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Author Topic: Why I got angry at Mass on Sunday (Transfiguration)  (Read 9072 times) Average Rating: 0
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Dismus
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« on: August 08, 2006, 04:14:49 PM »

Umm, I am not sure if I should be angry or not but I was.
The Priest was letting people walk off with the Eucharist without watching them consume before he let them go.
I thought they could not do that since someone could walk off with it and use it for some evil purpose!!
Does anyone know the rules and regs on this in the RCC?
Also, this could never happen in an Orthodox Church simply because of the manner in which Orthodox recieve.
Then it hit me, am I angry about the lack of reverence, the rules, or the manner in which it is done???
Maybe all of the above.
Also hardly anyone was bowing their head!
I saw all this since I abstained from recieving. I feel I have a mortal sin I did not confess.
So, the EM's (which I can't stand) were minimally protecting the Eucharist - but Father himself was tossing it out like a ticket to a ball game.

Maybe talking about him like this is another sin.......Huh
oh well. Might as well rack em up for the next confession.
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« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2006, 04:34:03 PM »

I must comment that if someone wants to profane the Holy Gifts there is in truth little anyone can do about it whether one receives in the hand or the mouth.  One could simply not swallow the Holy Gifts proccede out of Church later and profane them at one's convenience.

Whether one receives reverently and respectfully is about one's disposition not the manner in which one receives.

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« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2006, 04:39:39 PM »

I must comment that if someone wants to profane the Holy Gifts there is in truth little anyone can do about it whether one receives in the hand or the mouth.ÂÂ  One could simply not swallow the Holy Gifts proccede out of Church later and profane them at one's convenience.

Whether one receives reverently and respectfully is about one's disposition not the manner in which one receives.

Fr. Deacon Lance

That is why the Priest or EM is supposed to hold them back until they SEE them consume!
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« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2006, 11:24:31 PM »

In the early Church (in some areas anyway) they sometimes took it home with them. Imagine the evil possibilities! Seriously, your holy book says that people were sick and even dying because they partook of communion unworthily. If someone does something bad with the eucharist, he'll make sure they have what's coming to them.
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« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2006, 02:09:26 AM »

I am told that is is only "good for one hour" after that - it is nothing.
Who came up with this?
random time?
URrrgh...
Thank you for the response, but now I am only MORE angry!

(*&*&^(& that would put Jesus at risk like this!!!
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« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2006, 10:10:15 AM »

"That is why the Priest or EM is supposed to hold them back until they SEE them consume!"

And how are they to do that? Make them open up their mouths and lift their tongues?  It is unfortunate but those who really want to profane the Holy Gifts can do so but as related above God will take care of that.

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« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2006, 03:49:45 PM »

"That is why the Priest or EM is supposed to hold them back until they SEE them consume!"

And how are they to do that? Make them open up their mouths and lift their tongues?ÂÂ  It is unfortunate but those who really want to profane the Holy Gifts can do so but as related above God will take care of that.

Fr. Deacon Lance


I don't know about your parish but my usual Priest actually puts his arm out to block somone from going past without consuming in front of him.

I have seen this in a lot of RC parishes.

Wow. Maybe I have been lucky after all......
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« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2006, 03:59:26 PM »

Of course you do realize that "in the hand" is correct, as the Copts do; the use of the spoon ("uncanonical", I've heard) was made in the EO to prevent abuses.
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« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2006, 04:23:34 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9692.msg130893#msg130893 date=1155153566]
Of course you do realize that "in the hand" is correct, as the Copts do[/quote]

Normative Coptic practice is that the priest put the Holy Body directly inside the mouth of the communicant (i.e. by his very own hand). Copts approach the Holy Body with a piece of cloth in their hand strictly for the purpose of covering their mouths after they receive the Holy Body in their mouths, in case any small piece fall out whilst theyre consuming it.

I have never witnessed, or heard, of any Coptic parish where the communicant is given the Holy Body in their hands.
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« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2006, 04:34:03 PM »

Then I am duly corrected by our Coptic Guru. Seems this was posted here about 2 - 2 1/2 years ago.
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« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2006, 05:33:21 PM »

Umm, I am not sure if I should be angry or not but I was.
The Priest was letting people walk off with the Eucharist without watching them consume before he let them go.
I thought they could not do that since someone could walk off with it and use it for some evil purpose!!
Does anyone know the rules and regs on this in the RCC?
Also, this could never happen in an Orthodox Church simply because of the manner in which Orthodox recieve.
Then it hit me, am I angry about the lack of reverence, the rules, or the manner in which it is done???
Maybe all of the above.
Also hardly anyone was bowing their head!
I saw all this since I abstained from recieving. I feel I have a mortal sin I did not confess.
So, the EM's (which I can't stand) were minimally protecting the Eucharist - but Father himself was tossing it out like a ticket to a ball game.

