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Author Topic: The Jews are no longer God's Chosen...  (Read 4459 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 03, 2006, 03:03:08 AM »

Seeing that one supposed Orthodox poster did not address the evidence I brought forth on why the Jews of today are no longer God's chosen people, I decided to start a new thread pertaining to the matter at hand. Here is what I said in the Mel Gibson thread in regards to who the 'real jews' are:

God's promise only extends to the Christian Church, not ethnic Jews or Israel for that matter. I'm surprised people espouse this view, seeing that it is found nowhere in church history. The only people that advocate such a view are dispensational protestant Christians. Lets take a look at Revelations 2:9-10 for a clarification as to who the 'true jews' are - "I know your afflictions and your poverty - yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer."

Keep in mind that at the time the biggest persecutor of the Christian Church were the Jews who were still claiming to be God's chosen people and the rightful heir to the promises of God. Christ says that these people who Claim to be "Jews" are in actuality imposter's who are really persecuting those who are the true Jews, those in the Christian Church. As a backdrop, In Mathew 24 Christ propechied the destruction of the temple within his generation - which in effect ends the old covenant Jewish faith because the temple was at the center of everything pertaining to the Jewish faith. Now, in Revelations these events are unfolding as the promises are "officially" shifting from the old covenant to new as the temple is physically destroyed and the Jews are killed or taken by the Roman Army. I believe that even in Luke 21 it says to the effect that not one stone from the temple will be laying upon another to show the devastating judgement Christ was going to bring to Israel. The temple was destroyed in AD 70, exactly one generation as Christ promised.

So, how can anyone today say that the Jews of today are still rightful heirs to the promises of God when they rejected the Messiah and were heavily judged for it in AD 70?
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« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2006, 03:40:00 AM »

If I may be so bold as to post my perhaps heretical personal opinion, I have always viewed the Jews as God's chosen people because the Truth had been and was to be revealed through them - that Truth being Jesus Christ, a Jew. Those Jews who reject(ed) the Messiah are(were) not among the chosen.

I even go further in my heretical musing and opine that the "taking" of believers at the end times so-often screwed up by the evangelicals with their Left Behind/Rapture ideas only refers to those Jews who DO repent.

You folks are welcomed to rip this apart.   Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2006, 03:46:42 AM »

I think a persuasive case can be made that the Jews never were the chosen people--if by "Jews" we mean a limited group of people defined by their genetics/origin. If you look at who actually came out of Egypt and entered the promise land, for example, the Bible clearly states that it was a "mixed multitude," not "God's ultra-pure Jewish stock, free of goyish riffraff". And many of the OT's important characters were either non-Jewish, or had no problem marrying people who were not genetically, purely "Jewish". I think the Jewishness present in the OT lends itself more to the ethnocentrism and nationalism necessary to survive in such a harsh environment, more than any God-ordained plan.
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« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2006, 03:55:14 AM »

Yes, the Jews have lost the distinction of being God's "chosen people" when they rejected Jesus Christ just as Ephraim and the rest of the northern tribes lost theirs when they succombed to idolatry centuries before the birth of Christ. ÂÂ

Moreover, authentic Jews would call their land "Judah". ÂÂ  The title "Israel" belongs to Ephraim and the Northern tribes. ÂÂ There's something not right when somebody claims to belong to the tribe of Judah (i.e., a Jew) and would want to call his land "Israel."

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« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2006, 09:10:49 AM »

Yes, I agree.  The Jews forfeited their claim as chosen when they rejected Christ as their Messiah.  No question in my mind.  Those Christians who are faithful are the new chosen by God.

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« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2006, 09:48:13 AM »

Moreover, authentic Jews would call their land "Judah".   The title "Israel" belongs to Ephraim and the Northern tribes.  There's something not right when somebody claims to belong to the tribe of Judah (i.e., a Jew) and would want to call his land "Israel."


After the Sack of Jerusalem at 70 AD the Roman Emperor Hadrian wanted to teach a lesson to the Jewish community that directly acted against their Occupiers by not paying tribute and worshipping the emperor, this was an act of rebellion. I believe it was Hadrian who renamed the regions of Judea into 'Palestine' a Greek cognate of 'the Phillistines'. Since they were an invading army from the South that fought King David. So too did the Romans wanted to eradicate anything Jewish in Jerusalem by setting up a pagan temple over the Second Temple's demolished site. As of today politically it is right that Palestine existed for 2000 years. But if people like Itamar Marcus who surveys 'Palestinian Media Watch' on Middle Eastern TV say that Palestine never existed, then he is over-exaggerating to emphasize Judaism's path. Palestine has existed politically for the peoples who lived their before 600 A.D. but Arabs had attached their identity as Palestinian. However I preferred title 'Judah' or 'Judea' and the original titles of Samaria and Galilee to be called rather than the State of Israel. Chances are, had their been a renaming of the city before the Arab Conquest this is what the Arabs would have labelled themselves.
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« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2006, 11:27:44 AM »

So, how can anyone today say that the Jews of today are still rightful heirs to the promises of God when they rejected the Messiah and were heavily judged for it in AD 70?

