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Panagiotis
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« on: August 24, 2006, 03:02:07 PM »

Why did the Vatican require an army at one time in their history? Was God not protecting the RCC enough so they had to do it on their own? What was the purpose for their need for arms throughout history? And why does the Papacy require diplomats for government intervention throughout history and even up to today?

This has been a question, though it can sound extremely rude to ask it, that has been on my heart for a very long time. I would just like to know, from a layman's perspective, why the need for military and political involvement?

I have not seen much, actually very little political involvement within the confines of Orthodoxy, except from Constantinople but the letters left behind(records) show that the Patriarch was trying to separate the State FROM the Church and truly desired a lack of government involvement. If I am wrong, please let me know.

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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2006, 03:10:52 PM »

Remember that the Pope was/is a temporal leader (the Papal Estates - now reduced since about 1870 to just the Vatican City). Just a small factor and not a full answer to your good question.
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2006, 03:23:41 PM »

Why did the Vatican require an army at one time in their history? Was God not protecting the RCC enough so they had to do it on their own? What was the purpose for their need for arms throughout history? And why does the Papacy require diplomats for government intervention throughout history and even up to today?

This has been a question, though it can sound extremely rude to ask it, that has been on my heart for a very long time. I would just like to know, from a layman's perspective, why the need for military and political involvement?

I have not seen much, actually very little political involvement within the confines of Orthodoxy, except from Constantinople but the letters left behind(records) show that the Patriarch was trying to separate the State FROM the Church and truly desired a lack of government involvement. If I am wrong, please let me know.

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Forgive me if I misinterpret you but the way you word your question sounds a bit loaded: "Was God not protecting the RCC enough that they had to do it on their own?" Well, in the west we tend to take an interesting view of things. We pray for God aid and protect us but then we WORK towards that same goal. Sorta like putting our prayers into action with faith that the LORD will aid us in our work. As for politics, please forgive me if I misunderstand history. And, by all means, do not take anything I say as an insult because it not intended in such a way. Now, on to what I am about to say. Relations between religion and secular powers are always very complicated. I can appreciate that. The Catholic Church has not always done a perfect job of dealing with such situations. However, I was told that the reason that he Vatican had an army and, also, the reason that there were Papal states, was to protect the Vactican from influence from secular power so that the Church could function uninhibited by the state. I think this was a wise decision in light of the fact that there were so many church and state problems during the middle ages.
Now, I must point out that Eastern Orthodox were not always innocent when it came to problems with church state relationships. I mean look at what happened to the Russian Orthodox Church during communism (yes I know this was forced upon the ROC). Look at how Eastern Roman Emperor exercised control of the Patriarch of Constantinople. My point is neither Church is composed of perfect people and neither Church is free from problems with politics.
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2006, 03:32:27 PM »

For once, I have no opinion - a rare occasion.
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« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2006, 04:14:31 PM »

Why did the Vatican require an army at one time in their history? Was God not protecting the RCC enough so they had to do it on their own? What was the purpose for their need for arms throughout history? And why does the Papacy require diplomats for government intervention throughout history and even up to today?

This has been a question, though it can sound extremely rude to ask it, that has been on my heart for a very long time. I would just like to know, from a layman's perspective, why the need for military and political involvement?

I have not seen much, actually very little political involvement within the confines of Orthodoxy, except from Constantinople but the letters left behind(records) show that the Patriarch was trying to separate the State FROM the Church and truly desired a lack of government involvement. If I am wrong, please let me know.

Blessings,
Panagiotis

I will keep my opinions on the Latin Church to myself so as not to offend anyone.  But assuming that the question in general is really "why would any religious country need an army if their trust is in God?", we must keep in mind that even Israel when under God's blessing had an army.  Sometimes God works directly, sometimes he helps us use our own devices.  I don't believe that the measure of the holiness of a country is whether or not it has an army, but rather how that army is used.
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« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2006, 05:58:09 PM »

The Church is full of military saints.   Glory To God for St Alexander Nevsky - a true peacemaker
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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2006, 12:08:56 AM »

If I were a RC I'd probably just point out how many Orthodox bishops seek/need protection from earthly sources.

FWW: the guards are Swiss.
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« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2006, 04:24:13 AM »

If I were a RC I'd probably just point out how many Orthodox bishops seek/need protection from earthly sources.

FWW: the guards are Swiss.

Hmmmm...where, when?

