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Author Topic: Fr. Matta and the Eucharist  (Read 11860 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2006, 05:54:04 PM »

Contraception endorsed by the Coptic orthodox Church is different than the one Matta has advocated and supported, which is sterilization of men by force, no free will. It was in line with the government position during Saddat's regime in the 70's, and it is not a surprise that Matta would support anything Saddat wants.  I will have to look up the reference that Anastasios provided and the original quotes by Matta, for I have been searching for this quote for some time now to prove the inconsistency of Matta's view regarding society and its relation to his heretical and deficient theology.

Thanks Anastasios.

Quote
why you talk in bad way like kid getting angry

And this kid has humilated you to an extent that your opinions have been exposed as ridiculus. WHat you intended as an insult only speaks volumes about your inability to bring any meaningful counter argument. As such is clear, I do not care to engage into a discussion with you for your impotence when it comes to discussions is very frustrating.

Quote
By the way , most of the Copts love Fr. Matta .... in my Church ( by the way it is very very famous and Big Coptic ORthodox Cathedral in Egypt ) all the priests and deacons read and love his books

What is the name of this big big big cathedral in Egypt ? I do not doubt that it might be the case, how else would you get so messed up unless you were under the influence of other heretics ?

Why don't you let somebody answer for you the charges of heresy against Matta the heretic ? As you are totally incapable of answering and evade the answer at all time, get somebody bigger I can talk to and maybe they can help explain Matta's heresies and treason.

Quote
As u talked about St. Makkar monastery i talked about Anba Bishoy ... you didn't answer me also , how someone can defend the heresies while his family fallen in it

 Cheesy .
You are funny, kid. Can you quote Anba Bishoy on a heresy or on supporting your allegations by defending Islam, for example ? Can you even produce a document to verify the info you brought forth ?

It is a shame that Matta the heretic should get more respect than a confessor of faith like Anba Bishoy on OO forums, but this is the true hour of darkness.

Quote
Why the Pope Kyrols didn't excommunicate him , why
He did, for nine long years in which Matta the heretic was not allowed anywhere in an orthodox church, because he was anathema. Nine years, kiddo.

And he actually falls under all kind of anathemas produced in Nicea and Ephesus for his Arianism and Nestorianism, as well as under anathema pronounced by the Church Fathers pertaining to heretics and schimatics. The Church does not pick the Hindu religion and anathemize it, for example, just for the sake of it, but any Hindu heretic is under anathema by the logical extension of their teachings. 

If that is your only argument, exposing your inability to even defend Matta's obvious heresies, then you made my point clearly about Matta's followers.

Keeo the good work.  Grin

 
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« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2006, 06:26:42 PM »

EKA

Quote
The Coptic Church endorses contraception.

I'm curious, why did your Church change it's position on contraception, and still remain so strict when it comes to divorce? Does it have to do with divorce being directly spoken of by Jesus?
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« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2006, 06:37:26 PM »

please be nice more than that ... i can't go in debate with you about his books while everyone see it in very diffrent way . we will gain nothing


 There is no Anathema against Fr. Matta , give me a refrence for it or don't say that again !!!!
i want direct anathema . may be there was a punishment from the Pope but where is the anathema Huh LOL

most of the copts don't like Anba bishoy for his acts with the priests and for his rough way ... no one love him

Did you read the introduction of " The Orthodox Prayer Life " which is written by the Greek Orthodox Metropolitan George Khedr - ÂÂ  ?? he wrote " it is the first time the Greeks ( Eastern Orthodox ) learn from a Coptic Book " ÂÂ
it means that Fr. Matta is the greatest Coptic theologian in this age and for a first time they learn from us in the modern age ... ofcourse that mean that Fr. Matta is very great .
+ also read what Anba Mikhail the oldest Metropolitan in the synod article about Fr. Matta in Watani newspaper

+ read what George Khedr wrote in el Nahar Lebanon newspaper about him

+ read what John Watson wrote about him

+ Fr . Matta is a spirtual father for millions in all over the world , among them Eastern Orthodox and Catholic ÂÂ

