Author Topic: Bowing Before Icons  (Read 272 times)

Gamliel and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline BryanS

  • No Longer Protestant; Almost Orthodox
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 27
    • The Visible Narrator
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA
Bowing Before Icons
« on: Yesterday at 11:38:59 AM »
I know. This topic has been done to death. Forgive me.

I'm getting ready to be chrismated in a month, and I'm still having trouble justifying bowing before icons in light of the second commandment—especially to my Protestant family.

I venerate the icons at church. I have icons in my home. I pray before them. It feels right, but I just can't justify this logically in light of the 2nd commandment. I've listened to hundreds of hours of Orthodox podcasts; I've read everything I can find online about this matter; I've even ordered tracts from Ancient Faith Publishing that talk about this, but it's still a sticking point for me.

Coming from a Protestant background, I have no qualms about spiritual images in general (nor, would I imagine do many Protestants nowadays). I also understand that veneration is giving honor to the one depicted (and ultimately to God), not to the wood and paint. I would imagine, though, that ancient idol worshipers felt the same way: They didn't believe the idol actually was their God, but a representation.

The second commandment states that the Israel (and, by extension, the Church?) is not to make images of things (clearly for use as idols, given the rest of the passage), and specifically that they are not to bow down to them—exactly what we do! How do I answer a Protestant family member who says, "You're bowing down to an image!"? Well. . . Yes. Yes, I am.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,515
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 11:55:48 AM »
We must understand the Old Testament through the lens of the Cross. Whereas in the Old Testament, no one could see God's face, in the New Testament God became man and the Lord Jesus Christ lives among us and is absolutely approachable with our senses. Just as His disciples saw him, so do we today in His icons. The Commandment still applies to idols, but the icons that we bow to are representations of the Son of God and of His saints-not idols by any means.

Offline Cyrillic

  • The Laughing Cavalier
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,996
  • Φέρ' ὕδωρ φέρ' οἶνον, ὦ παῖ!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 12:11:16 PM »
Greco-Roman pagans did believe that their statues were gods, or at least that the gods represented were really present in some sense in the statues. Greek and Roman satirists regularly mocked the fact that the statues of gold were much better guarded than those of clay, as if it didn't matter that the clay god got stolen.

Have you read St. John of Damascus' tracts on the issue?
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 12:13:14 PM by Cyrillic »
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline genesisone

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,702
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 12:54:47 PM »
A soldier will salute a superior officer; I will bow to my Queen (and other members of the Royal Family); Americans will place their hands on their hearts in front of their flag; generally one will stand at attention for a national anthem. These are all culturally determined ways of showing honour and respect. To bow before an icon is the customary way of the Orthodox to show honour and respect - and not to the icon as a piece of wood with a picture painted on it, but to the person depicted therein and ultimately to Christ to Whom the Saint is beckoning us.

You have a way of greeting others with whom you worship. Remember, we are joining the saints when we worship - whether privately or corporately - and this is how we greet them.

Offline BryanS

  • No Longer Protestant; Almost Orthodox
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 27
    • The Visible Narrator
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 02:54:42 PM »
We must understand the Old Testament through the lens of the Cross. Whereas in the Old Testament, no one could see God's face, in the New Testament God became man and the Lord Jesus Christ lives among us and is absolutely approachable with our senses. Just as His disciples saw him, so do we today in His icons. The Commandment still applies to idols, but the icons that we bow to are representations of the Son of God and of His saints-not idols by any means.

The Ten Commandments lie at the core of our civilization. To say that, essentially, one of them no longer applies as it used to is a tough pill to swallow.

Greco-Roman pagans did believe that their statues were gods, or at least that the gods represented were really present in some sense in the statues. Greek and Roman satirists regularly mocked the fact that the statues of gold were much better guarded than those of clay, as if it didn't matter that the clay god got stolen.

I stand corrected. However, don't we also believe that those represented in icons are present in some sense?

Quote
Have you read St. John of Damascus' tracts on the issue?

No. I will.

A soldier will salute a superior officer; I will bow to my Queen (and other members of the Royal Family); Americans will place their hands on their hearts in front of their flag; generally one will stand at attention for a national anthem. These are all culturally determined ways of showing honour and respect. To bow before an icon is the customary way of the Orthodox to show honour and respect - and not to the icon as a piece of wood with a picture painted on it, but to the person depicted therein and ultimately to Christ to Whom the Saint is beckoning us.

You have a way of greeting others with whom you worship. Remember, we are joining the saints when we worship - whether privately or corporately - and this is how we greet them.

