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« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2003, 12:47:56 AM »

This is just what they posted about me claiming that * I * was the one acting uncharitably when they were the ones attacking as wolves.  Unbelievable.

We should not allow posting of pagan and false doctrine as though it were the truth.

Much of the world thinks that the RCC is the Christian church and is either being led straight to hell by this misunderstanding or knowing the history of the RCC wants nothing to do with Christianity at all because of them.

Discussion of the RCC should not enter into every thread.

RCC Doctrine should not be posted here as though it were the Gospel of Jesus Christ and can be used to mislead the unstudied or unknowng.

Our resident Catholic, does not contribute to this board in a manner that reflects the fruit of the Spirit. I find him aggressive, hostile, and rude to all who do not agree with his false doctrine.

The discussions that have gone on here do not amount to honest apologetics but to tiresome endless promotion of the Catholic religion, which most here consider to be a false religion, and I for one agree with Kindgo and the others who would like to see it go elsewhere.

There are people dying each moment of each day who do not know the precious name of Jesus and the Salvation of the bare cross and empty tomb. Do we really believe that we have the luxury of time to waste that has been dedicated to this endless and relentless vain babbling on catholocism?

Father God, In the name of Jesus purge the enemy and all its distractions from our midst and help us to be about your business. Cause to strife and contention that the enemy has brought among the brothers and sisiters on this board to cease immediately; help us not cast our pearls before swine and to know when to shake the dust from our feet and move on with the work you have called us to do... bringing freedom to the captives, healing to the sick and the Gospel to the poor.

In the Mighty Name of Jesus, Name above All Names, I pray. Amen!

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« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2003, 01:00:18 AM »

Father God, In the name of Jesus purge the enemy and all its distractions from our midst and help us to be about your business. Cause to strife and contention that the enemy has brought among the brothers and sisiters on this board to cease immediately; help us not cast our pearls before swine and to know when to shake the dust from our feet and move on with the work you have called us to do... bringing freedom to the captives, healing to the sick and the Gospel to the poor.

In the Mighty Name of Jesus, Name above All Names, I pray. Amen!


They call that a prayer?  Sheesh...

Yes, we ask you, O good Father, Who loves goodness, lead us not into temptation, nor let any iniquity get the rule over us but deliver us from worthless works and form the thoughts, motions, sights and touch thereof. Destroy the tempter and drive him away. Rebuke also his movements implanted in us, and cut off from us all impulses which drag us into sin. And deliver us by Your holy power, in Christ Jesus, our Lord, through Whom the glory, the honour, the dominion, and adoration are due unto You, with Him and the Holy Spirit, the Life-giver, Who is of one essence with You now, and at all times, and unto the age of all ages. Amen.

Copts are better...  Cool
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« Reply #47 on: April 23, 2003, 03:38:47 AM »

Linus I know exactly what you mean.  I used to carry my KJV with me like it was my left lung.  I didn't go into the grocery store even without carying it and it was always full of little tracts put out by Chick such as "The Death Cookie" and "Last Rites".  When I became Catholic I carried my Duay with me wherever I went and it was always stuffed full of extra copies of "Confession of a Roman Catholic" and "The Catholic Church has the Answer."  Now that I'm seriously thinking about becoming Orthodox, I don't know.

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« Reply #48 on: April 23, 2003, 06:56:51 AM »



What do you do?

I am trying to live a pious and holy life. For me, that is the little that I can do right now.

That's great, sinjin. And prayer is definitely a good work that will not be forgotten at the Judgment.

Some folks do not have the temperament to get out and meet and greet people and preach to them. If that is not their calling, then they should not be doing it. They can do other things, like supporting through prayer those who do evangelize , etc.

I just wonder if anyone here is involved in some kind of outreach and what it is they are doing in that regard.