+ May be there is some of his acts made a controversy but that don't mean that he is a heretic

+ He is the greatest Coptic Writer in the modern age
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« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2006, 07:14:37 PM »

Just a reminder to Macarius and everyone else:

The title of this thread is "Fr. Matta and the Eucharist."ÂÂ  It is Fr. Matta's teachings about the Eucharist which are the subject here.ÂÂ  I haven't read the writings in question because they are in Arabic and I don't read in that language.ÂÂ  However, it seems he made comments to the effect that we eat and drink the divine nature when we partake of Communion.ÂÂ  If this is incorrect, then someone please correct me with a translation of the exact quote in question.

Macarius, I have asked whether you or others have read the book or books in question, and if so, whether you can defend the orthodoxy of that teaching.ÂÂ  If you haven't read it, you may want to do so and then come back to this thread and comment on it.ÂÂ  

Making a general statement that there is nothing wrong with Fr. Matta's teachings doesn't really contribute to the discussion, as it doesn't address the teaching which is the subject of this thread, much less specifically defend it.ÂÂ  Also, stating that his books are popular doesn't defend this teaching.ÂÂ  Remember how popular the heretic Arius was and how St. Athanasius was at times virtually alone in his opposition to him.

I'm not trying to be critical.ÂÂ  I just want to get this thread back on topic.
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« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2006, 12:08:58 PM »

i am sorry because i talked out of the to topic but that was due to others who fought Fr. Matta , i wish all the world know about this man , he is really a real saint , he didn't care to defend himself and prefered to be silent .
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« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2006, 01:07:40 PM »

I understand your not wanting to address Fr. Matta's teachings, but you need to realize that there is a very specific allegation about him which is the subject of this thread.  If you want to defend him in this particular thread, then you need to  address that allegation.  Thanks.
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« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2006, 05:43:57 PM »

I'm frankly confused by what I'm reading here.  The Holy Eucharist is Lord Jesus Christ--God the Son become man, Crucified, Descended, Risen , Ascended into Father.  ÃƒÆ’‚ He feeds us  with Himself, in all ways:in spirit, mind-heart (soul) -body.  The matter of bread and wine is Lord Jesus; He is inseparable from Father and Holy Spirit so the Mystery  is also the Presence of Father and Holy Spirit.  We are recieving the essence of God; we are eating and drinking God.
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« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2006, 05:47:22 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread here, but I just wanted to make one comment.

He is inseparable from Father and Holy Spirit so the Mystery  is also the Presence of Father and Holy Spirit. 

If we continue this logic, that would mean that at the Cross, the Father and Holy Spirit were also crucified with the Son, and that is not the case at all.  Or maybe I'm missing something, which could very well be the case.

Please pray for me.
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« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2006, 07:20:36 PM »

I'm frankly confused by what I'm reading here.  The Holy Eucharist is Lord Jesus Christ--God the Son become man, Crucified, Descended, Risen , Ascended into Father.   He feeds us  with Himself, in all ways:in spirit, mind-heart (soul) -body.  The matter of bread and wine is Lord Jesus; He is inseparable from Father and Holy Spirit so the Mystery  is also the Presence of Father and Holy Spirit.  We are recieving the essence of God; we are eating and drinking God.

In his ENERGIES not his ESSENCE.  The divine nature is unknowable, according to St Gregory Palamas.

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« Reply #54 on: August 15, 2006, 08:32:23 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread here, but I just wanted to make one comment.

If we continue this logic, that would mean that at the Cross, the Father and Holy Spirit were also crucified with the Son, and that is not the case at all.ÂÂ  Or maybe I'm missing something, which could very well be the case.

Please pray for me.

