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Author Topic: I got a warning on a catholic forum re: Fatima is bunk  (Read 1469 times) Average Rating: 0
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Dismus
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« on: August 15, 2006, 01:55:54 PM »

Just a rant.
Not expecting anyone will be able to say much about it. I was respectful, but I said that I think it is laughable and embarrassing. I suggested we should get rid of the whole thing and pretend it never happened at all.

You would have thought I was Osama. So, I explained that why not get rid of it since you don't have to believe it anyway, and it raises too many red flags anyway.

Once again, I was accused of Hating Saints!

So, I kinda let it roll off my back but then I go on (stupidly) and say that Maybe we need to rethink all the Saints that got fast tracking and how many there are in sheer numbers.

I got suspended. Embarrassed

So, I am not mad or anything but they did not give a reason for it, and I was not rude.

Geepers.

Just venting. Has anyone here been suspended on a forum?
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« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2006, 10:32:29 PM »

Just a rant.
Not expecting anyone will be able to say much about it. I was respectful, but I said that I think it is laughable and embarrassing. I suggested we should get rid of the whole thing and pretend it never happened at all.

You would have thought I was Osama. So, I explained that why not get rid of it since you don't have to believe it anyway, and it raises too many red flags anyway.

Once again, I was accused of Hating Saints!

So, I kinda let it roll off my back but then I go on (stupidly) and say that Maybe we need to rethink all the Saints that got fast tracking and how many there are in sheer numbers.

I got suspended. Embarrassed

So, I am not mad or anything but they did not give a reason for it, and I was not rude.

Geepers.

Just venting. Has anyone here been suspended on a forum?

How did you approach the subject of the "miracle at Fatima"?  I have been suspended on Eastern Catholic forums so I know where you are coming from.  But, generally if you come at a subject in an obtuse manner it can normally be discussed without too much angst.  And it is important to know that you are a guest on the Catholic forum and as such may not get too much sympathy for your opinion. 

I am a former RC and convert to Orthodox Catholicity and I do spend time defending Orthodoxy on non Orthodox forums.   I have to be careful in getting my point across without raising the hackles of the monitors incharge.

JoeS
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Dismus
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« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2006, 12:35:16 AM »

How did you approach the subject of the "miracle at Fatima"?ÂÂ  I have been suspended on Eastern Catholic forums so I know where you are coming from.ÂÂ  But, generally if you come at a subject in an obtuse manner it can normally be discussed without too much angst.ÂÂ  And it is important to know that you are a guest on the Catholic forum and as such may not get too much sympathy for your opinion.ÂÂ  

I am a former RC and convert to Orthodox Catholicity and I do spend time defending Orthodoxy on non Orthodox forums.  ÃƒÆ’‚ I have to be careful in getting my point across without raising the hackles of the monitors incharge.

JoeS

Dear kind Joe,

I am RCC still (sigh) but I did not bring it up. It was on a thread about Mary and the thread was off topic and got moved to another spot that was about miracles surrounding Mary.
That is when I piped up and gave my 2 cents.
I was nice about it- they "know" I am conservative RCC and still ----
I was not trying to be controversial- just saying it with charity.
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« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2006, 12:10:15 PM »

Just a rant.
Not expecting anyone will be able to say much about it. I was respectful, but I said that I think it is laughable and embarrassing. I suggested we should get rid of the whole thing and pretend it never happened at all.

You would have thought I was Osama. So, I explained that why not get rid of it since you don't have to believe it anyway, and it raises too many red flags anyway.

Once again, I was accused of Hating Saints!

So, I kinda let it roll off my back but then I go on (stupidly) and say that Maybe we need to rethink all the Saints that got fast tracking and how many there are in sheer numbers.

I got suspended. Embarrassed

So, I am not mad or anything but they did not give a reason for it, and I was not rude.

Geepers.

Just venting. Has anyone here been suspended on a forum?

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued peace Dismus,

To say that you were respectful, but then said that such was laughable and embarrassing is difficult for me to reconcile. A few of us 'Old Catholics' have actually been to Fatima on pilgrimage and found great spiritual nourishment from the encounter. I could understand if your assertion that such is laughable and embarrassing might be extremely offensive to some. Of course I don't know what you actually said but you appear to be a bit condescending in your tone concerning the matter. Perhaps this is your personal feelings but I would humbly suggest that you exercise as much restraint in discussing this matter with those who have deep trust and faith in it being legitimate.

Sancte Francisce, Patriarcha pauperum, ora pro nobis.
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Francisce-Christophorus

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Dismus
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« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2006, 12:19:14 PM »

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued peace Dismus,

To say that you were respectful, but then said that such was laughable and embarrassing is difficult for me to reconcile. A few of us 'Old Catholics' have actually been to Fatima on pilgrimage and found great spiritual nourishment from the encounter. I could understand if your assertion that such is laughable and embarrassing might be extremely offensive to some. Of course I don't know what you actually said but you appear to be a bit condescending in your tone concerning the matter. Perhaps this is your personal feelings but I would humbly suggest that you exercise as much restraint in discussing this matter with those who have deep trust and faith in it being legitimate.

