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Author Topic: A question for the Ethiopean Orthodox  (Read 3346 times) Average Rating: 0
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Macarius
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« on: August 03, 2006, 11:44:39 PM »


 It is well knwon that the Pope of Alexandria used to ordain a Coptic Metropolitan for the Ethiopean Church till the previous Pope Kyrols Ordained a Patriarch for Ethiopea and from that moment the Ethiopean Church became independent Church , so the Ethiopeans still consider the Pope of Alexandria is the head of their church or consider him in a honor place , do you mention him in your liturgy ?? .. i read the protocol between the Coptic and Eritrean Churches and it state that the Eritrean should mention the Alexandrian pope in their liturgy before their own Patriarch , you still consider the Alexandrian Coptic ORthodox church as the mother Church ??
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« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2006, 03:27:28 PM »

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so the Ethiopeans still consider the Pope of Alexandria is the head of their church or consider him in a honor place , do you mention him in your liturgy ??

No, we do not.
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The Arc of the Covenant Axum, Ethiopia
Amdetsion
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HH Abuna Pawlos - Patriarch of Ethiopia


« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2006, 01:59:37 AM »

Macarius

Haili's simple know is a little short on clarity.

Let me Add:

The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahado Church is and has always been an independent community among all other communities of the Universal Apostolic Church from the Apostolic era.

The First reach of the Apostolic mission beyond the Israelites were the Ethiopians via St. Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch (Acts:Ch Cool. Ethiopians were present at the Pentecost (Read the writings of St. Dioscorus).

The point here is their is nothing new to the fact that Christianity is ancient among the Ethiopians.

What is at hand is why Egypt held bisphoric for herself and Ethiopia?

I have read this:

Egypt is the true See of St. Mark and as such her chief bishop or Patriarch is the true representative of the see of St. Mark. Ethiopia does not discredit this at all.

The Ethiopian Patriarch represents the See of St. Teklehimanot as was established by the Coptic Bishops when they administered over the Ethiopian Church. Thus the Ethiopian Patriarch has under his jurisdiction the whole See and has no other head in this See. He is supreme head of the Church of Ethiopia and the Arch Bishop of Axum.


It is not clear to me but it seems that it is thought that since the Coptic Arch Bishops who held administration over the See of St. Teklehimanot 'answered' to the Coptic Patriarch in Alexandria that the newly autocephalous Ethiopian Administration (1952 or their about) now with 'Ethiopian' Arch Bishops and thus the chief of the Arch Bishops...The Patriarch who now holds the See should keep the same tradition and answer to the Patriarch of Alexandria as was with the previous Coptic Arch Bishops of Axum.....Huh?

This my rough assumption...

It is kinda confusing; and some of the info is not clear or specific that I have read on the subject.

But I can say that the liturgy in the Ethiopian Church mentions the Patriarch of Ethiopia and all Arch Bishops, Bishops, Priests and Deacons world wide.

It is also important to note that the Ethiopian and Coptic Church enjoy a good relationship. Our members worship together without any problem.
The Coptic Church fathers are blessing and caring for Ethiopians abroad where Ethiopian Churches are not yet established or in a very small and growing condition.

The commandment to love one another and care for one another above ALL things is the greatest commandment and is the act of true righteousness. The Ethiopian and our Coptic brothers are one in this regard (thanks be to God).

This subject deserves prayer.
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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
Macarius
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« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2006, 03:54:12 AM »

But the Alexandrian Popes used to be the head of The Ethiopean Church for long time till our Pope Kyrols ordained a Patriarch for the Ethiopean Church . so at least the Alexandrian Pope should have the honor Place among the Ethiopean Church ,even if it is an independent Church  ... like the Eritrean Orthodox Church they mention the Alexandrian Pope in the Liturgy before their own Patriarch and they are independent Church .

in Egypt in my church there are alot of Ethiopeans who pray the liturgy with us , i saw them sometimes took off their shoes before they enter the church , is that an Ethiopean tradition , do all the Ethiopeans Orthodox do that ??
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HH Abuna Pawlos - Patriarch of Ethiopia


« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2006, 12:01:00 AM »

Macarius

Marhaba!

I want to ask you a silly question.

Who is the head of the Coptic Church?

It is of course His Holiness Pope Shenouda - Patriarch of Alexandria.

During Coptic liturgy I have not heard any other name mentioned before the Pope. And I have worshipped in many Coptic liturgies and parishes. If I by some slim chance missed it; what name would that be? St. Mark?

The point is that all the Orthodox communities recognize thier shepard with love and respect. All Orthodox communities pray for the whole Universal Church Apostolic and Orthodox in the Lord; including ALL Arch Bishops, Bishops, Priest and Deacons. The Key word here is 'ALL'.

How can ALL the Clergy (Arch Bishops and Patriarchs) be mentioned by name during a single liturgy?