Maybe talking about him like this is another sin.......Huh
oh well. Might as well rack em up for the next confession.


Why not dispense the Eucharist like the Middle East Catholics do, by intinctur.  Each host is dipped into wine and placed on the tongue of those receiving.  There is very little chance of someone trying to remove a wetted host once in the mouth.  I see this as a very safe way of receiving.

JoeS
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« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2006, 06:49:00 PM »

Normative Coptic practice is that the priest put the Holy Body directly inside the mouth of the communicant (i.e. by his very own hand). Copts approach the Holy Body with a piece of cloth in their hand strictly for the purpose of covering their mouths after they receive the Holy Body in their mouths, in case any small piece fall out whilst theyre consuming it.

I have never witnessed, or heard, of any Coptic parish where the communicant is given the Holy Body in their hands.

Actually we used to receive in the hand a very, very long time ago.  That's the reason for the cloth, the communicant recieved the Body in their hand, with one hand cupped under the other, and the cloth on top both to form a throne, and then the communicant raised the Body to their mouth... However this was in the early centuries, now the priest places the Body in the communicant's mouth... The cloth however is a carry over that just didn't change with the practice.  If you think about it the cloth doesn't make much sense now.  It wasn't intended to be for small particles falling out... if that does happen the cloth won't help since it's just thrown back in the pile afterwards anyways... Covering the hand out of respect like how some priests use a cloth to hold the vessels makes sense.. .that's where it came from.
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« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2006, 07:31:30 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9692.msg130893#msg130893 date=1155153566]
Of course you do realize that "in the hand" is correct, as the Copts do; the use of the spoon ("uncanonical", I've heard) was made in the EO to prevent abuses.
[/quote]
I agree, but with no knowledge just pure emotion. I personally like and PREFER in the hand.
But- this is opening the door to problems if not done correctly, and I don't know the GRIM or anything like that to say much on it.
I thought the brainiacs here could clear this one up.

Thanks. You seem to always make me feel better somehow even when I get mad and confused.
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« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2006, 07:32:24 PM »

Normative Coptic practice is that the priest put the Holy Body directly inside the mouth of the communicant (i.e. by his very own hand). Copts approach the Holy Body with a piece of cloth in their hand strictly for the purpose of covering their mouths after they receive the Holy Body in their mouths, in case any small piece fall out whilst theyre consuming it.

I have never witnessed, or heard, of any Coptic parish where the communicant is given the Holy Body in their hands.

This is nice to know but how does it help me?
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« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2006, 07:34:18 PM »

Why not dispense the Eucharist like the Middle East Catholics do, by intinctur.ÂÂ  Each host is dipped into wine and placed on the tongue of those receiving.ÂÂ  There is very little chance of someone trying to remove a wetted host once in the mouth.ÂÂ  I see this as a very safe way of receiving.

JoeS

Okay, you get my vote to be the Priest at my parish.
But how do I convince or even bring this up to him since I don't know the facts on the RC way of this to be either an abuse or a Huh? you fill in the blank.
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« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2006, 07:35:58 PM »

Actually we used to receive in the hand a very, very long time ago.ÂÂ  That's the reason for the cloth, the communicant recieved the Body in their hand, with one hand cupped under the other, and the cloth on top both to form a throne, and then the communicant raised the Body to their mouth... However this was in the early centuries, now the priest places the Body in the communicant's mouth... The cloth however is a carry over that just didn't change with the practice.ÂÂ  If you think about it the cloth doesn't make much sense now.ÂÂ  It wasn't intended to be for small particles falling out... if that does happen the cloth won't help since it's just thrown back in the pile afterwards anyways... Covering the hand out of respect like how some priests use a cloth to hold the vessels makes sense.. .that's where it came from.

Okay. I am already as you might know considering Orthodoxy and THIS may be the deal breaker for me since it makes me so mad.
It is bad enough the RC Priest gives the Eucharist to anyone he never met, but this is DISTURBING.
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« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2006, 09:24:05 PM »

This is nice to know but how does it help me?

Sometimes threads on forums such as this wander about and sub-threads emerge. You should just ignore the posts that do not interest you.

