Author Topic: Uniate Churches?  (Read 4880 times)

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Offline Papist

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Uniate Churches?
« on: October 18, 2006, 12:28:03 PM »
I know that the Eastern Orthodox are not happy about Uniate Churchers. Personally I think they are great, as long as they believe the same things that Rome does. Anyway, I know you would like us to stop having Uniate Churches. My question is this. What would you like us to do? Kick the Eastern Catholics out of the Church? I don't mean for this to be sarcastic but it seems that is what is being asked for. It seems unfair for us to force them out of the Church. Help me understand your position.
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Offline CRCulver

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2006, 01:06:25 PM »
For one, you could stop filing lawsuits in Transylvania to have properties given to the Orthodox Church reverted back to the Uniates. They're Orthodox now, and they were reassigned according to the law, so just knock it off already.

Offline Papist

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2006, 01:15:41 PM »
For one, you could stop filing lawsuits in Transylvania to have properties given to the Orthodox Church reverted back to the Uniates. They're Orthodox now, and they were reassigned according to the law, so just knock it off already.
Maybe they should never have been taken away from the Eastern Catholics.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2006, 01:27:34 PM »
Quote
Maybe they should never have been taken away from the Eastern Catholics.

That's true. But now, since most of the descendants of the Uniate Romanians chose to stay Orthodox, why sould they give up the churches their ancestors built?

Offline Papist

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2006, 01:39:43 PM »

That's true. But now, since most of the descendants of the Uniate Romanians chose to stay Orthodox, why sould they give up the churches their ancestors built?
Because the belong to the Catholic Church, that is why.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2006, 01:40:18 PM »
Now, back to my original question...
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Offline Papist

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2006, 01:41:19 PM »
For one, you could stop filing lawsuits in Transylvania to have properties given to the Orthodox Church reverted back to the Uniates. They're Orthodox now, and they were reassigned according to the law, so just knock it off already.
Btw, I have never filed a lawsuit in my life, so I am not entirely sure why you are accusing ME of filing a law suit. LOL
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2006, 02:01:33 PM »
They belong to those that built them and to their descendants. They weren't built on the money  of the Pope :(

Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2006, 02:03:30 PM »
Maybe they should never have been taken away from the Eastern Catholics.
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They never belonged to the Eastern Catholics; the Eastern Catholics didn't exist until many centuries after the East/West schism. 
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Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2006, 02:11:00 PM »
I know that the Eastern Orthodox are not happy about Uniate Churchers. Personally I think they are great, as long as they believe the same things that Rome does. Anyway, I know you would like us to stop having Uniate Churches. My question is this. What would you like us to do? Kick the Eastern Catholics out of the Church? I don't mean for this to be sarcastic but it seems that is what is being asked for. It seems unfair for us to force them out of the Church. Help me understand your position.
Many Blessings in Christ

The reason why the Orthodox are upset is that the Roman Catholic Church deceived the Orthodox in their own countries (Russia, etc), by essentially having the same Liturgy as the Orthodox, same praxis, etc, ie, looking Orthodox, but not really being Orthodox.  The Eastern Orthodox have done no such thing in the West, ie, have a Tridentine Mass (or now the Novus Ordo) in the Western countries.  There are some Western Rite Orthodox, but they were "created" out of a request by certain people who were protestant or Catholic and wanted to become Orthodox, but liked the Western liturgy better, from my understanding.  The Pope, by doing what he did in the Orthodox countries by creating the Eastern "Catholic" Churches, acted as a wolf in sheep's clothing, pretending to be Orthodox but yet is a heretic. 
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2006, 02:20:32 PM »
Quote
They never belonged to the Eastern Catholics; the Eastern Catholics didn't exist until many centuries after the East/West schism.
In fact many did, since they were built by the Uniates themselves. But now, in a Transilvanian village that prior to 1948 was Uniate, but today is Orthodox, what would the point be in giving back the village church to a church that has no longer any faithful there? The Uniates, or their  sons and grandsons have returned to the OC. As long as they are willing to stay there, it's only natural that the village church stays theirs too.

Offline FrChris

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2006, 02:47:44 PM »
You know what the most amazing thing about this thread is?

The original post used a term for a church body that we have been instructed by its communicants as being highly offensive ('Uniate') over two hours ago, and yet we still do not have a single post huffily correcting the original post. Where's Deacon Lance when you need him?

