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Author Topic: America is a "Christian nation"  (Read 3917 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 07, 2006, 01:51:03 PM »

It is rather bothersome the amount of people who claim to be Christian and do not know the most basic of Biblical teachings. Don't tell me that since you are Orthodox, you don't need the Bible. The Orthodox Church wrote the Bible.
Probably what bothers me the most is that if you rebuke your neighbor, just as the New Testament mandates so that we may instruct each other toward righteousness, you are automatically judging the person rather than correcting the behavior, and therefore are the bad guy. Truthfully, the best friend is the one who is willing to tell you the truth, even when it hurts.
There are one too many young people (and probably even in the older adult population) out there who would rather be treated like a sex object, and have someone try to get into their pants, rather than hear that there are much more important things to life, and that they are worth more as human beings. If God has a plan for us all, when will America learn?

Peace.
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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2006, 02:11:50 PM »

Teaching in the public school system (and it is a good one, though cracks are there), I am all too familiar with what passes for the "Christian" lifestyle among my students.  They profess to believe in higher moral callings as Christ and the NT call for, but  merely give them lip service since their own actions are a betrayal.  This is typical though of Western Christianity in general where belief and profession of that belief is all that is needed and there is no need to act and live out those things held by the mind and the heart.  I wish I could say the Orthodox were immune to this, but we are not.  Of course, this is the very nature of what sin is--missing the mark. 

Approximately 77%  (approximately 220 million) of Americans consider themselves Christians, falling into RC, EO, OO and some 20,000 Protestant versions out there.  THe principal of the school attached to the church where I was brought up always used to say, "If Christianity was made illegal, would there be enough evidence to put you away?"  I wonder how many of that 210 million would actually be locked up.

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« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2006, 02:14:50 PM »

Being Christian in name only is a substantial problem in this country; I dont know how many people I've come across who claim to be Christian, yet are so full of pride and self-righteousness they make the Pharisees look like humble saints. The Judgementalism and Self-Righteousness amongst so-called Christians is astonishing, can you believe these people???
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« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2006, 02:21:02 PM »

 Cheesy
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« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2006, 02:48:38 PM »

There are one too many young people (and probably even in the older adult population) out there who would rather be treated like a sex object, and have someone try to get into their pants, rather than hear that there are much more important things to life, and that they are worth more as human beings.

LOL.  Unfortunetely this is true.  I have a hard time believing that 77% of the population are actual Christians.  I'd be inclined to state that the majority are not real Christians but describe themselves as "Christian" because no other label is more descriptive.  Christian "in culture" or "heritage".  I'd agree though, that in most ways Western culture is inimical and antagonistic towards living an Orthodox lifestyle.
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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2006, 03:12:55 PM »

Being Christian in name only is a substantial problem in this country; I dont know how many people I've come across who claim to be Christian, yet are so full of pride and self-righteousness they make the Pharisees look like humble saints. The Judgementalism and Self-Righteousness amongst so-called Christians is astonishing, can you believe these people???

I believe the origin of this type of mind set stems from the unification of church and state. Not in a literal sense but in a rational sense. Many Christians have incroperated their day lives of satisfying man with Christianity. They have formed there own type of Religion. They are trying to appease both Christ and man. These type of people can biblically be called not cold or hot. They try to balance there everyday lives to please both heaven and earth. Sadly, Christ goes on to say that he will spew them from his mouth.
 ÃƒÆ’‚ It's very sad because many good people have fallen victim to western culture. I myself am sometimes guilty of it. My biggest concern is living in these surroundings. Because they can do great harm to ones soul. The culture fully surrounds you at all times. It's very hard to find a quite place where one can isolate themselves from it. That is why we must continue to pray and separate ourselves from this world.
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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2006, 03:47:16 PM »

Being Christian in name only is a substantial problem in this country; I dont know how many people I've come across who claim to be Christian, yet are so full of pride and self-righteousness they make the Pharisees look like humble saints. The Judgementalism and Self-Righteousness amongst so-called Christians is astonishing, can you believe these people???

