Author Topic: Kallistos Ware  (Read 961 times)

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Offline Saxon

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Kallistos Ware
« on: December 19, 2016, 11:25:13 AM »
Attempting to further educated myself about Orthodoxy, I figured there's only so much I can garner from attending liturgy and pestering my priest with questions, so I purchased a copy of Bishop Kallistos Ware's The Orthodox Church, which I understand to be one of the definitive English-language texts on the history and beliefs of the Orthodox Church. I'm hoping that the fact that ware is an Anglo convert from a Protestant background like myself will make the perspective of the text more identifiable, which I've found to be the case when reading through some of Fr. Seraphim Rose's works.

However, I've read that Bishop Ware has been nicknamed Kallistos 'o Anglikanos (Kallistos the Anglican) by other Orthodox clergy owing to an alleged penchant for ecumenism and liberal theological approaches to issues like gender, sexuality, and so forth. Pandering to moderates on social issues, whether out of sincere belief or efforts to increase attendance by making the church a "big tent", is one of the reasons that I rejected Protestantism.

Can anyone clarify where Bishop Ware stands on such issues, and if there's a division between him (as probably the most prominent home-grown Anglophone Orthodox theologian today) and other Orthodox clergy? Is he a good source for a newcomer to Orthodoxy to look to for information on Orthodox theology?

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2016, 11:36:43 AM »
Is he a good source for a newcomer to Orthodoxy to look to for information on Orthodox theology?

Yes. In terms of accessibility, comprehensiveness, and overall accuracy his The Orthodox Church is the best introduction in English. Certain so-called traditionalists (I say "so-called" because they are really unwitting modernists) take issue with his support for ecumenism. Perhaps they would also have argued against Saint Mark of Ephesus even showing up at Florence. On issues like women's ordination he presents the variety of views as they actually exist in the Orthodox Church, and acknowledges that the reasons so far given against it have been inadequate (which is quite a different thing from coming out in favor of it). That of course is enough to put him on the bad side of knee-jerk reactionaries.

Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline William T

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2016, 12:25:59 PM »
As far as I know, The Orthodox Church by Bp. Ware is a standard and highly regarded text given out and recommended by most parishes.  Bp. Ware is also an authority who is in communion with the Orthodox Church and who, as far as I know, is  looked at as someone who is allowed and commissioned  to teach and talk to the masses.  There is no reason to hold him up to some Orthodox "purity test", especially if you aren't even Orthodox and are trying to study / convert to Orthodoxy.  Attacking Metropolitans who are commissioned to teach and lecture to a general audience on preconceived "checkpoint issues" is the wrong way to approach things from your angle. 

Even if  he wasn't "in good standing with the Church'; his book is still regarded highly and men like Origen, Tertulian, and Eusebius, who aren't exactly "in good standing" are indispensable when when studying Church teaching and doctrine in any depth. Most of the Church Fathers who are official saints and looked at highly for there teachings have flaws in what they believed in, so be careful with that approach.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 12:37:52 PM by William T »

Offline Georgios Scholarios

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2016, 12:51:14 PM »
Met. Ware isn't perfect (e.g., p. 3 of this document shows the changes on the topic of contraception across the three editions of The Orthodox Church). But neither was Fr. Seraphim Rose. Nobody is perfect, so I recommend reading a range of sources to find out about Orthodoxy.
The people who like to undermine Met. Ware are just bullies. As St. Gregory the Theologian says, the pretext is the faith "but the reality is faithless hate." I have thought nasty things about Orthodox who I've strongly disagreed with too (including Fr. Seraphim, sadly). Be on guard so you don't fall into this sin.

Offline Svartzorn

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2016, 12:57:36 PM »
I THINK I have read this book in portuguese a long time ago. A decent introduction, and his talks are very good (there are a lot of them on youtube).
But, yeah, he comes out as an ecumenist and a liberal. Still not a reason to dislike him.
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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2016, 01:02:01 PM »
Met. Ware isn't perfect (e.g., p. 3 of this document shows the changes on the topic of contraception across the three editions of The Orthodox Church).

In this Metropolitan Kallistos is really just representing a general change in the Orthodox Church at large, most notably the Church of Russia. It is indeed unfortunate that this change has gone by with so little debate or even acknowledgment of its significance, but it seems to me that this is a genie that isn't going back in the bottle.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Georgios Scholarios

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2016, 01:10:07 PM »
Met. Ware isn't perfect (e.g., p. 3 of this document shows the changes on the topic of contraception across the three editions of The Orthodox Church).

