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Author Topic: EP Must be Turkish?  (Read 2406 times) Average Rating: 0
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AncientFaith
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« on: August 12, 2006, 02:38:52 PM »

Someone else, on another list, mentioned that they understood the EP must be a Turkish citizen, which doesn't bode well for the future of the patriarchate, as Turkey has done such a fine job of suppressing Orthodoxy.

Is this the case?
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« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2006, 04:08:33 PM »

Yes, unfortunately it is. His All Holiness aways tries to change this outrageous requirement. One of the variants is to give a freedom in election of the Patriarch and then to grant Turkish citizenship to the winner, who could have any citizenship prior to the election.
Historically, in 1948 late Patriarch Athenagoras, one of the greatest Orthodox Hierarchs of XX century, was elected to the office of the Patriarch being an American citizen and then received Turkish Citizenship. After that, late Patriarch Dimitrios (died in 1991) and current Patriarch Bartholomew were elected from the list, which included only citizens of Turkey. Moreover, in 1972, after the death of Patriarch Athenagoras and prior to elections of his successor, the government officials excluded several very respected key candidates from the list, even while they all hold citizenship of Turkey.
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« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2006, 05:00:56 PM »

Yes, unfortunately it is. His All Holiness aways tries to change this outrageous requirement. One of the variants is to give a freedom in election of the Patriarch and then to grant Turkish citizenship to the winner, who could have any citizenship prior to the election.
Historically, in 1948 late Patriarch Athenagoras, one of the greatest Orthodox Hierarchs of XX century, was elected to the office of the Patriarch being an American citizen and then received Turkish Citizenship. After that, late Patriarch Dimitrios (died in 1991) and current Patriarch Bartholomew were elected from the list, which included only citizens of Turkey. Moreover, in 1972, after the death of Patriarch Athenagoras and prior to elections of his successor, the government officials excluded several very respected key candidates from the list, even while they all hold citizenship of Turkey.

 Angry

Boy, this frosts me.  I assume the Turkish government is under the illusion that its the Byzantine Empire.

Reminiscent of being Anglican again, with the muslims and pagans in parliament having to approve the ABp of Canterbury.
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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2006, 05:58:42 PM »

Athenagoras was elected because he was personal friends with President Truman who intervened, some say.

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« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2006, 11:41:58 AM »

Turkey tries to justify this by saying that the Patriarch is the leader of the Ecumenical Patriarchate defined by its historical borders (which now lie mainly in Turkey).  As the Patriarch is the leader of this group, then he should be selected from among themselves.

Turkey tries to deny that the Patriarch has any importance outside of Turkey, which is obviously a falasy.  However, we must all remember that the current situation of having all these Churches abroad under the Ecumenical Patriarchate is not in the spirit of the Orthodox Church as it sets up a sort of Papacy.  This is especially harming when there's several competing Papacies all claiming to be Eastern Orthodox (Constantinople, Antioch, Moscow, Serbia, &c) acting in one geographic location.

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« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2006, 08:40:48 PM »

While the way the Turks handle the requirement is outrageous, it isn't completely out-there; he is the Archbishop of Constantinople first, and thus represents that diocese.  It would be better if each diocese out there had a native son as their bishop IMHO.  This kind of requirement wouldn't have been such a problem before the modern Turkish state, since the Rum population flourished.  But alas, they're jerks about it, aren't they.
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« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2006, 11:10:22 PM »

It would be better if each diocese out there had a native son as their bishop IMHO. 

Which of course reveals the nonesensical situation of the JP as well.  I've never heard a reasonable arguement why the JP Synod should be all Greeks when their faithful are not.
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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2006, 07:45:55 AM »

Which of course reveals the nonesensical situation of the JP as well.  I've never heard a reasonable arguement why the JP Synod should be all Greeks when their faithful are not.

Hmmm, my synod's almost all Turkish, but I am not and have no complaints.
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« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2006, 07:52:55 AM »

Well, I don't think the synod is almost all turkish - remember, a few years ago they started to allow non-turks on the synod; so I think we've got one metro from the us, one from asia, one of the other bishops from the americas, one from eyrope, and two others, in addition to the 6 from the immediate area around the Patriarchate.
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« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2006, 08:05:08 AM »

Which of course reveals the nonesensical situation of the JP as well.  I've never heard a reasonable arguement why the JP Synod should be all Greeks when their faithful are not.

My only criteria is that my Bishop is Orthodox. And what I find disturbing about the Jerusalem situation is that some factions in the Church want to structure the Church based on something which the Church condemned in the Great and Holy Pan-Orthodox Synod of 1872 which declared:
"We renounce, censure and condemn racism, that is racial discrimination, ethnic feuds, hatreds and dissensions within the Church of Christ, as contrary to the teaching of the Gospel and the holy canons of our blessed fathers which “support the holy Church and the entire Christian world, embellish it and lead it to divine godliness.”"

"i'm not racist, but I do want my Bishop to be a particular race...." Give me a break!
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« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2006, 08:10:12 AM »

George, I can understand where Elisha's sentiments come from, though, even though I agree with you in principle.  Remember, there are many scandals over there with regards to the property of the Church; since most of the faithful over there identify themselves as Palestinian, they are persecuted by Israel based on their ethnicity, and yet it seems as if their church is giving sweetheart deals to the state that is doing the persecuting.
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« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2006, 08:32:53 AM »

George, I can understand where Elisha's sentiments come from, though, even though I agree with you in principle.  Remember, there are many scandals over there with regards to the property of the Church; since most of the faithful over there identify themselves as Palestinian, they are persecuted by Israel based on their ethnicity, and yet it seems as if their church is giving sweetheart deals to the state that is doing the persecuting.

