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Offline Troldhaugen

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Kissing
« on: August 13, 2006, 07:14:02 PM »
Today, I was present at services at a monastery where I spent a few days. I noticed that several people (mainly the older ladies) shook hands with the monks at the end of the services and kissed their hands. Is this normal and if it is, why were they doing it and is it something you should do?
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Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2006, 07:31:22 PM »
Did the ladies kiss all the monks's hands, or just the priest-monks?
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Offline Troldhaugen

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2006, 07:43:10 PM »
All the monks hands.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2006, 08:04:53 PM »
There is no reason to kiss all monks' hands but some people do it out of piety.  You only need kiss a priestmonk's hand (or a bishop of course).

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Offline Dismus

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2006, 09:04:52 PM »
Or if in Rome, the Pope's ring of course! :o

Offline alexp4uni

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2006, 01:04:46 AM »
Or if in Rome, the Pope's ring of course! :o


Kissing a ring is unecessary as I dont do this in my parish. No respect will be gained unless your priest's relationship is acknowleged with financially helping the parish to pay its bills.  So if you want to spit on the blessed father go ahead as a Cardinal would rather have a hand shake. :-*

Offline choirfiend

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2006, 02:22:32 AM »

Kissing a ring is unecessary as I dont do this in my parish. No respect will be gained unless your priest's relationship is acknowleged with financially helping the parish to pay its bills.  So if you want to spit on the blessed father go ahead as a Cardinal would rather have a hand shake. :-*


Alex, what? If you're Orthodox, you kiss the priest's hand. If you're Catholic, you shouldn't advocate such terrible things. Care to clarify?


I was at a monastery last weekend and some of the older women who were visiting kissed the hands of the nuns! Even the sisters who aren't full monastic Mothers yet! I think it's folk piety coming from people who do not know the reason WHY you kiss a priest's hand and who instead are trying to be respectful of all clergy or monastics.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2006, 02:23:14 AM by choirfiend »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2006, 02:47:34 AM »
At the monastery I attend Liturgy, the Abbot (an Athonite) will not allow anyone to kiss his hand outside of Liturgical services, as was the practice of the Heiromonks of Mount Athos whenever I was there. Wouldn't it be a much better world if everyone kissed everyone's hand? :)

Actually, I was surprised to find a thread entitled "Kissing" that wasn't started by Matthew. :D
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Offline CRCulver

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2006, 11:22:43 AM »
Hand-kissing certainly differs from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In the OCA, it was an entirely usual practise, but in Romania (at least Transylvania, I know Moldavia is different) priests would jerk their hand away with horror should anyone try to kiss it.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2006, 12:12:28 PM »
"Jerk their hand away" - I still know a lot of priests who will do that (and even a bishop or two).
« Last Edit: August 14, 2006, 12:13:02 PM by cleveland »
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Offline suzannes

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2006, 09:02:11 PM »
Cleveland,
Could you explain why a bishop would not permit someone to kiss his hand?  I thought that was what you are
supposed to do!  Also, why would a priest object?  I don't know, but I just think that confuses people further... A lot of priests have a great gesture where they put their hand almost at your lips, just in case you're unsure or forget.

Offline suzannes

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2006, 09:02:53 PM »
Sorry about the italics!!! Guess I messed that up!

Offline Troldhaugen

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2006, 11:08:58 AM »
Thankyou for all your replies. What about an Archimandrite in the Russian Tradition? Should you kiss his hand?
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2006, 11:47:17 AM »
Well, the particular bishop I have in mind does the hand-jerk when he's at the seminary, because he perceives a lot of the gentlemen as being less than genuine... even the priests that jerk their hand away only do it to people with whom they are very familiar.  With strangers, or with the general population, they normally let people kiss their hands.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2006, 06:16:56 PM »
I have a couple of things to say about this...

In Serbia, more specifically in Vojvodina (northern Serbian province) people used to greet each other with the exclamation "ljubim ruke" (i'm kissing hands) and they would go around and kiss every person's hand who is worthy of respece (ex.  older people, women of any age, etc.).  It was just a part of the culture to kiss each other's hands as a sign of respect. 