Jesus' Person, His "I" is God the Son; God the Son is inseparable from the Father and Holy Spirit.  Only the Son becomes man but the "I" of this man is God the Son, inseparable from Father and Holy Spirit.  The Mystery is Lord Jesus Christ; this bread and wine is HIM, inseparable from Father and Holy Spirit so the matter is Lord Jesus, His Person, His deified human nature (deified in the ascension to Father). In Lord Jesus ,Father and Holy Spirit are present (" Believe Me that I am in the Father  and the Father is in Me...-Lord Jesus in the Gospel of St. John the Beloved 14:11).

Have I made this clear or more cloudy ?
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« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2006, 08:38:06 AM »

Jesus' Person, His "I" is God the Son; God the Son is inseparable from the Father and Holy Spirit.  Only the Son becomes man but the "I" of this man is God the Son, inseparable from Father and Holy Spirit.  The Mystery is Lord Jesus Christ; this bread and wine is HIM, inseparable from Father and Holy Spirit so the matter is Lord Jesus, His Person, His deified human nature (deified in the ascension to Father). In Lord Jesus ,Father and Holy Spirit are present (" Believe Me that I am in the Father  and the Father is in Me...-Lord Jesus in the Gospel of St. John the Beloved 14:11).

Have I made this clear or more cloudy ?
Steve

The problem is, what do you mean by "In Lord Jesus ,Father and Holy Spirit are present"? Do you mean that in the Person (Hypostasis) of the Son, the Persons (Hypostases) of the Father and the Holy Spirit are present? Wouldn't this mean that Christ is not one Hypostasis but three Hypostases? And wouldn't it also mean that all Three Persons of the Holy Trinity were Crucified and Rose from the dead?
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« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2006, 01:10:31 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

The problem is, what do you mean by "In Lord Jesus ,Father and Holy Spirit are present"? Do you mean that in the Person (Hypostasis) of the Son, the Persons (Hypostases) of the Father and the Holy Spirit are present? Wouldn't this mean that Christ is not one Hypostasis but three Hypostases? And wouldn't it also mean that all Three Persons of the Holy Trinity were Crucified and Rose from the dead?

Very well put ozgeorge.  I couldn't have verbalized it better myself.

Please pray for me.
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« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2006, 03:45:02 PM »

The Father is present in the Son and the Father is present in the Holy Spirit. This is the doctrine of perichoresis. In modern times, theologians such as Zizioulas have tried to make perichoresis mean all the three interpenetrate the others but this is opposed by other Orthodox theologians like Fr John Behr.  God the Father is properly speaking God/YHWH/O Kyrios (with article).  The Son is his Word and the Spirit his Breath; they derive their being from Him, the Unbeginningless One.  Christ is referred to usually as only Kyrios although once or twice (depending on the manuscript) he is referred to as O Kyrios to show him as being one with the Father, but usually a distinction is made.

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« Reply #58 on: August 19, 2006, 04:57:53 PM »

Today ( 19 Aug 2006 ) El Ahram newspaper published Father Matta memoirs , it is really very intersting , Fr. Matta asked his disciples not to publish it during his life .ÂÂ  he talk about his relation with the Preisdent El Sadat , this part show alot and i hope all of you can read it ... Pray for us Fr. Matta

Also i ask all of you to read this small article about Fr. Matta . it is writen by By His Beatitude Metropolitan Mikhail Metropolitan of Assiut and Head of the Monastery of St. Macarius .  ( this article is enough to show who is Fr. Matta , it is by the oldest Metropolitan in the Coptic Orthodox Church )
http://www.wataninet.com/article_en.asp?articleid=7948


also this article about his life
http://www.wataninet.com/article_en.asp?articleid=7884



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« Reply #59 on: August 19, 2006, 06:30:00 PM »

The problem is, what do you mean by "In Lord Jesus ,Father and Holy Spirit are present"? Do you mean that in the Person (Hypostasis) of the Son, the Persons (Hypostases) of the Father and the Holy Spirit are present? Wouldn't this mean that Christ is not one Hypostasis but three Hypostases? And wouldn't it also mean that all Three Persons of the Holy Trinity were Crucified and Rose from the dead?


