Author Topic: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???  (Read 10289 times)

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Offline Matthew777

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Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« on: July 31, 2006, 11:49:51 PM »
Despite his drunkenness at the time, I don't think that what Mel said concerning Jews is entirely inaccurate:

"According to the report, in addition to threatening the arresting deputy and trying to escape, Gibson said, "The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world," and asked the officer, James Mee, "Are you a Jew?""
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060731/ap_en_ot/gibson_remarks_6

The war in Iraq, the current tensions with Iran, and the pre-emptive invasion of Lebanon are either fully or partially the fault of Israel's foreign policy. Who could blame Mel for getting mad over it?

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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2006, 12:04:04 AM »

The war in Iraq, the current tensions with Iran, and the pre-emptive invasion of Lebanon are either fully or partially the fault of Israel's foreign policy. Who could blame Mel for getting mad over it?

I'm not going to say anything about the politics of the Israel-Hizbullah fighting, but, it seems to me that the media, Hollywood and others who hated Mel for making Passion of the Christ are pleased with this whole allged diatribe simply because it allows them to say that they were right in insisting that Mel is anti-Semitic and that he does blame the Jews for the crucifixion of Christ and did try to slant it that way in the movie.  Already, some news outlets, like ABC are resurrecting those stories about Mel's dad who was thought to be some Nazi symphathizer and saying that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

If Mel had mouthed off about the RC church (which I think he wouldn't do) or any Christian group, he'd have been given a medal.  But once say anti-Semitisms, then you've gone way too far.  I love the double standards of this country!

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Offline Tallitot

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2006, 12:34:45 AM »

If Mel had mouthed off about the RC church (which I think he wouldn't do) or any Christian group, he'd have been given a medal.ÂÂ  But once say anti-Semitisms, then you've gone way too far.ÂÂ  I love the double standards of this country!

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Mel Gibson has mouthed off about the RC church. He's not actually RC, he belongs to a break away "pre-Vatican II" sect.
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Offline GiC

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2006, 01:02:10 AM »
Mel Gibson has mouthed off about the RC church. He's not actually RC, he belongs to a break away "pre-Vatican II" sect.

I thought he was part of Opus Dei.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2006, 01:14:11 AM »
Tell us Matthew, if a half dozen bullies surrounded you with guns and knives, and in all sincerity threatened to take your life if given the chance, what would you do? Israel still exists today because every time (and there have been multiple times) that the bully nations teamed up and tried to destroy them, Israel kicked their butts (with a big nod to the U.S. for supplying them). If the peace-mongers had their way, Israel would be non-existent. And then you'd be here having a guilt trip, moaning about how terrible it is that we let people treat the Jews the way we do.

Offline Tallitot

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2006, 01:57:21 AM »
I thought he was part of Opus Dei.

No, he's a member of an "independent" traditional Catholic church; see wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Gibson#Religion

He said in an interview:"Vatican II corrupted the institution of the church. Look at the main fruits: dwindling numbers and pedophilia." — Time, January 27, 2003

Most RC's who were going ga-ga over him when he made the Passion weren't aware of his views..they assumed he was a vanilla RC like them.
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Offline Elisha

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2006, 02:34:57 AM »
No, he's a member of an "independent" traditional Catholic church; see wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Gibson#Religion

I think GiC was being facetious...get used to it.

Offline Nacho

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2006, 04:14:46 AM »
He must have finally snapped from all the threats he and his family have received from far left - wing Jewish groups like the ADL since the making of the Passion. They will never admit to killing their own Messiah and anyone that publicly displays the truth found in the gospels, especially on film is in for a smear campaign. I remember the silliness these people displayed right before the Passion came out making outrageous claims like there will be a huge tide of anti - semitism that will occur in this country and even violent attacks against Jews. Many of these people call themselves 'true Jews', but in revelations chapter two Christ calls people like this nothing but a "synagogue of Satan." They persecute those that are really the 'true Jews', that being the new Israel - the Christian Church. Some of them still do today to Christ as their ancestors did so long ago. I read the other day that Abraham Foxman of the ADL said that no apology by Gibson will be sufficient enough for his anti - Jewish tirade. Well, coming from someone that doesn't have Christ in their life, it makes since why he will never find forgiveness. Sheeesh, and people like this are the darlings of the Evangelicals... ::)
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2006, 07:01:33 AM »
Quote
Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
No, he's just a joke Australia was playing on the rest of the world, and you guys took it seriously.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2006, 08:17:24 AM »
I think Mel is great, but he made a big mistake and will have to pay for it though--he mocked the Lord by continuing his alcohol abuse and the Lord dealt with his pride and lack of self-control.ÂÂ  May I and everyone else learn from his sin and repent.

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« Last Edit: August 01, 2006, 08:17:39 AM by Anastasios »
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Offline SouthSerb99

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2006, 09:21:27 AM »
I'm a little torn on this issue, because on the one hand, I think what he did was wrong (drinking and driving + plus the Jewish remarks - if true), on the other hand, I read the opportunistic comments by those like Abe Foxman and immediately get my back up.