In this Metropolitan Kallistos is really just representing a general change in the Orthodox Church at large, most notably the Church of Russia. It is indeed unfortunate that this change has gone by with so little debate or even acknowledgment of its significance, but it seems to me that this is a genie that isn't going back in the bottle.

Good point. I thought that he hinted some personal support of the change in the book, but now that I go back and read it, he is just objectively describing the change in the Church.

Offline mike

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2016, 03:05:23 PM »
However, I've read that Bishop Ware has been nicknamed Kallistos 'o Anglikanos (Kallistos the Anglican) by other Orthodox clergy owing to an alleged penchant for ecumenism and liberal theological approaches the fact he sold more books and brought to  Orthodoxy more people than all of them combined.

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Offline Agabus

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2016, 04:02:23 PM »
Pandering to moderates on social issues, whether out of sincere belief or efforts to increase attendance by making the church a "big tent", is one of the reasons that I rejected Protestantism.

The book is fine, but Orthodoxy is a big tent, pandering or not.

Anyone who tells you differently is selling something.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 04:03:11 PM by Agabus »
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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2016, 12:28:15 AM »
I THINK I have read this book in portuguese a long time ago. A decent introduction, and his talks are very good (there are a lot of them on youtube).
But, yeah, he comes out as an ecumenist and a liberal. Still not a reason to dislike him.
I didn't  know there was a translation, did you read it online/downloaded?

I have it in English, I like the way he summarises complex things for the average reader.
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Offline Daniel2:47

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2016, 09:23:09 AM »
I like Met. Kallistos and he is definitely a fine individual for an introduction to the Orthodox church, but as others have said, I would recommend reading other authors too,as Met Kallistos would say himself: "there is strength in numbers".

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2016, 11:47:50 AM »
Met. Ware isn't perfect (e.g., p. 3 of this document shows the changes on the topic of contraception across the three editions of The Orthodox Church).
a general change in the Orthodox Church at large, most notably the Church of Russia. It is indeed unfortunate that this change has gone by with so little debate or even acknowledgment of its significance
given the nature of the "change," as it should be.
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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2016, 11:50:00 AM »
Met. Ware isn't perfect (e.g., p. 3 of this document shows the changes on the topic of contraception across the three editions of The Orthodox Church).
a general change in the Orthodox Church at large, most notably the Church of Russia. It is indeed unfortunate that this change has gone by with so little debate or even acknowledgment of its significance
given the nature of the "change," as it should be.

Why do you say that? And why the scare quotes?
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2016, 11:51:54 AM »
Yeah, I have read the 2nd edition of his book and it is ecumenistic, but it's in the back of the book. As for the third edition, some people say that it's a huge departure from the original I've read. But it's probably better than nothing... probably.
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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2016, 11:53:33 AM »
Pandering to moderates on social issues, whether out of sincere belief or efforts to increase attendance by making the church a "big tent", is one of the reasons that I rejected Protestantism.

The book is fine, but Orthodoxy is a big tent, pandering or not.

Anyone who tells you differently is selling something.

Indeed, but that big tent isn't trying to pervert and distort the teachings of the Church, as far as I can tell.
"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." (St. Manuel II Palaiologos)

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Offline Agabus

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2016, 11:57:17 AM »
Pandering to moderates on social issues, whether out of sincere belief or efforts to increase attendance by making the church a "big tent", is one of the reasons that I rejected Protestantism.

The book is fine, but Orthodoxy is a big tent, pandering or not.

Anyone who tells you differently is selling something.

Indeed, but that big tent isn't trying to pervert and distort the teachings of the Church, as far as I can tell.

Sure.

And Met. Kallistos falls well within the big tent.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2016, 12:16:51 PM »
IF you want to read Ware's The Orthodox Church, try to find one (if possible) from the first printing which was 1963 when he was still just a layman in the ROCA.  Subsequent editions have things changed, some of which pertain to things like ecumenism; Orthodoxy's relation with the papacy, the West in general and the Unia; women's ordination; his approaches to tradition, etc.

It is still worth reading, but be careful

Offline Alpo

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2016, 12:18:19 PM »
Met. Ware isn't perfect (e.g., p. 3 of this document shows the changes on the topic of contraception across the three editions of The Orthodox Church).

