OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 22, 2014, 03:54:33 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Do Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that Mary is...  (Read 4663 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,128


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« on: August 24, 2006, 12:20:10 PM »

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that Mary is
1) Sinless
2) Assumed body and soul into heaven
3) Queen of Heaven
?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2006, 12:33:59 PM »

1) yes

2) yes if we understand that she died first and then her body was assumed and resurrected

3) yes

We also do not usually refer to her as Mary but rather as the Theotokos (God-birthgiver) or Panagia (All-Holy One)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 12:34:31 PM by Anastasios » Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,128


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2006, 01:07:09 PM »

1) yes

2) yes if we understand that she died first and then her body was assumed and resurrected

3) yes

We also do not usually refer to her as Mary but rather as the Theotokos (God-birthgiver) or Panagia (All-Holy One)
Thanks so much for your answers. I truely appreciate it.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Harry
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Bulgaria
Posts: 3


« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2006, 04:55:10 AM »

Hi, I’m new in the forum.
Quote from: Anastasios
1) yes
I disagree. As a human She also erred, although less than any other human being. Only God is sinless- in perfection.
Logged
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2006, 04:59:23 AM »

Hi, I’m new in the forum.I disagree. As a human She also erred, although less than any other human being. Only God is sinless- in perfection.


I'd suggest that your view is in the minority amongst Orthodox, though not unheard of. Even St. John Chrysostom believed that the Theotokos had sinned. However, I would certainly say that the Orthodox Church teaches that she was without sin, it's just that nobody's going to say you aren't Orthodox simply for disagreeing on that one point.

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2006, 05:17:36 AM »

Hi, I’m new in the forum.I disagree. As a human She also erred, although less than any other human being. Only God is sinless- in perfection.

Perhaps better stated that she could err, maybe did (we don't know), but made immaculate by her choice and His grace?

Welcome to the forum. Need more 'Bulgarians' here.  Smiley
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2006, 08:01:38 AM »

While St John Chrysostom believed Mary was vain at one occasion, I think from our liturgical texts it is clear that when we call her spotless and all-holy, that that means something.

Mary could have sinned and was in need of a savior, but she was also deified by her participation in the life of the Trinity.  That's why God chose her--because out of all the women in history, she was the most pure, all holy, all blameless, spotless.

Anastasios
Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
falafel333
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 337


« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2006, 08:47:19 AM »

If St Mary was sinless then how was she in need of a saviour and was she born sinless or did this occur some time later in her life? Just on a side note we also refer to the patriarch as all-holy however I doubt very much that there would be any consensus as to him being sinless...
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2006, 08:57:37 AM »

If St Mary was sinless then how was she in need of a saviour and was she born sinless or did this occur some time later in her life? Just on a side note we also refer to the patriarch as all-holy however I doubt very much that there would be any consensus as to him being sinless...

We are all born personally sinless, but we still need a savior due to our fallen nature and world, which is why we baptize innocent children.  We are born into a fallen world and each one of us is renewed only through Christ who deifies us.  Even Adam was not born "perfect" even though he was sinless--you are born neutral and have to participate in deification to be saved.  Adam had done nothing wrong before he ate the fruit, but he had not attained deification either--he was neutral.  Likewise, Mary was born sinless like the rest of us, and instead of falling, she worked on deification (for instance entering the temple early) and was deified very early in life.  Christ was still the cause of her deification, which undoes the corruption of our nature that all of us have.

Anastasios
Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2006, 09:06:27 AM »

Panagia needed a Savior, just as all of humanity needed a Savior, because she suffered the effects of the Original Sin.

Note I said effects...not that she shared in the guilt of the Original Sin.

It is this humanity that the Theotokos gave to the Logos---a humanity sharing in the effects of the Original Sin. The Incarnation of the God-Man then eventually makes possible our own participation in the life of the Trinity and hence our Salvation.

The Orthodox hold that she must have been of the same humanity as us (i.e., sharing in the effects of the Original Sin) so that all of us can be deified.If the Theotokos did not share in the effects of the Original Sin, then her humanity would have been different than ours, and so the 'enfleshment' of the Logos would have been different than what you or I or anyone else---and our Salvation would then be impossible.

(While I was typing this, Anastasios did a better job of explaining this, but I'm just adding my $.02 worth just for reiteration, I guess)
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
Harry
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Bulgaria
Posts: 3


« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2006, 09:51:23 AM »

Quote from: chris
Panagia needed a Savior, just as all of humanity needed a Savior, because she suffered the effects of the Original Sin.