The Father and  Son and Spirit are present in each other; there is only One God, not 3 Gods.  God is 3 distinct co-eternal,equal Persons.  When we are baptized, we are adopted into Lord Jesus, we are brought into union with Father-Jesus-Spirit; obviously that doesn't mean we are Father-Jesus-Spirit.


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« Reply #60 on: August 19, 2006, 08:05:21 PM »

The Father and  Son and Spirit are present in each other; there is only One God, not 3 Gods.  God is 3 distinct co-eternal,equal Persons.  When we are baptized, we are adopted into Lord Jesus, we are brought into union with Father-Jesus-Spirit; obviously that doesn't mean we are Father-Jesus-Spirit.

We are talking about the Real Presence in the Eucharist. Either It is a Real Presence, or It is not. And if it is, what is it the Real Presence of? Is it the Real Presence of the Prosopon and Hypostasis of the Son? Or is it the Real Presence of the Prosopa and Hypostases of all Three Persons of the Trinity?
What I am saying is that the perichoresis described by St. John Damascene does not mean that each Hypostasis of the Trinity contains the other Two Hypostases. As you yourself say, there is One Divine Essence in Three Hypostases (Persons). But since we cannot Commune of the Divine Essence, (only the Divine Energies), the only Hypostasis we receive in Holy Communion is the Hypostasis of the Son, Who although He is of One Divine Essence ("homoousios, consubstantial") with the Father and the Holy Spirit, we do not receive this Divine Essence.
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« Reply #61 on: August 21, 2006, 06:35:46 PM »

We are talking about the Real Presence in the Eucharist. Either It is a Real Presence, or It is not. And if it is, what is it the Real Presence of? Is it the Real Presence of the Prosopon and Hypostasis of the Son? Or is it the Real Presence of the Prosopa and Hypostases of all Three Persons of the Trinity?
What I am saying is that the perichoresis described by St. John Damascene does not mean that each Hypostasis of the Trinity contains the other Two Hypostases. As you yourself say, there is One Divine Essence in Three Hypostases (Persons). But since we cannot Commune of the Divine Essence, (only the
Divine Energies), the only Hypostasis we receive in Holy Communion
 is the Hypostasis of the Son, Who although He is of One Divine Essence ("homoousios, consubstantial") with the Father and the Holy Spirit, we do not receive this Divine Essence.
[/quote ]







The Mystery is Lord Jesus Christ; it is not just His presence, it is His Person, it is HIM.ÂÂ  Don't substitute theology for God.ÂÂ  Statements about God are indicators; they tell us where we may go and where we may not go; but they are not God.ÂÂ  Do you breakdown your relationship with anyone you love into these technical terms ?ÂÂ  Kind of cold.
We do recieve Him--in His whole Person, in His essence.ÂÂ  How do you divide Him from His essence ?ÂÂ  You don't. When it is said that we can'tÂÂ  know God in His essence that simply means we can't know God as He knows Himself; we would have to be God to do that.
What do you mean by prosopon and hypostasis ?ÂÂ  It sound like you mean 2 different realities by those terms.

You seem to be making a distinction between the essence of God and His 3 Persons. His Essence is His 3 Persons. In God 1 is 3, 3 is 1.ÂÂ  You have to hold the One and the Three in balance when you refer to Trinity (Tri-unos=3 in 1).ÂÂ  This is an antinomy; it is not rational. In rational thought one is not many (3).ÂÂ  In God and only in God, 1 is 3.
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« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2006, 06:41:01 PM »

We are talking about the Real Presence in the Eucharist. Either It is a Real Presence, or It is not. And if it is, what is it the Real Presence of? Is it the Real Presence of the Prosopon and Hypostasis of the Son? Or is it the Real Presence of the Prosopa and Hypostases of all Three Persons of the Trinity?
What I am saying is that the perichoresis described by St. John Damascene does not mean that each Hypostasis of the Trinity contains the other Two Hypostases. As you yourself say, there is One Divine Essence in Three Hypostases (Persons). But since we cannot Commune of the Divine Essence, (only the
Divine Energies), the only Hypostasis we receive in Holy Communion
 is the Hypostasis of the Son, Who although He is of One Divine Essence ("homoousios, consubstantial") with the Father and the Holy Spirit, we do not receive this Divine Essence.
[/quote ]