In this Metropolitan Kallistos is really just representing a general change in the Orthodox Church at large, most notably the Church of Russia. I

From what I've read the MP still teaches that contraception is sinful. How's that a chage?
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Leviticus 19:34

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2016, 12:20:11 PM »
The Church Fathers did theologize and philosophize Christ but there seems alot more to cover and work with.

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2016, 12:21:47 PM »
Met. Ware isn't perfect (e.g., p. 3 of this document shows the changes on the topic of contraception across the three editions of The Orthodox Church).

In this Metropolitan Kallistos is really just representing a general change in the Orthodox Church at large, most notably the Church of Russia. I

From what I've read the MP still teaches that contraception is sinful. How's that a chage?

What have you been reading? I'm going off of this.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Alpo

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2016, 12:39:28 PM »
Met. Ware isn't perfect (e.g., p. 3 of this document shows the changes on the topic of contraception across the three editions of The Orthodox Church).

In this Metropolitan Kallistos is really just representing a general change in the Orthodox Church at large, most notably the Church of Russia. I

From what I've read the MP still teaches that contraception is sinful. How's that a chage?

What have you been reading? I'm going off of this.

The very same document:

Quote
Christian spouses should remember that human reproduction is one of the principal purposes of the divinely established marital union. The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 12:39:54 PM by Alpo »
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2016, 01:02:46 PM »
What exactly constitutes "egoistic grounds" is quite open to interpretation. Would this apply to couples who want to have children but are spacing them for economic or other reasons? It seems to be the basic drift of the following paragraph that the use of (non-abortifacient) contraceptives is acceptable for spouses in such a situation.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Alpo

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2016, 01:40:42 PM »
What exactly constitutes "egoistic grounds" is quite open to interpretation. Would this apply to couples who want to have children but are spacing them for economic or other reasons? It seems to be the basic drift of the following paragraph that the use of (non-abortifacient) contraceptives is acceptable for spouses in such a situation.

One can find loopholes in everything. Ww live in 21st century with health care, social benefits etc. "Egoistic grounds" IMO covers most situations.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2016, 01:53:22 PM »
The MP was releasing this document in a country where contraception was an extremely common practice. Fr Vsevolod Chaplin, when he was still Chairman of the MP Synodal Department for Church and Society, made it pretty clear in 2010 that the ROC was okay with non-abortifacient contraception, provided there was not a "selfish refusal" to have children. As far as I know, no official in the MP contradicted his interpretation of the document.

The distinction  between abortifacient and non-abortifacient contraception is in itself quite a shift.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2016, 01:57:20 PM »
The Orthodox Way by Met. Kallistos was the first Orthodox book I read.  It was a big help and a challenge.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2016, 02:45:16 PM »
The MP was releasing this document in a country where contraception was an extremely common practice. Fr Vsevolod Chaplin, when he was still Chairman of the MP Synodal Department for Church and Society, made it pretty clear in 2010 that the ROC was okay with non-abortifacient contraception, provided there was not a "selfish refusal" to have children. As far as I know, no official in the MP contradicted his interpretation of the document.

The distinction  between abortifacient and non-abortifacient contraception is in itself quite a shift.

The former can never be accepted whereas the latter can be tolerated by economy. I don't see how this is such a dramatic shift
 
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2016, 03:01:31 PM »
Something which was once considered outright sinful, and sometimes even equated with abortion, is now allowable by economy. That's a very dramatic shift.

Likewise, where once it was considered sinful to engage in any intercourse without the intent to procreate, it is now allowed within marriage. That's a very dramatic shift.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2016, 03:06:06 PM »
Likewise, where once it was considered sinful to engage in any intercourse without the intent to procreate, it is now allowed within marriage. That's a very dramatic shift.

I know that this perspective was popular at times, but was it ever really universal?

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2016, 03:11:42 PM »
That's a fair question. The only Father I know about with a different idea was Chrysostom, who of course carries quite a lot of weight as a pastor of the church. But even he would not have considered contraception something allowable.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2016, 03:14:09 PM »
Also, if one regards human sexuality as something bestial, unseemly, unworthy, etc., and as a result of the Fall, it seems like married couples should be advised to avoid it when not absolutely necessary!
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2016, 03:18:12 PM »
That's a fair question. The only Father I know about with a different idea was Chrysostom, who of course carries quite a lot of weight as a pastor of the church. But even he would not have considered contraception something allowable.