Kosovo, Constantinople, Damacus, Jerusalem, Alexandria, soviet Russia? Just wondering, of course.
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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2006, 11:36:57 AM »

http://directionstoorthodoxy.org/mod/news/view.php?article_id=5110
http://tmatt.gospelcom.net/column/2004/07/07/
http://www.westsrbdio.org/info/showarticle.php?article=796
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« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2006, 02:31:58 PM »

Not very convincing, I must say.
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« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2006, 03:44:53 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9839.msg133192#msg133192 date=1156530718]
Not very convincing, I must say.
[/quote]

I also agree, after reading the above, not very convincing. 
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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2006, 04:16:18 PM »

Quote
Why did the Vatican require an army at one time in their history? Was God not protecting the RCC enough so they had to do it on their own? What was the purpose for their need for arms throughout history? And why does the Papacy require diplomats for government intervention throughout history and even up to today?

The Church-State relationship evolved very differently in Rome than it did in Constantinople because of the collapse of the empire in the former and relatively recent demise of the Eastern half of the Roman Empire.

Why does Mount Athos have a police force (other than to evict monks that have run afoul of the patrichate...) and why is it a protectorate of Greece (and hence the Greek military and by extension NATO)?

Quote
Kosovo, Constantinople, Damacus, Jerusalem, Alexandria, soviet Russia? Just wondering, of course.

Sorry, but attempting to fight but being too incopetent to be victorious doesn't make one a non-militant. 
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« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2006, 05:05:28 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9839.msg133210#msg133210 date=1156536978]
Sorry, but attempting to fight but being too incopetent to be victorious doesn't make one a non-militant. 
[/quote]

I am sorry but you and I are on different planets. Where do you see armed monks, priests, bishops or private armies?
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« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2006, 05:25:05 PM »

OK, the assumption I made about the OP was that the RCC was being criticized for its us of forms of protection that included, but was not limited to, prayer.  The OP seems to imply that the Orthodox should be free to criticize because we don't use Swiss guards or even a Pope-mobile.  The links I posted were to 1) a news story about how Irineos I took back his see with civil forces, 2) the EP in Istanbul sleeps behind walls, 3) priest in Serbia used US civil forces.  The extent to which protection in Earthly form is used is of little indifference; the point is that it's used.  We as Orthodox, there for, have no right to criticize the RCC for utilizing its defences.
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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2006, 05:27:42 PM »

The EP sleeping in a place without walls? Wow, how ascetic.

You are kidding, no?

I merely answered why there was a Vatican "Army". Someone else decided on critisizing us to defend them from an apparent non-attack.
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« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2006, 06:37:47 PM »

Quote
I am sorry but you and I are on different planets. Where do you see armed monks, priests, bishops or private armies?

The structures are a little different, but the outcome is the same.  The current EP is using the Greek police like a personal army to remove those he doesn't like from Athos.  I didn't see many complaints from the Serbian Church about the Serb Army being used in Kosovo - nor the church condemning the nationalists during the Yugoslav war.... whether one does the fighting himself or simply benefits from the fighting while encouraging others to do, it is the same. 
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« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2006, 10:00:10 PM »

You guys are nuts!  Purely crazy  Roll Eyes

"Don't dial 911 - Welcome Seek martyrdom instead"

All Orthodox chaplins can quit now.

Churches need never lock a door (I'm sure you never lock yours).

Dismiss the armed forces,  Islamo-fascists will leave us alone (whether in Serbia or USA).

Don't call the FD -Let the monastery burn down, again.

The Great Schism would have happened 600-700 years earlier as the Donatists finally take over the Church - instead of Justinian recovering the Church in the west and restoring the Pope of Rome

You'd be an Arian now...


.....absolutely different planet.

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« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2006, 02:39:45 AM »

Quote
You guys are nuts!  Purely crazy 

"Don't dial 911 - Welcome Seek martyrdom instead"

All Orthodox chaplins can quit now.

Churches need never lock a door (I'm sure you never lock yours).

Dismiss the armed forces,  Islamo-fascists will leave us alone (whether in Serbia or USA).

Don't call the FD -Let the monastery burn down, again.