Here we go again. Is it a "problem" limited to America?
Can't we say that no matter WHAT brand of Christianity one follows in any country you will find this to be the problem?
I want to see some stats and demographics here. Otherwise, this is only another weak attempt to bring politics into a conversation that has the false premise of being non-political.
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« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2006, 03:50:57 PM »

It is rather bothersome the amount of people who claim to be Christian and do not know the most basic of Biblical teachings. Don't tell me that since you are Orthodox, you don't need the Bible. The Orthodox Church wrote the Bible.
Probably what bothers me the most is that if you rebuke your neighbor, just as the New Testament mandates so that we may instruct each other toward righteousness, you are automatically judging the person rather than correcting the behavior, and therefore are the bad guy. Truthfully, the best friend is the one who is willing to tell you the truth, even when it hurts.
There are one too many young people (and probably even in the older adult population) out there who would rather be treated like a sex object, and have someone try to get into their pants, rather than hear that there are much more important things to life, and that they are worth more as human beings. If God has a plan for us all, when will America learn?

Peace.

Why limit your concern to America? Do you have proof that America is most lacking?
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« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2006, 04:06:13 PM »

I believe the origin of this type of mind set stems from the unification of church and state. Not in a literal sense but in a rational sense. Many Christians have incroperated their day lives of satisfying man with Christianity. They have formed there own type of Religion. They are trying to appease both Christ and man. These type of people can biblically be called not cold or hot. They try to balance there everyday lives to please both heaven and earth. Sadly, Christ goes on to say that he will spew them from his mouth.
 ÃƒÆ’‚ It's very sad because many good people have fallen victim to western culture. I myself am sometimes guilty of it. My biggest concern is living in these surroundings. Because they can do great harm to ones soul. The culture fully surrounds you at all times. It's very hard to find a quite place where one can isolate themselves from it. That is why we must continue to pray and separate ourselves from this world.

Definently. I think what we're seeing here is another example of why Church and State must be seperated. We saw this in Russia in the 18th century, with the reforms of Peter "The Great" (I beg to differ) and how he essentially made the Church a branch of the government. Then the Church is subjugated under the worldliness of the government, and the errs of the politicians.

In America, it could never be worse. These Christian hypocrites attempt to marry together the humanistic deism that founded this country and traditional Christian values. But in all the cases that I've seen, the former wins ultimately.

And yes, I think most of us Orthodox here in America can be labeled guilty of falling victim to the prevalent humanism of American Western culture. Maybe we should start forming coenobitic communities and go Amish Tongue?

I guess we can just use these examples of history and present situations to help show us what to do and make of the current world stage. I have a twosphere theory of the world. I suppose it could be labeled rather dualistic or whatever. One is the Church and the other is national government. I personally feel that the national government can do whatever it wants. I do not feel that us Orthodox need to go out and establish some fundmentalist theocracy like most evangelicals do today. Instead, I think that we can remain unafflicted by the government's influence and still be active within it for the sake of the church, by merely going to the masses. The approach to lobby congress to pass this pro-life law or anti-gay-marriage law, I think, carries major flaws. But we can show them the Light of the Church by just sharing Orthodoxy with them. This is where the sphere of Church comes in. Like I said, we can remain active within the gov't without making it a theocratic pet of ours. The Church is our first government - Christ is our first King. Yes we may have different social opinions with those in the secular realm, but here is the Church - this is what we believe. You can choose to accept it, or go with the ways of the world. Listen to what we have to say, but we're not going to make it a law. It's choice, it's free-will. Hope that all made sense, lol.

We are not here to dictate what the world is to say or do. That would contradict the central ascetic struggle of Orthodox Christianity. But we are here to serve as a Light for the World. Share, but do not force. Serve, but do not ask. I like to heed the words of the angel in Apocalypse:

11 He that hurteth, let him hurt still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is just, let him be justified still: and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still. Apoc 22:11

We should all be concerned more with our salvation in Christ then the worldly woes of washington politicians. Perhaps this is what we can keep in mind when we struggle day to day against the ominous force of secularism.

Peace,
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« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2006, 04:44:18 PM »

The Judgementalism and Self-Righteousness amongst so-called Christians is astonishing, can you believe these people???

There is a difference between judging the person and rebuking behavior.

Luke 17:3
Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

Eph 5:11ÂÂ  
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them].

2Ti 2:24ÂÂ  And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25ÂÂ  In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Ti 2:26ÂÂ  And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

James 5
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

John 7
24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.