Anastasios is correct when he says that Mel sinned, as we all do, however, how many of us have to deal with the scrutiny of a very intense Jewish lobby to call us out on our "anti-semitism"?

As most of you know, I work in an office where I am the only non-Jewish attorney.ÂÂ  Once this story broke, I heard all the conversations about "we always knew he was anti-semitic just from that stupid movie".

My response to this was "where were all of you complaining about that *stupid movie* called the Da Vinci Code?"ÂÂ  I think many are using to occassion to advance the position that a strict belief in the Gospels is automatically anti-semetic.ÂÂ  For people like me, that is very offensive.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2006, 09:21:58 AM by SouthSerb99 »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2006, 10:09:53 AM »
Anastasios is correct when he says that Mel sinned
This has nothing to do with "sin". I personally think Mel is a bad actor and a bad producer/director/writer, neither of which is a sin. I loathed the Mad Max films, and was not impressed by The Passion of the Christ, so unlike anastasios, I don't think Mel is particularly "great".
But neither do I think he is guilty of the catalogue of sins anastasios accuses him of: 'mocking the Lord', 'pride', 'lack of self control'; and I think it is a bit self-righteous to say that we should learn from this sinner's example and repent. And I must say that I'm a little surprised to hear Christians speak like this.  How can anyone but God know if Mel was mocking Him, or had fallen into pride, or was incontinent? Why is it that when it comes to civil law we so adamantly fight for the principle of "innocent until proven guilty", yet when it comes to the Divine Laws, we happily hand our brothers over to judgement and accuse them of "sin" when Our Lord and His Apostles cleary and distinctly tell us not to? Even if we can't help thinking our brother has "sinned", shouldn't we weave a blanket of love and prayer in order to cover their nakedness rather than point to them and shout "He he is Lord! The sinner!" Do we think tghat God will reward us for being His "policemen"? I think not.
If I wanted to opportunistically use this situation to cast aspersions on the Church, I would point to how quickly Christians forget the command to "pass no judgement", and treat it as meaningless.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2006, 10:18:13 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Hadel

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2006, 10:26:13 AM »
"Those without sin cast the first stone...." JESUS CHRIST

As far as Mel's Jewish statement, in my opinion is WRONG!

However, if he had said something about the Irish, Italian, American in General, Indians, Black-Americans, Arabs, Hispanic etc..... the reaction would be less severe as the Jewish Statement. I have heard personal blows on my ethnicity in hollywood for years and no one ever reacted as Mel's comments so no surprise in my view.

THATS HOLLYWOOD!

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Offline Troldhaugen

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2006, 10:49:46 AM »
I heard about Mr Gibson's anti-semitism when his film "The Passion" came out. It was in the newspapers that both he and his father have previously claimed that the Holocaust was, "exaggerated". So this latest outburst doesn't suprise me at all. I think it's extremely sad that he holds such views and I pray for him that he sees the truth in all of this.

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Offline Jakub

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2006, 12:04:25 PM »
nothing like being humbled by the Lord...He disciplines out of love...His gentle reminder to all.

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Offline chrisb

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2006, 12:13:16 PM »
He must have finally snapped from all the threats he and his family have received from far left - wing Jewish groups like the ADL since the making of the Passion. They will never admit to killing their own Messiah and anyone that publicly displays the truth found in the gospels, especially on film is in for a smear campaign. I remember the silliness these people displayed right before the Passion came out making outrageous claims like there will be a huge tide of anti - semitism that will occur in this country and even violent attacks against Jews. Many of these people call themselves 'true Jews', but in revelations chapter two Christ calls people like this nothing but a "synagogue of Satan." They persecute those that are really the 'true Jews', that being the new Israel - the Christian Church. Some of them still do today to Christ as their ancestors did so long ago. I read the other day that Abraham Foxman of the ADL said that no apology by Gibson will be sufficient enough for his anti - Jewish tirade. Well, coming from someone that doesn't have Christ in their life, it makes since why he will never find forgiveness. Sheeesh, and people like this are the darlings of the Evangelicals... ::)

I'd be interested in knowing what you mean by "people like this are the darlings of the Evangelicals"?
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Offline Nacho

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2006, 12:32:12 PM »
Quote
I'd be interested in knowing what you mean by "people like this are the darlings of the Evangelicals"?

It's in reference to the crazy doctrine that evangelicals espouse as these people still being God's 'chosen' people. They build weird apocalyptic themes around the Jews and current day Israel. I find this pandering absurd quite frankly. The people whom are God's chosen people are those that follow Christ.
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Offline bergschlawiner

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2006, 01:27:46 PM »
Mel Gibson has mouthed off about the RC church. He's not actually RC, he belongs to a break away "pre-Vatican II" sect.
  Then perhaps that would qualify him to be an "Orthodox Roman Catholic"

Offline alexp4uni

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2006, 01:35:12 PM »
The Patriot was better than the Passion.