That is not what I am saying at all.  If people are going to cast stones at the RCC for the Vatican having a Swiss Gaurd or the former Papal States having an army etc. then to be consistent they should also condemn the Orthodox Church since AFAIK every majority Orthodox nation has used military force to defend itself.  What I'm getting at is, if you want to insult the Roman Catholics do it over something legitimate rather than grasping at straws.   
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« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2006, 04:45:23 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9839.msg133281#msg133281 date=1156574385]
That is not what I am saying at all.  If people are going to cast stones at the RCC for the Vatican having a Swiss Gaurd or the former Papal States having an army etc. then to be consistent they should also condemn the Orthodox Church since AFAIK every majority Orthodox nation has used military force to defend itself.  What I'm getting at is, if you want to insult the Roman Catholics do it over something legitimate rather than grasping at straws.   
[/quote]

Funny, I don't recall denegrating the RCC in any of my responses here. I did give a tiny bit of history. I did take issue with the examples given of the Orthodox used to defend the RCC from a non-existent attack.
Technically, the Papal Estates still exist, now reduced to Vatican City alone by "treaty" in 1869-1870 with the formation of modern Italy. Technically, the Vatican Army still exists, reduced to the Swiss Guards. So what? It WAS used both to defend the Papal Estates AND to keep the internal peasant population in line and supporting via taxation the clergy - historically, IF one wants to be critical. I do not, however.

I'm not grasping at straws young fellow because I'm neither attacking nor defending them. You are.
This recourse to 'civil authority' thing is silly. Constantine was civil authority. Without that civil authority you westerners would probably not be Christians to start with or Arians at "best".
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« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2006, 10:27:22 AM »

The Pope had an army for the same reason the Byzantine Empire, Russia, or any other country has an army - because it is a government and needs not only to maintain order but to keep various organized enemies from taking of the country. 

The Pope was the king and government of the Papal states for over a milenium.   Even after the Byzantine reconquest of Italy, he [generally] worked very closely with the Exarch (governor) much as other bishops would work closely with the temporal authorities, and became the de facto government of the area around Rome as de facto Byzantine power waned. 

After the Lombards came and ended the exarchate, the then-reigning Pope turned to the Franks to kick the Lombards out, and the king gave the Pope the territories of the former Exarchate as the Pope's duchy.   So, the Pope became a temporal duke as well as a bishop.   

Today there's no army, but he does have the Swiss guard, and they're basically a personal security detail.  There have been assasination attempts against the Pope within the last 25 years.
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« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2006, 12:18:50 PM »

Quote
Funny, I don't recall denegrating the RCC in any of my responses here. I did give a tiny bit of history. I did take issue with the examples given of the Orthodox used to defend the RCC from a non-existent attack.

The OP in this thread certainly did seem like it was meant as an insult to to the RCC.  Fair is fair, both Orthodoxy and Catholicism have benefited from militirary force. 
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« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2006, 12:49:37 PM »

Quote
The OP in this thread certainly did seem like it was meant as an insult to to the RCC.
The funny thing about all this is I was asking something I knew very little on. I was taught in my Protestant days that the RCC used their army aggreesively against other nations as though it were some elite force used primarly for Papal muscle. The Orthodox used their Imperial Army of the East for defense. This is what I was taught from Baptists. As for its accuracy, there is no backing to these claims.

I read a small article regarding the stance of the Vatican Army today, which consists of Swiss guards for defense of the Vatican(funny guys in pajamas) and the supposed Knights of Columbus Army which is world-wide. As to the claims of this article, the Pope can call up the Knights of Columbus at any time and they will be a force. Is this true? (the article is lost as is my PC history)

So I asked this question regarding why there needs to be an army. Has there been any Papal bullying with an army in the past and not just defensive purposes?

I am biased to Roman Catholics for two major reasons: 1) The Schism 2) They execution of several innocents at the hands of Tomas De Tourquenada the murderous, ignorant, foolish and hate-filled Friar of Spain. May his sins be forgiven but never forgotten. Kyrie Eleison.

Kyrie Eleison,
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« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2006, 01:08:16 PM »

The funny thing about all this is I was asking something I knew very little on. I was taught in my Protestant days that the RCC used their army aggreesively against other nations as though it were some elite force used primarly for Papal muscle. The Orthodox used their Imperial Army of the East for defense. This is what I was taught from Baptists. As for its accuracy, there is no backing to these claims. 