Right, but that still doesn't address the fact that this customary way to greet the saints is, at least superficially, exactly the action prohibited by the 2nd Commandment. That's my stumbling block.

Online Sam G

  • Minister of Silly Walks
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 820
  • My walk has become rather sillier lately....
  • Faith: Orthodox Christianity
  • Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 03:05:09 PM »
I know. This topic has been done to death. Forgive me.

I'm getting ready to be chrismated in a month, and I'm still having trouble justifying bowing before icons in light of the second commandment—especially to my Protestant family.

Are you sure you should be getting Chrismated then? This isn't just a pet issue, your basically taking issue with the authority of the Ecumenical Councils here.

The second commandment states that the Israel (and, by extension, the Church?) is not to make images of things (clearly for use as idols, given the rest of the passage), and specifically that they are not to bow down to them—exactly what we do! How do I answer a Protestant family member who says, "You're bowing down to an image!"? Well. . . Yes. Yes, I am.

If your family has ever made an image of anything living, they've essential violated the second commandment.

Here are some links you may want to check out:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/icon_faq.aspx

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/icon_bowing.aspx
This user doesn't post here enough.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,515
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 03:27:11 PM »
We must understand the Old Testament through the lens of the Cross. Whereas in the Old Testament, no one could see God's face, in the New Testament God became man and the Lord Jesus Christ lives among us and is absolutely approachable with our senses. Just as His disciples saw him, so do we today in His icons. The Commandment still applies to idols, but the icons that we bow to are representations of the Son of God and of His saints-not idols by any means.

The Ten Commandments lie at the core of our civilization. To say that, essentially, one of them no longer applies as it used to is a tough pill to swallow.


Let's work our way step by step.

1. The following is a fair representation of what the Second Commandment means. "In a number of places the ancient texts assert that God has no shape or form[citation needed] and is utterly incomparable; thus no idol, image, idea, or anything in creation could ever capture God's essence.[32] The narrative in Deuteronomy 4[33] recounts that when the Israelites were visited by God at Mt. Sinai at the time the Ten Commandments were given, they saw no shape or form and this is stated as a reason why any physical representation of the divine is prohibited – no idols of humans, animals, or heavenly bodies were to be made. Rather than use an idol, God chose to reveal himself in words, by working through people, and by working in history." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_make_unto_thee_any_graven_image#Commandment

I submit to you that when the Son of God became incarnate, that is God and man, he cancelled the prohibition of any physical representation of the divine. When Moses could only glimpse God's backside while on Mount Sinai, every contemporary of Jesus could see the entire person of the Son of God or God.  Do you not see how the Second Commandment was affected?

2. Using the same source, we find that the word "idol" means: "The English word "idol" in translations of the Bible may represent any of several Hebrew words. In the commandment "You shall not make for yourselves an idol", the word is pesel, indicating something carved or hewn. In subsequent passages, pesel was applied to images of metal and wood, as well as those of stone. Other terms, such as nēsek and massēkâ, massēbâ, ōseb, and maskit also indicate a material or manner of manufacture.[13]

Some terms represent the consistently negative moral view with which idols are portrayed by the Bible.[14] For example, idols are referred to as "non-God,"[15] "things of naught,"[16] "vanity,"[17] "iniquity,"[18] "wind and confusion," [19] "the dead,"[20] "carcasses,"[21] and "a lie"[22] Other terms are deliberately contemptuous, such as elilim, "powerless ones", and gillulim, "pellets of dung".[23]"

Obviously, the icon of the Lord cannot possibly be portrayed this way. I would also say, neither the icons of His Mother, the Theotokos, or of His saints. BTW, do you know why we bow to each other--to venerate the Holy Spirit in each other. And, so it is with the saints whom we adore and venerate.

That said, we still are forbidden to worship any God rather than our Triune God. We cannot be Orthodox Christians if we treat the icons of the Theotokos and the saints as idols and worship them. However, we simply do not do so.  Never have and never will. We do worship Christ our Lord because He is God. Don't worry; the Second Commandment is safe and sound, and obeyed in the Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 03:28:48 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline BryanS

  • No Longer Protestant; Almost Orthodox
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 27
    • The Visible Narrator
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 03:57:19 PM »
I know. This topic has been done to death. Forgive me.

I'm getting ready to be chrismated in a month, and I'm still having trouble justifying bowing before icons in light of the second commandment—especially to my Protestant family.

Are you sure you should be getting Chrismated then? This isn't just a pet issue, your basically taking issue with the authority of the Ecumenical Councils here.

I wasn't aware that being an expert in apologetics was a requirement for Church membership. ;)
As I inarticulately tried to state from the beginning, I'm not taking issue with it, I'm having trouble with a rational justification that will hold water with others.