I'm personally opposed to contraception, so I don't take issue with that. But I do tend to take issue with this view of sexuality as so narrowly defined. I think that especially the Song of Solomon has a favorable view of human sexuality, and I can't see it as being exclusively rooted in procreation, although that is certainly the core defining element of it. But the other notions of bonding, shared intimacy for its own sake, etc. seem very important to me.

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2016, 03:20:36 PM »
Also, if one regards human sexuality as something bestial, unseemly, unworthy, etc., and as a result of the Fall, it seems like married couples should be advised to avoid it when not absolutely necessary!

Sounds very Catholic, not Orthodox.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2016, 03:28:15 PM »
Something which was once considered outright sinful, and sometimes even equated with abortion, is now allowable by economy. That's a very dramatic shift.

Likewise, where once it was considered sinful to engage in any intercourse without the intent to procreate, it is now allowed within marriage. That's a very dramatic shift.


Divorce is outright sinful and still allowable by economy.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2016, 03:30:10 PM »
Also, if one regards human sexuality as something bestial, unseemly, unworthy, etc., and as a result of the Fall, it seems like married couples should be advised to avoid it when not absolutely necessary!

When is it ever "absolutely necessary"?
Mor has spoken through George... this is the faith of the fathers!

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2016, 03:32:24 PM »
Also, if one regards human sexuality as something bestial, unseemly, unworthy, etc., and as a result of the Fall, it seems like married couples should be advised to avoid it when not absolutely necessary!

When is it ever "absolutely necessary"?

To make more monks!
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2016, 03:39:21 PM »
Something which was once considered outright sinful, and sometimes even equated with abortion, is now allowable by economy. That's a very dramatic shift.

Likewise, where once it was considered sinful to engage in any intercourse without the intent to procreate, it is now allowed within marriage. That's a very dramatic shift.


Divorce is outright sinful and still allowable by economy.

The church does not give people a blanket authorization to divorce. It doesn't say, "It's okay to divorce your spouse with the proper counsel from your spiritual father". If a marriage breaks down, it is not by an allowance of the church. The economy here is the permission to remarry.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 03:47:34 PM by Iconodule »
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But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2016, 03:45:27 PM »
Also, if one regards human sexuality as something bestial, unseemly, unworthy, etc., and as a result of the Fall, it seems like married couples should be advised to avoid it when not absolutely necessary!

Sounds very Catholic, not Orthodox.

Which column do you put Saint Gregory Palamas in?

What is the starting point of our coming into the world? Is it not almost the same as for irrational animals? Actually it is worse, because the procreation of animals did not originate from sin, whereas in our case it was disobedience that brought in marriage. That is why we receive regeneration through holy baptism, which cuts away the veil which covers us from our conception. For although marriage, as a concession from God, is blameless, yet our nature still bears the tokens of blameworthy events. For that reason one of our holy theologians calls human procreation, "nocturnal, servile, and subject to passion", and before him David said, "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps. 51:5)
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2016, 04:16:42 PM »
Something which was once considered outright sinful, and sometimes even equated with abortion, is now allowable by economy. That's a very dramatic shift.

Likewise, where once it was considered sinful to engage in any intercourse without the intent to procreate, it is now allowed within marriage. That's a very dramatic shift.


Divorce is outright sinful and still allowable by economy.

The church does not give people a blanket authorization to divorce. It doesn't say, "It's okay to divorce your spouse with the proper counsel from your spiritual father".

Nor does it give blanket authorization  to contraception either.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2016, 04:27:11 PM »
Something which was once considered outright sinful, and sometimes even equated with abortion, is now allowable by economy. That's a very dramatic shift.

Likewise, where once it was considered sinful to engage in any intercourse without the intent to procreate, it is now allowed within marriage. That's a very dramatic shift.


Divorce is outright sinful and still allowable by economy.

The church does not give people a blanket authorization to divorce. It doesn't say, "It's okay to divorce your spouse with the proper counsel from your spiritual father".

Nor does it give blanket authorization  to contraception either.