The Oriental fathers in trhe north eastern United States celebrate together in one liturgy and one Alter at one time; once a year. ALL Patriarchs and clergies are mentioned by name. The order is not the same each year. Thus; Pope Shenouda is not mentioned first in this general setting either. Niether is Abuna Pawlos. (something to think about).

Mentioning His Holiness Pope Shenouda before His Holiness Abuna Pawlos Patriarch of Ethiopia during Ethiopian liturgy seems a little strange since the Ethiopian Patriarch is the shepard and spiritual head of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

I think I know what you mean??

However.....

Are you thinking that the Ethiopians have to revere the Coptic Pope like the Roman Catholic Pope feels ALL Christianity must revere him as supreme head and vicar of Christ on earth?

I Love Pope Shenouda and the Coptic Church community. The Coptic liturgy is very embracing. I have learned some Coptic and my father confessor is a Coptic Priest. I love all Orthodoxy and all the Hierarchs on equal terms.

I do not get the impression that there is a real issue of 'who should be mentioned or be revered over the other' between our communities. Pope Shenouda appears to be very a very humble servant and may probably care less about who is mentioned when. I believe the same for our beloved Patriarch Abuna Pawlos.

Let us enjoy the common ground we share....AFRICA and our common faith Orthodox Chirstianity. Our Patriarchs will handle whatever differences they may have with each other with Gods guidance.

Ethiopians always remove our shoes before entering a church building; particularly the sanctuary. That is common. Some of us have fallen away in America as would be expected. But this is a rare situation still.

The reason is Gods command to Moses to remove his shoes "for this is Holy ground". Ethiopia has a very ancient and deep seated connection to the old testament world. If you read the old testament you will find many, many direct and indirect references to Ethiopia and Ethiopians. You can read in the book of Amos God speaking with great rebuke to Israel stating to them "are ye not a people unto me as the children of the Ethiopians are O' Israel" (Amos C9, V7).
In effect identifying Ethiopians as a Chosen people; or at the very lease an examplary people toward God in a way that even the chosen people (Israel) was not.

Thus much of Ethiopian civilization bare on old testament. Not by a modern day adoption but due to a real, ancient connection with the Hebrew world.

Also Ethiopia having never suffered the European rape of Africa (thanks be to God) and having only experienced small pulses of Arabic/Islamic incursions. Such incursions were short lived leaving the existing Ethiopian traditions unchanged or affected.

It is important to note that "Ethiopia" (Kush) as we know it today is only a small remaining geographical representation of the once vastly larger empire known to the ancients; including the ancient Egyptians (or KMT (pronounced Kemet) as they referred to themselves...the word Egypt is Greek; so is the word Ethiopia).

I hope that I have helped.

May the Holy Virgin Mary Mother of God pray for us all and intercede in our behalf to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins....Amen
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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
EkhristosAnesti
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« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2006, 12:11:56 AM »

I agree with Amdetsion; let us not make a fuss about who is mentioned first and what-not. His Holiness Pope Shenouda III is neither viewed as the "Supreme Pontiff" nor as the "Ecumenical Patriarch", and thank God for that. We do not want such politics in our Church, especially considering the potentially grave consequences of such politics as evidenced in the history of the Church.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2006, 12:12:39 AM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

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Macarius
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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2006, 02:08:19 PM »

I didn' ask the Ethiopeans to mention the Alexandrian Pope in the Liturgy .... i just wonder what about his position now among the Ethiopeans after he was the head of their church for very long time !!!
also i would like to ask about the opinion of our Ethiopean brothers about the Eritrean Orthodox Church ... i read that they became angry because our Pope ordained a Patriarch for them , is that true
+ By the Way the Eritrean Orthodox still considering the Alexandrian Pope in the first honor place and mention him before their Patriarch , that is due to the protcol between the 2 churches
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We believe that our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Logos, is perfect in His Divinity and perfect in His Humanity. He made His Humanity One with His Divinity without Mixture, nor Mingling, nor Confusion. we Anathematize the Doctrines of both Nestorius and Eutyches
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HH Abuna Pawlos - Patriarch of Ethiopia


« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2006, 09:49:30 PM »

Macarius

How are you?

Regarding your first questions

Our first Patriarch was Abuna Basilios concecrated by the Pope of Alexandria His Eminence Abuna Kerylios in the late 1940's. This was done out of the request and prayers of the late Emperor Haili Sallassie - Emporer of Ethiopia, Defender of The Faith, King of Kings, Govenor of Govenors, Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah. This was his full title....

Thanks to the grace of God through the blessing of the Holy Spirit the Emporers request was fulfilled.

The Ethiopian Church became "autocephalous". This is not to be confused with the term "independant" since NO Orthodox Church community is really "independent" we are together the One Holy Universal Apostolic Church founded by Our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ with His own precious Body and Precious Blood..Amein.

