Do Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that Mary is...

[Papist]

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that Mary is
1) Sinless
2) Assumed body and soul into heaven
3) Queen of Heaven
?

[Anastasios]

1) yes

2) yes if we understand that she died first and then her body was assumed and resurrected

3) yes

We also do not usually refer to her as Mary but rather as the Theotokos (God-birthgiver) or Panagia (All-Holy One)

[Papist]

1) yes

2) yes if we understand that she died first and then her body was assumed and resurrected

3) yes

We also do not usually refer to her as Mary but rather as the Theotokos (God-birthgiver) or Panagia (All-Holy One)

Thanks so much for your answers. I truely appreciate it.

[Harry]

Hi, I’m new in the forum.

1) yes

I disagree. As a human She also erred, although less than any other human being. Only God is sinless- in perfection.

[jmbejdl]

Hi, I’m new in the forum.I disagree. As a human She also erred, although less than any other human being. Only God is sinless- in perfection.

I'd suggest that your view is in the minority amongst Orthodox, though not unheard of. Even St. John Chrysostom believed that the Theotokos had sinned. However, I would certainly say that the Orthodox Church teaches that she was without sin, it's just that nobody's going to say you aren't Orthodox simply for disagreeing on that one point.

James

[Αριστοκλής]

Hi, I’m new in the forum.I disagree. As a human She also erred, although less than any other human being. Only God is sinless- in perfection.

Perhaps better stated that she could err, maybe did (we don't know), but made immaculate by her choice and His grace?

Welcome to the forum. Need more 'Bulgarians' here. 

[Anastasios]

While St John Chrysostom believed Mary was vain at one occasion, I think from our liturgical texts it is clear that when we call her spotless and all-holy, that that means something.

Mary could have sinned and was in need of a savior, but she was also deified by her participation in the life of the Trinity.  That's why God chose her--because out of all the women in history, she was the most pure, all holy, all blameless, spotless.

Anastasios

[falafel333]

If St Mary was sinless then how was she in need of a saviour and was she born sinless or did this occur some time later in her life? Just on a side note we also refer to the patriarch as all-holy however I doubt very much that there would be any consensus as to him being sinless...

[Anastasios]

If St Mary was sinless then how was she in need of a saviour and was she born sinless or did this occur some time later in her life? Just on a side note we also refer to the patriarch as all-holy however I doubt very much that there would be any consensus as to him being sinless...

We are all born personally sinless, but we still need a savior due to our fallen nature and world, which is why we baptize innocent children.  We are born into a fallen world and each one of us is renewed only through Christ who deifies us.  Even Adam was not born "perfect" even though he was sinless--you are born neutral and have to participate in deification to be saved.  Adam had done nothing wrong before he ate the fruit, but he had not attained deification either--he was neutral.  Likewise, Mary was born sinless like the rest of us, and instead of falling, she worked on deification (for instance entering the temple early) and was deified very early in life.  Christ was still the cause of her deification, which undoes the corruption of our nature that all of us have.

Anastasios

[FrChris]

Panagia needed a Savior, just as all of humanity needed a Savior, because she suffered the effects of the Original Sin.

Note I said effects...not that she shared in the guilt of the Original Sin.

It is this humanity that the Theotokos gave to the Logos---a humanity sharing in the effects of the Original Sin. The Incarnation of the God-Man then eventually makes possible our own participation in the life of the Trinity and hence our Salvation.

The Orthodox hold that she must have been of the same humanity as us (i.e., sharing in the effects of the Original Sin) so that all of us can be deified.If the Theotokos did not share in the effects of the Original Sin, then her humanity would have been different than ours, and so the 'enfleshment' of the Logos would have been different than what you or I or anyone else---and our Salvation would then be impossible.

(While I was typing this, Anastasios did a better job of explaining this, but I'm just adding my $.02 worth just for reiteration, I guess)

[Harry]

Panagia needed a Savior, just as all of humanity needed a Savior, because she suffered the effects of the Original Sin.