The Mystery is Lord Jesus Christ; it is not just His presence, it is His Person, it is HIM.ÂÂ  Don't substitute theology for God.ÂÂ  Statements about God are indicators; they tell us where we may go and where we may not go; but they are not God.ÂÂ  Do you breakdown your relationship with anyone you love into these technical terms ?ÂÂ  Kind of cold.
We do recieve Him--in His whole Person, in His essence.ÂÂ  How do you divide Him from His essence ?ÂÂ  You don't. When it is said that we can'tÂÂ  know God in His essence that simply means we can't know God as He knows Himself; we would have to be God to do that.
What do you mean by prosopon and hypostasis ?ÂÂ  It sound like you mean 2 different realities by those terms.

You seem to be making a distinction between the essence of God and His 3 Persons. His Essence is His 3 Persons. In God 1 is 3, 3 is 1.ÂÂ  You have to hold the One and the Three in balance when you refer to Trinity (Tri-unos=3 in 1).ÂÂ  This is an antinomy; it is not rational. In rational thought one is not many (3).ÂÂ  In God and only in God, 1 is 3.

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« Reply #63 on: August 21, 2006, 06:57:18 PM »

We do recieve Him--in His whole Person, in His essence. 
No we don't.
Again: we do not receive the Divine Essence, only the Divine Energies.
Is the St Gregory Palamas wrong and you are right? Here is what the Church sings to St. Gregory Palamas:
"O star of Orthodoxy! Support of the Church and its teacher!
O comeliness of ascetics, and incontestable champion!
Of those who speak in theology,
Gregory the Wonder-worker, the pride of Thessalonica and preacher of grace!
Implore thou constantly for the salvation of our souls."


So, what hymn does the Church honour you with who disagrees with St. Gregory Palamas?

How do you divide Him from His essence ? .....
Again you are not listening. The Divine Essence is distinct from the Divine Energies, and we know only the Divine Energies.

You seem to be making a distinction between the essence of God and His 3 Persons.
It may seem so to you, but then, you don't seem to listen to anyone. Even St. Gregory Palamas.
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« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2006, 08:14:11 PM »

No we don't.
Again: we do not receive the Divine Essence, only the Divine Energies.
Is the St Gregory Palamas wrong and you are right? Here is what the Church sings to St. Gregory Palamas:
"O star of Orthodoxy! Support of the Church and its teacher!
O comeliness of ascetics, and incontestable champion!
Of those who speak in theology,
Gregory the Wonder-worker, the pride of Thessalonica and preacher of grace!
Implore thou constantly for the salvation of our souls."


So, what hymn does the Church honour you with who disagrees with St. Gregory Palamas?
Again you are not listening. The Divine Essence is distinct from the Divine Energies, and we know only the Divine Energies.
It may seem so to you, but then, you don't seem to listen to anyone. Even St. Gregory Palamas.

I don't think you have read St. Gregory Palamas thoughtfully enough.  There is no distinction berween God's essence and His energies.  His Essence is Trinity unto Himself; His Energies are Trinity in relationship to us. 

There is no difference between Trinity and Essence.  Trinity is Essence; Essence is Trinity.  I is 3; 3 is 1.  We do not believe in the Essence, then in Trinity; God is not a Diad .  We do not believe in Essence, then in Father-Son-Spirit; God is not a Quaternity.

Lord Jesus Christ is God the Son (His Person= His Essence), become man, crucified, risen , ascended into Father , sending Holy Spirit into us.