It is a responsibility that we have as Christians to gently rebuke each other when we go astray. That is not self-righteousness, that is leading each other toward righteousness. Have you ever done something really stupid, and then wished you had someone to have shown you the error in your decision?

Peace.
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« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2006, 04:46:36 PM »

Is it a "problem" limited to America?

No, but we are a nation that prides ourselves on having a "Christian heritage."
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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2006, 04:47:08 PM »

Matthew,

You're not addressing GiC's point, just as he was making no attempt to address yours.  He is right - there are far too many "Christians" who are self-righteous and judgemental.  And you are right, there are some who genuinely are trying to correct their brother, but no heed is paid.
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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2006, 04:53:23 PM »

ÂÂ  He is right - there are far too many "Christians" who are self-righteous and judgemental.ÂÂ  And you are right, there are some who genuinely are trying to correct their brother, but no heed is paid.

People need to know the difference between rebuking the action and judging the person. We can't afford to be self-righteous, the battle we are fighting is much too serious.
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« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2006, 05:03:07 PM »

People today do not want to be corrected or ebukes. They want their ears tickled. Truthfully, I know people that I would trust to correct me, but would they do it. People want others to like them.

This is a good topic

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« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2006, 06:03:22 PM »

Quote
No, but we are a nation that prides ourselves on having a "Christian heritage."

That bit of fiction is where the problem begins! Wink

Quote
People need to know the difference between rebuking the action and judging the person.

I'd say about half the Orthodox stuff I've read that deal with the subject say not to judge at all, even to correct someone's action. If you read the Sayings of the Desert Fathers, for example, you'll see how many old men refused to correct others under any circumstances. To do so, according to these Saints, is 1) to presume that you are able to take on the responsibility of teacher, and 2) to presume that you have cast the speck from your own eye already. Those are two presumptions that many Saints considered dangerous ones to make. Then again, common sense dictates that you should make the type of distinction that you are making, as well as some Saints IMO (e.g., John Climacus). So maybe you were right after all, just pick and choose which Fathers you want to follow, and rebuke those who hold to opposing positions. It's nice to not feel caught between contradictory traditions. Carry on. Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2006, 06:08:55 PM »

I'd say about half the Orthodox stuff I've read that deal with the subject say not to judge at all, even to correct someone's action.

What do the Scriptures say on this matter? Is it love to let someone continue on the wrong path, and then watch him fall? Or is it love to tell someone that their behavior is in error, without using pride or self-righteousness in doing so? Whatever shows the most honest love is what I intend to do, and what I'd expect others to do for me.

Peace.
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« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2006, 06:26:13 PM »

Of course, Loving correction requires that one have corrected their own errors first... Otherwise we condemn ourselves in hypocrasy.
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« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2006, 06:39:43 PM »

Of course, Loving correction requires that one have corrected their own errors first... Otherwise we condemn ourselves in hypocrasy.

Yes, that is very true. You cannot correct someone for something that you yourself are doing.
What people need to realize is that this is a positive, not a negative thing to do, or at least should be. 
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« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2006, 06:54:37 PM »

No, but we are a nation that prides ourselves on having a "Christian heritage."

That is a charge of hypocrisy no?
Well I guess a lot of other countries are lucky to have never started with that premise to begin with to be self rightous about their beginings of paganism or worse.

This is a ridiculous reason. You may consider them heterodox, but that makes it no better.
Can any faith let alone a country make their adherents submit?
maybe muslims.......
FREE WILL.
You can be the biggest sinner in the world here by YOUR own free will.
Big, bad America did not make you do it.
YOUR sins are YOUR responsibility.
America is not going to be judged on judgement day.
Your condemnations however, might.....
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« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2006, 07:01:09 PM »

Your condemnations however, might.....