This means that at the beginning of Her life she also sinned unconsciously, doesn’t it?
Besides, can we say, that she was sinless afterwards- sinless just as Christ, our Lord, was, sinless in perfection? Can it be, that a human is perfect, just as God is?

[Anastasios]

This means that at the beginning of Her life she also sinned unconsciously, doesn’t it?
Besides, can we say, that she was sinless afterwards- sinless just as Christ, our Lord, was, sinless in perfection? Can it be, that a human is perfect, just as God is?

Panagia became perfect because she attained deification. Being perfect and being sinless are different qualities though. A baby or pre-fall Adam were sinless but not perfect. Adam had a step above a post-fall human but still only had the potential to perfection  Panagia was born neutral like all of us (although of course with death since she suffered the effects of Adam's sin).  She was sinless but this is because of Christ not because of her own fallen nature.  You could say she participated in the unconscious/unintended sin of all mankind though, sure.

Anastasios

[Papist]

If St Mary was sinless then how was she in need of a saviour and was she born sinless or did this occur some time later in her life? Just on a side note we also refer to the patriarch as all-holy however I doubt very much that there would be any consensus as to him being sinless...

Well, this is why Catholics believe she needed a savior, even though she was sinless:
From another thread:
Before I answer I am going to preface this with a disclaimer. I am not arguing with you! I am just answering your questions from my Catholic perspective.
First, we believe that Mary did need Christ's saving death on the Cross in order to recieve the singular gift of the immaculate conception. According to Ludwigg Ott, "Mary was also redeemed by the 'grace of Christ' but in a more perfect manner than other human beings. While these are freed from original sin present in their souls (redemptio reparativa), Mary the Mother fo the Redeemer, was preserved from contagion of original sin (redemptio praeservativa or prae-redemptio). According to the great Catholic theologian, Scotus, because God is outside of time, when Mary was conceived, he could look forward to Christ's death on the Cross, and because of the infinite merits of Christ's death, God could preserve Mary from contracting original sin. I have heard is explained like this: Christ's death saves us by pulling us out of the hole of original and personal sin, whereas Christ's death saved Mary by never allowing her to fall in the hole in the first place.

[Papist]

Panagia became perfect because she attained deification. Being perfect and being sinless are different qualities though. A baby or pre-fall Adam were sinless but not perfect. Adam had a step above a post-fall human but still only had the potential to perfection  Panagia was born neutral like all of us (although of course with death since she suffered the effects of Adam's sin).  She was sinless but this is because of Christ not because of her own fallen nature.  You could say she participated in the unconscious/unintended sin of all mankind though, sure.

Anastasios

I have heard that deification/theosis is an eternity long process since God's nature is infinte and it will take us forever to partake of it. That being the case, would all saints, including Mary still be in the process of deification in heaven? And a perfect Mary would be in the process of deification when she was on earth even though she was already perfect in the first place, because she, being finite would need eternity like the rest of us?

[choirfiend]

Ok, thats what we disagree with.


Am I the only one who gets frustrated over and over again with comparing the Orthodox and Catholic teachings on this because Catholics (excuse me dear poster, I'm not trying to argue or be offensive) don't seem to be able to see how their teaching is any different than ours? The Immaculate Conception is NOT what Orthodoxy teaches, even under another name or concept. We DONT believe God kept Mary from falling in the hole. We believe we're all born in the hole (though it's not our fault that we got there) and that Mary never did anything to dig herself deeper into the hole, but her entire life, she was looking up out of the hole and holding up her hand to be carried out, which Christ did when He died and rose again. Meanwhile, most of us like to dig deeper into the hole and resist God's hand when He presents it.

[Papist]

Ok, thats what we disagree with.


Am I the only one who gets frustrated over and over again with comparing the Orthodox and Catholic teachings on this because Catholics (excuse me dear poster, I'm not trying to argue or be offensive) don't seem to be able to see how their teaching is any different than ours? The Immaculate Conception is NOT what Orthodoxy teaches, even under another name or concept. We DONT believe God kept Mary from falling in the hole. We believe we're all born in the hole (though it's not our fault that we got there) and that Mary never did anything to dig herself deeper into the hole, but her entire life, she was looking up out of the hole and holding up her hand to be carried out, which Christ did when He died and rose again. Meanwhile, most of us like to dig deeper into the hole and resist God's hand when He presents it.