Just remember, folks: 'Uniate' is not a term that finds favor on this site. Instead, after long debate, we use a term such as Eastern Catholic (which, coincidentally, is in the title for this board).
« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 02:48:27 PM by chris »
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2006, 02:58:17 PM »
Well, perhaps not all EASTERN CATHOLICS find the word "Uniate" so offensive. In Romania they call themselves "The Romanian Greek Catholic Church UNITED with Rome".

Offline sdcheung

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2006, 03:11:35 PM »
You know what the most amazing thing about this thread is?

The original post used a term for a church body that we have been instructed by its communicants as being highly offensive ('Uniate') over two hours ago, and yet we still do not have a single post huffily correcting the original post. Where's Deacon Lance when you need him?

Just remember, folks: 'Uniate' is not a term that finds favor on this site. Instead, after long debate, we use a term such as Eastern Catholic (which, coincidentally, is in the title for this board).

It's too long to type that word out.

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Offline CRCulver

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2006, 03:22:44 PM »
Well, perhaps not all EASTERN CATHOLICS find the word "Uniate" so offensive. In Romania they call themselves "The Romanian Greek Catholic Church UNITED with Rome".

I was about the post the same.

Offline FrChris

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2006, 03:46:30 PM »
Well, if you want to type out "The Romanian Greek Catholic Church UNITED With Rome" that's fine; just avoid the U-word as I'm tired of fighting that battle...

...and I'm now at the age to have to pick and choose among the battles I will fight! ;)
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2006, 03:49:03 PM »
Ahhh, the niceties of Orthodox Internet forums...
To me the U-word is a misnomer. These churches departed the Catholic Church and joined Rome. 'Disunia' seems more appropriate.
The U-word is a term I dislike, another being the "Photian Schism".

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Offline augustin717

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2006, 12:13:49 PM »
Tomorrow, on the 21th day of October, the Romanian Church commemorates The Holy Transylvanian Martyrs and Confessors, that suffered or died at the hands of the Roman Catholics, fighting against the "Unia", during the 18th century: Visarion, Sofronie, Oprea, Ioan and Moise.

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2006, 01:45:05 PM »
Tomorrow, on the 21th day of October, the Romanian Church commemorates The Holy Transylvanian Martyrs and Confessors, that suffered or died at the hands of the Roman Catholics, fighting against the "Unia", during the 18th century: Visarion, Sofronie, Oprea, Ioan and Moise.

May they pray to God to save our souls and give us Great Mercy!

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Offline Orthodoc

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2006, 08:04:41 PM »
I know that the Eastern Orthodox are not happy about Uniate Churchers. Personally   (1) I think they are great, as long as they believe the same things that Rome does.   Anyway, I know you would like us to stop having Uniate Churches. My question is this.   (2)
What would you like us to do? Kick the Eastern Catholics out of the Church?
I don't mean for this to be sarcastic but it seems that is what is being asked for. It seems unfair for us to force them out of the Church. Help me understand your position.
Many Blessings in Christ

(1)  But do they really?  Have you ever had a discussion with them on what they believe regarding the doctrines added to the RCC after the schism?  Have you ever asked them how they view the status of the pope within the church?  You will get a variety of answers.  Most of them contradicting the other.  They mostly identify their faith based more on politics, ethnic identity, types or worship, national traditions, and hatred.  Rather than the doctrines and dogmas they are required to believe that identify their faith.  I suggest you log on to the Byzantine (catholic) Forum and do a search on things like 'Papal Infallibility or Supremacy', Immaculate Conception, purgatory, etc.   You will see what I mean.

(2)  The "Eastern Catholic" Church was created thru deception.  In the days it was created, the RCC strongly believed that salvation could only be achieved through the RCC and union with Rome.  Their reasoning for their deceptive ways was justified by the fact they were only trying to ensure the salvation of these so called Orthodox schismatics and heretics.

Now the RCC has changed its tune.  They tell us that we Orthodox Catholics are no longer schismatics, or heretics.  We are a 'sister church' with valid sacraments and provide equal salvation.  Well, if this is true and the RCC is not talking out of both sides of its mouth as it has done so many times before, then there is no longer a valid reason for these separated brethren whose ancestors were torn from the womb of their mother churches to exist as separate entities.  Therefore, they should be given a choice on whether they want to remain under papal authority.  Those who chose to do so, should accept the worship and traditions they recognize as providing salvation.  Those who chose their worship and customs etc. should return to the mother that suffered to give birth to them and nuture them for centuries until they were taken away!  Which now they are being told provide equal salvation.