Offline observer

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2006, 01:58:43 PM »
I hope Mel is not planning a trip to Austria - he could be locked up for free speech ;D
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Offline Tallitot

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2006, 04:04:33 PM »
He must have finally snapped from all the threats he and his family have received from far left - wing Jewish groups like the ADL since the making of the Passion.

I like that line of reasoning...if someone does something wrong it isn't thier own fault...someone else drove them to it. :D I guess Nacho's a "liberal" now.
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Offline Troldhaugen

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2006, 04:06:17 PM »
Free speech comes with responsibility. Comments like Gibson's are just hurtful and are certainly not Christian.
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Offline chrisb

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2006, 04:19:59 PM »
It's in reference to the crazy doctrine that evangelicals espouse as these people still being God's 'chosen' people.

Crazy doctrine or simply acknowledging God's Promise to a people as one beyond reproach?

Quote
They build weird apocalyptic themes around the Jews and current day Israel.

Evangelicals are a big group with a great deal of diversity I'm not sure your statment is accurate to suggest that 'they' build weird apocalyptic themes around the Jews or Israel. Not all Evangelicals claim Pre-Millenial Rapture as they're eschatology. I'd ask you to exercise a little bit more discernment in your use of labeling.

Quote
I find this pandering absurd quite frankly.

Again recognizing God's Promises as Ironclad is not something I would characterize as 'pandering'.

Quote
The people whom are God's chosen people are those that follow Christ.

I believe it was our Lord Himself who once said: For whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.


« Last Edit: August 01, 2006, 04:20:52 PM by chrisb »
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Offline Nacho

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2006, 04:25:48 PM »
Quote
I like that line of reasoning...if someone does something wrong it isn't thier own fault...someone else drove them to it.  I guess Nacho's a "liberal" now.

I'm not making excuses for what he said.... we are all human and sometimes we snap. Who knows what Mel was thinking at the time. It was unfortunate and I hope he makes amends to those he has hurt with his comments.
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Offline Mo the Ethio

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2006, 05:05:58 PM »
Hold on a minute people.
   How do we know if this story is true? Is this man going to be found guilty in the court of public opinion based on what could very well be rumor and possibly out right lies?  Who run this " TMZ" media outfit that broke the story? For all we know, his enemies ( and he has many) have been waiting for an opportunity such as this to unleash a smear campain to discredit Mr. Gibson. It is certainly not out of the realm of possibility. Maybe he said these things . But maybe he did not.
 A little more objectivity and investigation into the FACTS may reveal entirely different story.
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Offline Mo the Ethio

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2006, 05:11:49 PM »
The story was broke by a Mr. Levin   ( Levin = Levi + n ) .  Anybody know if this is a Jewish name?
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Offline Zoe

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2006, 05:17:41 PM »
Why would Mel apologize for something he didn't do?
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Offline Mo the Ethio

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2006, 05:19:38 PM »
Why would Mel apologize for something he didn't do?
  We don`t Know what he said....or am I missing something...
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Offline Troldhaugen

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2006, 05:38:36 PM »
"One must have only a little patience-and is it really so difficult? For every day that passes quietly I thank God"

Offline Aristibule

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2006, 06:20:23 PM »
It's fishy - DUI stops don't include narratives about whether anyone made 'anti-Semitic remarks' - at least none I've ever seen (what, was the Deputy also a script-writer?) The idea that some cover-up has 'excised' some information from the report? Nutters - that isn't how one does a traffic stop, or how one writes a report (never mind what is actually admissible in court to get a conviction for Drunk Driving. Is there video? Did they take him down for a breathalyzer test? etc.) My gut feeling is that someone got leak of the traffic stop and 'introduced' some material. If he was drunk - then how does he know he said it? How does he know he didn't say it? The best course of action would be to apologize - which he has done. That doesn't mean that he actually did it - just that he'll do what it takes to show contrition and try to stop a controversy.
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Offline Mo the Ethio

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2006, 06:28:29 PM »
"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."
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Offline Troldhaugen

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2006, 06:35:31 PM »
It's a terrible thing to say. Anti-semitism is hardly something to be proud of. Personally, I don't want to see Nazis on my TV screen.
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Offline Mo the Ethio

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2006, 06:37:29 PM »
It's a terrible thing to say. Anti-semitism is hardly something to be proud of. Personally, I don't want to see Nazis on my TV screen.
   You`ve NEVER said anything that you regret?
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Offline Troldhaugen

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2006, 06:39:47 PM »
I have but he's made comments like this before and the sect he follows preaches anti-semitism. His father is on record as saying that the Holocaust never happened. He claims to be a Christian and obviously isn't when he finds it acceptable to a)make these statements and b)excuse them because of alcohol. Why are you excusing blatant anti-semitism?
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Offline Mo the Ethio