Alright, not a blanket authorization. Nonetheless, contraception is okay within certain limits. The advice from the Church of Russia is essentially, "As long as it isn't abortifacient and you're not avoiding children altogether, contraception is fine in consultation with your spiritual father." We do not get permission from our spiritual father to commit future sins. If I ask my priest if it's okay to go shoplifting, he's not going to say, "Just do it in moderation, and don't take anything really expensive, and stick to the chain stores. And try buying things every now and then."
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2016, 04:33:32 PM »
Something which was once considered outright sinful, and sometimes even equated with abortion, is now allowable by economy. That's a very dramatic shift.

Likewise, where once it was considered sinful to engage in any intercourse without the intent to procreate, it is now allowed within marriage. That's a very dramatic shift.


Divorce is outright sinful and still allowable by economy.

The church does not give people a blanket authorization to divorce. It doesn't say, "It's okay to divorce your spouse with the proper counsel from your spiritual father".

Nor does it give blanket authorization  to contraception either.

Alright, not a blanket authorization. Nonetheless, contraception is okay within certain limits. The advice from the Church of Russia is essentially, "As long as it isn't abortifacient and you're not avoiding children altogether, contraception is fine in consultation with your spiritual father." We do not get permission from our spiritual father to commit future sins. If I ask my priest if it's okay to go shoplifting, he's not going to say, "Just do it in moderation, and don't take anything really expensive, and stick to the chain stores. And try buying things every now and then."

Quote of the month.

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2016, 04:35:11 PM »
Also, if one regards human sexuality as something bestial, unseemly, unworthy, etc., and as a result of the Fall, it seems like married couples should be advised to avoid it when not absolutely necessary!

When is it ever "absolutely necessary"?

To make more monks!

 :-*
Mor has spoken through George... this is the faith of the fathers!

The Church's bridegroom was never the Byzantine Empire.

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2016, 04:40:04 PM »
Something which was once considered outright sinful, and sometimes even equated with abortion, is now allowable by economy. That's a very dramatic shift.

Likewise, where once it was considered sinful to engage in any intercourse without the intent to procreate, it is now allowed within marriage. That's a very dramatic shift.


Divorce is outright sinful and still allowable by economy.

The church does not give people a blanket authorization to divorce. It doesn't say, "It's okay to divorce your spouse with the proper counsel from your spiritual father".

Nor does it give blanket authorization  to contraception either.

Alright, not a blanket authorization. Nonetheless, contraception is okay within certain limits. The advice from the Church of Russia is essentially, "As long as it isn't abortifacient and you're not avoiding children altogether, contraception is fine in consultation with your spiritual father."

I disagree. It's more like "You don't necessarily need to kill yourself with endless childbirths." We actually have a Protestant group around here who prohibit all kinds of birthcontrol in all situations always and everywhere. The result is not always too pretty.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2016, 04:42:51 PM »
Something which was once considered outright sinful, and sometimes even equated with abortion, is now allowable by economy. That's a very dramatic shift.

Likewise, where once it was considered sinful to engage in any intercourse without the intent to procreate, it is now allowed within marriage. That's a very dramatic shift.


Divorce is outright sinful and still allowable by economy.

The church does not give people a blanket authorization to divorce. It doesn't say, "It's okay to divorce your spouse with the proper counsel from your spiritual father".

Nor does it give blanket authorization  to contraception either.

Alright, not a blanket authorization. Nonetheless, contraception is okay within certain limits. The advice from the Church of Russia is essentially, "As long as it isn't abortifacient and you're not avoiding children altogether, contraception is fine in consultation with your spiritual father."

I disagree. It's more like "You don't necessarily need to kill yourself with endless childbirths."

Sure. This can be avoided, without sin, by the couple mutually agreeing to abstain when they're not ready for another child. Unless, of course, contraception is not a sin, in which case that's okay too. 
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2016, 11:46:43 PM »
"Just do it in moderation, and don't take anything really expensive, and stick to the chain stores. And try buying things every now and then."

Master, bless!
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 11:47:01 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

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Re: Kallistos Ware
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2017, 12:28:22 AM »
There are a few issues but Metropolitan Kallisos Ware's writing are used in our local Theological college - so yes he is a GREAT starting point, as to his beliefs :

1. Ordaining Women - The office of the Deaconess it is called and there is a formal structure for women to baptise and give out Communion
2. Ecumenism - there are many biblical quotes supporting it in theory, but he isnt like any Orthodox pro papal supremency
3. Birth Control - here in AU priests support only having as many Children as you can handle as a couple