I am the newly-appointed Charity and Outreach Chairman in my parish, a new position.  Thus far I have my hands full with pushing the monthly food drive for the needy.  Father announces the date in the Sunday bulletin, I bring the food barrel to the narthex for that Sunday, the people each bring one non-perishable food item for the needy and fill the barrel, and I deliver the foodstuffs to the local Emergency Food Pantry in the name of the parish the next day.  The amount of food delivered has more than tripled in the past three months, and Father only became Acting Rector in January and asked me to take this position in February.

I've suggested guest speakers, etc., as additional forms of outreach, with ads being placed everywhere, e.g., college bulletin boards, local ethnic stores and newpapers; adult education; teaching English as a second language (thus far I'm the only volunteer), but things move slowly-- some parishioners already complain that there are too many changes since Fr. Michael's arrival.

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« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2003, 07:53:59 AM »

"I have tried to evangelize fundamentalists on another board (theCBBS.com) and after being there for quite some
time they now delete my posts that defend our traditional beliefs that are heavily under attack there and they
just told me that my posts are not welcome."


Welcome to the club!!
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« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2003, 10:54:08 AM »

Some simple ways to evangelise that anyone--and because of their simplicity and ease, everyone--should consider doing:

- Invite people to Church. Even if you don't think they'll come, invite them. If they say no, then let God deal with them, but it's our duty to at least try to get them there. If they aren't Orthodox but are regular church-goers, invite them to Vespers.

- Don't pound them over the head with Orthodox rhetoric or talk about how great Orthodoxy is in a way that makes it sound like a sales pitch. Let them explore for themselves, and if they show interest, follow up. Otherwise, don't pressure them. Make sure they know that you're there, but don't insist on telling them 101 things that you think are great about Orthodoxy.

- When you arrive at Church, park your car far away. I'm serious. Some people--usually first time visitors--will look for any excuse to not attend Church; if they can tell themselves that they "can't find a parking spot" then they will leave. I know this sounds dum, and that they weren't serious to begin with, but it's not dum, and who cares if they are serious! Do we say the same things about someone who has a life-threatening illness but won't go to the hospital? We can't allow Satan to dissuade them from going into the hospital. If they don't attend, let it be because of them, not because of us (ie. not because we took up all the parking spaces and they'll have to walk a distance). This one applies especially to the youth, and obviously doesn't apply as much to the elderly.

- Greet new people if they look like they want to be greeted. There's two mistakes commonly made here: people fall all over a new person who actually just wants to be an "unnoticed observer," or people don't say anything to someone who's looking for the love and warmth of Christ. We need to think about what this person appears to want before we avoid them or start talking their ear off. If they aren't interested, don't both them (except maybe to say hello or nod)! If they are very interested, invite them to dinner or something similar.

- One thing we learned in "seeker sensitive" classes that I think is applicable in Orthodoxy as well is related to the last point. It is said that new comers will not usually stay in a Church where they do not know at least 2 people or two families. It just makes them feel isolated and like they are outsiders. I'm not saying that we should become charismatics and start hugging everyone and stop in the middle of the service to have a "meet and greet" time. We should, however, each take notice of a new comer, and consider getting to know them, or at least making contact.

- I find it hard to believe that Churches still do not have web sites on the internet. Goodness, you can get them for free, and you don't even need programming knowledge. You can make a church website on geocities in one night's sitting, and you can update it in a very short time each week. In an age when so many people are online, I don't understand how some Churches still don't have websites. There's also the fact that the websites (even if not updated regularly) will at least have service times, directions, etc. on it. I learnt something sad early on as I was exploring Orthodoxy: Priests, generally, don't answer phones, and they don't return your calls either (even when they have an answering machine). One Greek Orthodox Church I called had Holy Week Services discussed on the answering machine...  I called in NOVEMBER. There was no mention of normal service times for the rest of the year. This is exactly what will keep people from becoming Orthodox. I know, it sounds dum and like they aren't very serious. Again, we can't let Satan win by planting seeds in a fickle person. If they are going to not become Orthodox, let it not be because of the shortcomings of we Orthodox (though they be many).