Cleveland,
I am the first to say that Bishops who are proven to be unworthy stewards should be replaced, but what Elisha said has nothing to do with bad stewardship, it was solely a matter of race: "I've never heard a reasonable arguement why the JP Synod should be all Greeks when their faithful are not." Firstly, it's erroneous because there is in fact a large portion of the Faithful in Jerusalem who are Hellenic. Secondly, you are making an error which many seem to make in that "Palestinian" is not an ethnicity, any more than "American" is an ethnicity. Both are in fact "nationalities". Prior to the creation of Israel, the Jews living in Palestine were also called "Palestinians". It was the PLO in 1968 who decided that the definition of "Palestinian" should  refer only to Arabs living in Palestine prior to 1947 and their descendants through the male line. The equivalent would be "American" being defined as "Anglo-Saxons living in America". I for one am glad the Church in Jerusalem doesn't buy into this racist garbage which is nothing more than political maneouvering and historical revisionism.
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« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2006, 08:37:26 AM »

Good point on the ethnicity vs nationality point w/ regards to Palestinians.
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« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2006, 09:12:00 AM »

I think the concern in the Jerusalem situation is not so much that bishops must be ethnically Arabs, but rather the perception that the hierarchy there insists instead that they must be ethnically Greek (or at least that the vast majority of them should be).  That is, the accusation of racism is coming from the other direction, that Greeks are being privileged by virtue of being Greek.

There is a history in the Middle East of the hierarchy not permitting theological education or advanced ordination to Orthodox Arabs, which at least seems suspicious considering that so many of the faithful there are Arabs.  Certainly, the reaction against that is often unfortunately colored with nationalism, but it's also based on real difficulties.  I think that it's not appropriate, given the region's history, to paint the picture purely in nationalistic terms.

Let us pray that hierarchs and other clergy will be chosen based on their spiritual qualifications.
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« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2006, 09:23:58 AM »

I've heard others level the same charges (including Maria Khoury, who speaks frequenly about the plight of Palestinian Christians, and writes children's books).  It seems to be an unsavory situation, one which cannot continue.
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« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2006, 09:40:08 AM »

A concern is that a large backer of the Arab-bishop movement (Jerusalem Task Force, etc) is the Antiochian Patriarchate.  Some see this merely as an attempt to replace Greek influence with Antiochian influence.  While I want to see bishops selected based on their spiritual qualities and not in reference to race, I would not want to see the Synod of Jerusalem become a puppet of Antioch and adopt some of its more unsavory characteristics, such as the New Calendar, the theology of Met. George Khodr (of "The Quran is inspired by the Spirit" fame), etc.

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« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2006, 10:24:32 AM »

Interesting...  I had forgotten about Met. Khodr.  I still don't think the synod should go forward with such blatant discrimination.  Maybe they should just do a good job training and screening candidates.
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« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2006, 12:10:39 PM »

Yes, unfortunately it is. His All Holiness aways tries to change this outrageous requirement. One of the variants is to give a freedom in election of the Patriarch and then to grant Turkish citizenship to the winner, who could have any citizenship prior to the election.Historically, in 1948 late Patriarch Athenagoras, one of the greatest Orthodox Hierarchs of XX century, was elected to the office of the Patriarch being an American citizen and then received Turkish Citizenship. After that, late Patriarch Dimitrios (died in 1991) and current Patriarch Bartholomew were elected from the list, which included only citizens of Turkey. Moreover, in 1972, after the death of Patriarch Athenagoras and prior to elections of his successor, the government officials excluded several very respected key candidates from the list, even while they all hold citizenship of Turkey.

This is not true!  The elected EP MUST BE A NATURAL BORN TURISH CITIZEN!


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« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2006, 12:20:58 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9732.msg131485#msg131485 date=1155555955]
Hmmm, my synod's almost all Turkish, but I am not and have no complaints.
[/quote]

Red Herring (or is it Strawman?).  See cleveland's and asdamick's replies.  Does not the JP Synod actually get many of their Greek Hierarch's from OTHER Churches (e.g. Church of Greece and/or the EP)?
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« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2006, 02:23:56 PM »

Red Herring (or is it Strawman?).  See cleveland's and asdamick's replies.  Does not the JP Synod actually get many of their Greek Hierarch's from OTHER Churches (e.g. Church of Greece and/or the EP)?

So what? It's not your church. The Church is the Church. Talk about reverse phyletism...
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« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2006, 03:05:07 PM »

I don't think they get many if any from the EP anymore.  It used to be normal for the EP to provide hierarchs for Antioch, Alexandria, and Jersualem, but that was centuries ago.  Heck, the EP used to provide patriarchs for the other archdiocese mentioned.
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« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2006, 03:49:41 PM »

I would not want to see the Synod of Jerusalem become a puppet of Antioch and adopt some of its more unsavory characteristics, such as the New Calendar, the theology of Met. George Khodr (of "The Quran is inspired by the Spirit" fame), etc.

Would someone please enlighten me more about this Metropolitan?  Being of the Antiochian Archdiocese in America, I probably should know.

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« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2006, 02:00:20 PM »

This is not true!ÂÂ  The elected EP MUST BE A NATURAL BORN TURISH CITIZEN!


Orthodoc

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With all the respect, you misunderstood. Yes, according to the current regulations, created by a discriminatory decision of the Government of Turkey, the list of candidates for the office of the EP includes only citizens of Turkey.
What I mean and what I expressed, His All Holiness aways tries to change this outrageous requirement. Therefore, one of the variants for the solution in order to give the Church rights, is to give a freedom in election of the Patriarch and then to grant Turkish citizenship to the winner, who could have any citizenship prior to the election. That has been mentioned in the proposals of the Patriarchate, but the government did not agree on that.
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