Sancte Francisce, Patriarcha pauperum, ora pro nobis.

Thank you for your insight on this and sharing with me your experience at Fatima.

BTW- did you see the Interfaith Shrine while there?
You know the banjo shaped ecumenical building where pagans and Muslims and Buhdists go to worship with certain Catholics?
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francis-christopher
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« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2006, 12:58:41 PM »

Thank you for your insight on this and sharing with me your experience at Fatima.

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued peace Dismus,

You are most welcome but please note that Fatima is what the Church characterizes as a 'personal revelation' and need not be believed or trusted by Catholics. So I am not here suggesting that in order to be a 'good' Catholic one must accept Fatima only that one's views of Fatima not be a stumbling block for one's brothers and sisters in the faith.

I felt the need to clarify myself.

Quote
BTW- did you see the Interfaith Shrine while there?

No, I have not been inside the Interfaith Shrine but neither do I find it particularly offensive as some might find acknowledging the existence of those in the world who don't claim the grace found in our faith. As a Catholic I do believe we need to live our faith 'in the world' and serve as salt and light, especially among those who find themselves in a situation where the grace found in Christ is perhaps not available to them for whatever reason.

I am not one who ultimately believes in separatism.

Quote
You know the banjo shaped ecumenical building where pagans and Muslims and Buhdists go to worship with certain Catholics?

Yes I know the building but I would disagree in your characterization that they 'worship' with Catholics. They do hold interfaith non-sectarian prayers but I wouldn't frame your comments of their activities as 'worship'. They do not attend or hold a Eucharist with those who are not Christian. That is where I would characterize Worship and they do not do that there. Of course you are free to disagree with my definition of 'worship'. I simply felt that you offered your characterization as a form of criticism which was perhaps unmerited for the case.

Now there is and there are cases where I have a great deal of concern with the Roman Catholic Church in Europe and America but it is no more a concern than I find within other denominations, including Orthodoxy. It is clear to me that Western Society is eroding our religious values in Catholicism as well as other more concervative expressions of faith. This is even found in Islamic families living within Western Society. Western Sectarianism 'is' in a certain sense a competitive religion which is at odds with Catholicism but I don't believe we ultimately win by running away and hiding from it nor do I believe relief is ultimately found in fleeing to ethnic onclaves within the larger Western Social Structure. I can appreciate the sentiment though and I can appreciate the concern some would have with regards to interfaith activities, especially if such creates an atmosphere of equality or syncretism which the Vatican clearly opposes.

Being one who is 'not' a separatist I engage faith communities in dialogue just as I am doing here with my conviction in my faith but hopefully fully expressing myself in charity. Amen.

Sancte Francisce, Patriarcha pauperum, ora pro nobis.
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Francisce-Christophorus

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« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2006, 01:35:27 PM »

Dear Francis Christopher,

I can't help but feel that this has, along with other practices (altar girls, Charismatics, and more) caused me to wonder what is happening to the Church now.
Couple that with the never ending streams of scandals, and I think it speaks for itself that many have left the Church as they were watching it give the store away.

You are right in saying I should be more charitable. I also think that it is impossible to be charitible watching your Church crumble.

So I guess the only answer is to give it to God as many will say right?

I'm not so sure.

Why can't Catholics be upset that this is happening?
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« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2006, 03:24:59 PM »

Dear Francis Christopher,

I can't help but feel that this has, along with other practices (altar girls, Charismatics, and more) caused me to wonder what is happening to the Church now. Couple that with the never ending streams of scandals, and I think it speaks for itself that many have left the Church as they were watching it give the store away.

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued peace Dismus,

I would say that it is often the perspective of the laity that 'the Church' is an external 'thing' in which 'they' participate. It's state is ultimately the responsibility of the clergy often described as 'them', thus (altar girls, Charismatics, homosexual Priests, etc) is ultimately a statement of 'them' whose responsibility it is to maintain 'the Church' so that 'they' can be proud participates in it's grace and virtue.

Truly, I believe such is the perspective of many in the West concerning a great many things. It is ultimately an afront to their egosÂÂ  to be associated with anything which does not reflect their unblemished character. Such is hubris and reflective of just how far our culture has slipped from taking responsibility for itself and it's relationship with God through the institution of the Church.

In all honestly I have no 'real' concern with 'altar girls' nor 'Charismatics' whom are truly moved by the Holy Spirit but I do recognize that since Vatican II the laity have been confused by the sheer amount of change which the Roman Catholic Church has been involved with. So I can appreciate concern but what I don't appreciate is the lack of responsibility in which many stand in criticism to the state of the Church in the West.

Do 'we' practice our faith as we should? How often do we observe the Liturgy of the Hours, reflect on Scripture (Lectio Divina), confess our sins, invite the Parish Priest over for dinner with the family? All of these were common activities and many laity fail to live the faith in our century to it's fullest nor to even recognize their role in the life of the Church. If such is the state of the laity what state will one find the clergy from which they are drawn? Far too many believe 'sin' is 'out there' so they believe they can 'separate' from it by going someplace else which ultimately doesn't remind them of the real state they may find themselves. I have never accepted such a separatist viewpoint because I ultimately assume the worst sinner is right here in me. I start with me and ultimately I end with me.