Sorry, the papal army was never an elite force.  Frankly, it was generally be hard-pressed to defend itself, and the Pope frequently had to appeal to Lombards, Franks, Normans, Germans, and diverse other countries to defend him.  And the Byzantine Army was decidedly not a defensive army.  Why did they occupy Italy, North Africa, and Spain during the reign of Justinian?   Why did they reconquer Syria from the Muslims?   Not saying that they shouldn't have (in fact if I were alive then I'd sign up for the campaign) but they were hardly a defense-only military force.   If you want to know more, a general history of the Byzantine or Russian empire (to name two such Orthodox powers) should be on your reading list. 

Quote
I read a small article regarding the stance of the Vatican Army today, which consists of Swiss guards for defense of the Vatican(funny guys in pajamas) and the supposed Knights of Columbus Army which is world-wide. As to the claims of this article, the Pope can call up the Knights of Columbus at any time and they will be a force. Is this true? (the article is lost as is my PC history)

Sorry, this is completely untrue.  Of course, the Swiss Guards exist.   It has 134 soldiers and is again basically a ceremonial and executive protection unit.    The defense of the Vatican is in the hands of the Italian Army.   
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Guard

As for the KOC, the best place to look for info on them is:
http://www.kofc.org/un/about/index.cfm

As far as I know, they're an international charitable organization.   I've never heard anything about them defending the Vatican; frankly the majority that I know would not be fit to serve in the US Army under current regulations.   

Quote
So I asked this question regarding why there needs to be an army. Has there been any Papal bullying with an army in the past and not just defensive purposes?

Has the US, Byzantine, Russian or any other army "bullied any one and not just for defensive purposes" in the past?   A definition of "bullying" often depends on who you ask.  I don't know if every single war the papal army fought can be labeled "defensive".  If you really want to know, I'd look at a general history of Catholicism (e.g. Warren Caroll's books; however he's a traditionalist type RC and you should read him with a grain of salt).  Stick with the facts they put out (and ont the conclusions) and come to your own conclusions.   Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any dedicated, "neutral" military history of the Papal Army from the 700s to the 1800s.   
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« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2006, 05:23:35 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9839.msg133324#msg133324 date=1156609130]
The OP in this thread certainly did seem like it was meant as an insult to to the RCC.  Fair is fair, both Orthodoxy and Catholicism have benefited from militirary force. 
[/quote]

Seem? You must read closer and not so quickly make assumptions.

As far as 'Fair is fair..." that's conjecture and a stretch at equality between the two.
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« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2006, 09:32:14 PM »

"Why did the Vatican require an army at one time in their history? Was God not protecting the RCC enough so they had to do it on their own?"

That reads very much like an attack on the RCC, because they were protecting themselves.  I never said it was wrong for the Church to use protection.
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« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2006, 03:17:55 PM »

Why not inject some dose of reality to the discussion of the "Vatican's Army" instead of dealing in speculations?

The "Swiss Guard" as gleaned straight from the horse's mouth: it is a small contigent of unmarried Swiss Catholics, mostly symbolic of an "army," but fiercely loyal to the Pope and, during an interregnum, to the College of Cardinals.

The Swiss Guard celebrated its 500th year of service this year, 2006. Read its history, admission requirements, the commitment of each guard, and its duties at:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/swiss_guard/index.htm

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« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2006, 04:34:10 PM »

Amado,
Beside the point
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« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2006, 05:59:13 PM »

The Pope had an army for the same reason the Byzantine Empire, Russia, or any other country has an army - because it is a government and needs not only to maintain order but to keep various organized enemies from taking of the country. 

The Pope was the king and government of the Papal states for over a milenium.   Even after the Byzantine reconquest of Italy, he [generally] worked very closely with the Exarch (governor) much as other bishops would work closely with the temporal authorities, and became the de facto government of the area around Rome as de facto Byzantine power waned. 

After the Lombards came and ended the exarchate, the then-reigning Pope turned to the Franks to kick the Lombards out, and the king gave the Pope the territories of the former Exarchate as the Pope's duchy.   So, the Pope became a temporal duke as well as a bishop.   

Today there's no army, but he does have the Swiss guard, and they're basically a personal security detail.  There have been assasination attempts against the Pope within the last 25 years.

So the tag of "ceasaropapism" can be applied to the west as well as the east?

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« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2006, 08:07:04 AM »

So the tag of "ceasaropapism" can be applied to the west as well as the east?