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2006, 06:42:47 PM »
I have but he's made comments like this before and the sect he follows preaches anti-semitism. His father is on record as saying that the Holocaust never happened. He claims to be a Christian and obviously isn't when he finds it acceptable to a)make these statements and b)excuse them because of alcohol. Why are you excusing blatant anti-semitism?
        If you feel qualified to judge the man, go ahead......I certainly cannot
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Offline Troldhaugen

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2006, 06:44:15 PM »
If objecting to anti-semitism is judging then I'm judging him. But I find that a poor excuse.
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Offline Mo the Ethio

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2006, 06:58:00 PM »
The man was drunk and said some sh*t he should not have said.  Anybody who drinks has at one time or another done the same .  That`s why I call it truth serum.
   This is America . He is entitled to his opinions.....no matter how screwed up they may be. And I will defend his right to have his opinions.
 His personal views are of no concern to me.

   PS.   even if he`s not American.....
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Offline Troldhaugen

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2006, 07:06:59 PM »
He's said these sort of things when he's sober though so the drink really isn't an excuse. If you want to defend an anti-semite then go ahead but if you're defending his right to be anti-semitic, then you're defending the views of Hitler, Stalin and a whole bunch of others and that doesn't strike me as being very wise.
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Offline Mo the Ethio

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2006, 07:09:43 PM »
He's said these sort of things when he's sober though so the drink really isn't an excuse. If you want to defend an anti-semite then go ahead but if you're defending his right to be anti-semitic, then you're defending the views of Hitler, Stalin and a whole bunch of others and that doesn't strike me as being very wise.
   Ok....so now Mel Gibson is in the same category as Hitler and Stalin ::)?
What have YOU been drinking?
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Offline Troldhaugen

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2006, 07:13:37 PM »
If he's an anti-semite, which his comments frequently point to (he said he agreed with his father that the Holocaust was exaggerated) then yes, he is in the same category as Hitler and Stalin. He may not have ordered the execution of Jews but he agrees that Jewish people are of a lesser class and therefore he is definately in their league.
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Offline Mo the Ethio

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2006, 07:18:14 PM »
Oh my goodness......I believe you are suffering from linear thinking .

I am growing bored with this ....I`m going out to have a drink......
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Offline Matthew777

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2006, 07:33:53 PM »
A little more objectivity and investigation into the FACTS may reveal entirely different story.

I hope you are right on this one. Why would Gibson, even if drunk, refer to a police officer as "sugar tits"?
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Offline StephenG

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2006, 07:55:44 PM »
He was apparently drunk, driving and when stopped abusive of a police officer. It also seems he then mouthed off about Jews, something anyone with a career in Hollywood might only do if he wants his career to terminate.

His remarks appear offensive and needless, surely?

Israel is surrounded by bullies? The recent events in both the north and south of the country were triggered by the kidnap of IDF personnel. This was condemned harshly by the Israeli PM. Funny he doesn't remember when Palestine was a British mandate two British Army sergeants were kidnapped. A fruitless search by the British Army and Palestine Police failed to find them until their lifeless bodies were found hanging. In trying to recover the bodies a British captain was killed by a booby trap attached to the bodies. This action had been undertaken by Irgun.

The following quotes of David Ben Gurion, Israeli Prime Minister, 1949-1954 and 1955-1963, might shed light on who example others now follow and why they resist Israel.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves.....politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves.... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
David Ben Gurion, 'Fateful Triangle', by Chomsky in Simha Flapan's 'Zionism and the Palestinians', pages 141-142 citing a 1938 speech

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to ride the Galillee of its Arab population."
David Ben Gurion to the General Staff. From Ben Gurio, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, New York, 1978

"We must expel Arabs and take their places"
David Ben Gurion, 1937, 'Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs', Oxford University Press, 1985

The attitude of some Israelis actually appears to value Arab lives as less than equal to that of Israelis. Certainly a casualty ratio running almost throughout at 10:1 hardly suggests proportionately.

This conflict between two peoples is never going to be solved militarily, and anyview of history, and especially recent history should leave us in no doubt of this.

As to Mr Gibson. He appears to have handed his detractors all the ammunition they might desire, and he only has himself to blame.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2006, 07:57:27 PM by StephenG »

Offline Psalti Boy

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2006, 08:20:18 PM »
And . . . what about forgiveness ???


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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2006, 08:39:09 PM »
I believe that people would forgive him if this were an isolated incident but it doesn't seem to be. It seems to be a personality trait and thats much harder to understand and forgive.
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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2006, 08:56:59 PM »
I believe that people would forgive him if this were an isolated incident but it doesn't seem to be. It seems to be a personality trait and thats much harder to understand and forgive.

I agree with you about it being harder to understand and forgive.  I've struggled with forgiveness over my many years of life, and I too found it very difficult at times.  I had gone years without forgiving some people and didn't feel good about it after I forgave them.