Quote
The second commandment states that the Israel (and, by extension, the Church?) is not to make images of things (clearly for use as idols, given the rest of the passage), and specifically that they are not to bow down to them—exactly what we do! How do I answer a Protestant family member who says, "You're bowing down to an image!"? Well. . . Yes. Yes, I am.

If your family has ever made an image of anything living, they've essential violated the second commandment.

Again, I was inartful in writing my original post. It's clear to me (and easily explained) that the commandment does not prohibit any and all images.

Quote

Here are some links you may want to check out:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/icon_faq.aspx

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/icon_bowing.aspx

Thank you. The second link is very helpful in making a distinction between different kinds of "bowing". I do remember reading this at some point, but it must not have stuck.

Let's work our way step by step.
. . .

It seems that step-by-step is really the only way to explain it. I guess I'm looking for a bumper-sticker-sized answer where none exists.

Offline Shamati

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 66
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 07:08:31 PM »
I know. This topic has been done to death. Forgive me.

I'm getting ready to be chrismated in a month, and I'm still having trouble justifying bowing before icons in light of the second commandment—especially to my Protestant family.

Are you sure you should be getting Chrismated then? This isn't just a pet issue, your basically taking issue with the authority of the Ecumenical Councils here.

I wasn't aware that being an expert in apologetics was a requirement for Church membership. ;)
As I inarticulately tried to state from the beginning, I'm not taking issue with it, I'm having trouble with a rational justification that will hold water with others.

Quote
The second commandment states that the Israel (and, by extension, the Church?) is not to make images of things (clearly for use as idols, given the rest of the passage), and specifically that they are not to bow down to them—exactly what we do! How do I answer a Protestant family member who says, "You're bowing down to an image!"? Well. . . Yes. Yes, I am.

If your family has ever made an image of anything living, they've essential violated the second commandment.

Again, I was inartful in writing my original post. It's clear to me (and easily explained) that the commandment does not prohibit any and all images.

Quote

Here are some links you may want to check out:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/icon_faq.aspx

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/icon_bowing.aspx

Thank you. The second link is very helpful in making a distinction between different kinds of "bowing". I do remember reading this at some point, but it must not have stuck.

Let's work our way step by step.
. . .

It seems that step-by-step is really the only way to explain it. I guess I'm looking for a bumper-sticker-sized answer where none exists.
the commandment is about not serving other gods. In Greek & roman philosophy here was a distinction between veneration & worship which is lost to Protestants. Worship is only to the Trinity. Icons are justifies because of the incarnation & iconoclasm may be an expression of subtle disbelief in the reality of the incarnation wherein God's Word took on human flesh. Therefore God can be depicted because his Son, which is the 2nd hypostasis of the Triune God, has been seen.

Besides, what is an Idol anyway? Whose to judge? If the commandment really means what Protestants believe it forbids any & all depictions of anything at all that is living. This could include books too, especially if you write in a language such as ancient Hieroglyphs whose characters are made up of representations of animals - this would be idolatry as well.

It really is no different to how Protestants venerate the Bible. In fact, their position towards the Scriptures are more idolatrous 'cuz many actually worship a representation of the Word of God such as the king James translation of the Bible. Iconography developed as a language meant to preach the gospel & the life of Christ & the life IN Christ to those who could not read other languages such as Greek or Latin. So when you see an icon of a saint, you are looking at his life in Christ & venerate the saint, not because of what he has accomplished, but because of what Christ has accomplished through the saint.

God isn't just over there, outside it all, competing with the saints for Glory. God is being itself, yet being does not contain God. So as long as you recognize why you venerate the saint; for his virtue & sanctity which has been given to him by the grace of God through his own submission & cooperation with that grace - I don't see a problem.

But you should ask a priest or theological expert to explain iconography or read St John Damascene's work on the subject.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 07:11:35 PM by Shamati »

Offline TheTrisagion

  • The cat is back and its better than ever!
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,600
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 08:09:42 PM »
We must understand the Old Testament through the lens of the Cross. Whereas in the Old Testament, no one could see God's face, in the New Testament God became man and the Lord Jesus Christ lives among us and is absolutely approachable with our senses. Just as His disciples saw him, so do we today in His icons. The Commandment still applies to idols, but the icons that we bow to are representations of the Son of God and of His saints-not idols by any means.

The Ten Commandments lie at the core of our civilization. To say that, essentially, one of them no longer applies as it used to is a tough pill to swallow.

