orthodox, not correct, it is blasphemy, it is heresy, based on bad interpretation of Scripture, it is the deification of one who was most certainly not a deity; it is nothing but pot-smoking non-Christian people who levy death threats and use a religious excuse to mask illegal activity.  It also turns out that this belief system has attempted to infest itself within the Church, and in many cases its members are confused with the Church.

All of that yet the Church does not deem it necessary to release a document absolutely condemning the whole thing and stating its fervent prayer that our poor, confused, heretical souls may repent from our evil ways??

Do you then wish to claim that the lack of such a document is merely proof that the Church considers it obvious that such beliefs are heretical in nature??  Funny the level of cooperation the Church will extend to heretics that it condemns.

The Church in shambles??  Did you read what I said??  Rastas are being and have been baptized as members of the EOTC across the globe.  Why is the Church not stopping this?? Why are priests not being made aware of this heresy?? The Archbishop of the EOTC for the Western Hemisphere (May his soul rest in peace) has supposedly condoned these wanton beliefs.  There are Rastas in Ethiopian seminaries.

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« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2006, 05:27:54 AM »

Quote
“Significantly divergent”? I must have missed that lesson in Rasta Heretical Cult 101.  Of course I missed the death threat training in Rasta Heretical Cult 102, and the racist rants in 103.  It seems I have along way to go before I meet the “abomination” standard which being a Rastafarian calls for!

You worship a dead human emperor as God. The significant divergence is plain and obvious to any Orthodox Christian. You are on an Orthodox Christian website, and we are presenting to you the Orthodox Christian truth. We are not imposing our beliefs on you, nor are we attacking you personally; you came to us, and we are giving you the Orthodox position on your faith. Why can't you just accept and respect that?

Quote
Surely, it was apparent to the author that the “cult” made a pretty decent attempt at so-called Orthodoxy.  Of course, all here would disagree; maybe Mr. Redington should be excommunicated??

I’m not sure why Mr. Redington, whoever he is (for I certainly have not heard of him), would be ex-communicated. He is presenting a personal point of view on a matter that is not pertinent to the issue at hand (i.e. the fact emperor-worship is blasphemous in the Orthodox experience). He is simply saying that the Rasta culture has some good elements. I don’t doubt that. Islam has good elements to it too. As does Buddhism, Hinduism, and a range of other cults and sects. That does not mean all these cults are compatible with Orthodox Christianity, or that those elements which separate them from us are trivial enough to ignore.

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I did not say that the Ethiopian Orthodox hierarchs did not oppose Rastafarianism.  What I said was that they failed to CONSISTENTLY oppose it.  In other words, although many Church officials, indeed maybe even the majority, do in fact, oppose the heresy, some do not.

Well I would like to see proof of it. I don’t want hearsay. I’m sure if I were to purport slanderous claims against Rastafari leaders that you would want something more concrete than hearsay or anecdotal testimony that cannot be objectively verified. Instead of getting offended, remember that you are on an Orthodox Christian forum; have a little empathy, and remember: "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

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In fact, one Church I contacted was unaware of the differences that result between the two groups (in defence of that particular church, it is unlikely to encounter Rastas).

So what? I’m sure I could contact a number of Orthodox parishes and find that they know very little about Rastafarianism, or Islam, or Buddhism, or Scientology etc. why would an Orthodox parish be necessarily informed as to the nature and beliefs of the millions of religious beliefs that exist in this world?

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Although the priests may demand and receive verbal denial of HIM divinity before baptism, those same priests are allowing the baptized to revert back to their “heretical” ways, and still attend services.

Again, you’re appealing to either hearsay or anecdotal testimony that cannot be objectively verified, and as such, it is meaningless. Even that which you’re appealing to sounds rather absurd; why would clergy expect Rastafarians to officially renounce their faith at baptism if they’re just going to let them revert back to those beliefs later without taking disciplinary action? The story you tell doesn’t even sound reasonable in itself; it implicitly imputes dishonesty the holy Orthodox clergy. I find it offensive, especially so in light of the absolute lack of reliable evidence. Again, I repeat: "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof".

Quote
I have given evidence three times to you (twice on this forum, and once privately) exactly detailing how much support both the Emperor and the Imperial Family have granted the Rasta community.

No, you have given me no such evidence of the sort you claim. In what capacity did the Emperor support the Rastas? As a religious movement? Or as an impoverished people who were in dire need of help, spiritual and otherwise? He sent Aboune Yeshaq to correct your misinterpretation of Ethiopian culture. I went through this in my previous response to you which you have yet to respond to.

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When asked to tell the Rastas he wasn’t divine, he said “Who am I to deny their faith?”


Show me exactly where he made that statement in response to that inquiry. I would like to see reliable sources evidencing that statement and the context in which it was allegedly made. I have already discussed at length the explicit denial of HIM to the Rastafarian conception of him. You have yet to respond to that; you copped-out by questioning the translation without any substantial basis for doing so.

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Forgive me, I doubt even a humble Orthodox Christian would be so tolerant.