This post is going to be a long one, and for this I apologise, but this is a question to which no simple answer can be given.

If Israel had not rejected Christ, then Salvation would not have come to us, the Gentiles. Christ Himself said that He had come only for Israel. Remember His first two responses to the Gentile Canaanite woman who persistently begged Him to heal her possesed daughter:
"I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." and  "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs."
God made a promise to Israel, and God is Faithful to His promises. He said He would send the Messiah, and He did. He also said that  that a Faithful Remnant of Israel would be saved, and it was: the Apostles and Disciples were the Faithful remnant. And because Israel for the most part rejected Christ, a "partial blindness" (Romans 11:25) has fallen on Israel, and so Salvation has come to the Gentiles.
In the Matins of Great and Holy Friday, we chant:
Thus says the Lord to the Jews:                                     
My people, what have I done to you?                                 
Or how have I offended you?                                         
To your blind I gave sight. Your lepers I cleansed.                 
The paralytic I raised from his bed.                                 
My people, what have I done to you,                                 
and how have you repaid me?                                         
Instead of manna, gall. Instead of water, vinegar;                   
Instead of loving me, you nailed me to the Cross.                     
I can bear no more.                                                 
I shall call the Gentiles mine.
                                     
They will glorify me with the Father and the Spirit,             
And I shall give them Eternal Life.


Therefore, we, the Gentiles were accepted, because the Chosen people rejected Him Who was sent to them.
But should we gloat about this? Shouldn't we rather fear God, and love those who, because they were lost, we have been saved?
Salvation came to us Gentiles because of the Faithful Remnant of the Jews- let's never forget that. Not all Israel was lost- God kept His promise.
God did not revoke His promises to all of Israel; Israel rejected them, or rather, wanted them on their own terms and not God's. However, God's promise to them has not been revoked by God, it has merely been extended to include everyone, both Jew and Gentile who comes to believe in Jesus Christ; and the extension of this promise has come because Israel rejected Christ, leaving a Faithful Remnant who brought the Good News to us. Therefore, the Apostle says:
"Concerning the Gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:28-29).

The Church exists today because it's first members were a Faithful Remnant of Israel, and this Faithful Remnant of Israel therefore is the root and trunk of the Tree of the Church. And again, the Apostle says:
"For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? " (Romans 11:16-24)


So the answer is, God's promise to Israel is still there. It has not been revoked. But Israel rejected God's promises except for a Faithful Remnant. And because of their rejection, these promises have been extended to include all who believe in Jesus Christ, both Jew and Gentile- and the Good News of the extension of this promise was brought to us by the Faithful Remnant of Israel.

The Fathers taught that the Jews would one day accept the Promises and come to faith in Christ. Blessed Jerome of Stridona, in his Commentary on the Song of Songs says:
"Their sins occasioned the salvation of the Gentiles and again the incredulity of the Gentiles will occasion the conversion of Israel. You will find both in the Apostle."
In other words, just as salvation came to us, the Gentiles, because of the unbelief of the Jews, in a similar way, salvation will one day come to the Jews because of the unbelief of the Gentiles (i.e. the "Great Apostasy".) At that time,, the Gentiles will reject God's promises, and so the Jews will receive the Gospel. So let's not talk of the Jews "forfeiting their inheritance" as though we the Gentiles never will.
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« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2006, 12:21:42 PM »

If the Jews are not God's chosen, how are they able to endure even the worst of persecutions? I know that this may sound like a Protestant idea, but I've sometimes considered that while we are God's chosen by adoption, the Jews are His chosen by race. As Saint Paul wrote, the gift and the call of God are irrevocable.

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« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2006, 12:30:25 PM »

As Saint Paul wrote, the gift and the call of God are irrevocable.

And that's why the Jews still have the chance to come back to Israel through accepting faith in Christ.  God hasn't permanently shut them out of the Kingdom with no hope, but has still left the way out through the Messiah.

But unless and until they do that, they ain't ISRAEL.
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« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2006, 12:48:36 PM »

I believe that in it's infancy Christianity was a unitive 'Way' which served to bridge the division between Gentile God-Fearers and those under the grace of God's Coventant. I still believe that. I don't take Christianity, in the state that it has evolved, as a given. As the Apostle Paul said we were spliced in how easily we too could be removed. I don't see that only on the case of individuals but even traditions. I don't cling to 'tradition' as assurance because it is not necessarily 'of God' and thus in and of itself presents us with no assurance. What fate awaits the Jews of our modern day I leave to the Providence of God and don't seek to seize the title Israel for myself but simply fear God and hope in participation in His Providence through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I don't question the Coventant of God toward any whom He claims as His own. Remember the Jews weren't His Choosen People because of anything they did or were it was because God choose 'them'. I don't believe His Coventant is mutible.

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« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2006, 01:01:06 PM »


So the answer is, God's promise to Israel is still there. It has not been revoked. But Israel rejected God's promises except for a Faithful Remnant. And because of their rejection, these promises have been extended to include all who believe in Jesus Christ, both Jew and Gentile- and the Good News of the extension of this promise was brought to us by the Faithful Remnant of Israel.