No need to get frustrated friend. i know that Eastern Orthodox Christians do not believe in the Immaculate conception nor in the Catholic concept of Original Sin. I was simply pointing out, in response to another poster, why Catholics believe that Mary was sinless but still needed a savior. I just felt like I could articulate the Catholic perspective because this is the Catholic-Orthodox conner of the OC.net forum. God bless.

[Papist]

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians view Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant?

[choirfiend]

Thanks Papist. At least then the differences between our faiths are not denegrated by not being able to appreciate them.

[Fr. David]

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians view Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant?

You better believe it.   

[FrChris]

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians view Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant?

Indeed! Some of our hymnology makes no sense if you are unaware that we hold the original Ark to be a typological reference to the Theotokos.

[francis-christopher]

In nomine Ieus I offer you all peace,

Upon reflection on this I can agree with St. Epiphanius of Cyprus:

"There is an equal harm in both these heresies, both when men demean the Virgin and when, on the contrary, they glorify Her beyond what is proper" - Panarion, Against the Collyridians

Ultimately I believe far too much speculation has been spent on this topic in the West, due in part to our beloved Pope Pius IX in his declaration of the Immaculate Conception in 1854 AD. My particular lending on this matter rest within the bosom of our venerable St. Catherine of Sienna, whom was a known critic of such an articulation. I believe it is wise to limit our speculation in the mysteries of our Faith but I also can appreciate our desires to see the divine realities more clearly through the lens of the Holy Spirit.

Although I firmly stand as a devout servant of the Western Church in communion with the Patriarch of Rome I hold the greatest sympathy for my Eastern Brothers concern toward the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

This is all that I will utter concerning this matter. This post may well have been better posted in the thread on the immaculate Conception. Pardon me please.

Pax

[Papist]

In nomine Ieus I offer you all peace,

Upon reflection on this I can agree with St. Epiphanius of Cyprus:

"There is an equal harm in both these heresies, both when men demean the Virgin and when, on the contrary, they glorify Her beyond what is proper" - Panarion, Against the Collyridians

Ultimately I believe far too much speculation has been spent on this topic in the West, due in part to our beloved Pope Pius IX in his declaration of the Immaculate Conception in 1854 AD. My particular lending on this matter rest within the bosom of our venerable St. Catherine of Sienna, whom was a known critic of such an articulation. I believe it is wise to limit our speculation in the mysteries of our Faith but I also can appreciate our desires to see the divine realities more clearly through the lens of the Holy Spirit.

Although I firmly stand as a devout servant of the Western Church in communion with the Patriarch of Rome I hold the greatest sympathy for my Eastern Brothers concern toward the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

This is all that I will utter concerning this matter. This post may well have been better posted in the thread on the immaculate Conception. Pardon me please.

Pax

Although I am more Thomistic than Monfrotian in my spirituality, I must remind you that the dignity of the LORD is never diminshed when we glorify His Holy Mother. Rather He is glorified through her because she is His handiwork.

[Theognosis]

If St Mary was sinless then how was she in need of a saviour and was she born sinless or did this occur some time later in her life?

Even if she did not commit any sin in her lifetime, Mary would still need someone to save her from the material and immaterial effects of Adam's sin, namely death and corruption of the flesh and spirit.  More importantly, without Jesus Christ, Mary could not have obtained perfection.  With the Blessed Mother becoming deified, we call her All-Holy.

This is in contrast to the Latin concept of original sin, which is JURIDICAL in nature.  It's basically a legal violation that ALL the descendants of Adam and Eve supposedly inherit, with the exception of The Virgin Mary.   Since The Ever-Virgin had NOT inherited the original sin, she was said to be sinless.  Add this formula to the Augustinian concept of atonement, and you have Mother Mary not needing any saviour at all (since she has violated nothing).