Anastasios
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« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2006, 11:24:08 PM »

Quote
Quote from: Jonathan
Actually we used to receive in the hand a very, very long time ago.  That's the reason for the cloth, the communicant recieved the Body in their hand, with one hand cupped under the other, and the cloth on top both to form a throne, and then the communicant raised the Body to their mouth... However this was in the early centuries, now the priest places the Body in the communicant's mouth... The cloth however is a carry over that just didn't change with the practice.  If you think about it the cloth doesn't make much sense now.  It wasn't intended to be for small particles falling out... if that does happen the cloth won't help since it's just thrown back in the pile afterwards anyways... Covering the hand out of respect like how some priests use a cloth to hold the vessels makes sense.. .that's where it came from.
Okay. I am already as you might know considering Orthodoxy and THIS may be the deal breaker for me since it makes me so mad.
It is bad enough the RC Priest gives the Eucharist to anyone he never met, but this is DISTURBING.

Huh...why would it be a deal-breaker for you?  Jonathan said we DON'T do this anymore.  Standard Orthodox practice in all parishes and monasteries I've been to has been that the priest will spoon-feed both the Body and the Blood directly into the communicant's mouth, then wipe the mouth of the communicant afterwards to ensure that no drops of Blood or bits of Body fall to the floor; this cloth also, when not being used to wipe communicants' mouths, is held like a safety net underneath the chalice to catch anything that might fall.

The EO Eucharist, when distributed in this way, is virtually impossible to not consume, much less transport anywhere or abuse at a later time.
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« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2006, 12:07:17 AM »



Huh...why would it be a deal-breaker for you?ÂÂ  Jonathan said we DON'T do this anymore.ÂÂ  Standard Orthodox practice in all parishes and monasteries I've been to has been that the priest will spoon-feed both the Body and the Blood directly into the communicant's mouth, then wipe the mouth of the communicant afterwards to ensure that no drops of Blood or bits of Body fall to the floor; this cloth also, when not being used to wipe communicants' mouths, is held like a safety net underneath the chalice to catch anything that might fall.

The EO Eucharist, when distributed in this way, is virtually impossible to not consume, much less transport anywhere or abuse at a later time.

The deal breaker here Pedro is for Rome not the Orthodox.
Cleaveland would have got it.

I apologize for not being more clear.
Once again I see more value in the Orthodox way is what I was saying.
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« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2006, 11:37:38 AM »

Deal breaker...Faith ? So its based on the best deal, or let's make a deal...

Houston we have a problem...

james
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« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2006, 12:13:03 PM »

Okay. I am already as you might know considering Orthodoxy and THIS may be the deal breaker for me since it makes me so mad.
It is bad enough the RC Priest gives the Eucharist to anyone he never met, but this is DISTURBING.

No matter. Sounds to me that if you join the Orthodox Church you will jump from parish to parish because you LOOK for things to get upset about. The "deal breaker" is your concern with judging what everyone else is doing and whether it conforms to your ideas on what is "correct". Get over yourself.
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« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2006, 07:16:53 PM »

There are strict guidelines regarding the Eucharist and some people Tom actually take it seriously even if you don't.
It is not about me not being able to get over myself but my realizing that I don't get to pick and chose the rules and must follow them. So people who are cafeteria Catholics or apparently cafeteria Orthodox are the ones who think they know more than the Church and the Saints and Early Fathers. Now that is pure arrogance friend.

It really makes you feel good to name call someone who wants to be in the right place doing the right thing?

Maybe you wouldn't be so snippy if you could humble yourself to the rules and try to accept them.
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« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2006, 07:22:19 PM »

It is not about me not being able to get over myself but my realizing that I don't get to pick and chose the rules and must follow them.

So YOU follow them and stop worrying about everybody else.
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« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2006, 07:26:25 PM »



<So YOU follow them and stop worrying about everybody else.>


Ah but then there would be no forums!
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« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2006, 12:58:17 PM »

I'm still puzzled why someone would pose their "personal problem" relating to a RC Eucharistic practice within a Orthodox forum and not on the numerous RC ones...it gives the impression of one "fishing" for a certain response...even if one is exploring Orthodoxy.

The true purpose indeed will be revealed sooner or later...

james


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« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2006, 03:00:14 PM »

So YOU follow them and stop worrying about everybody else.