"Autocephalous" implies to operate within local jurisdictional administration and governence. This is strictly therefore administrative in nature. The Church and its administration are one and as such the spiritual matters regarding the faith is also included in this "local governance". Thus Ethiopia elected and established its Holy Synod of Bishops to lead, direct and propogate the faith within its jurisdiction.

However; spiritual ties remain unchanged between the Coptic and Ethiopian communities. We are still one faith, one communion, one church with two local administrations with one head over each. Each head is equally holy, spiritual fathers and humble servants of the Lord and His Holy Church.

Ethiopians who are educated on this matter respect with great reverence the See of St. Mark. The See of St. mark is part of what we are ( St. Mark did not come to Africa strictly for the Egyptians but for all who loves the Lord and seek His mercy). So the sitting succesor of the See is also given great respect and is always in our prayers. This is the position I find among our most knowledgeable and well traveled members and clergy. I am not aware of any official postion. Those of us who are not so verse or have little exposure to the larger field of the Orthodox world may have a more local and closet "Ethiopia" view of everything and thus may have little thought for the bigger picture of what we are. We have major Saints for example that are of Syrian origin that some Ethiopians believe are Ethiopian. St. Abuna Aregawi is a good case and point.

Many Ethiopians found Eritreas exit from the Ethiopian Synod hurtful. We were happy that Abuna Pawlos blessed the change although we wanted them to stay.

Time heals and now we are begining to see the Eritrean Church as a Church community of its own which is one in faith with us. I have traveled far to worship in Eritrean Church services for special days. I love the service and find it very traditional "Ethiopian". It came to me after a special service at an Eritrean Church where which the Tabot was taken out in procession. I realized then that the true Ark in Ethiopia is what binds our communities. This was a healing moment for me. This issue needs prayer.

OH!...WE now have choir members who are from the Eritrean Church in our Ethiopian Church service.

Interestingly you can't tell us apart......we are all black, indiginous people of Africa and share a huge historical background and most importantly we are all Orthodox Christians...Thanks be to God.

I hope I have helped you here my brother.

Forgive any spelling or grammar errors. I was to lazy to re-read and spell check.

May the prayers of the Holy Virgin Mary Mother of God bring us into oneness in all things and ask for the forgiveness of our many sins...Amein.
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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
Macarius
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« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2006, 11:18:27 AM »

Thanks my brother AmdetsionÂÂ  

 God Bless you . .

 Is there any diffrence between the Eritrean Orthodox Church and the Ethiopean Orthodox Church Huh

this is a pics for Pope Kyrols the 116 Pope of Alexandria and all St. Mark see with Emperor Haili Sallassie - Emporer of Ethiopia

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i244/copticorthodoxy/church/225.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i244/copticorthodoxy/church/105.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i244/copticorthodoxy/church/235.jpg
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 11:20:42 AM by Macarius » Logged

We believe that our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Logos, is perfect in His Divinity and perfect in His Humanity. He made His Humanity One with His Divinity without Mixture, nor Mingling, nor Confusion. we Anathematize the Doctrines of both Nestorius and Eutyches
Amdetsion
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« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2006, 09:36:57 PM »

We have no real difference.

We are one and the same in faith, order and doctrine just as we are with The Coptic Church and the rest of the Orthodox world that is still standing in the faith and teachings of the Apostles.

For example sometimes you may have experienced visiting lets say a Syrian Church and participated in the liturgy. You will find marked differences in the service in comparison to what Coptics do in the liturgy. This difference is strictly Syrian "tradition" and not a different faith or religion.
But if an Ethiopian visits an Eritrean Church all the traditions are exactly the same with no difference. The Eritreans use more Geez and with better pronouciations then the Ethiopians in my opinion. For example We (Ethiopians) when we do the our Father prayer the services switches from Geez to Amharic. I have found thus far that the Eritreans when doing the our father prayer continue with Geez....IE: Abatachin Hoy (Amharic: Our Father), Abuna Ze-Besamiayot (Geez: Our father). You can see from this small example that the languages are very different.

Also the Eritreans are forming their own vestment "style" for lack of a better term to distinguish them from the Ethiopian "style". This is a process that I hope they get through soon. They still use traditional Ethiopian vestments in some instances.

These are again cultural and local traditional differences which I feel is O.K.; but we are the same in faith, order and doctrine as I mentioned.

Thanks for the pictures.

Macarius
I think you will benefit much from visiting an Ethiopian and Eritrean Church

May the prayers of the blessed and Holy Virgin Mary Mother of God be recieved in our behalf to her Son our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for remission of our many sins.
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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
Macarius
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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2006, 04:02:33 AM »

There is no Ethiopean , Eritrean Churches in Egypt .. because all the Ethiopeans and the Eritreans here pray in the Coptic Churches
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We believe that our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Logos, is perfect in His Divinity and perfect in His Humanity. He made His Humanity One with His Divinity without Mixture, nor Mingling, nor Confusion. we Anathematize the Doctrines of both Nestorius and Eutyches
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