But another point I would like to make . . . to me, Mel Gibson, as well as other celebrities are nobodies to me.  They don't affect my personal life nor do they have an influence on how I feel and act.  They're far away from my life.  So I don't worry about what they sayor do.  Yes it was wrong.  No doubt about it.  But does it affect me personally?  No.

Yes they may have to be held to a higher standard because of their public stature, but I guess I'm fortunate that I try not to allow people to influence me to that degree unless I want them to.

Offline Troldhaugen

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2006, 09:02:41 PM »
A former Prime Minister of ours, James Callaghan was speaking about the death of Diana, Princess of Wales and said;

"I think that her death showed that although people boast about society being more secular, ultimately people want someone to worship and so they fill that space that should be filled by God with any manner of passing celebrities".

I think that's very true and you're right. Celebrities don't affect our personal lives. Personally, I have God and I don't need to fill that gap the late PM spoke of in the manner he put forward but I understand why people do. Usually, I couldn't care less but I think at the moment, the Israel issue is one on everyone's mind and comments like those made by Mr Gibson just don't help.
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Offline kansas city

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2006, 12:18:51 AM »


I really, really hate America.

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2006, 01:34:30 AM »
Quote
Again recognizing God's Promises as Ironclad is not something I would characterize as 'pandering'.

God's promise only extends to the Christian Church, not ethnic Jews or Israel for that matter. I'm surprised people espouse this view, seeing that it is found nowhere in church history. The only people that advocate such a view are dispensational protestant Christians. Lets take a look at Revelations 2:9-10 for a clarification as to who the 'true jews' are - "I know your afflictions and your poverty - yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer."

Keep in mind that at the time the biggest persecutor of the Christian Church were the Jews who were still claiming to be God's chosen people and the rightful heir to the promises of God. Christ says that these people who Claim to be "Jews" are in actuality imposter's who are really persecuting those who are the true Jews, those in the Christian Church. As a backdrop, In Mathew 24 Christ propechied the destruction of the temple within his generation - which in effect ends the old covenant Jewish faith because the temple was at the center of everything pertaining to the Jewish faith. Now, in Revelations these events are unfolding as the promises are "officially" shifting from the old covenant to new as the temple is physically destroyed and the Jews are killed or taken by the Roman Army. I believe that even in Luke 21 it says to the effect that not one stone from the temple will be laying upon another to show the devastating judgement Christ was going to bring to Israel. The temple was destroyed in AD 70, exactly one generation as Christ promised.
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Offline Mo the Ethio

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2006, 01:37:56 AM »

I really, really hate America.


Not me , I love it!     Self loathing is a drag, K.C.
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Offline Psalti Boy

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2006, 09:06:13 AM »

I really, really hate America.


Well, you do have choices: Iran, Syria, Nicaragua, North Korea.  Bon voyage!

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2006, 10:06:28 AM »
Keep it off the politics, fellas.
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Offline TomS

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2006, 10:18:22 AM »
I really, really hate America.

Why would you stay in a place that you hate? That makes no sense to me. I would leave.

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2006, 11:31:55 AM »
God's promise only extends to the Christian Church, not ethnic Jews or Israel for that matter. I'm surprised people espouse this view, seeing that it is found nowhere in church history.

Yeah, isn't it in Ezekiel somewhere where God says that he can raise his people from the stones on the ground if he so chooses?

Offline Matthew777

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2006, 12:34:20 PM »
Well, you do have choices: Iran, Syria, Nicaragua, North Korea.ÂÂ  Bon voyage!

False dichotomy.

Peace.
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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #55 on: August 02, 2006, 12:42:57 PM »
Actually Mel was reading the Aramaic/ George Lamas thread and was driven to extreme consumption of good single malt whiskey...

Good grief the thread is getting off course...drug & alcohol tests ASAP...

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #56 on: August 02, 2006, 12:51:59 PM »
False dichotomy.

Peace.
Well then there's Turkey Iraq, Cuba, Lebanon, Darfur, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia,  Mexico, Columbia.

He is not with us in this country is against us! :-[

Offline Matthew777

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #57 on: August 02, 2006, 02:12:27 PM »
He is not with us in this country is against us! :-[

Once again, that is an obvious false dichotomy.
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Offline Dismus

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #58 on: August 02, 2006, 05:24:15 PM »
Well, you do have choices: Iran, Syria, Nicaragua, North Korea.ÂÂ  Bon voyage!

I can't believe I agree with this statement wholeheartedly!


Kansas-
Maybe we can all pitch in for your ticket. I hear there is a woman who was just scentenced to stoning in Iran. If you get there quickly, you may get to see Malak Ghorbany get the treatment. She was scentenced on June 28, 2006 in a court in the northwestern Iranian city of Urmia. They will wrap her in sheets and throw her in a hole so she can not run away. then, the bloodshed begins!
What a shame you don't like the USA.
I realize it is hard to compete with entertainment that other barbaric countries can provide, but hey, we get along ok.

Offline Mo the Ethio

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #59 on: August 02, 2006, 05:34:07 PM »
I can't believe I agree with this statement wholeheartedly!