The Fathers taught that the Jews would one day accept the Promises and come to faith in Christ. Blessed Jerome of Stridona, in his Commentary on the Song of Songs says:
"Their sins occasioned the salvation of the Gentiles and again the incredulity of the Gentiles will occasion the conversion of Israel. You will find both in the Apostle."
In other words, just as salvation came to us, the Gentiles, because of the unbelief of the Jews, in a similar way, salvation will one day come to the Jews because of the unbelief of the Gentiles (i.e. the "Great Apostasy".) At that time,, the Gentiles will reject God's promises, and so the Jews will receive the Gospel. So let's not talk of the Jews "forfeiting their inheritance" as though we the Gentiles never will.

Which is why I posted above about the end times and those Jews taken up early.
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« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2006, 02:33:16 PM »

Quote
If the Jews are not God's chosen, how are they able to endure even the worst of persecutions? I know that this may sound like a Protestant idea, but I've sometimes considered that while we are God's chosen by adoption, the Jews are His chosen by race. As Saint Paul wrote, the gift and the call of God are irrevocable.

Mathew, that's nonsense. Have you considered that they are persecuted as a result of rejecting Christ? Also, there is nothing special about Jews or the nation of Isreal for that matter. Isreal was just a 'forshadow' of what was to come and is symbolic of the Christian chuch.

These fearful words of Hebrews 6:4-8 were literally applicable to the old Isreal, which had forfeited its birthright:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Quote
If Israel had not rejected Christ, then Salvation would not have come to us, the Gentiles. Christ Himself said that He had come only for Israel. Remember His first two responses to the Gentile Canaanite woman who persistently begged Him to heal her possesed daughter:

In response:

Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance. And do not think to say to yourselves, "We have Abraham as our father," for I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire (Matt. 3:8-10).
and....

As He walked, He came upon a fig tree and looked for fruit, but found none. So He cursed the fig tree, saying, "Let no fruit grow on you ever again." And immediately the fig tree withered away (Matt. 21:18-19).ÂÂ  

and...

They said to Him, "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and will lease his vineyard to other vinegrowers, who will render to him the fruits in their seasons." Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? Therefore, I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it" (Matt. 21:40-43).

Case closed...
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« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2006, 02:53:41 PM »

And that's why the Jews still have the chance to come back to Israel through accepting faith in Christ.  God hasn't permanently shut them out of the Kingdom with no hope, but has still left the way out through the Messiah.

But unless and until they do that, they ain't ISRAEL.

And that's why, in Greek at least, Israel (as a modern state) is neuter gender (to Israil-Ï„ÏŒ Ἰσραήλ), while the people of God, God's chosen, are masculine gender (ho Israil½‰ Ἰσραήλ)
Exodus 4:22
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn=σύ δέ ερείς τω φαραώ; Τάδε λέγει Κύριος, υιός [son] πρωτότοκός μου Ισραήλ
Isaiah 19:25
Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance=Ευλογημένη η Αίγυπτος ο λαός μου και η Ασσυρία το έργον των χειρών μου και ο Ισραήλ [masculine] η κληρονομία μου
Isaiah 63:16
Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting=Συ βεβαίως είσαι ο Πατήρ ημών, αν και ο Αβραάμ δεν εξεύρη ημάς και ο Ισραήλ [masuline] δεν γνωρίζη ημάς; συ, Κύριε, είσαι ο Πατήρ ημών; Λυτρωτής ημών είναι το όνομά σου απ' αιώνος

(Source: KJV & LXX)




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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2006, 04:17:39 PM »

Israel was just a 'forshadow' of what was to come and is symbolic of the Christian chuch.

Case closed...

Have you ever thought about the Jewish population in relation to the Church. Were they come from, who they are in modern-day Israel. They're not ardent religious zealots but had to survive in the worst situations after the War. If this was their decision to become a state than largely it will continue to have a relationship with Christians in cities of Israel. It is against Israeli Law to demolish holy sites so it is unlikely theire will be banishment of non-Jews as it goes against UN-Resolutions 194. Israeli's have had a timid relationship with Orthodox Churches and RC in Jerusalem. It doesn't mean they are the problem makers they are the governing state and the Christians living there must abide by their laws and they would totally applicate that to our Countries. Wherever the Christians are in the Holy Land so to will Israel will continue to help in that investment.

Moderators can you give this guy a warning as far as this goes:
Quote
Have you considered that they are persecuted as a result of rejecting Christ? Also, there is nothing special about Jews or the nation of Israel for that matter.

Orthodox do not consider the  Israel as the pre-existent Rome (or in other words the Eternal City) Jerusalem is inexplicable bound up together with Israeli politics in regards to protecting the cities. Being top-notch on Terrorist related activities in that country.  Let us be grateful that Christians can live in peace while they are at war in the North.
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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2006, 04:31:34 PM »

Quote
Moderators can you give this guy a warning as far as this goes

That's ridiculous. A warning for what I might ask? Your telling me they didn't go through any persecution for rejecting Christ and the events around AD 70 weren't just that? Lets consider the words of Christ:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, "If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets." Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers'guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets and wise men and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that upon you may fall all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation (Matt. 23:29-36).