This means that at the beginning of Her life she also sinned unconsciously, doesn’t it?
Besides, can we say, that she was sinless afterwards- sinless just as Christ, our Lord, was, sinless in perfection? Can it be, that a human is perfect, just as God is?
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2006, 10:44:00 AM »


This means that at the beginning of Her life she also sinned unconsciously, doesn’t it?
Besides, can we say, that she was sinless afterwards- sinless just as Christ, our Lord, was, sinless in perfection? Can it be, that a human is perfect, just as God is?


Panagia became perfect because she attained deification. Being perfect and being sinless are different qualities though. A baby or pre-fall Adam were sinless but not perfect. Adam had a step above a post-fall human but still only had the potential to perfection  Panagia was born neutral like all of us (although of course with death since she suffered the effects of Adam's sin).  She was sinless but this is because of Christ not because of her own fallen nature.  You could say she participated in the unconscious/unintended sin of all mankind though, sure.

Anastasios
Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,128


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2006, 01:54:59 PM »

If St Mary was sinless then how was she in need of a saviour and was she born sinless or did this occur some time later in her life? Just on a side note we also refer to the patriarch as all-holy however I doubt very much that there would be any consensus as to him being sinless...
Well, this is why Catholics believe she needed a savior, even though she was sinless:
From another thread:
Before I answer I am going to preface this with a disclaimer. I am not arguing with you! I am just answering your questions from my Catholic perspective.
First, we believe that Mary did need Christ's saving death on the Cross in order to recieve the singular gift of the immaculate conception. According to Ludwigg Ott, "Mary was also redeemed by the 'grace of Christ' but in a more perfect manner than other human beings. While these are freed from original sin present in their souls (redemptio reparativa), Mary the Mother fo the Redeemer, was preserved from contagion of original sin (redemptio praeservativa or prae-redemptio). According to the great Catholic theologian, Scotus, because God is outside of time, when Mary was conceived, he could look forward to Christ's death on the Cross, and because of the infinite merits of Christ's death, God could preserve Mary from contracting original sin. I have heard is explained like this: Christ's death saves us by pulling us out of the hole of original and personal sin, whereas Christ's death saved Mary by never allowing her to fall in the hole in the first place.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 02:00:06 PM by Papist » Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,128


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2006, 01:58:28 PM »

Panagia became perfect because she attained deification. Being perfect and being sinless are different qualities though. A baby or pre-fall Adam were sinless but not perfect. Adam had a step above a post-fall human but still only had the potential to perfection  Panagia was born neutral like all of us (although of course with death since she suffered the effects of Adam's sin).  She was sinless but this is because of Christ not because of her own fallen nature.  You could say she participated in the unconscious/unintended sin of all mankind though, sure.

Anastasios
I have heard that deification/theosis is an eternity long process since God's nature is infinte and it will take us forever to partake of it. That being the case, would all saints, including Mary still be in the process of deification in heaven? And a perfect Mary would be in the process of deification when she was on earth even though she was already perfect in the first place, because she, being finite would need eternity like the rest of us?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
choirfiend
ManIsChristian=iRnotgrEek.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 903

Rachael weeping for her children, for they are not


« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2006, 02:02:29 PM »

Ok, thats what we disagree with.


Am I the only one who gets frustrated over and over again with comparing the Orthodox and Catholic teachings on this because Catholics (excuse me dear poster, I'm not trying to argue or be offensive) don't seem to be able to see how their teaching is any different than ours? The Immaculate Conception is NOT what Orthodoxy teaches, even under another name or concept. We DONT believe God kept Mary from falling in the hole. We believe we're all born in the hole (though it's not our fault that we got there) and that Mary never did anything to dig herself deeper into the hole, but her entire life, she was looking up out of the hole and holding up her hand to be carried out, which Christ did when He died and rose again. Meanwhile, most of us like to dig deeper into the hole and resist God's hand when He presents it.
Logged

Qui cantat, bis orat
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,128


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2006, 02:10:04 PM »

Ok, thats what we disagree with.