Of course, as an Orthodox, I reject this juridical concept.

[Papist]

Even if she did not commit any sin in her lifetime, Mary would still need someone to save her from the material and immaterial effects of Adam's sin, namely death and corruption of the flesh and spirit.  More importantly, without Jesus Christ, Mary could not have obtained perfection.  With the Blessed Mother becoming deified, we call her All-Holy.

This is in contrast to the Latin concept of original sin, which is JURIDICAL in nature.  It's basically a legal violation that ALL the descendants of Adam and Eve supposedly inherit, with the exception of The Virgin Mary.   Since The Ever-Virgin had NOT inherited the original sin, she was said to be sinless.  Add this formula to the Augustinian concept of atonement, and you have Mother Mary not needing any saviour at all (since she has violated nothing).

Of course, as an Orthodox, I reject this juridical concept.

You know, Robert Sungenis argues that it is the Protestanst who believe in a juridical concept of salvation (forensic justification) whereas Catholics believe in a more personal concept of salvation with regard to a relationship with God.

[admiralnick]

I had always been taught that Mary was sinless from the Point when the Announciation occurs and forward, but that she did commit sins prior to the Announciation. Because if she never sinned in her entire life (other than the effects of Original Sin) then she would also be called sinless, but there are numerous points in the hymns and prayers where Christ is referred to as "The ONLY sinless one". Clearly if the Virgin was sinless, Christ could not be called the ONLY sinless one.

-Nick

[Anastasios]

I had always been taught that Mary was sinless from the Point when the Announciation occurs and forward, but that she did commit sins prior to the Announciation. Because if she never sinned in her entire life (other than the effects of Original Sin) then she would also be called sinless, but there are numerous points in the hymns and prayers where Christ is referred to as "The ONLY sinless one". Clearly if the Virgin was sinless, Christ could not be called the ONLY sinless one.

-Nick

You have to take it in context.  Christ is the only Sinless One per se--i.e. the only one who did not even have the ability to sin.  Mary had the ability to sin but because of her unity with her Son and participation in deification, did not, but this is in a relational way, in a secondary way.

Anastasios

[dantxny]

You have to take it in context.  Christ is the only Sinless One per se--i.e. the only one who did not even have the ability to sin.  Mary had the ability to sin but because of her unity with her Son and participation in deification, did not, but this is in a relational way, in a secondary way.

Anastasios

That's a really good explination.  Thanks!

[Papist]

You have to take it in context.  Christ is the only Sinless One per se--i.e. the only one who did not even have the ability to sin.  Mary had the ability to sin but because of her unity with her Son and participation in deification, did not, but this is in a relational way, in a secondary way.

Anastasios

The Gloria in the Catholic liturgy, also states "You alone are Holy, You alone are Lord, You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ." Some have asked, "Does that mean that no one else is Holy?" Well that would be incorrect because we know that all the Saints in heaven are Holy. But we know that their Holiness is a derived holiness that they attained from God. But God alone is Holy in and of himself. That is what is meant when we say that the saints are holy, but we can also say, "You alone are Holy... Jesus Christ."

[Theognosis]

You know, Robert Sungenis argues that it is the Protestanst who believe in a juridical concept of salvation (forensic justification) whereas Catholics believe in a more personal concept of salvation with regard to a relationship with God.

The Protestants inherited that from their former Masters.  Makes no difference.  All of them are Augustinian.

[Papist]

The Protestants inherited that from their former Masters.  Makes no difference.  All of them are Augustinian.

Of cousre both Catholic and Protestants are Augustians. We both believe in the core necessity of Grace for salvation. However, Catholics do not believe in forensic justification. Rather, we believe that through Christ we become true children of God and are made truely Holy by the Holy of Holies. This has more to do with relationship, whereas protestants view God more as judge (which he is), our view of salvation focuses more on God as Father.

[Amdetsion]

Anastasios

I really appreciate your brief but very clear explanation.

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