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« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2006, 06:57:38 PM »

Case closed...

Nacho,
I'm afraid the whole of Romans 11 leaves the case very much open:


ROMANS 11
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3  “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him?  “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

      “ God has given them a spirit of stupor,
       Eyes that they should not see
      And ears that they should not hear,
      To this very day.”

9 And David says:


      “ Let their table become a snare and a trap,
      A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
       10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
       And bow down their back always.”
   
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written:


      “ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
      And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
       27 For this is My covenant with them,
      When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
       34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
      Or who has become His counselor?”
       35 “ Or who has first given to Him
      And it shall be repaid to him?”

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.





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« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2006, 07:01:33 PM »

Mathew, that's nonsense. Have you considered that they are persecuted as a result of rejecting Christ? Also, there is nothing special about Jews or the nation of Isreal for that matter.

Reading the Beatitudes again in the Gospels, I see that they are blessed who are persecuted for righteousness' sake!  I think that can mean anyone, Christian or Jew or even agnostic.  However, I am most distressed that some people on this forum are actually saying that rejection of Christ allows for perseuction.  Does that mean that the Russian Orthodox were persecuted by the communists since they had rejected Christ?  To me such a statement is equivalent to that ridiculous claim of Pat Robertson who said that the hurricanes of last year were God's judgment on America for accepting homosexuality as the norm, abortion on demand, et al. Who are we to know why such abominal events occurred?  Bottom line is this, the Jews were persecuted, just as the Orthodox have been.  How can we say that they were persecuted justly and that the Orthodox were persecuted unjustly?  Persecution is persecution regardless to whom is persecuted and must be called such. ÂÂ

Unfortunately, I think this discussion is too much tainted by the current situation in the Middle East.

Just my 2 cents.

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« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2006, 10:10:24 PM »

This post is going to be a long one, and for this I apologise, but this is a question to which no simple answer can be given.

If Israel had not rejected Christ, then Salvation would not have come to us, the Gentiles. Christ Himself said that He had come only for Israel. Remember His first two responses to the Gentile Canaanite woman who persistently begged Him to heal her possesed daughter:
"I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." andÂÂ  "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs."
God made a promise to Israel, and God is Faithful to His promises. He said He would send the Messiah, and He did. He also said thatÂÂ  that a Faithful Remnant of Israel would be saved, and it was: the Apostles and Disciples were the Faithful remnant. And because Israel for the most part rejected Christ, a "partial blindness" (Romans 11:25) has fallen on Israel, and so Salvation has come to the Gentiles.
In the Matins of Great and Holy Friday, we chant:
Thus says the Lord to the Jews:  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  
My people, what have I done to you?  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  
Or how have I offended you?  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  
To your blind I gave sight. Your lepers I cleansed.  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚Â
The paralytic I raised from his bed.  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚Â
My people, what have I done to you,  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  
and how have you repaid me?  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  
Instead of manna, gall. Instead of water, vinegar;  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚Â
Instead of loving me, you nailed me to the Cross.  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  
I can bear no more.  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  
I shall call the Gentiles mine.
  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  
They will glorify me with the Father and the Spirit,  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  
And I shall give them Eternal Life.


Therefore, we, the Gentiles were accepted, because the Chosen people rejected Him Who was sent to them.
But should we gloat about this? Shouldn't we rather fear God, and love those who, because they were lost, we have been saved?
Salvation came to us Gentiles because of the Faithful Remnant of the Jews- let's never forget that. Not all Israel was lost- God kept His promise.
God did not revoke His promises to all of Israel; Israel rejected them, or rather, wanted them on their own terms and not God's. However, God's promise to them has not been revoked by God, it has merely been extended to include everyone, both Jew and Gentile who comes to believe in Jesus Christ; and the extension of this promise has come because Israel rejected Christ, leaving a Faithful Remnant who brought the Good News to us. Therefore, the Apostle says:
"Concerning the Gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:28-29).

The Church exists today because it's first members were a Faithful Remnant of Israel, and this Faithful Remnant of Israel therefore is the root and trunk of the Tree of the Church. And again, the Apostle says:
"For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? " (Romans 11:16-24)


So the answer is, God's promise to Israel is still there. It has not been revoked. But Israel rejected God's promises except for a Faithful Remnant. And because of their rejection, these promises have been extended to include all who believe in Jesus Christ, both Jew and Gentile- and the Good News of the extension of this promise was brought to us by the Faithful Remnant of Israel.