I have not condemned any person, we've been over this distinction. America needs to change, or else our empire will fall. That change must begin with every one of us.
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« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2006, 07:05:26 PM »

I have not seen one single poster here other than Psalti Boy seem to not have such a bone to pick with America since I started posting here.
America on someone's 4th of July post was ignored by all but me it seemed, and I asked "am I the only one here who likes America?"
I don't like this so- called Christian attitude here.
The log out of one's own eye is used and abused here all the time.
This is a cheap attempt at knocking America once again.
I ask for stats, get none.
The only ridiculous response is that it was a "fiction" that America was founded on the basis of Christianity.
You are the most bitter people I have ever met.
You most likely have more Orthodox attending Liturgy here in the states than in Greece or Russia. I don't know. You have to come up with some proof to your accusations.
America has been your whipping boy on too many posts.
One is too many.
I am starting to think Orthodox talk about theosis but don't have a clue about how it works.
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« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2006, 07:12:51 PM »

I have not seen one single poster here other than Psalti Boy seem to not have such a bone to pick with America since I started posting here.

Every era has an empire, a dominating world power that transgresses the law of God within and outside of its borders. Every empire inevitably falls. The good knews is that if we as individuals shine as a light to the world, perhaps our world can change. That cannot happen if we ignore each other's sin. It takes real love and courage to tell each other the truth. I don't want someone to slap me on the back when I'm wrong, and neither should anyone else.
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« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2006, 07:24:44 PM »

Every era has an empire, a dominating world power that transgresses the law of God within and outside of its borders. Every empire inevitably falls. The good knews is that if we as individuals shine as a light to the world, perhaps our world can change. That cannot happen if we ignore each other's sin. It takes real love and courage to tell each other the truth. I don't want someone to slap me on the back when I'm wrong, and neither should anyone else.

This so-called reply leaves me speachless. I had to re-read it since I thought Mumin posted it.
Give me a break!
You are predicting America's fall?
are you a false prophet?
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« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2006, 07:36:36 PM »

Every empire falls. It's a fact of life.
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« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2006, 07:42:48 PM »

If the USA should come for such heavy criticism, then I cannot wonder what might fall upon the UK which is arguably Europe's most secular state. For not a few here being a Christian appears according to their words, a matter of being 'nice'. The level of knowledge of the Bible is often zilch, and as to Christ's mission and purpose don't ask.

Surely for a country to be a truly Christian one, it is not enough that a majority of its' population claims to be Christian, or that its' roots are Christian but its' governance reflects this Faith?
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« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2006, 07:44:22 PM »

You know, Matthew, to those who live outside the US our constant complaints about our nation may seem ungrateful for the good life we have.  And most other nations have the same social problems that we do (i.e. the supposed "moral depravity" and whatnot).  Don't lament the change that the nation needs, lament the change that each individual in the world needs - we all need to grow closer to Christ.
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« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2006, 07:46:42 PM »

Matthew - "every empire falls, it's a fact of life" is a logical fallacy dude.  You don't know the future any more than anyone else.  Don't use it in this discussion.  The past cannot predict the future, despite our aphorisms and such that suggest that it can.  I only bring this up because it seems to be a major point of your argument - that America is destined to fall, especially if it stays decadent.
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« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2006, 08:34:25 PM »

I have not seen one single poster here other than Psalti Boy seem to not have such a bone to pick with America since I started posting here.

Really?  See Kansas City`s posts` in both the Mel Gibson thread and the  current thread in politics " Criticising America"
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« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2006, 08:47:18 PM »

I think Dismus was saying that Psalti Boy is the only one he's found that hasn't bitched about the US...

He hasn't seen any poster other than PB that seems to not have such a bone to pick... PB is the only one who "not" has a bone to pick.
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« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2006, 08:56:14 PM »

You are the most bitter people I have ever met.
Dismus,
Welcome to the Orthodox Church!  We are bitter, I think from too much fasting, long services, and hatred for what we see as the world as opposed to the church.  There is little joy and laughter - God doesn't like that.  So much for Jesus saying, "I came that they may have life and have it abundently."  Look at the posts here, very little love or respect for others (especially those not Orthodox!)  How many posts about the evils of homosexuality? Etc., etc., etc!  As an old Russian priest told me years ago, "The right faith but the wrong people!"
Sorry for ranting folks but here we have someone looking at the Orthodox faith and this is the impression we on this board are giving them.
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« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2006, 09:01:51 PM »