Kansas-
Maybe we can all pitch in for your ticket. I hear there is a woman who was just scentenced to stoning in Iran. If you get there quickly, you may get to see Malak Ghorbany get the treatment. She was scentenced on June 28, 2006 in a court in the northwestern Iranian city of Urmia. They will wrap her in sheets and throw her in a hole so she can not run away. then, the bloodshed begins!
What a shame you don't like the USA.
I realize it is hard to compete with entertainment that other barbaric countries can provide, but hey, we get along ok.

    WAIT A MINUTE!     The user named "Kansas City " lives in Missouri NOT Kansas.  No Kansan in their right mind would EVER say any so outlandish as " I hate America"........Except those hippies in Lawrence!
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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #60 on: August 02, 2006, 06:11:27 PM »
People, please lay off kansas city. Reflect for a moment that he/she is being morally publically stoned on this thread for expressing him/herself. It is the sign of a great Nation that it can accept criticism of itself, and it is a sign of a fascist dictatorship that no criticism will be tolerated. Turkey has a new law, Article 301, which forbids "insulting" Turkey, and people are being imprisoned for criticising Turkey. Congratulations USA, you seem to have joined the ranks of countries like Turkey. What ever happened to the people's Constitutional right to have their grievances heard? Whatever happened to the Constitutional right to freedom of expression? Whenever the State becomes a false Idol which all are required to bow down to without question, you can kiss "liberty and justice for all" goodbye.
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Offline Dismus

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #61 on: August 02, 2006, 06:29:15 PM »
People, please lay off kansas city. Reflect for a moment that he/she is being morally publically stoned on this thread for expressing him/herself. It is the sign of a great Nation that it can accept criticism of itself, and it is a sign of a fascist dictatorship that no criticism will be tolerated. Turkey has a new law, Article 301, which forbids "insulting" Turkey, and people are being imprisoned for criticising Turkey. Congratulations USA, you seem to have joined the ranks of countries like Turkey. What ever happened to the people's Constitutional right to have their grievances heard? Whatever happened to the Constitutional right to freedom of expression? Whenever the State becomes a false Idol which all are required to bow down to without question, you can kiss "liberty and justice for all" goodbye.

Well, criticism is fine, but a sweeping condemnation is not.
This feeling the poster expresses is purely ludicrious. No one is here by force. It's by the poster's free will that he/she chooses to stay and likely can not find another place that they would be happy with. You get to vote here in the States. You get the freedom to get involved with your community if it is a lawful activity. If there is something that horrendous to make that charge then do something to make it better, or accept the fact that NOTHING in life is perfect. Not here on earth.
I for one am tierd of hearing about how bad the US is. Sure, anyone can attack it, but likewise I can defend it without being a fascist.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #62 on: August 02, 2006, 06:33:16 PM »
Sure, anyone can attack it, but likewise I can defend it without being a fascist.

True. So then defend it without being a fascist. Explain to kansas city why you think he/she is wrong to hate America. But up until now, the only way you have "defended" your opinion of America is by deporting someone who disagrees with it.
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Offline Dismus

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #63 on: August 02, 2006, 06:34:57 PM »
  ÃƒÆ’‚  WAIT A MINUTE!  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚ The user named "Kansas City " lives in Missouri NOT Kansas.  No Kansan in their right mind would EVER say any so outlandish as " I hate America"........Except those hippies in Lawrence!

Sir, I stand corrected. You are correct in saying that. I mean, WHY did Dorothy keep saying over and over "I want to go home!" 
Those red shoes. Loved that movie as a kid.

But seriously, you are also correct in saying OUTLANDISH.
I would have been more conservative and said "politically incorrect".....Ha ha

Offline Dismus

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #64 on: August 02, 2006, 06:37:01 PM »
How do you defend "I really really hate America"
There is nothing there that states WHY the poster hates America.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #65 on: August 02, 2006, 06:43:37 PM »
How do you defend "I really really hate America"
There is nothing there that states WHY the poster hates America.


So then why not ask him/her what they mean rather than publically mock them and suggest they be deported?
Remember when you first came to this forum? You felt that others were insulting your intelligence and threatened to leave. Why then would you insult someone else on the board? Kansas city has made some very insightful posts and contributions to this forum. No one should be wiped off because of one post- certainly not without inquiring as to what they mean by it.
All I'm suggesting is dialogue rather than mockery and ridicule....What course of action should a Christian choose in this case?
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #66 on: August 02, 2006, 06:46:23 PM »
What course of action should a Christian choose in this case?

Unless of course the State has become for them an Idol which they value and worship above Christ..........
An idol to which they are prepared to sacrifice even their fellow countrymen....
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Offline Dismus

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #67 on: August 02, 2006, 06:59:04 PM »
So then why not ask him/her what they mean rather than publically mock them and suggest they be deported?
Remember when you first came to this forum? You felt that others were insulting your intelligence and threatened to leave. Why then would you insult someone else on the board? Kansas city has made some very insightful posts and contributions to this forum. No one should be wiped off because of one post- certainly not without inquiring as to what they mean by it.
All I'm suggesting is dialogue rather than mockery and ridicule....What course of action should a Christian choose in this case?