TomS, I don't think you're getting the point, Dismus's concern here isn't for himself or for his neighbour, but rather for God. He is concerned about latin priests and eucharistic ministers who do not do their part to protect God from the evil things people can do to him if they happen to sneak a small part of him out of Church. So, clearly, Dismus's concern is altruistic in nature, he understands that God's Security and Well-Being is dependent on the eucharistic ministers of the latin church. And we should be grateful for his concern, and the concern of people like him throughout history, for without them we just might not have a God today.
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« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2006, 03:17:39 PM »

He is concerned about latin priests and eucharistic ministers who do not do their part to protect God from the evil things people can do to him if they happen to sneak a small part of him out of Church.

From the Orthodox perspective Latin priests and eucharistic ministers might as well be distributing Ritz crackers and RC Cola.

And we should be grateful for his concern, and the concern of people like him throughout history, for without them we just might not have a God today.

Pfftt! We would have just created another God. And besides, it is because of people like him/her that the RC's had the Inquisition and the colonists the Salem Witch Trials.
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« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2006, 03:20:33 PM »

I'm still puzzled why someone would pose their "personal problem" relating to a RC Eucharistic practice within a Orthodox forum and not on the numerous RC ones...it gives the impression of one "fishing" for a certain response...even if one is exploring Orthodoxy.

The true purpose indeed will be revealed sooner or later...

james




I have posed this not so personal problem (this effects the community of believers in my mind) to another Priest.
Why I post here is to understand why Orthodox do it in the way they do since it makes sense from a saftey standpoint but I am sure that that is not why it is done this way.
I wonder if in a way that this is a result of the Holy Spirit protecting the OC from unforseen problems like this one just by the mere fact that they have kept a practice that has been around much longer than the way the RCC do it today.
Nothing that conspiratorial going on here.
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« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2006, 03:23:59 PM »

I wonder if in a way that this is a result of the Holy Spirit protecting the OC from unforseen problems like this one just by the mere fact that they have kept a practice that has been around much longer than the way the RCC do it today.

IIRC, the Eucharist used to be accepted in the hand in the OC. It began to be given by the spoon when the Priests discovered that too often, pious people taking it home and putting it on their home alter/icon corner. So it was a way to make the people take it.
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« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2006, 03:30:03 PM »

Pfftt! We would have just created another God. And besides, it is because of people like him/her that the RC's had the Inquisition and the colonists the Salem Witch Trials.

Yeah, but if we created a new one we might have ended up with a worse one than we already have...just look what happened when the Mohammedans decided that their old ones wern't good enough anymore.
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« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2006, 03:31:22 PM »

From the Orthodox perspective Latin priests and eucharistic ministers might as well be distributing Ritz crackers and RC Cola.


This comment is not worthy of response.


Pfftt! We would have just created another God. And besides, it is because of people like him/her that the RC's had the Inquisition and the colonists the Salem Witch Trials.


Wow. Thanks for clueing me in to my plan. Saves me the time to come up with one.
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« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2006, 10:51:44 AM »

Dismus, I understand where you're coming from. For me the "deal breaker" coming out of evangelical Protestantism was Holy Communion. (Of course, there were plenty of other issues, too!) For several months I had been attending both Protestant and Orthodox services. I had for many years been leery of the apparent free-for-all and ad-libbing going on during Communion in my evangelical church. It certainly lacked the reverence and devotion that I really believe is important. Finally one Sunday in my evangelical church, I heard the pastor actually misquote Jesus to make his own point, "Jesus said, 'This is a SYMBOL of my body...of my blood'". I immediately knew that the next time I would take communion it would be as an Orthodox Christian. I was chrismated about eight months later. I urge you to continue to explore the Orthodox faith. Attend as many services as you can. Talk to others, get involved, and above all, pray!

Jim
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« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2006, 01:12:20 PM »

Thanks everyone.

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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2006, 08:15:39 PM »

I just wanted to say that you should be able to approach your priest and ask him questions like this. 

You could always just play dumb and ask him "what is the correct way to recieve the Eucharist?" 

When he gives you an answer, you could respone "ok, because i've seen different things at different churches, and i've even seen people just walk away with the Body, etc."

He may tell you to stop looking at people, but it brings the problem to his attention, which is never a bad thing. 

Just a thought...
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« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2006, 09:29:03 PM »

I just wanted to say that you should be able to approach your priest and ask him questions like this.ÂÂ  

You could always just play dumb and ask him "what is the correct way to recieve the Eucharist?"ÂÂ  

When he gives you an answer, you could respone "ok, because i've seen different things at different churches, and i've even seen people just walk away with the Body, etc."

He may tell you to stop looking at people, but it brings the problem to his attention, which is never a bad thing.ÂÂ  

Just a thought...

