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Author Topic: The Assyrian Church of the East  (Read 70388 times) Average Rating: 0
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minasoliman
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« Reply #675 on: January 13, 2010, 12:58:07 PM »

God turned into a human and spilled his blood sounds incomplete at best, pagan at worse. Like Hercules, who was half God half human and spilled literal blood during the 12 tasks of Hercules. Also Gilgamesh, Pharaoh, etc. all the classic Greek pagan tradition men-gods unlike the MAN/GOD which is Meshiakha Eshua.
No it sounds Christian.
I believe the Messiah offered himself as a holy Qurbana (mass/sacrifice), he offered his humanity and that his divinity remained untouched since God cannot die or suffer or bleed (or else the universe stops). The humanity of the Messiah assured that the sacrifice was accepted by the Father, if something 1% less human than 100% humanity was offered we are utterly doomed and have no atonement.
No body said that his Divinity was affected by the cross. But the person who died on the cross was God the Son. Why do you miss this?

Ya, seriously Rafa999 is sounding like a broken record now.
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« Reply #676 on: January 17, 2010, 03:40:15 AM »

Does this church pray to the saints?
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« Reply #677 on: January 17, 2010, 10:55:10 AM »

Of course they do. They have stichera-like structures as we do filling in between the verses of the psalms. A few random examples of various daily offices of the Church of the East:

That he might shew forth his power.
O Cross, which didst
shew wonderful miracles to the sons of men.
Keep harm away from the souls which are
signed with thee.

By the prayers of thy Mother, our Lord,
have
pity on our lives. And by the request of the just and
chaste, answer those who call on thy Name.
The virgins that  her fellows shall they lead after her.
Virgin of the ages, Mary the blessed mother,
beseech
thy Son. To cause his peace to dwell
in this
temple. In which the day of thy memorial is cele-
brated with processions. And to cause the
right hand of his
mercies to overshadow it as the house of Abram. That all
who are afflicted and distressed. From him may receive
help.

Seek the Lord and be
strengthened.
O martyrs, seek for mercy
for the world, which taketh.
Kefuge in the
power of your bones.

He asked life of thee, and thou gavest him.
 Ask for us of
thy Lord, martyr George. Compassion and
mercies, and forgiveness of trespasses. 



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« Reply #678 on: June 20, 2010, 08:34:38 PM »

Here is a video on Youtube, I think those interested in the Assyrian Church of the East, may find of interest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpI271WeUfw

And another Church of the East related video - a hymn sung in Assyrian Neo-Aramaic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os4KtPX17NI
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« Reply #679 on: June 20, 2010, 10:33:02 PM »

Welcome to the forum!
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« Reply #680 on: June 21, 2010, 12:14:43 AM »

Welcome to the forum!

Hi Salpy!

Much appreciated. 
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« Reply #681 on: June 21, 2010, 01:11:27 AM »

Welcome to the forum!

Hi Salpy!

Much appreciated.  

Hello ...The video's are they Assyrian catholic, aligned with Rome it they are, Some one please Post links to some Orthodox Assyrian video's...... Grin
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« Reply #682 on: June 21, 2010, 01:15:55 AM »

Hello Stashko

The footage of the Assyrian Patriarch and the Pope was on occasion of the Common Christological Declaration between the Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East in 1994.  The Chaldean Catholic Church, I believe, is the one to which you refer. 
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« Reply #683 on: June 21, 2010, 01:19:15 AM »

Hello Stashko

The footage of the Assyrian Patriarch and the Pope was on occasion of the Common Christological Declaration between the Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East in 1994.  The Chaldean Catholic Church, I believe, is the one to which you refer. 

I Know a few Orthodox Assyrians in chicago or thats what they say they are ..Any video's about them ,..... Grin
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« Reply #684 on: June 21, 2010, 01:22:40 AM »

I Know a few Orthodox Assyrians in chicago or thats what they say they are ..Any video's about them ,..... Grin

Are they Syriac?  As in, the Syriac Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #685 on: June 21, 2010, 01:23:11 AM »

What are Orthodox Assyrians? I thought the Assyrian Church of the East was Nestorian.
Do you mean the Syrian Orthodox Church (the Oriental Orthodox Church)?

... heh, was a few seconds too slow  Grin
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« Reply #686 on: June 21, 2010, 01:30:10 AM »

I Know a few Orthodox Assyrians in chicago or thats what they say they are ..Any video's about them ,..... Grin

Are they Syriac?  As in, the Syriac Orthodox Church?