In the one Coptic church i've ever been to during the "kiss of peace" in the liturgy the people went around exchanging the kiss of peace through their hands, not kissing on the cheek as i've seen in EO parishes. 

I think that kissing any nun or monk's hands who is not ordained, an official abbot or elder is bad form, and bad for the monk/nun's spirituality and humility. 

I also have a HUGE issue with any priest or bishop who doesn't let me or any other person kiss their hand.  Arn't they conduits of the Holy Spirit?  Don't they bless people every Liturgy from that hand?  Yet the instant Liturgy ends, they can't bless people?  How does THAT work?

Anyway...i have some personal issues with some of this stuff, so forgive my gruff response. 
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Offline suzannes

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2006, 06:55:23 PM »
Thanks Cleveland, I see what you mean; it's as though the priest is saying "no need to do that."  Still, it's a gesture of respect and really *should* be received gracefully (is that a word???)

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2006, 08:29:33 PM »
Yes, it's a word... and I agree.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2006, 12:15:21 AM »
I agree too....big time...
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Offline CRCulver

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2006, 08:17:33 AM »
In Serbia, more specifically in Vojvodina (northern Serbian province) people used to greet each other with the exclamation "ljubim ruke" (i'm kissing hands)

Common Slavonic *ljubiti "to love" has now changed in meaning to "to kiss" in Serbian? Then what's the modern Serbian word for "to love"?

Quote
I also have a HUGE issue with any priest or bishop who doesn't let me or any other person kiss their hand.  Arn't they conduits of the Holy Spirit?  Don't they bless people every Liturgy from that hand?  Yet the instant Liturgy ends, they can't bless people?  How does THAT work?

The priests I know who are uncomfortable with parishioners kissing their hand are perfectly happy to bless without the kiss following.

Offline serb1389

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2006, 10:32:49 AM »
Common Slavonic *ljubiti "to love" has now changed in meaning to "to kiss" in Serbian? Then what's the modern Serbian word for "to love"?

The common word for "to love" in Serbian is "ljubiti"

The word for kiss is "ljubiti" 

Its the same word, you know the difference by implication...or explanation....

Quote
The priests I know who are uncomfortable with parishioners kissing their hand are perfectly happy to bless without the kiss following.

I'm not particularly concerned with their happiness.  I'm concerned about what's the theological, not to mention spiritual, implication of what they're doing. 
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Offline CRCulver

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2006, 10:52:51 AM »
I'm not particularly concerned with their happiness.  I'm concerned about what's the theological, not to mention spiritual, implication of what they're doing. 

You wrote as if it's not a real blessing without the parishioner kissing the hand afterward. That's simply not true.

Offline serb1389

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2006, 10:58:06 AM »
Oh sorry about that, I was WAY too unspecific.

That's not what I meant at all. 

Actually...now that i'm thinking about it...that was what I was thinking. 

I've seen priests give blessings but pull their hands away.  None of them DON'T give blessings, they just refuse to have their hands kissed...

Yet what about their hands touching the Body and Blood of Christ?  Is this not also a reason why we kiss their hands? 

Why DO we kiss their hands after a blessing??  Sign of respect?  Or something more?
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Offline Dismus

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2006, 11:31:45 AM »
Kissing Icons, Priests hands, whatever- it seems to me that Orthodoxy is filled with sharing love.
And, possibly a lot of germs ::)

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2006, 01:40:22 PM »

And, possibly a lot of germs ::)

"That which does not kill you only makes you stronger"ÂÂ  ;)

Secondly, yes, I too have met priests who pull their hand away. When the priest would pull their hand away it would bother me a little, since it would make me wonder if there was something (even more) wrong with me. Therefore I let people venerate my hand but I say a quick prayer for them, so that the feeling they are expressing is passed on to Christ Himself as well as a reminder to myself that this is the case.

However, perhaps the priest who is pulling his hand away is doing so out of humility, knowing that he is unworthy of such a sign of respect. Because of this I pray that I have the strength to stop any sins of pride that may come to me from others venerating my hand or otherwise deferring to me. Pride is a terrible thing indeed!

And for all these reasons we should always try to pray for our clergy every day!

« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 01:41:29 PM by chris »
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2006, 02:24:26 PM »
Kissing Icons, Priests hands, whatever- it seems to me that Orthodoxy is filled with sharing love.
And, possibly a lot of germs ::)

Guess no Kiss of Peace in your future?  :D
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Offline Dismus

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2006, 02:30:44 PM »
I personally don't do the kiss thing, although I am not opposed to it. I prefer a quick handshake or a smile and nod. In the winter I carry hand wipes to discretly clean up if I heard them cough or something gross.
People should stay home if they are sick.
Really.

But I would change to whatever the customary norm is in a Parish.

Offline Troldhaugen

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2006, 02:35:22 PM »
Can anyone explain exactly what the kiss of peace is and how it works and when?
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2006, 03:28:40 PM »
To the comment above, kissing the hand of an abbess is certainly "kosher." Abbesses have a lot of power actually; enthroned, bless from throne, have staff, etc.  As for the other nuns, yeah, folk piety I guess.

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« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 03:29:04 PM by Anastasios »
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Offline StBrigid

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2006, 07:18:04 PM »
Can anyone explain exactly what the kiss of peace is and how it works and when?
This seems to work differently in various jurisdictions.  I'll speak for the OO churches I'm familiar with.  In the Coptic Church, you kiss your fingertips and then grasp the hands of someone nearby.  Kiss, grab, repeat.  :)

In the Armenian Orthodox Church, a double cheek kiss is passed down the row (assuming pews, I guess).

If I'm not mistaken, in EO jurisdictions only the deacons and priest exchange a kiss of peace?

Offline StBrigid

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2006, 07:19:30 PM »
I personally don't do the kiss thing, although I am not opposed to it. I prefer a quick handshake or a smile and nod. In the winter I carry hand wipes to discretly clean up if I heard them cough or something gross.
How do you deal with the chalice, then??

Offline Dismus

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2006, 07:25:42 PM »
How do you deal with the chalice, then??

Don't. We get an "azyeme"  I think you call it. We get only one species. RCC is efficient.
The kiss of peace is really just now a shake of the hand. I kiss the Priests cheek though. Certain ones. After Mass and as a farewell gesture. My little one says ohh icky mommy! Only daddy and me mommy! She is a toddler and already sees this as wierd.

Offline Thomas

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2006, 12:04:54 PM »
To be fair and accurate, in the Roman Catholic Church the wafer bread is made with flour and white wine, thus in RCC theology when one gets the body they are also getting the blood.  This is not the way the EO church views the body but it should be noted the RCC believes that they are indeed getting the body and blood at the same time.

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Offline Dismus

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2006, 12:10:20 PM »
To be fair and accurate, in the Roman Catholic Church the wafer bread is made with flour and white wine, thus in RCC theology when one gets the body they are also getting the blood.ÂÂ  This is not the way the EO church views the body but it should be noted the RCC believes that they are indeed getting the body and blood at the same time.

In Christ,
Thomas

You are right on Thomas! I meant to say both in one, I can't believe how silly that was to say one species... 

I don't understand is why they changed it, and I never cared enough to ask which is sad.

Not even sure if this was prior to Vat II or not. Food for thought I guess.

Offline Thomas

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2006, 04:15:18 AM »
THey have been making their bread with wine since before the schism, indeed that was one of the issue with the species that they brought up and their insistence on communing with one species only.

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Offline serb1389

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2006, 09:38:13 AM »
THey have been making their bread with wine since before the schism, indeed that was one of the issue with the species that they brought up and their insistence on communing with one species only.

Thomas

Can someone explain this a little further?  What is species?  If you'd rather post a link that would be helpful also.  Thanks! 
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Offline Dismus

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2006, 10:10:03 AM »
Okay,

This is not super helpful, but I just woke up and no coffee yet. Up all night since hubbie is now a grampa.

Okay, The CCC upon quick glance addresses the word here

1353

..........blah blah.................

In the institution narrative , the power of the words and the action of Christ,and the power of the Holy Spirit, make sacrementally present under the species of bread and wine Christ's body and blood, his sacrifice offered on the cross once and for all.