Does your concept of tolerance entail compromise of the truth? I’m sorry but the Orthodox Christian concept of tolerance certainly does not.

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I have heard claims from albeit a biased Amharic speaker that the phraseology of the English answer did not match the Amharic original.


Then propose the alternative translation and provide the reasons behind it and we will investigate the reliability of that claim. Or do you just want to put your faith in the claim’s of another, whom you have admitted to be a prejudiced source, simply because such claims are in harmony with your presuppositions?

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Christ is a man (with a divine nature), was mortal (if He did not die on the Cross, a whole lot of doctrine flies out the window), and did in fact *emanate* from a deityTherefore, was the Emperor telling us not to believe in Christ?  Of course not.

I already dealt with this in the response I made a while ago which you have yet to respond to. The Emperor was telling you that he is mortal in opposition to the Rastafarian conception of him. He was therefore asserting his mere mortality. To say that he was simply affirming one aspect of his nature in conformity with the Rastafarian conception of him, is to completely ignore the context of his statement which was purposed to explicate his nature in opposition to the Rastafarian conception of him as God. Let me put it for you another way: Christ is, as you admit, immortal and mortal (God and man), thus, if the Emperor thought himself to be Christ, then in response to an inquiry as to his thoughts on those that consider him to be God, he would not have asserted his mortality as if in contradiction to the idea he is God; he would have said something like, “well, they’re right, I am God, and as they believe, I am man also”. Yet he didn't and history proves that he was not immortal, else he would have risen bodily from the grave like the true Christ did 2000 years ago. The fact of the matter is however, his body was not raised; it is lying in the earth as dust.

Anyway, as I already told you, once Christ rose from the dead, His humanity was a glorified humanity; it was immortal. That is how our salvation was effected! Christ defeated death by trampling upon death and destroying it. This is the dogmatic Tradition of the Orthodox Church. Christ could only die ONCE. He could not re-incarnate and die again; what utter absurdity.

Your Rastafarianism defies fundamental Christological and Soteriological presuppositions which are basic to most forms of Christianity, especially that particular form of Christianity HIM was an obedient member of.

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You accuse me of doubting a translation because it is not in accordance with what I believe, yet you also interpret the translation only the way you want to see it.

I have interpreted the translation the way any normal, reasonable, honest, objective human being would interpret it; the way it would be interpreted by one concerned with finding the truth, as opposed to being concerned with blindly attempting to validate their beliefs at the cost of the truth.

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Official documentation??  Do you think the Church is releasing its archives white kid “heretic” from Canada??


So what you’re essentially saying is: “because I don’t have access to any official documentation, you should just listen to what I have to say in spite of the fact my opinion is not based on anything reliable or official.”

Listen, you're claiming that the Coptic Orthodox Church ex-communicated Abune Yeshaq. Whenever the Coptic Orthodox Church ex-communicates a prominent figure, it is usually announced in the popular magazine titled El-Karaza, so that members of the Church are aware that they need to beware of such figures. When you find me where in El-Karaza it has announced the ex-communication of Abune Yeshaq then come to talk to me. Your search will be difficult considering you have practically no information to go on except a citation from an Orthodox priest given in an article written by God-knows-who and uploaded on various Rastafarian websites.

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The same interview in which he describes baptizing Berhane Selassie, the Archbishop clearly states that he was *sent* by HIM specifically to form the EOTC in Jamaica.

So? That Abune Yeshaq makes a statement attributing his being sent to HIM could simply be intended to convey the fact that such a mission took place according to HIM’s will and desire; who said anything about whose authority was ultimately responsible for such action? In light of any evidence to the contrary, it is only reasonable to presume in light of normative Orthodox praxis that HIM “sent” Abune Yeshaq indirectly, in consultation with and with approval of the Holy Synod.

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Rev. Antonious Connor is an Orthodox priest, from what I can find at least.  I have asked a Coptic friend to confirm or deny this “excommunication” from their side, the EOTC I am in contact with certainly does not act as if HH was excommunicated.

You’re using a quotation from one priest, cited in a dubious source that is not found anywhere but Rastafatrian websites. Hardly a reliable source of information. That is the problem with your position on just about everything, the basis for it is hearsay, conjecture, and dubious sources.

If the EOTC says that Abune Yeshaq wasn’t ex-communicated, then assuming that Fr. Antonious truly said what he is attributed to him, we would have to conclude that Fr. Antonious is misinformed. The only authority capable of ex-communicating an Ethiopian Orthodox Bishop, is the Ethiopian Orthodox Synod. Not a Coptic priest, not a Coptic Bishop, not even an Ethiopian Orthodox priest or Bishop, but a group of Ethiopian Orthodox Bishops who form the Holy Synod of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

Quote
Once again, I find it odd that the very Church official selected to remedy the Rasta “heresy” did support such nefarious activities within his flock.


Yet you have cited no reliable evidence to suggest that Aboune Yeshaq supported the Rastafarians as a religious movement. Again, your position is based on hearsay, conjecture, and dubious sources.

Quote
Do you then wish to claim that the lack of such a document is merely proof that the Church considers it obvious that such beliefs are heretical in nature??