When I was a youngster, we used to have a liturgy and moliben on July 4th every year.
This year on the Sunday before July 4th, I attended a Greek Orthodox Church.  After Liturgy, the American Flag was brought to the Ambon and the priest celebrated a Lity.  When he finished, he led the congregation in singing the National Anthem, followed by 5-6 American Patriotic songs.  It was very moving and by the end, there was not a dry eye in the church.
God Bless America!
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« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2006, 09:14:43 PM »

You know, Matthew, to those who live outside the US our constant complaints about our nation may seem ungrateful for the good life we have.ÂÂ

Our lives me be good in terms of material wealth and prosperity, but are they good in terms of righteousness? Our founding fathers wanted our nation to shine as a light to the rest of the world, and we need godliness to do that.
I am not a righteous person, but I desperately want to change. If you compared me today to who I was two years ago or even a year ago, you'd see a considerably different person. I lament for my country, because I don't want us to fall.
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« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2006, 09:16:09 PM »

I only bring this up because it seems to be a major point of your argument - that America is destined to fall, especially if it stays decadent.

Please forgive the cliche, but if we don't learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it.
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« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2006, 09:28:31 PM »

Look everyone,
I know you are all good people. I am sorry if you get the impression that I am throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.
I really enjoy all the comments and have learned a lot here.
It's just that I happen to see this in a different light.
Carpathio- that was a great refreshing post and I will keep that in mind before I get the wrong impression of Orthodox believers here.
Cleaveland seems to get me even when I don't use the right words.

Except, I am a woman, with a 3 year old daughter who is the light of my life.

I am sorry to hear that Kansas City is going on with his tirade, but in America you can do that. So be it. That does not mean I have to like it.

I will continue to feel positive about the faith in spite of this as I know that this attitude is hopefully not the prevalant one in Orthodoxy, but a minor sampling of opinion that has nothing to do with the faith.

In Christ,
Dismus





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« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2006, 10:00:27 PM »

Matthew, I know the value of the cliche and how pertinent it can be.  But your argument that America will fall because it is a decadent society like that of Rome, late "Byzantium" and others is illogical - just because something has happened in the past doesn't mean it will happen to the future; odds can never predict.  I don't want to continue this, since this is way too close to Am-Politics, which has its own board.
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« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2006, 11:49:38 PM »

Anyways, my main point still stands. Let your neighbor rebuke you, if you are really in the wrong and he does so respectfully.

Peace.
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« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2006, 02:44:40 AM »


I am sorry to hear that Kansas City is going on with his tirade, but in America you can do that. So be it. That does not mean I have to like it.

What are you talking about?

Talk to mo the ethio. He's got the bone to pick.  My 'tirade' never existed. I made one vague, reactionary comment that was misinterpreted and expanded upon for me. Many times over.  Don't give a veiled, unnecessary apology for me regarding a conversation you've obviously not followed.
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« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2006, 02:55:24 AM »

he led the congregation in singing the National Anthem, followed by 5-6 American Patriotic songs.ÂÂ  It was very moving and by the end, there was not a dry eye in the church.
God Bless America!

They do that at St. Sophia in Albany, NY also.
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« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2006, 03:08:57 AM »

I have not seen one single poster here other than Psalti Boy seem to not have such a bone to pick with America since I started posting here.

I have told my fellow Greeks from the other side, who complained about America while making a great living here, many times that I would buy them the ticket to go back.ÂÂ  And this goes all the way back to the 70s.ÂÂ  I have also advocated, for closed borders until we have everyone already here fed, working and housed.ÂÂ  Those are not popular opinions with immigrants, but that's how I feel.ÂÂ  Like they say "America . . . love it or leave it".
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« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2006, 03:40:02 AM »

just because something has happened in the past doesn't mean it will happen to the future; odds can never predict. 
Actually Cleveland here's an interesting fact.  Several years ago I took part in a national study in "Predicting Future Behaviour". Psychologists were pitted against Statisticians to see who could best predict people's future behaviour. It was actually the Statisticians who much more accurately predicted future behaviour, and all they based their predictions on was frequency of past behaviour. The Psychologists, who took in to account qualitative data and learning were actually less accurate at predicting future behaviour. The conclusion of the study was that "The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour."
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« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2006, 07:27:05 AM »

George,

Of course statistics are a great predictor.  The fallacy is in thinking that they will always predict.