The RCC states that these churches will return to their mother churches when unity with Rome is achieved.  Why do they have to wait if we are an equal church as claimed?  From an Orthodox viewpoint, one can only read between the lines to see that nothing has really changed.  Rome still views unity not as sister churches but as requiring its so called wayward children to return to its so called paternal authority.


Let Rome put their money where their mouth is for a change as the saying goes!
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Everybody: Quick reminder that the Sr. Global Mod has already pointed out that "Uniate" is not acceptable for use.  Thank you - Cleveland
« Last Edit: October 21, 2006, 08:58:11 PM by cleveland »
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Offline Orthodoc

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2006, 09:04:26 PM »


[Everybody: Quick reminder that the Sr. Global Mod has already pointed out that "Uniate" is not acceptable for use.  Thank you - Cleveland ]

Then why is it included in the subject title?

Eastern Catholics are also those of us who belong to the 'One Holy CATHOLIC and Apostolic Church' we profess when we recite the original version of the Creed at every liturgy.  Why haven't you corrected the word in both the title or its usage in any of the other posts regarding this thread?

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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2006, 09:09:50 PM »
Excellent point. If any should have the name "Eastern Catholics", it is us.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2006, 09:25:08 PM »
How about "ESJORC's" ("Eastern Sui Juris Old Roman Churches")?
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Offline Panagiotis

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2006, 11:25:55 PM »
How about the BROTT Church in place of the infamous "U" word and the all-so-Americanized famous "Byzantine Rite Catholic Church"? BROTT, of course, meaning: "Bastardized Rendition Of The Truth" Church.

Just a thought.

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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2006, 11:34:28 PM »
Ouch! easy there, guys.

"Disuniate" is my vote, in lieu of a more accurately descriptive term.
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Offline zebu

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2006, 11:58:42 PM »
As I explained to my Jesuit professor last week "Uniates (i.e., "Eastern Catholics" )aren't Orthodox because they joined the Catholic Church, which believes wrong things, and we don't like that, so yeah."

To mollify a certain poster:

Just remember, folks: 'Uniate' is not a term that finds favor on this site. Instead, after long debate, we use a term such as Eastern Catholic (which, coincidentally, is in the title for this board).

ed. by chris for the above reason cited
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 03:55:27 PM by chris »
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Offline Papist

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2006, 02:38:31 AM »
Ahhh, the niceties of Orthodox Internet forums...
To me the U-word is a misnomer. These churches departed the Catholic Church and joined Rome. 'Disunia' seems more appropriate.
The U-word is a term I dislike, another being the "Photian Schism".

{Insert Papist's standard reply here ------>     <----]  :)
Oh never. Not an argument I want to have. I mean, you guys use the standard "We are really the Catholic Church" arguement all the time even though we all know better. LOL.  ;)
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Offline Papist

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2006, 02:39:46 AM »
Excellent point. If any should have the name "Eastern Catholics", it is us.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2006, 02:41:16 AM »
As I explained to my Jesuit professor last week "Uniates aren't Orthodox because they joined the Catholic Church, which believes wrong things, and we don't like that, so yeah."
Exactly. "Eastern Catholics" are not Eastern Orthodox because they joined the CATHOLIC Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church believes the wrong things. LOL. I am just playing with you guys. I am in a very silly mood right now. Us young ones get like that.

To mollify a certain poster:

Just remember, folks: 'Uniate' is not a term that finds favor on this site. Instead, after long debate, we use a term such as Eastern Catholic (which, coincidentally, is in the title for this board).

ed. by chris for the above reason cited
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 03:56:31 PM by chris »
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2006, 10:48:00 AM »
I love you guys.  ;D

Thanks.
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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2006, 11:07:47 AM »
Just call them Latins or Papists (eastern rite latins or eastern rite papists if one wishes to be more precise)...regardless of their liturgical customs, they've aligned themselves with Rome making them latins. Of course, the title of of schismatics is also quite fair and appropriate, more so that even with the rest of the latin Church, for while the rest of the latin Church's schism was as a result of the Bishop of Rome's schism and the latins simply remained under their bishop (not as though they had much of a choice given the times), the eastern latins schismed on a personal level and didn't even have the common decency to accept their's new Church's liturgical norms.
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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2006, 11:32:30 AM »
We can't 'win here, GiC.
The RCs here object to 'Papist' (most of them at least) and the ECs object to 'Latin', despite both terms applying equally to both.