Absolutely!
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« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2006, 09:32:09 PM »

The structures are a little different, but the outcome is the same.  The current EP is using the Greek police like a personal army to remove those he doesn't like from Athos.  I didn't see many complaints from the Serbian Church about the Serb Army being used in Kosovo - nor the church condemning the nationalists during the Yugoslav war.... whether one does the fighting himself or simply benefits from the fighting while encouraging others to do, it is the same. 

On the contrary, Patriarch Pavle did condemn any uses of genocide by the Serbian Army on many occassions.
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« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2010, 05:31:31 AM »

Heck, the Russian Imperial Army was many times worse than the Inquisition and the Papal States combined.
Why do you condemn scholasticism when Orthodox scholars state that in Carist Russia the official state theology of the Russian Orthodox Church was a cheap calque of Western Scholasticism. The majority of the fathers of Orthodoxy in America and Western Europe walked a tight rope when they lived in pre-Bolshevik Russia. Florenski, Berdiaev, Shestov,Losski, Soloviov...
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« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2010, 09:10:18 AM »

Heck, the Russian Imperial Army was many times worse than the Inquisition and the Papal States combined.

LOL. Spoken like a Latin centric Pole.

The only part of the regalia of the king of Poland to survive (and preserved like a Holy Relic in the Wawel) you call Szczerbiec "knicked (sword),"  the king's sword.  And what is the explanation of how it got it's "knick?"  Duke Boleslaw, first king of Poland, struck the Golden Gate of Kiev with it. What was he doing in Kiev?  Invading to help put his son-in-law, Sviatopolk the Accursed, the murder of Saints Boris and Gleb, on St. Vladimir's throne. The Polish princess came with the Vatican bishop Reinbern of Kolberg, who of course acted as the agent of the Germanic suppressor of the Eastern Rites.  Russians have memories too.

Care to elaborate with what "atrocities" you are accusing the Russian Imperial Army of?

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Why do you condemn scholasticism when Orthodox scholars state that in Carist Russia the official state theology of the Russian Orthodox Church was a cheap calque of Western Scholasticism.


Because the Westoxification brought in by Peter made the official state theology of the Russian Orthodox Church a cheap calque of Western Scholasticism.


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The majority of the fathers of Orthodoxy in America and Western Europe walked a tight rope when they lived in pre-Bolshevik Russia. Florenski, Berdiaev, Shestov,Losski, Soloviov...
Soloviov should have been hung by that rope. Lossky didn't have trouble until he converted back to Orthodoxy, and the Soviets put him on the Philosophers Ship. Florenski's troubles started when his usefulness to the Soviets (he was an accomplished electric engineer, and worked for the Soviet expansion of electricity in his cassok) was overshadowed by his Orthodoxy.  Berdiaev was arrested for his Marxism, not his Orthodoxy.  Lev Shestov was Jewish, not Orthodox.
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« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2010, 10:01:48 AM »

Actually that tale about Szczerbiec knicked in Kiev is fake.
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« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2010, 01:07:53 PM »

Actually that tale about Szczerbiec knicked in Kiev is fake.

as is the tale that Boleslaw ever had it. But Boleslaw's invasion was real enough, as were the successive ones that his succcessors waged against Russia until the Imperial Army put an end to them.  The sword was merely forged to embody that.
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« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2010, 05:22:37 PM »

I've heard that the Greek Orthodox priests fought alongside their kinsmen when their country was invaded by the Nazis in WWII. Has anyone else heard this?

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« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2010, 05:54:33 AM »

Heck, the Russian Imperial Army was many times worse than the Inquisition and the Papal States combined.

LOL. Spoken like a Latin centric Pole.

The only part of the regalia of the king of Poland to survive (and preserved like a Holy Relic in the Wawel) you call Szczerbiec "knicked (sword),"  the king's sword.  And what is the explanation of how it got it's "knick?"  Duke Boleslaw, first king of Poland, struck the Golden Gate of Kiev with it. What was he doing in Kiev?  Invading to help put his son-in-law, Sviatopolk the Accursed, the murder of Saints Boris and Gleb, on St. Vladimir's throne. The Polish princess came with the Vatican bishop Reinbern of Kolberg, who of course acted as the agent of the Germanic suppressor of the Eastern Rites.  Russians have memories too.