The Fathers taught that the Jews would one day accept the Promises and come to faith in Christ. Blessed Jerome of Stridona, in his Commentary on the Song of Songs says:
"Their sins occasioned the salvation of the Gentiles and again the incredulity of the Gentiles will occasion the conversion of Israel. You will find both in the Apostle."
In other words, just as salvation came to us, the Gentiles, because of the unbelief of the Jews, in a similar way, salvation will one day come to the Jews because of the unbelief of the Gentiles (i.e. the "Great Apostasy".) At that time,, the Gentiles will reject God's promises, and so the Jews will receive the Gospel. So let's not talk of the Jews "forfeiting their inheritance" as though we the Gentiles never will.

You are right.  But that doesn't mean that we should listen to Judah.  The way to express our love to Judah is by introducing them to Jesus Christ in order to keep them away from the curse of the Old Covenant.

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« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2006, 10:19:49 PM »

If the Jews are not God's chosen, how are they able to endure even the worst of persecutions?

The problem for you is that more Christians have died under persecution.ÂÂ  The numbers are not even close.ÂÂ  Hence, having the ability to endure as yardstick invalidates your argument.

Quote
I know that this may sound like a Protestant idea, but I've sometimes considered that while we are God's chosen by adoption, the Jews are His chosen by race.

I don’t think God is concerned with DNA.ÂÂ  God is not a racist.  Take the case of Abraham.ÂÂ  He became righteous in the eyes of God because of faith; being the son of Terah had nothing to do with it.ÂÂ  It is this faith that the descendants of Abraham inherit that matters.
 
Quote
As Saint Paul wrote, the gift and the call of God are irrevocable.

What's irrevocable is God's commitment to Israel (note: not Judah).ÂÂ  There is a common misconception that all Israel is Judah.ÂÂ  The truth of the matter is that the composition of "Israel"--Gods' chosen people--varied in time.

The kingdom united:
Israel = All 12 Tribes (Mannaseh, Ephraim, Judah, etc.)

The kingdom divided:
Isreal (Judah by name) = 3 Tribes (remnants i.e. Judah, Benjamin and Levi)

The kingdom destroyed (70 AD to present):
Israel = Christian Jews + Gentiles who were grafted into the tribe of Ephraim--God's First-born


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« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2006, 10:42:04 PM »

Reading the Beatitudes again in the Gospels, I see that they are blessed who are persecuted for righteousness' sake!ÂÂ  

Key words: "for righteousness' sake"
 
Quote
However, I am most distressed that some people on this forum are actually saying that rejection of Christ allows for perseuction.ÂÂ  

It was Jesus who said that in the 1st century.ÂÂ  At any rate, the Jews were persecuted because they refused to believe in the message of Christ and instead revolted against the Romans.ÂÂ  The movement was anything but "righteous."ÂÂ  It was for greed's sake.
 
Quote
Does that mean that the Russian Orthodox were persecuted by the communists since they had rejected Christ?ÂÂ  

The Russian Orthodox were persecuted by the communists because of their faith.ÂÂ  Thus, "for righteousness' sake."
 
Quote
To me such a statement is equivalent to that ridiculous claim of Pat Robertson who said that the hurricanes of last year were God's judgment on America for accepting homosexuality as the norm, abortion on demand, et al. Who are we to know why such abominal events occurred?ÂÂ  

And how are you to know that it was NOT God's judgment?ÂÂ  You are contradicting yourself!
 
Quote
Bottom line is this, the Jews were persecuted, just as the Orthodox have been.

But for different reasons.ÂÂ  See above.

Quote
How can we say that they were persecuted justly and that the Orthodox were persecuted unjustly?

The former were revolting on their toes, while the latter were praying on their knees.

Quote
Persecution is persecution regardless to whom is persecuted and must be called such.

Nope.ÂÂ  There are different reasons why people are being persecuted.

Quote
Unfortunately, I think this discussion is too much tainted by the current situation in the Middle East.

The situation in the Middle East today is basically the same as the situation 2,000 years ago.
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« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2006, 10:48:41 PM »

A lucid and excellent rebuttal.
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« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2006, 11:14:01 PM »

Someone said above that the Jews were persecuted as a result of their rejection of Christ. Would it be more accurate to say that the Jews are no longer the Chosen People because they rejected Christ but that they are persecuted because others do not follow Christ? Certainly they were persecuted long before they rejected the Messiah because, as the Old Testament itself says, they were stiff-necked (which is, perhaps, the reason we Orthodox have lost our primacy in the Christian world- having the fulness of God's covenant, we fail to live up to it)
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« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2006, 11:52:17 PM »


Key words: "for righteousness' sake"
 ÃƒÆ’‚Â


So the Jews can and never were righteous after Christ's crucifixion?  Or are we saying that there is only righteousness in Christ?  Please clarify!

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« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2006, 12:40:47 AM »




Nope.ÂÂ  There are different reasons why people are being persecuted.


But that still doesn't address whether persecution is more justified, less justified than another.  And it shouldn't come to that because persecution is wrong, in all its forms.  The slippery slope of this argument would be that Jewish persecution is OK because they do not Christ whereas persecution of Orthodox Christians is unequivocally wrong simply because of our faith in Christ. And I'm confident that is not what you mean. 

Numbers should not determine whether something is actually wrong. That was my main point!