Am I the only one who gets frustrated over and over again with comparing the Orthodox and Catholic teachings on this because Catholics (excuse me dear poster, I'm not trying to argue or be offensive) don't seem to be able to see how their teaching is any different than ours? The Immaculate Conception is NOT what Orthodoxy teaches, even under another name or concept. We DONT believe God kept Mary from falling in the hole. We believe we're all born in the hole (though it's not our fault that we got there) and that Mary never did anything to dig herself deeper into the hole, but her entire life, she was looking up out of the hole and holding up her hand to be carried out, which Christ did when He died and rose again. Meanwhile, most of us like to dig deeper into the hole and resist God's hand when He presents it.
No need to get frustrated friend. i know that Eastern Orthodox Christians do not believe in the Immaculate conception nor in the Catholic concept of Original Sin. I was simply pointing out, in response to another poster, why Catholics believe that Mary was sinless but still needed a savior. I just felt like I could articulate the Catholic perspective because this is the Catholic-Orthodox conner of the OC.net forum. God bless.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,128


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2006, 02:22:48 PM »

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians view Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
choirfiend
ManIsChristian=iRnotgrEek.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 903

Rachael weeping for her children, for they are not


« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2006, 02:40:08 PM »

Thanks Papist. At least then the differences between our faiths are not denegrated by not being able to appreciate them.
Logged

Qui cantat, bis orat
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2006, 03:20:01 PM »

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians view Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant?

You better believe it.   Wink
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2006, 06:04:56 PM »

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians view Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant?

Indeed! Some of our hymnology makes no sense if you are unaware that we hold the original Ark to be a typological reference to the Theotokos.
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
francis-christopher
Banned
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Richmond
Posts: 366


St. Francis pray for us!


« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2006, 06:18:29 PM »

In nomine Ieus I offer you all peace,

Upon reflection on this I can agree with St. Epiphanius of Cyprus:

"There is an equal harm in both these heresies, both when men demean the Virgin and when, on the contrary, they glorify Her beyond what is proper" - Panarion, Against the Collyridians

Ultimately I believe far too much speculation has been spent on this topic in the West, due in part to our beloved Pope Pius IX in his declaration of the Immaculate Conception in 1854 AD. My particular lending on this matter rest within the bosom of our venerable St. Catherine of Sienna, whom was a known critic of such an articulation. I believe it is wise to limit our speculation in the mysteries of our Faith but I also can appreciate our desires to see the divine realities more clearly through the lens of the Holy Spirit.

Although I firmly stand as a devout servant of the Western Church in communion with the Patriarch of Rome I hold the greatest sympathy for my Eastern Brothers concern toward the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

This is all that I will utter concerning this matter. This post may well have been better posted in the thread on the immaculate Conception. Pardon me please.

Pax
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 06:24:55 PM by francis-christopher » Logged

Francisce-Christophorus

Sancte Francisce, athleta Christi, ora pro nobis. Amen.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,128


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2006, 08:41:56 PM »

In nomine Ieus I offer you all peace,

Upon reflection on this I can agree with St. Epiphanius of Cyprus:

"There is an equal harm in both these heresies, both when men demean the Virgin and when, on the contrary, they glorify Her beyond what is proper" - Panarion, Against the Collyridians

Ultimately I believe far too much speculation has been spent on this topic in the West, due in part to our beloved Pope Pius IX in his declaration of the Immaculate Conception in 1854 AD. My particular lending on this matter rest within the bosom of our venerable St. Catherine of Sienna, whom was a known critic of such an articulation. I believe it is wise to limit our speculation in the mysteries of our Faith but I also can appreciate our desires to see the divine realities more clearly through the lens of the Holy Spirit.

Although I firmly stand as a devout servant of the Western Church in communion with the Patriarch of Rome I hold the greatest sympathy for my Eastern Brothers concern toward the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

This is all that I will utter concerning this matter. This post may well have been better posted in the thread on the immaculate Conception. Pardon me please.

Pax
Although I am more Thomistic than Monfrotian in my spirituality, I must remind you that the dignity of the LORD is never diminshed when we glorify His Holy Mother. Rather He is glorified through her because she is His handiwork.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Theognosis
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 248


« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2006, 10:33:39 AM »

If St Mary was sinless then how was she in need of a saviour and was she born sinless or did this occur some time later in her life?

Even if she did not commit any sin in her lifetime, Mary would still need someone to save her from the material and immaterial effects of Adam's sin, namely death and corruption of the flesh and spirit.  More importantly, without Jesus Christ, Mary could not have obtained perfection.  With the Blessed Mother becoming deified, we call her All-Holy.

This is in contrast to the Latin concept of original sin, which is JURIDICAL in nature.  It's basically a legal violation that ALL the descendants of Adam and Eve supposedly inherit, with the exception of The Virgin Mary.   Since The Ever-Virgin had NOT inherited the original sin, she was said to be sinless.  Add this formula to the Augustinian concept of atonement, and you have Mother Mary not needing any saviour at all (since she has violated nothing).

Of course, as an Orthodox, I reject this juridical concept.

Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,128


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2006, 02:52:43 PM »

Even if she did not commit any sin in her lifetime, Mary would still need someone to save her from the material and immaterial effects of Adam's sin, namely death and corruption of the flesh and spirit.  More importantly, without Jesus Christ, Mary could not have obtained perfection.  With the Blessed Mother becoming deified, we call her All-Holy.

This is in contrast to the Latin concept of original sin, which is JURIDICAL in nature.  It's basically a legal violation that ALL the descendants of Adam and Eve supposedly inherit, with the exception of The Virgin Mary.   Since The Ever-Virgin had NOT inherited the original sin, she was said to be sinless.  Add this formula to the Augustinian concept of atonement, and you have Mother Mary not needing any saviour at all (since she has violated nothing).

Of course, as an Orthodox, I reject this juridical concept.


You know, Robert Sungenis argues that it is the Protestanst who believe in a juridical concept of salvation (forensic justification) whereas Catholics believe in a more personal concept of salvation with regard to a relationship with God.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
admiralnick
Cardinal, Editor for Photogalleries
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,880


« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2006, 03:51:11 PM »

I had always been taught that Mary was sinless from the Point when the Announciation occurs and forward, but that she did commit sins prior to the Announciation. Because if she never sinned in her entire life (other than the effects of Original Sin) then she would also be called sinless, but there are numerous points in the hymns and prayers where Christ is referred to as "The ONLY sinless one". Clearly if the Virgin was sinless, Christ could not be called the ONLY sinless one.

-Nick
Logged

The ORIGINAL: "NULL"
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2006, 04:04:07 PM »

I had always been taught that Mary was sinless from the Point when the Announciation occurs and forward, but that she did commit sins prior to the Announciation. Because if she never sinned in her entire life (other than the effects of Original Sin) then she would also be called sinless, but there are numerous points in the hymns and prayers where Christ is referred to as "The ONLY sinless one". Clearly if the Virgin was sinless, Christ could not be called the ONLY sinless one.

-Nick

You have to take it in context.  Christ is the only Sinless One per se--i.e. the only one who did not even have the ability to sin.  Mary had the ability to sin but because of her unity with her Son and participation in deification, did not, but this is in a relational way, in a secondary way.

Anastasios
Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
dantxny
OC.net Mineshaft gap
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian
Posts: 769



« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2006, 04:52:44 PM »

You have to take it in context.  Christ is the only Sinless One per se--i.e. the only one who did not even have the ability to sin.  Mary had the ability to sin but because of her unity with her Son and participation in deification, did not, but this is in a relational way, in a secondary way.

Anastasios

That's a really good explination.  Thanks! Smiley
Logged

"If you give the average Frenchman a choice between a reforming president who would plug the country's huge deficit and a good cheese, he would probably opt for the cheese." - Stephen Clarke
I think the French may be on to something here.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,128


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2006, 01:38:24 PM »

You have to take it in context.  Christ is the only Sinless One per se--i.e. the only one who did not even have the ability to sin.  Mary had the ability to sin but because of her unity with her Son and participation in deification, did not, but this is in a relational way, in a secondary way.

Anastasios
The Gloria in the Catholic liturgy, also states "You alone are Holy, You alone are Lord, You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ." Some have asked, "Does that mean that no one else is Holy?" Well that would be incorrect because we know that all the Saints in heaven are Holy. But we know that their Holiness is a derived holiness that they attained from God. But God alone is Holy in and of himself. That is what is meant when we say that the saints are holy, but we can also say, "You alone are Holy... Jesus Christ."
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Theognosis
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 248


« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2006, 04:26:21 PM »

You know, Robert Sungenis argues that it is the Protestanst who believe in a juridical concept of salvation (forensic justification) whereas Catholics believe in a more personal concept of salvation with regard to a relationship with God.

The Protestants inherited that from their former Masters.  Makes no difference.  All of them are Augustinian.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,128


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2006, 05:00:18 PM »

The Protestants inherited that from their former Masters.  Makes no difference.  All of them are Augustinian.

Of cousre both Catholic and Protestants are Augustians. We both believe in the core necessity of Grace for salvation. However, Catholics do not believe in forensic justification. Rather, we believe that through Christ we become true children of God and are made truely Holy by the Holy of Holies. This has more to do with relationship, whereas protestants view God more as judge (which he is), our view of salvation focuses more on God as Father.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Amdetsion
Worship God with all thy strength and all thy might
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Patriarchate; Addis Abebe Ethiopia
Posts: 931


HH Abuna Pawlos - Patriarch of Ethiopia


« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2006, 04:21:59 PM »

Anastasios

I really appreciate your brief but very clear explanation.
Logged

"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.106 seconds with 58 queries.