Any person with common sense can see the logic here. If the Ethiopian Orthodox Church adheres to Dogma X, then anything contrary to X is automatically heresy; it doesn't need to be specifically pronounced as such. That is how the Church operates. There is Truth and there is divergence from Truth. Truth = Orthodoxy, divergence = heresy. It’s A, B, C, logic. We have official documents that impose open blanket anathemas on ANYONE who contradicts these fundamental dogmas. Any belief system that diverges from the Truth incurs the Church’s anathema. The person or group need not be listed by name.

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Did you read what I said??


Yes, I read hearsay, conjecture, and appeal to dubious sources. When you find reliable and real sources to base your position on, come back to me. How can you expect me to investigate your mere claim that a mass number of Rastafaris are being baptised into the Orthodox Church with clerical knowledge that they haven’t renounced their heresies? You might as well claim that President Bush worships an elephant, because that’s about as reliable as anything else you’ve claimed thus far.
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« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2006, 01:13:01 PM »

Rastaman,

Did not Abune Yeshaq say that one must denounce HIM's divinity to become part of the Church.  Why then do you question whether or not he was excommunicated?  This shows that even an Ethiopian Christian outside the Ethiopian Orthodox jurisdiction (if he was outside) asked Rastas to denounce the divinity of HIM.  The article you provided was very clear.

Thus, regardless of what insider priests are teaching or believing, Abune Yeshaq, a HUGE and respectful authority of the Rastafarians, sent by HIM himself, is telling you to denounce his divinity.

Putting Abune Yeshaq into the conversation only makes your position worse, and if he was excommunicated, it just comes to show that EVEN an excommunicated man requests the denunciation of such a claim.  I believe though that perhaps Abune Yeshaq may have joined the Ethiopian faction in America that claims to have true Apostolic successorship, which may be why you might hear that's he's not considered (anymore) part of the Church, an ecclesiological reason which has NOTHING to do with Rastafarianism and his efforts to clear the clouds of confusion Rastafarianism has given to people.  Read this to know more:

http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=153&catid=135
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/12/AR2006011201952.html

God bless.

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« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2006, 02:44:42 PM »

EkhristosAnesti,

The supposedly divergent beliefs are in the main as follows: the worship of a man as God and saviour, and the use of marijuana as a sacrament.  Now given that the largest mansion of Rastafarians, the Twelve Tribes of Israel, does not support either of these two “divergent” beliefs, how can Rastafarianism be declared anathema??

Accept and respect??  Since when did I ever disrespect Orthodoxy??  By my beliefs??  I doubt that.  I have never claimed to be Orthodox and oh so many here have clearly shown that I cannot be Orthodox.

Proof?? By that you mean that you wish for me to defend my preposterous claims, but I cannot use a source (i.e. a Rasta source) to prove myself correct.

Available online in .pdf format is a document that explicitly describes the baptism of a “Selassie worshipper” (Christafarian term for us) Rastafarian into the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church.  This document includes pictures all the individuals involved, and also goes on describe just how involved the EOTC is in the Rastafari movement.  Knowing the baptised individual personally-as well as other individuals present-I present the following:

1. The priest knew the individual was a Rastafarian.
2. The priest has been acknowledged by a member of this forum as an ordained EOTC clergyman.
3. During a baptism class, the priest answered questions about the EOTC from a Rasta delegation.
4. The priest requested a verbal renunciation of the divinity of HIM Haile Selassie prior to baptism.
5.  The priest was aware that the individual retained Rastafarian beliefs after his baptism.
6.  Despite the above, both the individual and other baptized Rastas attended a service at the EOTC.
7.  Holy Communion was received by all the baptized Rastas.

Once again, you consistently ask me to source claims, which when sourced as Rastafarian in nature, you can easily disregard them as biased.

With regards to the Amharic answer, it has been alleged that the clause "I am mortal" was not present in His original answer.  Now, I have very limited experience with Amharic, and the recording online has overdubbed with English, therefore I simply ask that the text is confirmed.

What I am saying is, I am not Orthodox, I am according to many here a heretic, and therefore I have no ability to confirm my "allegations" through any archives.

What I gave you was a Bermuda Sun article which claims a church official alleges the Archbishop was excommunicated.  That article was posted to one Rastafarian website by a Rasta who does not see HIM Haile Selassie as God or Jesus Christ or any other divine figure.  Why would she post an article which attacks the credibility of the church official who was sent to eradicate the worship of Haile Selassie??

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« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2006, 04:45:04 PM »

EkristosAnest

Rastaman should be asked to recite the Nicean Creed.

He will not find any mention of rasta belief in the prayer of faith we go by.

I have refused to post in his regard any further. I find this person completely void of the virtue of a catachumen or anyone seeking the truth. He is happy with his life outside the Church.

I am prepared to reply on this thread to your posts or others to support what you all are willing to provide to defend the EOTC and the great Universal Orthodox faith.

I have a few former rastas who are now true Orthodox Christians. I hope they will begin to view this site and add support to this thread.

Thanks.
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