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« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2006, 04:50:59 AM »

Quote
But that still doesn't address whether persecution is more justified, less justified than another.  And it shouldn't come to that because persecution is wrong, in all its forms.  The slippery slope of this argument would be that Jewish persecution is OK because they do not Christ whereas persecution of Orthodox Christians is unequivocally wrong simply because of our faith in Christ. And I'm confident that is not what you mean. 


There is a difference. If the Jews would have chosen Christ, they would have avoided the destruction of the temple in AD 70 and would have lived in Israel until this day instead of being taken away by the Roman armies. They would have had a different fate for the last 2000 years and would not be 'foreigners' in strange lands to this day. It would have drastically changed history and the consequences thereof, 'if' they would have accepted the Messiah.
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« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2006, 09:29:55 AM »

There is a difference. If the Jews would have chosen Christ, they would have avoided the destruction of the temple in AD 70 and would have lived in Israel until this day instead of being taken away by the Roman armies. They would have had a different fate for the last 2000 years and would not be 'foreigners' in strange lands to this day. It would have drastically changed history and the consequences thereof, 'if' they would have accepted the Messiah.
Hang on a minute...
Firstly, how do you know the Temple would not have been destroyed if the Jews accepted Christ? Surely you are not suggesting that the sacrifices would have continued....
Secondly, The Church in Jerusalem was persecuted to the point of having to be dispersed (Acts 8:1). So even converting to Christianity didn't render anyone, even the Jews, immune to persecution and even social destruction. Was this God "passing judgement" on the Church in Jerusalem fo believing in Christ?
Thirdly, should we interpret the destruction of the Orthodox Churches in Kosovo, Asia Minor, Pontos, Cyprus, etc as God "passing judgement" on Orthodoxy for believing in Christ?
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« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2006, 09:45:04 AM »

Nacho,
I'm afraid the whole of Romans 11 leaves the case very much open:

I love Romans 11, which really outlines the fact that there are two kind of Jews since Christ's advent (and, really, two kind of people in general): those who accept and follow Jesus as Messiah, and those who don't.  Those Hebrews who reject Christ as Messiah are no longer in the Israel of God, no matter how "Jewish" they might be.  That they might be undergoing chastisement for this (so that they'd accept Christ, perhaps) is really anybody's guess, but the fact that they are cut off from the Israel of God at this point is irrefuteable, as Rom. 11 makes clear.  This first point, if I may speak for him, is what I think Nacho was trying to get at: the Jews as a whole, apart from their Messiah, are cut off presently from God's people, the Christians.

However, Rom. 11 also makes it clear that, while the current situation for the Jews is one of exile from God's covenant and people (think of it as a spiritual Babylonian exile; the majority are ousted while the remnant remains), there is also the prophecy of return--in other words, the exile the Jews are currently experiencing is not permanent; God may have cut off those unbelieving branches, but He can also (and apparently will also) graft them back on one day, once they believe in Messiah.


ROMANS 11
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.


Right.  He's cut them off for now, but not cast them away with no hope of ever taking them back.

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

A prophecy of their eventual acceptance of the Messiah (or "fullness"), which corrects what their rejection of Him (their "fall") did: sever them from the Israel of God.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.


Too true.  They are the "native branches" to the tree of Israel; we Greek, Russian, Anglo, African, Asian, etc branches are the wild branches that didn't grow there organically.  How much more easily, then, will those branches that have been severed due to unbelief be grafted back on once they do believe?  We should be humbled that we are even on the tree in the first place, and mind our own belief.

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Meaning that this estrangement from God that the Jews are currently undergoing is correctable through faith in Christ.

31b: through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.

There y'go.  They will get grafted back on the same way we got grafted in in the first place: through faith in Christ, and only through that.

Salvation is for the Jew first, and also for the Gentile, but both must come through faith in Christ, regardless of who their father is.  The Jews as a body, apart from Christ, are NOT the Israel of God at this point--the Orthodox Church is--but God has not permanently barred them from coming back home.
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« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2006, 10:23:12 AM »

Pedro
There is not one thing you and I have disagreed with if you read my posts.

the exile the Jews are currently experiencing is not permanent;
This is a point I make in each one of my posts in this thread- although I doubt anyone has bothered to read them. You're preaching to the choir. It is Nacho who said that their exile is permanent:
These fearful words of Hebrews 6:4-8 were literally applicable to the old Isreal, which had forfeited its birthright:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
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« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2006, 10:35:20 AM »

I think I can agree with what I have read in the above post. At this point, it's my opinion that the Jews are just like any other racial group and Israel just like any other nation. In regards to the native branches being grafted back in, of course with Christ all things are possible. The only thing that I'm objecting to is when people make claims that the Jews are God's chosen people. To that I say, no they are not unless they are followers of Christ and part of the greater covenant. God in his mercy may bring Israel back into the fold, but at this point they are still lost without Christ.
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« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2006, 11:01:41 AM »

So the Jews can and never were righteous after Christ's crucifixion?ÂÂ  Or are we saying that there is only righteousness in Christ?ÂÂ  Please clarify!