One wonders now that our site owners are no longer ECs or Rcs what they think?
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Offline Panagiotis

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2006, 11:40:26 AM »
This would be interesting to hear(see) their opinion.

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Offline Orthodoc

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2006, 05:49:18 PM »


I would like to issue a formal complaint regarding the fact that it has only been my post that the moderator of this discussion has chosen to change the useage of the word 'Uniate' and issue a formal reprimand.

As I have stated in my recent post, the word 'uniate' appears in the subject title and in more than one post prior to my post.  Yet mine is the only one where the word was changed and a public repremind was issued.  As of this post, the moderator has yet to address this issue and it seems continues to let the word be used in more than one post after my questions were issued. 

Why is such blatant selectivity being allowed?  Is this the way a moderator is allowed to moderate?  Either a rule applies to all or it applies to no one.  Including me.

I expect an answer and response to this  issue or the credibility of this forum will remain questionable.  And the objective moderating of this forum remain to be unbalanced and prejudicial.

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Offline FrChris

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2006, 08:51:50 PM »
Everybody: Quick reminder that the Sr. Global Mod has already pointed out that "Uniate" is not acceptable for use.  Thank you - Cleveland

Let's consider this complaint...

1. Orthodoc, you have not been 'formally reprimanded'---there is no notation under your name that you are warned. There is no notation anywhere of this situation, and if you had not brought it up it probably would have been ignored.

In fact, unless your name is actually 'Everybody', this reminder of the long-held position of this board was addressed to all past and future participants in this thread.

No repercussions have been promulgated by the use of the word Uniate, which brings me to my next point...

2. Why was Uniate still allowed to be present in the heading? 2 reasons:

a. The Original Poster, a Roman Catholic, highlighted his lack of knowledge of the field by his use of this word. Really, this is a continued indictment of the original poster's lack of knowledge on this topic as well as Eastern Christianity in general.

Of course, he was too clueless to understand this, but this did not stop him from posting.

b. Despite the thread headline existing for several days, advertising its existance for all to see, there still has been no request or complaint from any member of the churches labeled as 'Uniate' even though there were posters I know to be members of those churches logging into this site.

In the past, if an EO person were to use this term, there would have been complaints. I find it most interesting, however, that if an RC person uses the term, the complaints do not occur.

However, now my little experiment will have to stop, although I will keep the thread with the U-word in its label to be easily found when needed and to advertise the potential growth needs for certain posters.

BTW---the moderator of this forum is not Cleveland. However, he felt it necessary to step in as he did, which is exactly what I want my Global Mods to do.
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Offline Orthodoc

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2006, 11:05:37 PM »
Everybody: Quick reminder that the Sr. Global Mod has already pointed out that "Uniate" is not acceptable for use.  Thank you - Cleveland

Let's consider this complaint...

1. Orthodoc, you have not been 'formally reprimanded'---there is no notation under your name that you are warned. There is no notation anywhere of this situation, and if you had not brought it up it probably would have been ignored.

In fact, unless your name is actually 'Everybody', this reminder of the long-held position of this board was addressed to all past and future participants in this thread.

No repercussions have been promulgated by the use of the word Uniate, which brings me to my next point...

2. Why was Uniate still allowed to be present in the heading? 2 reasons:

a. The Original Poster, a Roman Catholic, highlighted his lack of knowledge of the field by his use of this word. Really, this is a continued indictment of the original poster's lack of knowledge on this topic as well as Eastern Christianity in general.

Of course, he was too clueless to understand this, but this did not stop him from posting.

b. Despite the thread headline existing for several days, advertising its existance for all to see, there still has been no request or complaint from any member of the churches labeled as 'Uniate' even though there were posters I know to be members of those churches logging into this site.

In the past, if an EO person were to use this term, there would have been complaints. I find it most interesting, however, that if an RC person uses the term, the complaints do not occur.

However, now my little experiment will have to stop, although I will keep the thread with the U-word in its label to be easily found when needed and to advertise the potential growth needs for certain posters.

BTW---the moderator of this forum is not Cleveland. However, he felt it necessary to step in as he did, which is exactly what I want my Global Mods to do.


With all due respect you still haven't justified why only the wording of the contents of my post was modified while the word was left untouched in all the other post both before and after my post.  Either a rule replies to all or none.  Which is it Sr moderator? 