It isn't that it doesn't apply, it is that it is understood more fully. Other commandments are treated similarly:
Quote
“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline scamandrius

  • Musicians don't dance
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,921
  • Why do I waste my time here?
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: DOWAMA of AANA
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 09:57:08 PM »
Why are you so concerned what your Protestant family thinks?  You think they are going to disown you because you bow before the icons?  You think they are going to say nasty things about you because you make the sign of the cross?  Well, they just may do this.  But you are converting, not they.  However, if you are still having hang-ups at this point in the process, perhaps more discernment is needed, though that is between you and your priest. You need to be upfront and honest about it.   But you will also grow in the faith and many things will become second nature even bowing before icons.
Hey, I don't hand out 9.5s to just anyone!  ;D

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,418
  • "I pledge allegiance to the flag..."
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 11:08:45 PM »
the commandment is about not serving other gods. In Greek & roman philosophy here was a distinction between veneration & worship which is lost to Protestants. Worship is only to the Trinity.

Quote
Δεῦτε προσκυνήσωμεν καὶ προσπέσωμεν Χριστῷ. Σῶσον ἡμᾶς Υἱὲ Θεοῦ, ὁ ἀναστὰς ἐκ νεκρῶν (ἢ ὁ ἐν Ἁγίοις θαυμαστός), ψάλλοντάς σοι· Ἀλληλούϊα.

Come, let us worship and fall down before Christ. Save us, O Son of God, who didst arise from the dead (or who art wondrous in the saints), save us who chant to thee: Alleluia.

Τὴν ἄχραντον εἰκόνα σου προσκυνοῦμεν ἀγαθέ, αἰτούμενοι συγχώρησιν τῶν πταισμάτων ἡμῶν, Χριστὲ ὁ Θεός· βουλήσει γὰρ ηὐδόκησας σαρκὶ ἀνελθεῖν ἐν τῷ σταυρῷ ἵνα ρύσῃ οὓς ἔπλασας ἐκ τῆς δουλείας τοῦ ἐχθροῦ. Ὅθεν εὐχαρίστως βοῶμέν σοι· χαρᾶς ἐπλήρωσας τὰ πάντα, ὁ Σωτὴρ ἡμῶν, παραγενόμενος εἰς τὸ σῶσαι τὸν κόσμον.

We worship Thine immaculate icon, O Good One, asking the forgiveness of our failings, O Christ our God; for of Thine own will wast Thou well-pleased to ascend the Cross in the flesh, that Thou mightest deliver from slavery to the enemy those whom Thou hadst fashioned. Wherefore, we cry to Thee thankfully: Thou didst fill all things with joy, O our Saviour, when Thou camest to save the world.

There is certainly a distinction between veneration and worship, but it's not exactly that "worship" is "only (due) to the Trinity", at least not in a way that would prevent the word "worship" from being used in other contexts for related ideas.   
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

New thread topic.  Rate the sexual attractiveness of members of OC.net on a scale of 1-10.

Mor Ephrem: 11/10

Online Justin Kissel

  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 32,496
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 11:11:10 PM »
Why are you so concerned what your Protestant family thinks?

Some people care about their family, getting along with them, helping them understand why they do what they do (especially when some find it offensive), helping them learn to not react in a knee-jerk way to certain practices like this, etc., but to consider whether it may be spiritually beneficial, and so on.

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,332
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 11:14:24 PM »
Why are you so concerned what your Protestant family thinks?

Some people care about their family, getting along with them, helping them understand why they do what they do (especially when some find it offensive), helping them learn to not react in a knee-jerk way to certain practices like this, etc., but to consider whether it may be spiritually beneficial, and so on.



Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,418
  • "I pledge allegiance to the flag..."
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 11:23:35 PM »
Greco-Roman pagans did believe that their statues were gods, or at least that the gods represented were really present in some sense in the statues. Greek and Roman satirists regularly mocked the fact that the statues of gold were much better guarded than those of clay, as if it didn't matter that the clay god got stolen.

I stand corrected. However, don't we also believe that those represented in icons are present in some sense?

We don't believe that the Lord, the Mother of God, or angels or saints somehow live inside the icon, possess the icon, incarnate as the icon, etc.  When I display an icon of Christ in my home, he is present because I honour and venerate the image and that honour and veneration pass on to him.  The relationship of love between us, of which the veneration of the icon is a manifestation, is a relationship in which Christ has taken the initiative by loving me enough to become man like me so that, among many other things, he might be described and depicted so that I can manifest my love in ways that are natural and make sense to me as a human being.  The icon is a sort of "place of grace", not an incarnation of the person depicted. 