I'll keep looking for you-

Offline serb1389

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2006, 11:01:51 AM »
Thanks for that.  It helps put things in perspective.  But i'm still not really understanding WHAT it is.  If that makes any sense...
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Offline Dismus

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2006, 12:22:13 PM »
I hope this is more clear-http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04175a.htm

There are other sub categories to check out on that page too.
I thought the OC used the same word.?

Offline serb1389

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2006, 12:47:24 PM »
I hope this is more clear-http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04175a.htm

There are other sub categories to check out on that page too.
I thought the OC used the same word.?

I've never heard that terminology.  DEFINATELY not in the OC, and not even in the RC church.  I've heard things like "accidentals" within transubstantiation and etc. 

But never "species"....i'm gona read that article now, maybe that will shed some light. 
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2006, 01:29:28 PM »
So after reading that article i've come to understand species as the Body and Blood of Christ (bread and wine). 

Species, in this case, being a DESCRIPTIVE word. 

Can I assume that it is not denoting that bread and wine are their own species?  Or is there something more to this? 

Can someone perhaps explain to me the usage of the word "species" and why?

I'm pretty sure its a direct translation to a Latin word, but i'm also sure that there's more to this than a literal translation....
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Offline Dismus

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2006, 01:54:57 PM »
It's beyond me.  ???

Let's ask Matthew. He was a RC.

Offline Princeps

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2006, 03:20:02 AM »
I never got the kissing thing either... when I went to St. Anthony's in Springfield, I saw everyone kissing the priest's hand so I did the same too but I felt kinda awkward doing it, like what if I'm doing it wrong or something?

Offline Thomas

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2006, 04:49:33 PM »
I am uncertain why the word "species"s used however it is definitely defined in the West to mean the Bread (ie the body) and wine (the blood) inÂÂ  those heterodox Churches that recognize the real presence of Christ in their communion ( RCC, COE, and Lutheran). I believe it refers to the substance before consecration (ie. "the species of bread becomes the body of Christ when consecrated) andÂÂ  the outward appearance of the Body and blood as in "The Roman Catholic communes in one species"ÂÂ  or "The Anglican communes in both species".

When I was taking my Catechism instruction I was told that Orthodox Christians kiss the hand of the Bishop and the Priest as a matter of Respect and honor to Jesus Christ, both the Bishop and the priest have the awesome responsibility of touching the consecrated body and blood of Jesus and as such kissing the hand is a form of kissing those who are closest to God by handling his Most Holy Body and Blood thus honoring  Christ, not the priest or Bishop. We kiss Icons for much the same reason, out of love and devotion to Christ trhu His Saints.

In Christ,
Thomas



Thomas
« Last Edit: August 19, 2006, 04:55:07 PM by Thomas »
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Re: Kissing
« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2006, 08:22:19 PM »
So after reading that article i've come to understand species as the Body and Blood of Christ (bread and wine). 

Species, in this case, being a DESCRIPTIVE word. 

Can I assume that it is not denoting that bread and wine are their own species?  Or is there something more to this? 

Can someone perhaps explain to me the usage of the word "species" and why?

I'm pretty sure its a direct translation to a Latin word, but i'm also sure that there's more to this than a literal translation....

The word "species" comes from the latin word for "appearance". This is important because of the Roman Catholic understanding of "Transubstantiation". According to this doctrine, in the Eucharist, the Bread becomes the whole Person of Christ while maintaining the "species" ("appearance") of Bread, and the Wine also becomes the whole Person of Christ while maintaining the "species" of wine. And since both "species" contain the whole Christ, one need only recieve one of them. According to this teaching, Christ remains Present in both species as long as the species ('appearance") of Bread and Wine remain. If it stops looking like Bread and Wine, it stops being the Real Presence.
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Kissing
« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2006, 10:51:50 AM »
George,

When i've read texts concerning Transubstantiation they always used the word "accidentals" instead of the word "species"  is there a difference?  Just a different way of saying it? 

Would one be more correct according to Catholic theology?? 

Quote
According to this teaching, Christ remains Present in both species as long as the species ('appearance") of Bread and Wine remain. If it stops looking like Bread and Wine, it stops being the Real Presence.

How would it stop being Bread and Wine?  And if this were to ever happen is there any thing prescribed in RC books for how to handle the situation? 

I got nothing.
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