You may have missed the word "Jews" in my post.  Here it is again.

The kingdom united:
Israel = All 12 Tribes (Mannaseh, Ephraim, Judah, etc.)

The kingdom divided:
Isreal (Judah by name) = 3 Tribes (remnants i.e. Judah, Benjamin and Levi)

The kingdom destroyed (70 AD to present):
Israel = Christian Jews + Gentiles who were grafted into the tribe of Ephraim--God's First-born


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« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2006, 11:21:24 AM »

There is not one thing you and I have disagreed with if you read my posts.

I did, and I agree w/you obviously. Sorry if my post came across as a rebuttal to yours; I really just meant to use yours as a launching out point for my post.

Quote
This is a point I make in each one of my posts in this thread- although I doubt anyone has bothered to read them. You're preaching to the choir. It is Nacho who said that their exile is permanent:

Well, yeah, and his use of that verse was out of context--that verse (I think) has to do with those once enlightened with the Christian mysteries who then fall away completely.
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« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2006, 11:28:36 AM »

But that still doesn't address whether persecution is more justified, less justified than another.ÂÂ  And it shouldn't come to that because persecution is wrong, in all its forms.ÂÂ  

I'm not suggesting that we Christians do the persecution ourselves because that is wrong.

Quote
The slippery slope of this argument would be that Jewish persecution is OK because they do not Christ whereas persecution of Orthodox Christians is unequivocally wrong simply because of our faith in Christ. And I'm confident that is not what you mean.

Neither the killing of the Jews in the 1st century nor the killing of millions of Orthodox Christians in the 20th century is "ok."  We just need to accept them in light of what Scripture says. ÂÂ

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« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2006, 11:54:37 AM »

Secondly, The Church in Jerusalem was persecuted to the point of having to be dispersed (Acts 8:1). So even converting to Christianity didn't render anyone, even the Jews, immune to persecution and even social destruction. Was this God "passing judgement" on the Church in Jerusalem fo believing in Christ?
Thirdly, should we interpret the destruction of the Orthodox Churches in Kosovo, Asia Minor, Pontos, Cyprus, etc as God "passing judgement" on Orthodoxy for believing in Christ?

The underlying assumption is invalid.  Persecution is not limited to judgment; it can be used positively as a testament of faith.  As I've stated previously, persecution could be triggerred either by righteousness or by greed.  In Scripture, Jesus warned the Jews that they will be "persecuted" because of their transgressions.  On the other hand, Jesus warned the apostles that they will be "persecuted" because of their faith. 

There is a difference.
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« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2006, 01:19:43 PM »

In Scripture, Jesus warned the Jews that they will be "persecuted" because of their transgressions.ÂÂ  On the other hand, Jesus warned the apostles that they will be "persecuted" because of their faith.ÂÂ  

Right. And basically he is telling us "You are on your own. I'm outta here!"
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« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2006, 11:48:38 PM »

Right. And basically he is telling us "You are on your own. I'm outta here!"

What He actually told us was: "Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
And had He not been with us, no Christian would have had the cojones and the guts to prefer martyrdom to giving Him up and denying Him.
But I guess very few wish to remain His friends when He asks so much of them... In the days of old, Christians faced torture, execution and exile for their friendship with Him. Today, there is an even more insidious persecution of His followers, and very few can endure. Most prefer to become scoffers and mockers, publically joining the world in spitting on Him Whom they once called "Friend". Betraying Him like Judas, with a kiss....just like all "fair-weather friends".
And these betrayers are the real "Jews", "Scribes" and "Pharisees" of every age- not those of Jewish heritage. It is better never to have accepted the Gospel, than to accept it and make promises only to later break them and deny Him.
There is nothing anyone can do to stop this tide of apostasy except try not to join it themselves. However, we should remember the prophetic words of Blessed Jerome which were posted earlier on this thread concerning Israel:
"Their sins occasioned the salvation of the Gentiles and again the incredulity of the Gentiles will occasion the conversion of Israel."
"Incredulity" in Latin also means "unfaithfulness"- like someone who once professed friendship and later was unfaithful to their friend and betrayed them.

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« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2006, 06:04:49 PM »

The Jewish People of Israel are still Gods Chosen people. From the time the Jewish people left Israel after the Romans destroyed Jerusalem. and when Hitler tried to kill off all the Jewisl People and when the Arabs tried to keep the Jewish people from retaking Israel back.God has been with them always. from that time till now. Even I stand behind Israel. The one thing I can't stand is were Christians still problem The Jewish people for killing Christ. Those Jewish leaders that had Christ put to the cross were not real Jews but puppets of the Roman Empire
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« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2006, 06:11:30 PM »

and when the Arabs tried to keep the Jewish people from retaking Israel back.God has been with them always. from that time till now. Even I stand behind Israel.

Perhaps you're confusing God with the United States and the 28 billion plus dollars along with weapons we send to Israel every year. Without that help Israel might not exist today.
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« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2006, 10:11:31 PM »

Those Jewish leaders that had Christ put to the cross were not real Jews but puppets of the Roman Empire

Are you saying that "puppets of the Roman Empire" are the ones acountable for the sins of Israel? 