Good thought! I might even get my hair dyed blonde for the occasion!
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« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2006, 10:18:40 PM »

I might even get my hair dyed blonde for the occasion!

Why? Trying to make yourself more attractive for the priest? No chance; first off, you are the wrong gender, and second, your are probably older than 12.
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« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2006, 10:40:00 PM »

Why? Trying to make yourself more attractive for the priest? No chance; first off, you are the wrong gender, and second, your are probably older than 12.

That is so offensive and lame. You want to knock Catholic Priests - go ahead.

Tom, you are too intelligent for stupid posts like this. You know that and I know that.

You tell me to get "over myself"?  Rise above yourself then Dear Tom and know which battles are worth taking on and which ones are simply exposing your inability to have an authourity in your life higher than YOU.
The world does not and hopefully never will consider your golden nuggets of misinformation to be worth much.
I will continue to agonize you by "pouring hot coals on your head...

By praying for you each day- because you hate that thought don't you Tom?

You have so much hate in your heart it saddens me, hope that made your day, and sadly I bet it does.

You sicken me with your posts. you should make up your own "religion" according to Tom.

I choke thinking about what your creed would be.

-----------------------------------------------------

O saving Victim, open wide
The gate of Heav'n to us below,
Our foes press on from every side;
Your aid supply, your strength bestow.
To your great name be endless praise,
Immortal Godhead, One in Three;
O grant us endless length of days
In our true native land with thee.
Amen.

O salutaris Hostia
Quae caeli pandis ostium:
Bella premount hostilia,
Da robur, fer auxilium.

Uni tinoque Domino
Sit sempiterna gloria,
Qui vitam sine termino
Nobis donet in patria.
Amen.

May the blessings of Jesus be upon your hard heartend soul.

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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2006, 11:19:58 PM »

I liked the blonde comment!   Grin

I always did have a thing for blondes though....anyway....

Yah, if you make them feel smart then they will always open up and say things that they may usually be reserved about revealing.  Its unfortunate, but true. 

Just keep asking questions.  If at any point he's like "because the Vatican said so" or something like that, say "where does the Vatican say that, can you give me a reference?" 
If he can't right away, go back to his office and ask for it.  Persistence is the key. 

Just some more thoughts... Wink

Actually now that I thought about it, have your little daughter do the talking, it may work better   Wink
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« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2006, 12:13:17 AM »

Hook, line, and sinker...
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« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2006, 12:16:13 AM »

I liked the blonde comment!  ÃƒÆ’‚ Grin

I always did have a thing for blondes though....anyway....

Yah, if you make them feel smart then they will always open up and say things that they may usually be reserved about revealing.ÂÂ  Its unfortunate, but true.ÂÂ  

Just keep asking questions.ÂÂ  If at any point he's like "because the Vatican said so" or something like that, say "where does the Vatican say that, can you give me a reference?"ÂÂ  
If he can't right away, go back to his office and ask for it.ÂÂ  Persistence is the key.ÂÂ  

Just some more thoughts... Wink

Actually now that I thought about it, have your little daughter do the talking, it may work better  ÃƒÆ’‚ Wink

You crack me up!
I agree a 3 year old can figure this one out!!! Grin
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« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2006, 09:42:07 AM »

Hook, line, and sinker...

 Cheesy Grin

It's so easy.

You'd think by now, people would just read my comment and move on.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 09:43:25 AM by TomS » Logged
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« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2006, 03:21:19 PM »

I think some of us actually want to participate in fruitful dialogue. 

Anyway, i'm wondering if Dismus managed to talk to her priest about these issues yet.  hint hint... Wink
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« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2006, 04:18:16 PM »

Cheesy Grin

It's so easy.

You'd think by now, people would just read my comment and move on.

Yeh, it took me about 1000 posts to figure out your schtick.
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« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2006, 03:59:19 PM »

In the early Church (in some areas anyway) they sometimes took it home with them. Imagine the evil possibilities! Seriously, your holy book says that people were sick and even dying because they partook of communion unworthily. If someone does something bad with the eucharist, he'll make sure they have what's coming to them.
This was and still is aloud!!! Special Eucharistic ministers are trained to take the Eucharist home to the sick. But that is their job and they know what they are doing. Priest also take the Eucharist to the sick and dying.
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« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2006, 10:03:39 PM »

This was and still is aloud!!! Special Eucharistic ministers are trained to take the Eucharist home to the sick. But that is their job and they know what they are doing. Priest also take the Eucharist to the sick and dying.

Yes. Our "Special Eucharistic ministers" are called "priests".  Wink
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