Care to elaborate with what "atrocities" you are accusing the Russian Imperial Army of?
The holy army of long bearded holy warriors defending the Holy Tsar and the Holy Church, in its sacred function of holy and all blessed policeman of the world, in its holy fury raped, pillaged and murdered thousands. Well, one example, there is a church about 15 minutes walk from where I am writing. In 1794,the Cossacks came here to establish the Tsar's rule. In fear, the local peasantry moved out of their homes deep into the forests. The Russians searched the local villages and burnt down many homes. After breaking down the church door, the Cossacks came in and stole the chalice, ciborium and tabernacle which they later sold in Russia. Sacrilege!
This and similar incidents were repeated throughout the country.
But the holy Tsar and the Holy Holy Russian Army, made up of holymen, who were always holy in their holiness, in their fidelity to holiness, in their sanctity murdered hundreds of Orthodox priests in 1915. It is weird how the immaculate Tsarist army became a part of the Bolshevik Soviet machine. Do you forget that the officially Tsarist army was the main mode of revolution in Russia.
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« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2010, 07:31:36 AM »

Are we going to start an argument who was worse?

I suppose you must have heard of Sikorski's catharsis. You may also have heard about destroying more than 20 churches and murdering many of the Priests, their wives and lay people in 1920s-30s. You could also heard about discrimination of the Orthodox in 15th and 16th century and persecution of the Orthodox in the 17th century. I suppose you are not aware of an officer of Wolność i Niezawisłość (Romuald Rajs) who in 1946 murdered at least 79 peasants (including little children, elderly people and pregnant women) just because they had been Orthodox.

Among both RC and EO believers were good and bad people. Is it so hard to understand?
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« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2010, 10:24:48 AM »

Heck, the Russian Imperial Army was many times worse than the Inquisition and the Papal States combined.

LOL. Spoken like a Latin centric Pole.

The only part of the regalia of the king of Poland to survive (and preserved like a Holy Relic in the Wawel) you call Szczerbiec "knicked (sword),"  the king's sword.  And what is the explanation of how it got it's "knick?"  Duke Boleslaw, first king of Poland, struck the Golden Gate of Kiev with it. What was he doing in Kiev?  Invading to help put his son-in-law, Sviatopolk the Accursed, the murder of Saints Boris and Gleb, on St. Vladimir's throne. The Polish princess came with the Vatican bishop Reinbern of Kolberg, who of course acted as the agent of the Germanic suppressor of the Eastern Rites.  Russians have memories too.

Care to elaborate with what "atrocities" you are accusing the Russian Imperial Army of?
The holy army of long bearded holy warriors defending the Holy Tsar and the Holy Church, in its sacred function of holy and all blessed policeman of the world, in its holy fury raped, pillaged and murdered thousands.

That's a rather vague accusation.  Can you supply some details.


Quote
Well, one example, there is a church about 15 minutes walk from where I am writing. In 1794,the Cossacks came here to establish the Tsar's rule. In fear, the local peasantry moved out of their homes deep into the forests. The Russians searched the local villages and burnt down many homes. After breaking down the church door, the Cossacks came in and stole the chalice, ciborium and tabernacle which they later sold in Russia. Sacrilege!

Of course, if the Polish king hadn't been so hell bent on forcing the Orthodox into submission to the Vatican, the Cossacks wouldn't have had to turn to the Czar.  Met. St. Peter Movila/Mohyla formed an Orthodox ethos loyal to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, but the Polish king would have none of it.  I don't know where you are: are you sure that the Church wasn't one of the many, MANY that the Polish king confiscated from the Orthodox?

Btw, your sword was saved from being melted down, with the rest of your crown jewels, by being sold in Russia.



Quote
This and similar incidents were repeated throughout the country.

Do tell us.



Quote
But the holy Tsar and the Holy Holy Russian Army, made up of holymen, who were always holy in their holiness, in their fidelity to holiness, in their sanctity murdered hundreds of Orthodox priests in 1915. It is weird how the immaculate Tsarist army became a part of the Bolshevik Soviet machine. Do you forget that the officially Tsarist army was the main mode of revolution in Russia.
But not the Bolshevik Revolution: the army was White.  Interesting how the Bolsheviks and Piłsudski depended on the Socialism of the minorities.  Isn't he the one who got your sword back?
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« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2010, 03:20:52 PM »

Are we going to start an argument who was worse?