The statement was made that was political may I remind you, and not of a religous nature.
I did not insult the poster. I merely offered the poster travel options that included a tip on what he may find outside of the USA. I am not taking anything away from any of the insightful posts that Kansas City made.
This is a matter of someone who lives and benefits from living here saying they hate it here.
The reasons the poster made such a condemnation of their country based on a Mel Gobson thread is making me speculate that the poster would like to have the USA to have a offical state religion for all.
I have been wrong before, and will be wrong again. But at times like this in the world when an American says that they hate their country, I as an American get upset.

Don't pretend you would not be upset if a fellow Orthodox said I hate Orthodoxy!
You would be.

Offline StephenG

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #68 on: August 02, 2006, 07:00:48 PM »
Forgiveness? Of course, but he has to change and show remorse, surely? But sadly for him I suspect there might be some groups who will not forgive.

As to hating America? One might quarrel with some domestic or foreign policy, or dislike a social trend or institution, perhaps a characteristic real or imagined of the population. But to make such a sweeping statement appears a little unreal, me thinks.

For me whatever quarrels I might have with the administration's policies or actions on this or that, there is much to be admired, liked and enjoyed about America.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 07:06:05 PM by StephenG »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #69 on: August 02, 2006, 07:03:33 PM »
Don't pretend you would not be upset if a fellow Orthodox said I hate Orthodoxy!
You would be.

Actually, two of them have on this forum.....and I consider both of them to be good friends. ;)
Orthodoxy is greater and broad-shouldered enough to survive criticism....
I certainly don't suggest that those who disagree with Orthodoxy should leave, nor do I sugest that they are "hippies". I ask them what they mean and dialogue with them to explain why I think they are wrong in their ideas.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 07:08:34 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Dismus

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #70 on: August 02, 2006, 07:06:10 PM »
Unless of course the State has become for them an Idol which they value and worship above Christ..........
An idol to which they are prepared to sacrifice even their fellow countrymen....

Sorry, but I am not sure how you define Idol, or in this case sacrifice.
You use a lot of religious terms to define something very political and not one where religious rules apply. As a legal citizen of the USA I take pride in my country. Some do not. They are not compelled to be tortured with the life the USA provides them. They are free agents.
I am not attacking the intelligence of Kansas. I am defending a Country that is under attack from all sorts and sadly it seems also from within.

Offline Dismus

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #71 on: August 02, 2006, 07:10:07 PM »
Actually, two of them have on this forum.....and I consider both of them to be good friends. ;)
Orthodoxy is greater and broad-shouldered enough to survive criticism....

I am not opposed to being friends with Kansas. If Kansas hates this country so much I will pray for Kansas. I really did not think it was a Christian attitude to hate a Country that offords you religious freedom, but I could be wrong. Maybe Orthodox allow for hatred.
RC would say it is a sin to hate anything but evil.
Now, is the poster saying the USA is EVIL?

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #72 on: August 02, 2006, 07:10:34 PM »
I am defending a Country
No you are not Dismus.
You have said NOTHING in defense of the USA, you have merely ATTACKED one of it's detractors.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 07:13:17 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Dismus

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #73 on: August 02, 2006, 07:12:03 PM »
Forgiveness? Of course, but he has to change and show remorse, surely? But sadly for him I suspect there might be some groups who will not forgive.

As to hating America? One might quarrel with some domestic or foreign policy, or dislike a social trend or institution, perhaps a characteristic real or imagined of the population. But to make such a sweeping statement appears a little unreal, me thinks.

For me whatever quarrels I might have with the administration's policies or actions on this or that, there is much to be admired, liked and enjoyed about America.

I am in the "group" that does forgive. It is required of me per my religion.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #74 on: August 02, 2006, 07:12:19 PM »
Now, is the poster saying the USA is EVIL?

Perhaps you should have asked them before you started mocking them.....I doubt that they'd wish to answer you now. :)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 07:14:25 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Dismus

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #75 on: August 02, 2006, 07:18:44 PM »
No you are not Dismus.
You have said NOTHING in defense of the USA, you have meely ATTACKED one of it's detractors.

Okay. I will be happy to defend what the poster wants to be clear on.
But, since they were not all I can do is state what options they have in the meantime.
If the poster does not like a percieved lack of morality in the USA, then I ask the poster to offer a solution to that.
If the poster does not like the war well, I think no one does, but again offer a better solution.
It's nice to play armchair President, but to be the President it carries a lot of responsibility.
Popes can't get order in the Church.
Orthodoxy is not exactly in perfect order either without one.
Rose colored glasses went out of style a long time ago.