That's theologically untenable.

Luke 11
49  Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50  That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51  From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.


The Jews who helped persecute Jesus Christ and the apostles are the ones who were punished in 70 AD.  They were the REAL Jews.
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« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2006, 10:43:29 PM »

Who persecuted Christ?  I did and I do.
Who struck the nails?  I did and I do.
Who wielded the scourge and the spear?  I did and I do.
Who bore the cross?  You did and you do and you will
Christ my Lord.

Lord have Mercy, Lord have Mercy, Lord have Mercy
on this poor sinner
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« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2006, 09:02:19 PM »

I think it becomes easyer if you think of Christianity as a Jewish sect- the choosen sect that didn't reject Christ.  When I realised that Christianity was started by a bunch of Jews, liturgical worship and Orthodoxy made a lot more sence to me.  Anyway, that is the way I frame it in my mind, and that makes the OT and NT flow together.  Before I was Orthodox, I didn't understand the purpose of even having an OT anymore.  I guess I thought we kept it for the cool stories and it made our Bibles larger.
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« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2006, 01:57:55 AM »

Perhaps you're confusing God with the United States and the 28 billion plus dollars along with weapons we send to Israel every year. Without that help Israel might not exist today.

No I am not confused. When The Jewish People returned to Israel after Germany was defeated. The Jewish People fought alone with no help from us and they succeeded in retaking Israel back. Look back at 1973 when Israel had to fight alone against Egypt and Syria and Jordan I believe. yes we sent them matrials But they defeated all three countries by themselves. As small as Israel is God is not going to let any Nation defeat Israel for God is behind Israel until the end of time.
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« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2006, 09:28:51 AM »

I wouldn't go so far as "God won't let any nation defeat Israel," since throughout history 3 or 4 nations have defeated Israel and taken over the land (Babylonians/Assyrians, Greeks, Romans).
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« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2006, 07:12:14 PM »

I wouldn't go so far as "God won't let any nation defeat Israel," since throughout history 3 or 4 nations have defeated Israel and taken over the land (Babylonians/Assyrians, Greeks, Romans).

That was then. But since their return to the Holy Land and have since been fighting Muslims.The State of Israel stands alone in their fighting. since 1948 when Israel be came a State and today they still are fighting alone.
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« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2006, 07:33:16 PM »

I really don't like this topic, because even if the Jews were no longer God's chosen, that is not our right to decide. This could easily be mistaken as a show of hostility toward the Jewish people.
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« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2006, 07:57:08 PM »


They said to Him, "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and will lease his vineyard to other vinegrowers, who will render to him the fruits in their seasons." Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? Therefore, I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it" (Matt. 21:40-43).

Case closed...

Excellent points. 

Here's what the OT says about the covenant with the x-chosen:

Zacharias 11:10 And I will take my beautiful staff, and cast it away, that I may break my covenant which I made with all the people. 11 And it shall be broken in that day; and the Chananites, the sheep that are kept for me, shall know that it is the word of the Lord. 12 And I will say to them, If it be good in your eyes, give me my price, or refuse it. And they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the Lord said to me, Drop them into the furnace, and I will see if it is good metal, as I was proved for their sakes. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them into the furnace in the house of the Lord.

14 And I cast away my second rod, even Line, that I might break the possession between Juda and Israel. 15 And the Lord said to me, Take yet to thee shepherd’s implements belonging to an unskillful shepherd. 16 For, behold, I will raise up a shepherd against the land: he shall not visit that which is perishing, and he shall not seek that which is scattered, and he shall not heal that which is bruised, nor guide that which is whole: but he shall devour the flesh of the choice ones, and shall dislocate the joints of their necks.

17 Alas for the vain shepherds that have forsaken the sheep! the sword shall be upon the arms of such a one, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be completely withered, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

Here are the real chosen people:

Jhn 1:11   He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Jhn 1:12   But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13   Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

More on the Jews:

Matt 23:37 - Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you,
how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers
her young under her wings, but you were unwilling!
38 Behold, your house is left to you desolate.

Mt. 8:10-12 “Truly, I say to you, not in Israel did I find such persuasion. But I say to you that many
will come from east and west, and will recline with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the
Kingdom of the Heavens; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness;"
 
Mt. 13:14-15 “And the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled upon them, which says, ‘In hearing you will hear and in no way know, and seeing,  you will see and no way perceive.’ For the heart of this people has grown fat, and they heard heavily with the ears, and  their eyes were closed, lest they see with the eyes and they hear with the ears, and understand with the heart, and be converted, and I heal them.”
 
Acts 28:28 - “Well, did the Holy Spirit speak through the prophet Isaiah to your fathers,  Therefore, let it be known to you that the salvation of God was sent to the nations; and they will hear.”
 
Rom. 10:20-21 “But Isaiah is very bold and says, “I was found by those not seeking Me, I came to be revealed to those not inquiring after Me.” But to Israel He says, “All the day I stretched out My hands to a disobeying and contradicting people.”

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