Sadly, the Church has yet to compose a hymn in my honor; I hereby authorize you to do so when I have passed over.  I'm sure you will do me justice. (Laugh--it's good for the soul.)
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« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2006, 08:58:36 PM »

Essence does not equal Trinity. The hypostasis of the Father is the origin of the divine essence which he then images and spirates as Son and Spirit.

Person does not equal essence. Hypostasis is essence.

While essence and energies are united, they are not the same: one is unknowable, and one is knowable.  We can never see ourselves but we can see our reflection. Yet our reflection is not us, albeit it is us in a lesser way.

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« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2006, 07:01:00 AM »

There is no distinction berween God's essence and His energies.  His Essence is Trinity unto Himself; His Energies are Trinity in relationship to us. 

There is no difference between Trinity and Essence.  Trinity is Essence; Essence is Trinity.  I is 3; 3 is 1.  We do not believe in the Essence, then in Trinity; God is not a Diad .  We do not believe in Essence, then in Father-Son-Spirit; God is not a Quaternity.

Lord Jesus Christ is God the Son (His Person= His Essence), become man, crucified, risen , ascended into Father , sending Holy Spirit into us.
Shocked Errr....I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. Please read what Anastasios wrote above. I'm too dumbfounded to answer.

Sadly, the Church has yet to compose a hymn in my honor; I hereby authorize you to do so when I have passed over.  I'm sure you will do me justice. (Laugh--it's good for the soul.)
Why wait until you pass over?

TROPARION OF STEVEN DENNEHY (Tone 4)
Feast Day: The Sunday of Unorthodoxy (which falls exactly six months following the Sunday of Orthodoxy.)

"As avid confuser of Orthodoxy,
and both holder and proclaimer of error,
and as friend and supporter of Barlarm the Calabrian,
we beseech thee: hold thy peace o Steven
until thou hast some idea
of the Orthodox Faith."

 Wink

« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 07:13:15 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Steve Dennehy
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« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2006, 07:24:50 PM »

Shocked Errr....I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. Please read what Anastasios wrote above. I'm too dumbfounded to answer.
Why wait until you pass over?

TROPARION OF STEVEN DENNEHY (Tone 4)
Feast Day: The Sunday of Unorthodoxy (which falls exactly six months following the Sunday of Orthodoxy.)

"As avid confuser of Orthodoxy,
and both holder and proclaimer of error,
and as friend and supporter of Barlarm the Calabrian,
we beseech thee: hold thy peace o Steven
until thou hast some idea
of the Orthodox Faith."

 Wink

Ozgeorge you confused young man you,

Well that troparion was an effort though I was hoping for something a little more complimentary

Have you read St. Gregory Palamas or have you just read commentary on him ?

You never answer any of my questions.  If I am in error , explain my error.
And thats Stephen, not Steven.

Stephen the Orthodox 

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Steve Dennehy
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« Reply #68 on: August 23, 2006, 07:43:46 PM »

Essence does not equal Trinity. The hypostasis of the Father is the origin of the divine essence which he then images and spirates as Son and Spirit.

Person does not equal essence. Hypostasis is essence.

While essence and energies are united, they are not the same: one is unknowable, and one is knowable.  We can never see ourselves but we can see our reflection. Yet our reflection is not us, albeit it is us in a lesser way.

Anastasios

Anastatsios,

There are not 3 Gods.  You are coming very close to saying that.  It is not that the Father is God, then He has 2 demi-Gods. Trinity means tri-unos= 3 in 1.  I means 1.  You have Father, essence, Son and Holy Spirit.  That's 4; that's wrong.  God=Essence=Father-Son-Spirit.  God is ONE Who is THREE.

Hypostasis is Person.  One ousia  (substance/being) in 3 hypostasis = One Being/One God in 3 Hypostasis/Persons.

Yes, essence is God unto Himself; we cannot know God  (Trinity) as He  knows Himself.  Energies (aka grace/light) is God in relationship, in union with us.  There is a slight distinction but you have to be very careful that you don't separate Essence and energies , as if God's grace/light/energies is separate from God.

"Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, the Trinity, One in Essence and undivided."
Steve
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