- Give new comers something. When I was at Nicholas' church a few weeks ago, I was amazed. Even though they knew we were Orthodox, they gave us a brochure and a cassette tape. Who gives out cassette tapes? That's an expensive thing to do, but they did it. I'm not saying that we need to give out such things to every new comer, but giving them something will help them remember the church and Orthodoxy throughout the week, and might make them come back the next week.

Ok, I'm probably sounding like Warren's Purpose Driven Church, I'll stop now. Smiley


PS. Just to clarify regarding the cassette, it wasn't like a short sermon cassette tape, which costs a buck.. it was a tape of a Liturgy, it was the same tape they were selling in their bookstore for something like $8.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2003, 11:12:00 AM by Paradosis » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2003, 11:05:28 AM »

One Greek Orthodox Church I called had Holy Week Services discussed on the answering machine...  I called in NOVEMBER.

The Really Old Calendar?  Tongue

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)
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« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2003, 11:12:36 AM »

:cheeky:

A great point too! Evangelism requires some warmth and humor. Smiley If it's a constant stream of doctrines and historical happenings, they're probably gonna tune out quick (unless they're a geek like me Grin )
« Last Edit: April 23, 2003, 11:13:55 AM by Paradosis » Logged

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« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2003, 12:20:51 PM »

You all have posted some great stuff!

Catholicious got himself run off another Fundamentalist web site (his new specialty), so he deserves our applause. :disco:

I like what Hypo is doing with his church. I am actually certified to teach ESL (English as a Second Language), so that may be an option in my church, as well.

Paradosis had some absolutely great suggestions.

I think one of the things that attracted me to my church as a Protestant seeker was the way people recognized me, welcomed me, but then did not attempt to smother or embarass me.

One thing that troubles me is the scarcity of Orthodox churches in many parts of this country.

Suppose I witness to someone and discover he is interested in the faith. Where do I send him? Often there is just nowhere!

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« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2003, 12:54:21 PM »

This is my 500th post!

 :disco:
« Last Edit: April 24, 2003, 12:55:52 PM by Linus7 » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: April 24, 2003, 02:18:05 PM »

You all have posted some great stuff!

Catholicious got himself run off another Fundamentalist web site (his new specialty), so he deserves our applause. :disco:


Hehe, thanks for the props Linus!  Yeah I must admit that I am getting pretty good at getting kicked off of sites!  I guess they want to remain in their little glass bubble so there they will remain.  They do not realize there is a whole other world out there!   Grin
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« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2003, 09:58:27 PM »

Here is a quote from St. Jerome which I think is really applicable to modern Protestantism:

We ought to remain in the Church that was founded by the Apostles and continues to this day. If ever you hear of any that are called Christians taking their name not from the Lord Jesus Christ, but from some other, for instance, Marcionites, Valentinians . . . you may be sure that you have not the Church of Christ there, but the synagogue of Antichrist. For the fact that they took rise after the foundation of the Church is proof that they are those whose coming the Apostle foretold. And let them not flatter themselves if they think they have scriptural authority for their assertions, since the devil himself quoted Scripture, and the essence of the Scriptures is not the letter, but the meaning. Otherwise, if we follow the letter, we too can concoct a new dogma and assert that such persons as wear shoes and have two coats must not be received into the Church (quoted in The Way of the Fathers, by Mike Aquilina; Huntington, Indiana: Our Sunday Visitor Publishing, 2000; page 34). I added the underlining for emphasis.
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« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2003, 08:54:05 AM »

Here is a quote from St. Jerome which I think is really applicable to modern Protestantism:

We ought to remain in the Church that was founded by the Apostles and continues to this day. If ever you hear of any that are called Christians taking their name not from the Lord Jesus Christ, but from some other, for instance, Marcionites, Valentinians . . . you may be sure that you have not the Church of Christ there, but the synagogue of Antichrist. For the fact that they took rise after the foundation of the Church is proof that they are those whose coming the Apostle foretold. And let them not flatter themselves if they think they have scriptural authority for their assertions, since the devil himself quoted Scripture, and the essence of the Scriptures is not the letter, but the meaning. Otherwise, if we follow the letter, we too can concoct a new dogma and assert that such persons as wear shoes and have two coats must not be received into the Church (quoted in The Way of the Fathers, by Mike Aquilina; Huntington, Indiana: Our Sunday Visitor Publishing, 2000; page 34). I added the underlining for emphasis.