Offline Matthew777

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #76 on: August 02, 2006, 07:26:00 PM »
There are countries better than the United States, in terms of quality of life for the middle class.

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Offline Dismus

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #77 on: August 02, 2006, 07:26:18 PM »
How's this?
I am very sorry to hear Kansas City that you Hate America as much as you do.
I realize that when I hear someone say something so strong as hate, I have to wonder why and be kind and ask what could lead someone to such an emotional response so strong. Now, I did not do that. I lost all patience and forgot that some people just hate. Sorry for my quick judgement, but I do understand the word hate to be a very strong word, so I really did not think you would be opposed to a few strong words either.
Once again, I should not have drawn any conclusions from your condemnation of the USA that you are a citizen of. I should have given you the benefit of the doubt that you had a real cause to hate the USA.
That's what happens when one jumps the gun I guess.
Sorry IF I misunderstood you.

Offline Dismus

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #78 on: August 02, 2006, 07:29:11 PM »
There are countries better than the United States, in terms of quality of life for the middle class.



I hear this often, yet no one says specifically what countries and what about them is specifically better.

Offline Matthew777

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #79 on: August 02, 2006, 07:43:04 PM »

I hear this often, yet no one says specifically what countries and what about them is specifically better.

Consider Sweden. There are better middle class jobs, with better pay, better vacation time, better healthcare benefits, etc. etc. etc.
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Offline Psalti Boy

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #80 on: August 02, 2006, 08:18:57 PM »
OK. I've been quiet long enough on this thread.ÂÂ  Don't worry, I've already taken my meds today.ÂÂ  And I don't mean this to take a political tone, but my statements are the way I feel.

America is us the citizens.ÂÂ  The government is us the citizens.ÂÂ  We the people are the government and America.ÂÂ  One thing I always say when discussing what is wrong with the government is, we can blame our elected officials up to a point.ÂÂ  But we the people let them do it to us.ÂÂ  We must share some of the blame for the way things are.ÂÂ  We can vote them out of office, we can impose term limits; one term and go back and get a real job like the rest of us.ÂÂ  We can take away their lifetime salaries and medical benefits.ÂÂ  But we are the government.

And back to Mel Gibson . . . as Orthodox Christians we must forgive, and not judge no matter how hard it is.ÂÂ  What he said was wrong and he'll answer for it one day.ÂÂ  Haven't we said some stupid things ???ÂÂ  I have.ÂÂ  Enough is enough.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 08:19:24 PM by Psalti Boy »

Offline suzannes

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #81 on: August 02, 2006, 11:19:39 PM »
Not to steer this thread away from "America, love it or leave it", BUT....I have a friend who is a truely devout person, who told me that seeing The Passion of the Christ was one of the most moving experiences she has had, outside of visiting the Holy Land.  What fascinates me is this: that someone who has the power to make art with such a spiritual component, can also be a drunken jerk, saying idiotic things.  I mean, we all fall short, all the time, and we have to keep trying.  Just another guy strugling with our fallen nature!  (Like the rest of us.)

Offline Mo the Ethio

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #82 on: August 02, 2006, 11:26:42 PM »
Not to steer this thread away from "America, love it or leave it", BUT....I have a friend who is a truely devout person, who told me that seeing The Passion of the Christ was one of the most moving experiences she has had, outside of visiting the Holy Land.ÂÂ  What fascinates me is this: that someone who has the power to make art with such a spiritual component, can also be a drunken jerk, saying idiotic things.ÂÂ  I mean, we all fall short, all the time, and we have to keep trying.ÂÂ  Just another guy strugling with our fallen nature!ÂÂ  (Like the rest of us.)

AMEN!
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Offline kansas city

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RE:
« Reply #83 on: August 02, 2006, 11:43:43 PM »
hoooly mackerel!

A) There was an offer in the past few pages that offered contributions toward a ticket for me to leave the United States.  That would be greatly appreciated and let me know if you need a Paypal account or mailing address to send to. ÂÂ

B) I wasn't drinking on that last post but I have been this evening and this is amazing.  Like a huge wrapped and bowed present, just waiting for me.  I've never been so flattered.

C) Ozgeorge... stand up guy in my book. ÂÂ

D) Sorry cleveland, didnt mean to make a fuss.

Good evening.

Online Fr. George

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #84 on: August 03, 2006, 12:06:02 AM »
Well, it went into American Politics, which is a no-no.  Please, open a thread in the Politics section to talk about criticism of the US, the right to criticize and stay, or the need to leave.

Oh, and no prob KC - I just wish we could have stopped it before the gang-up.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 12:09:27 AM by cleveland »
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Offline Fr. David

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #85 on: August 03, 2006, 11:15:54 AM »
Y'all can sign up for the Politics board if you haven't already and continue the America thread here.
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Offline Fr. David

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Re: Is Mel Gibson out of his mind???
« Reply #86 on: August 03, 2006, 11:18:49 AM »
Y'all can sign up for the Politics board if you haven't already and continue the America thread here.
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Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

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