I suppose you must have heard of Sikorski's catharsis. You may also have heard about destroying more than 20 churches and murdering many of the Priests, their wives and lay people in 1920s-30s. You could also heard about discrimination of the Orthodox in 15th and 16th century and persecution of the Orthodox in the 17th century. I suppose you are not aware of an officer of Wolność i Niezawisłość (Romuald Rajs) who in 1946 murdered at least 79 peasants (including little children, elderly people and pregnant women) just because they had been Orthodox.

Among both RC and EO believers were good and bad people. Is it so hard to understand?
True, we dislike each other very much but I would like to share something. It is better to be a radical than a syncretist said Bruno Leoni, famous Italian lawyer and economic liberalist. To tell you the truth, I have never heard of persecution of Orthodox in the I Rzeczpospolita. I remember the Konfederacja Warszawska 1573, the multiethnic and multi-religious Commonwealth in which all the members of the nobility were equal brothers.

 I don't know much about the underground resistance to the Nazis and Communists.
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« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2010, 03:25:11 PM »


As I said above it is better to be radical than a syncretist. Hopefully, in the next couple of years we Roman Catholics will return to our traditional understanding of the Orthodox world. All of this syncretism which has gone on in the last 50 years is enough.
No, this place has never had an Orthodox minority, for it is too far West.
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« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2010, 03:32:32 PM »

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The OP in this thread certainly did seem like it was meant as an insult to to the RCC.
The funny thing about all this is I was asking something I knew very little on. I was taught in my Protestant days that the RCC used their army aggreesively against other nations as though it were some elite force used primarly for Papal muscle. The Orthodox used their Imperial Army of the East for defense. This is what I was taught from Baptists. As for its accuracy, there is no backing to these claims.

I read a small article regarding the stance of the Vatican Army today, which consists of Swiss guards for defense of the Vatican(funny guys in pajamas) and the supposed Knights of Columbus Army which is world-wide. As to the claims of this article, the Pope can call up the Knights of Columbus at any time and they will be a force. Is this true? (the article is lost as is my PC history)

So I asked this question regarding why there needs to be an army. Has there been any Papal bullying with an army in the past and not just defensive purposes?

I am biased to Roman Catholics for two major reasons: 1) The Schism 2) They execution of several innocents at the hands of Tomas De Tourquenada the murderous, ignorant, foolish and hate-filled Friar of Spain. May his sins be forgiven but never forgotten. Kyrie Eleison.

Kyrie Eleison,
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« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2010, 03:35:59 PM »

I am Holy Warrior. Level 12 Paladin.  Wink
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« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2010, 03:41:11 PM »

I have never heard of persecution of Orthodox in the I Rzeczpospolita. I remember the Konfederacja Warszawska 1573, the multiethnic and multi-religious Commonwealth in which all the members of the nobility were equal brothers.

http://www.cerkiew.pl/index.php?id=prawoslawie&a_id=198

I recommend you read parts II, III and IV.

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I don't know much about the underground resistance to the Nazis and Communists.
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romuald_Rajs
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 03:42:28 PM by mike » Logged
ialmisry
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« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2010, 03:47:50 PM »

Are we going to start an argument who was worse?

I suppose you must have heard of Sikorski's catharsis. You may also have heard about destroying more than 20 churches and murdering many of the Priests, their wives and lay people in 1920s-30s. You could also heard about discrimination of the Orthodox in 15th and 16th century and persecution of the Orthodox in the 17th century. I suppose you are not aware of an officer of Wolność i Niezawisłość (Romuald Rajs) who in 1946 murdered at least 79 peasants (including little children, elderly people and pregnant women) just because they had been Orthodox.

Among both RC and EO believers were good and bad people. Is it so hard to understand?
True, we dislike each other very much but I would like to share something. It is better to be a radical than a syncretist said Bruno Leoni, famous Italian lawyer and economic liberalist. To tell you the truth, I have never heard of persecution of Orthodox in the I Rzeczpospolita.

Then you haven't been listening.

Quote
I remember the Konfederacja Warszawska 1573, the multiethnic and multi-religious Commonwealth in which all the members of the nobility were equal brothers.

Didn't apply to Brest in 1595.

 
Quote
I don't know much about the underground resistance to the Nazis and Communists.
How convenient.
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« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2010, 03:55:19 PM »

The roots of the Vatican Army stem from Rome being given the lands of the last Exarch of Revenna. As the Empire collapsed the Pope was given the those lands to in effect be his own Exarch and protect himself and the Christian West who was without a Western Emperor, Caesar, etc.
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