For example: let's say that you perform an experiment where you introduce a new bacterium to a human population.  The population adapts to the bacterium 999 times out of the 1000 runs of this experiment that you do; that 1 other time, many people die from the bacterium.  Even though the odds say that if you run the experiment 100 more times the population should adapt 99-100 of those 100 tries, it can't actually state that with any certainty... what may end up happening is that 75 times the people adapt, and 25 times they die.  I personally love statistics (I did very well in my Behavioral Science Stats class) and have run stats on everything from my work productivity to my posting rate in Excel; but, unfortunately, one cannot with 100% accuracy predict the future based on statistics or previous behavior - so there is nothing set in stone, even if the "odds" are 100 to 0.
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« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2006, 02:29:32 PM »

George,

Of course statistics are a great predictor.ÂÂ  The fallacy is in thinking that they will always predict.

For example: let's say that you perform an experiment where you introduce a new bacterium to a human population.ÂÂ  The population adapts to the bacterium 999 times out of the 1000 runs of this experiment that you do; that 1 other time, many people die from the bacterium.ÂÂ  Even though the odds say that if you run the experiment 100 more times the population should adapt 99-100 of those 100 tries, it can't actually state that with any certainty... what may end up happening is that 75 times the people adapt, and 25 times they die.ÂÂ  I personally love statistics (I did very well in my Behavioral Science Stats class) and have run stats on everything from my work productivity to my posting rate in Excel; but, unfortunately, one cannot with 100% accuracy predict the future based on statistics or previous behavior - so there is nothing set in stone, even if the "odds" are 100 to 0.

That small error is what you call 'acceptable risk.' Yeah, things may screw up, but the potential for gain far outweighs the potential for risk.
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« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2006, 02:34:40 PM »

Of course, in this case we are talking about using the very informal statistic "every world superpower that was decadent fell" or "every empire falls" to predict what will happen to America... which is very different.  For one, I don't know if the sample size that was used to determine the tendency is large enough to be considered statistically reliable (depending on the test, your sample size needs to be 25-30 or more).  Two, is the change in the nature of "empires" taken into account?
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« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2006, 03:00:19 PM »

For one, I don't know if the sample size that was used to determine the tendency is large enough to be considered statistically reliable (depending on the test, your sample size needs to be 25-30 or more).ÂÂ
That is just the academic point between using a "Student-T" distribution vs a Normal Distribution...of which both assume data is quantifiable and somehow bell-shaped looking.  I don't think the data points that make up the failures of world empires really even come close to qualifying.
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« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2006, 03:18:26 PM »

Is there even the most remote of possibilities that we can say that since America is one Nation under God, and since God sees that the glory of whatever is good about this Nation is accredited to him as the intent was certainly not to accredit bad to him, that maybe we can speculate that God will intervene on behalf of the Nation that attempts to do right and gives him the honor of being an intregal part of the founding of this Nation.
In other words even in Church we all claim to give honor and glory to God, but we individually do not live up to that claim at all times.
Would that mean that the Church has failed? And the gates of hell will prevail?
As we are a community of believers are we not constantly in a state of failure?
So, America has a community of people that do not have to be Christian to be American.
America makes no claim that Americans are all Christians.
So, the OP's premise in the title is not correct to begin with.
America makes no claim to being a Christian nation.
There may be numbers that assert the majority of Americans are Christian.
But, then we have to look at who is calling themselves Christian.
The fact is the analogy that America must be held to a higher standard of Christianity than any other country based on the founding fathers calling it one Nation under God makes no sense to me.
This Nation is beneath God and his Kingdom, not above it. Not equal to it.
Not in competition with it. 
And should not be judged for being guilty of something it makes no claim to be.
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« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2006, 10:11:25 AM »

Elisha - good points.  I haven't brushed up on my stats in awhile.
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« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2006, 11:10:48 AM »

Elisha - good points.  I haven't brushed up on my stats in awhile.

Sure.  Additionally, one of my stats profs back in college said that that a sample size of 2 was fine (or multiple samples of n = 2) for a population that was shown to be normally distributed.
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« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2006, 12:14:35 PM »

Of course, can we say that the assertion "all empires will fall" or "all decadent empires will fall" has a) a normal distribution, or b) a sample size large enough to make the claims significant?
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