Anglicans have been saying this for a long time, but its use in evangelism is perilous.

It isn't scripture, so for a Protestant it does not get automatic assent. It relies not on Jerome's authority as a church father, but on ordinary reasonability. As such, to advance it you have to say things that are also ordinarily reasonable.

Also, a canny response would point out that the passage doesn't say not to quote scripture, but rather that exegesis is also important. It doesn't stop anyone from assenting to the proposition and still demanding that all exegesis be done from scripture, denying the use of tradition as an authority.
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« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2003, 08:32:06 PM »

Here is a quote from St. Jerome which I think is really applicable to modern Protestantism:

We ought to remain in the Church that was founded by the Apostles and continues to this day. If ever you hear of any that are called Christians taking their name not from the Lord Jesus Christ, but from some other, for instance, Marcionites, Valentinians . . . you may be sure that you have not the Church of Christ there, but the synagogue of Antichrist. For the fact that they took rise after the foundation of the Church is proof that they are those whose coming the Apostle foretold. And let them not flatter themselves if they think they have scriptural authority for their assertions, since the devil himself quoted Scripture, and the essence of the Scriptures is not the letter, but the meaning. Otherwise, if we follow the letter, we too can concoct a new dogma and assert that such persons as wear shoes and have two coats must not be received into the Church (quoted in The Way of the Fathers, by Mike Aquilina; Huntington, Indiana: Our Sunday Visitor Publishing, 2000; page 34). I added the underlining for emphasis.

Anglicans have been saying this for a long time, but its use in evangelism is perilous.

It isn't scripture, so for a Protestant it does not get automatic assent. It relies not on Jerome's authority as a church father, but on ordinary reasonability. As such, to advance it you have to say things that are also ordinarily reasonable.

Also, a canny response would point out that the passage doesn't say not to quote scripture, but rather that exegesis is also important. It doesn't stop anyone from assenting to the proposition and still demanding that all exegesis be done from scripture, denying the use of tradition as an authority.


The passage relies on St. Jerome's authority as a Father of the Church, its "reasonability," and on the fact that it is true.

Why would a Church Father like St. Jerome say one should not quote Scripture? Of course that is not what he is saying.

He is saying that those who quote Scripture to support innovations in doctrine, to support rebellion against "the Church that was founded by the Apostles and continues to this day," are simply wrong.

Notice that I quoted the passage from St. Jerome on an Orthodox web site, where I expected that most who viewed it would accept it at face value.

When I discuss various topics with Evangelical Protestants, I generally draw my arguments from the Bible and restrict my use of patristic writings to those of the Apostolic Fathers. It is usually easier to convince Protestants to believe them than it is to get them to believe anyone who lived after Constantine legalized Christianity, even St. Jerome.
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« Reply #59 on: May 05, 2003, 08:43:59 PM »

Over on another thread there has been an on-going discussion of the creation of a single, universally-recognized, truly autocephalous American Orthodox Church.

I am one of those who believe such a Church is not only desirable but necessary.

Have any of you ever gotten another person interested in Orthodoxy only to find that the only Church near enough for that person to visit is a highly ethnic Church, with liturgy only in a non-English tongue?

Would the creation of an American Orthodox Church help with this problem, or would it continue?

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« Reply #60 on: May 05, 2003, 09:15:16 PM »

Such a plan would help ease the problem, but I think it'd still be a problem. Where I live, for example, there are over a dozen Orthodox Churches within driving distance. In some areas of the country, on the other hand, there are no Orthodox Churches within driving distance. In both of these two situations, the creation of one autocephalous Church (which all current North American Orthodox Churches included) wouldn't help (in the way being discussed at least). I suppose, however, that such a unified Church could better plan, start, and support missions, which would help.