What can 'I' do 'in the Church' to serve and make her shine as the vessel of grace I know her to be? How can I do that for her? By getting out of the way of Him for starters and letting Him work through me.

Our relationship with God is ultimately a personal one expressed through our life, a life as a member of the Church. A servant of the Body. In order to clean the house, we're bound to get dirty and all too often our egos won't let us do the real work of the spirit. I find that truly shameful.

Quote
You are right in saying I should be more charitable. I also think that it is impossible to be charitible watching your Church crumble.

Where one man is filled with the Holy Spirit there exists within him hope which can never be overcome. To live without hope within is to live without the Holy Spirit. Cling to Him and you will never be without 'real' hope in everything that you do. Amen.

Quote
So I guess the only answer is to give it to God as many will say right?

I'm not so sure.

Why can't Catholics be upset that this is happening?

Because such a response avoids taking responsibility. As long as one looks at the Church as an institution of 'them' we fail to grasp the unity of the Holy Spirit which makes us 'truly' one. Amen.

Sancte Francisce, Patriarcha pauperum, ora pro nobis.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 03:43:52 PM by francis-christopher » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2006, 03:34:22 PM »

I've been banned from more than one Catholic forum... probably mostly for good reasons. I guess different forums just have different levels of tolerance, not only for differences of opinion but also for the tone/manner in which you express those differences. I've only actively participated on a couple dozen forums over the years, but fwiw I think that Theologyonline.com is probably the best I've seen as far as openness; however, the result is that you often get bombarded by rude posters who feel free to say whatever they want. So, freedom of speech can maybe be taken too far? I'd say that Orthodoxchristianity.net is second, with mostly just a rare edit here and there for empropr spellin', or bad language. Euphrosynoscafe is also pretty open, with mostly rebukings about not calling a Deacon "Father," bad language, and stuff like that. I guess you just have to abide by the rules of whatever forum you are a part of.
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Dismus
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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2006, 03:35:23 PM »

Good stuff except when did I get to or anyone else get to "vote" on this matter?
No wonder I feel its THEM and US.
The Bishops here in the States are the problem , not the layity!
MY God man, no matter how many holy laypersons there were, it would not matter!

I don't understand you at all. I also don't see how anyone can be sure about Charismatics and if they are really being led by the Spirit of God or something else- after all this is Protestant and an innovation.
Altar girls have reduced the number of interested boys to go for it.
Sorry, I am not able to buy this at all.

Nice try though.

Thanks for your thoughts on this, but we are at an impass here as I don't think a walking Saint would be able to change this mess.

That is also another point- with all the Saints we have- still not enough to keep things running right is baffling to me...
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« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2006, 04:00:45 PM »

Good stuff except when did I get to or anyone else get to "vote" on this matter?

No wonder I feel its THEM and US.

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued peace Dismus,

Do you vote in Orthodoxy? Perhaps if we participated in a Council...

Quote
The Bishops here in the States are the problem , not the laity!
MY God man, no matter how many holy laypersons there were, it would not matter!

Truly you lack hope. I am truly sorry for this. Perhaps in time it will return. You will be in my prayers.

Quote
I don't understand you at all. I also don't see how anyone can be sure about Charismatics and if they are really being led by the Spirit of God or something else- after all this is Protestant and an innovation.
Altar girls have reduced the number of interested boys to go for it.
Sorry, I am not able to buy this at all.

Ultimately I am not in the Church to pass judgment on others. I trust that God will guide those whom He calls. When I encounter error I am one who will enquire into the matter but I am always aware of my weakenesses as a man and am not quick to find fault in others.

Quote
Nice try though.

As long as you discard my posts in such a way they will fail to offer any real value.

Quote
Thanks for your thoughts on this, but we are at an impass here as I don't think a walking Saint would be able to change this mess.

That is also another point- with all the Saints we have- still not enough to keep things running right is baffling to me...

If one with the faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains how much more could a Saint do? Again your lack of faith blinds you to the possibilities hope affords. Truly that is a great shame you are in my prayers.

Knowing that my posts have antagonized you. I will not post again but I would simply ask that you spend your time in prayer and getting closer to God and His grace which fills us with all hope in His peace. Amen.

Sancte Francisce, Patriarcha pauperum, ora pro nobis.
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« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2006, 04:23:05 PM »

Quote
there for empropr spellin',

Wondering if he should abuse powers and moderate for atrocious spelling Wink   Grin


FWIW I've been moderated on Catholic forums, and there are others I got annoyed, because I was looked at almost like "Our little-eastern brother!  Come back . . . you have my lung!  LOVE ME!"  Don't take forums too seriously. 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 04:23:27 PM by dantxny » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2006, 04:29:15 PM »


FWIW I've been moderated on Catholic forums, and there are others I got annoyed, because I was looked at almost like "Our little-eastern brother!  Come back . . . you have my lung!  LOVE ME!"  ÃƒÆ’‚  



LOL! I needed that right now, after reading some 'bizarre ramblings' made by another poster who just can't figure basic stuff out...
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