I find your comment about 'your little experiment' to be an unacceptable explanation.  I can see you not changing the word in the original title but I continue to have a problem with the fact that only the contents of MY POST was modified while others both before and after were left unchanged.  It shows an apparent lack of balance in judgement and indicates I have been singled out.

Your explanation is unacceptable and until you show a more balanced respect for the rules you state you are enforcing, I will withdraw from this site.  Which I'm sure will make some happy.  Especially those who have a problem with the 'U' word.

Orthodoc



« Last Edit: October 22, 2006, 11:13:10 PM by Orthodoc »
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Offline FrChris

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2006, 12:09:28 AM »
Orthodoc,

Let's look at history:

OP: The post uses a term that has been reported to us as being offensive to many.

Reply #11: I remind people not to use the term.

Reply #12: While "Uniate" is used, it is used in a non-pejorative manner, in the context of seeking an equivalent definition:

Quote
Well, perhaps not all EASTERN CATHOLICS find the word "Uniate" so offensive.

Reply #13: Follows the instruction given.
Reply #14: Follows the instruction given.
Reply #15: Follows the instruction given.
Reply #16: Follows the instruction given.
Reply #17: Follows the instruction given.
Reply #18: Follows the instruction given.

Reply #19: Uses the word "Uniate", and in the manner of an insult (the referenced quote shows the edited response):

Quote
The "Eastern Catholic" Church was created thru deception.

The record is clear; Cleveland corrected a situation that needed fixing.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2006, 12:10:04 AM by chris »
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2006, 03:33:52 PM »
Fr. Chris,
No one like Politically Corrected and proscribed speach. I understand Orthodoc's opinion; after all, they can use the term, but we cannot...(despite my belief, already stated, that the term is inaccurate).
Honestly, this isn't the N-word but a term used in the west and east for quite a while, sensitivities aside.
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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2006, 06:01:58 PM »
Quote
Honestly, this isn't the N-word but a term used in the west and east for quite a while, sensitivities aside.

To add to that it is still frequently used in the academic world by the same people that call gypsies "Roma people" and other such highly PC things.  I think it is just a few internet types that get all bent out of shape over the term. 

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Re: Uniate Churches?
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2006, 08:38:57 PM »
Our original intent when we created the site still stands: words like Papist and Uniate are perceived to be offensive by many of those to whom they are applied.  As descriptive terms they are accurate, but our concern was not to be politically correct but merely to restrain some posters from using these terms as prejorative.

That (Roman/Byzantine) Catholics on this forum have occasionally used these terms themselves is curious as Fr Chris noted.  Perhaps has some black people adopted the n-word to stick it to those using it, these (Roman/Byzantine) Catholics have likewise adopted a prejorative as a badge of honor.

It also is the case that in academic writing uniate is still found occasionally.  The context is clear: our intent on the forum was not to be politically correct but merely prevent people from using prejoratives. Orthodox Christians with any class should know not to use prejoratives. This again has nothing to do with being PC.

Orthodoc should consider how difficult it is to be a moderator on a site this large. What appears to me to have happened is that Cleveland came in and edited what was the most recent post at that time.  I would have preferred that he post an independent reply at the bottom. However, he was intervening to quell a broiling situation and in haste sometimes we make mistakes in methodology. He has stated his intent.  Orthodoc has no reason at all to assume that there is some kind of bias against him, especially when at his insistence some years ago the term Papal Catholic was devised.

That some have said that now that we admins are all officially Orthodox instead of inquirers means that we would change the policy just shows that they never understood the policy to begin with, or understood it and simply don't agree with us still, but it should not be put on us as if we have changed. The original intent was to prevent insults so that Eastern (Papal) Catholics would feel welcomed and want to enter into communion with us after discovering the truth.  That has not changed one bit. If refraining from calling these people names is PC then sorry, I'm PC. But of course, we know that is not what is going on.

I think you would be hard pressed to claim we have this policy because we are still cryto-ecumenists or PC. Especially after the last year and a half of my postings.

I think that it's clear that the moderator acted hastily to edit that way but he has made his feelings clear. Orthodoc alleges bias but cannot establish a motive for alleged bias. It is inconceivable that the GM who is a GOA seminarian, the Sr GM who is a GOA priest, and the Admin weighing in here (me) who is a Greek Old Calendarist for God's sake would be biased against an Orthodox Christian like Bob.

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Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism and may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.