Regarding getting people interested, I can only think of two examples from my own life. One friend of mine, who was a Philosophy/Religion student at Baylor, said he tried to go to an Orthodox Church but that it was a Serbian Church which (literally) looked down upon outsiders (from what I can tell, this parish isn't under a Serbian bishop, but is just sort of "loose"). The only other thing that I can think of was when my friend visited an OCA Church in the town he lived in. While a few people were pleasant, the atmosphere was spiritually dead. (I've been to this Church, and can understand what he felt, though it's not the priest's fault, he just has too much to do and not enough resource or cooperation to do it).

I think this 2nd type of Church is as big a problem as the "ethnic parish". I've been to parishes (mostly OCA) where the Priest and parishioners were very happy to have a visitor... but you got the feeling that the parish was dying. Perhaps this is just a local phenomenon (many young people left Western PA when industry went south decades ago), but I've been to a number of parishes that seem to be a generation or less away from closing their doors. If a visitor goes to a parish like this, it's probably not the vibrant, living Orthodoxy that he will see, but rather an overworked priest (trying to rotate between multiple parishes that have maybe 25 attending on sundays) and people who seem to be past the point of really being "on fire". For someone new to Orthodoxy, who can't recognize the beauty or depth, it will just seem like rituals performed by a dying Church.
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« Reply #61 on: May 05, 2003, 09:30:09 PM »

Good points, Paradosis.

I guess it does depend a lot upon the local situation. I was very much blessed to land in a vibrant mission parish with a very mixed congregation: Russians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Arabs, Greeks, and run-of-the-mill Americans (converts) like me.

When I started there we were in a little storefront and had maybe 30 people in attendance at Divine Liturgy. But it was great!

We quickly outgrew the storefront and last year moved into a much bigger building that used to be a Protestant church. New people keep coming from somewhere! I used to know absolutely everyone in my church; now I see many people I don't recognize. Glory to Jesus Christ!

I have been to the other kind of Orthodox Church, however. I once visited a Greek church whose membership seemed to be aging and dying before my eyes. There were almost no young people there (maybe a few). The liturgy was in Greek, which was understood by the elderly parishioners.

The church building was lovely and the location excellent. I couldn't help thinking, "Man, this could be a great church if someone would reach out to the local community and have an English liturgy!"
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« Reply #62 on: May 05, 2003, 09:41:18 PM »

America is an interesting place and somewhat unique.  I think it's okay to have foreign languages in the services proportional to the percentage of folks actually born in the motherland who attend the parish, IF another Church is within close proximity that does all English. For instance, a Greek Church in Kalamazoo, MI should not be doing 75% of its liturgy in Greek, and even if 75% of the people were born in Greece, it doesn't matter since there is no other Orthodox Church in 30 miles.

The fact is that mission comes first, period.  Taking care of the immigrants is a form of mission but spreading the Church among new members is the whole point of Church in the first place.  If there is no English parish around, then the local __________ (fill in ethnic blank) Orthodox Church needs to switch primarily to English.

Even ethnic congregations need to reach out. The Bible is clear: you don't do mission, you don't get blessed.

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« Reply #63 on: May 05, 2003, 09:48:18 PM »

America is an interesting place and somewhat unique.  I think it's okay to have foreign languages in the services proportional to the percentage of folks actually born in the motherland who attend the parish, IF another Church is within close proximity that does all English. For instance, a Greek Church in Kalamazoo, MI should not be doing 75% of its liturgy in Greek, and even if 75% of the people were born in Greece, it doesn't matter since there is no other Orthodox Church in 30 miles.

The fact is that mission comes first, period.  Taking care of the immigrants is a form of mission but spreading the Church among new members is the whole point of Church in the first place.  If there is no English parish around, then the local __________ (fill in ethnic blank) Orthodox Church needs to switch primarily to English.

Even ethnic congregations need to reach out. The Bible is clear: you don't do mission, you don't get blessed.

In Christ,

anastasios

Amen!

Beautifully put. Grin
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