Quote
A soldier will salute a superior officer; I will bow to my Queen (and other members of the Royal Family); Americans will place their hands on their hearts in front of their flag; generally one will stand at attention for a national anthem. These are all culturally determined ways of showing honour and respect. To bow before an icon is the customary way of the Orthodox to show honour and respect - and not to the icon as a piece of wood with a picture painted on it, but to the person depicted therein and ultimately to Christ to Whom the Saint is beckoning us.

You have a way of greeting others with whom you worship. Remember, we are joining the saints when we worship - whether privately or corporately - and this is how we greet them.

Right, but that still doesn't address the fact that this customary way to greet the saints is, at least superficially, exactly the action prohibited by the 2nd Commandment. That's my stumbling block.

What's the commandment? 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

New thread topic.  Rate the sexual attractiveness of members of OC.net on a scale of 1-10.

Mor Ephrem: 11/10

Online Sam G

  • Minister of Silly Walks
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 820
  • My walk has become rather sillier lately....
  • Faith: Orthodox Christianity
  • Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #15 on: Today at 12:49:22 AM »
I know. This topic has been done to death. Forgive me.

I'm getting ready to be chrismated in a month, and I'm still having trouble justifying bowing before icons in light of the second commandment—especially to my Protestant family.

Are you sure you should be getting Chrismated then? This isn't just a pet issue, your basically taking issue with the authority of the Ecumenical Councils here.

I wasn't aware that being an expert in apologetics was a requirement for Church membership. ;)
As I inarticulately tried to state from the beginning, I'm not taking issue with it, I'm having trouble with a rational justification that will hold water with others.

It's not. You wrote that you had a hard time justifying the veneration of icons. I took that to mean you're at odds with the practice. My mistake.

The second commandment states that the Israel (and, by extension, the Church?) is not to make images of things (clearly for use as idols, given the rest of the passage), and specifically that they are not to bow down to them—exactly what we do! How do I answer a Protestant family member who says, "You're bowing down to an image!"? Well. . . Yes. Yes, I am.

If your family has ever made an image of anything living, they've essentially violated the second commandment.

Again, I was inartful in writing my original post. It's clear to me (and easily explained) that the commandment does not prohibit any and all images.


Exodus 20:4
Quote
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth

I don't agree with this argument, but if you take the first part of the commandment literally it prohibits any likeness.
This user doesn't post here enough.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,584
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #16 on: Today at 12:56:07 AM »

Exodus 20:4

Quote
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth

I don't agree with this argument, but if you take the first part of the commandment literally it prohibits any likeness.

And yet God commanded the making of all sorts of images for the adornment of the Temple.  :)
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Online Sam G

  • Minister of Silly Walks
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 820
  • My walk has become rather sillier lately....
  • Faith: Orthodox Christianity
  • Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #17 on: Today at 01:01:39 AM »

Exodus 20:4

Quote
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth

I don't agree with this argument, but if you take the first part of the commandment literally it prohibits any likeness.

And yet God commanded the making of all sorts of images for the adornment of the Temple.  :)

Tertullian and Clement of Alexandria, who were both rigorists and rejected all images, had to bend over backwards to avoid coming to the conclusion that God had contradicted Himself. 
This user doesn't post here enough.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,584
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #18 on: Today at 01:10:32 AM »

Exodus 20:4

Quote
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth

I don't agree with this argument, but if you take the first part of the commandment literally it prohibits any likeness.

And yet God commanded the making of all sorts of images for the adornment of the Temple.  :)

Tertullian and Clement of Alexandria, who were both rigorists and rejected all images, had to bend over backwards to avoid coming to the conclusion that God had contradicted Himself.

Neither Tertullian nor Clement are saints of the Orthodox Church.  :)
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Online Sam G

  • Minister of Silly Walks
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 820
  • My walk has become rather sillier lately....
  • Faith: Orthodox Christianity
  • Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #19 on: Today at 01:12:03 AM »

Exodus 20:4

Quote
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth

I don't agree with this argument, but if you take the first part of the commandment literally it prohibits any likeness.

And yet God commanded the making of all sorts of images for the adornment of the Temple.  :)

Tertullian and Clement of Alexandria, who were both rigorists and rejected all images, had to bend over backwards to avoid coming to the conclusion that God had contradicted Himself.

Neither Tertullian nor Clement are saints of the Orthodox Church.  :)

My point exactly. Neither is Origen, who was also a rigorist.
This user doesn't post here enough.

Online WPM

  • Revolutionary Writer
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,168
Re: Bowing Before Icons
« Reply #20 on: Today at 01:18:52 AM »
While I would attend the Prayer Service I think bowing or kissing Icons might be considered Saint worship.
« Last Edit: Today at 01:20:49 AM by WPM »