There Assyrian from Iraq, Iran, babylon area...They told me there Orthodox ,they mentioned there was a split one went to rome, the other stayed orthodox.....
They have a church here in chicago north of devon on north ashland ave... Grin
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« Reply #687 on: June 21, 2010, 01:34:57 AM »

What are Orthodox Assyrians? I thought the Assyrian Church of the East was Nestorian.
Do you mean the Syrian Orthodox Church (the Oriental Orthodox Church)?

... heh, was a few seconds too slow  Grin

Not the preferred nomenclature, if derogatory.  Wink  
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« Reply #688 on: June 21, 2010, 01:41:10 AM »

There Assyrian from Iraq, Iran, babylon area...They told me there Orthodox ,they mentioned there was a split one went to rome, the other stayed orthodox.....
They have a church here in chicago north of devon on north ashland ave... Grin

Yes, that is one of our churches.  The Assyrians you know may refer to the Church of the East as Orthodox out of convenience.  I do not know.  What I do know is that the Assyrian Church of the East is not in communion with any other church. 
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« Reply #689 on: June 21, 2010, 01:46:29 AM »

There Assyrian from Iraq, Iran, babylon area...They told me there Orthodox ,they mentioned there was a split one went to rome, the other stayed orthodox.....
They have a church here in chicago north of devon on north ashland ave... Grin

Yes, that is one of our churches.  The Assyrians you know may refer to the Church of the East as Orthodox out of convenience.  I do not know.  What I do know is that the Assyrian Church of the East is not in communion with any other church. 

I will visit that church one day and check it out.....Thank You ! For Your Replies.... Grin
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« Reply #690 on: June 21, 2010, 01:48:26 AM »

Maybe a bit of history will help:

"Assyrian" and "Syrian" are not just differences in spelling, but the explanation is not quite that simple and conflicting usages have been sorely contested among 3 different Churches at various times - to the point of lawsuits in some instances.

In the simplest of terms:

  • The Assyrian Apostolic Catholic Church, the Ancient Church of the East, and at least some within the Chaldean Catholic Church (all descended from a common Pre-Chalcedonian ecclesial ancestor) had long self-identified as "Assyrian". They did this as either a function of their Church affiliation, as an ethno-cultural identification, or both. They have also (formally or informally) utilized (or accepted) the usage "Assyrian Orthodox" at various points in their existence and the name has been used by others in reference to them in a way that suggested that it to be the Church's official name - which it never was.
  • The Syriac or Syrian Orthodox Church (Oriental Orthodox) considered "Assyrian" to be an apt descriptor of their own ethno-cultural heritage and were also loath to use "Syrian" as an identifier in the US, because of concern that they would be confused with the Syrian (Antiochian) Orthodox of the Eastern Orthodox Communion. As a consequence, in the late 19th and early 20th century, those Syrian/Syriac Orthodox in the US came to favor "Assyrian Orthodox" as a descriptor.
  • The Syrian (Antiochian) Orthodox of the Eastern Orthodox Communion (sometimes termed Roum (Roman) Orthodox or Melkite Orthodox in those days) never utilized "Assyrian" as a self-descriptor but were invested in the use of "Syrian".
  • Meanwhile, just to add to the chaos, there was also a relatively short-lived phenomenon known as either "Assyrian Orthodox" or "Orthodox Assyrians". These were (Eastern Orthodox) ethnic Assyrians who came into communion with the Russian Orthodox and, ultimately, were assimilated into ROCOR.

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, when only the Syriacs and Syrians (Antiochians) had any real presence in the US, issues were non-existent - the former regularly called themselves "Assyrians" and the latter termed themselves "Syrians". When faithful of the Assyrian Apostolic Church of the East started to become a noticeable identity, competition began to arise among the various ecclesia for the right to naming conventions.

The Syriacs fairly commonly (and even officially, at times) styled themselves as "Assyrian Orthodox" until at least the 1950s. And, until 1999, one would still occasionally encounter its usage in the names of some of its parishes, e.g., St. Mary's Assyrian Orthodox Church in Worcester, MA, its second parish in the US. However, confusian with the pre-Chalcedonian Assyrians was taking its toll and the Syriac hierarchy wanted to get past that.

The change of the Worcester parish's name to St. Mary's Syrian Orthodox Church was the subject of much rancor, resulted in the loss of some parishoners, and was finally effected only after the direct intervention of the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch, His Holiness Mor Ignatius Zakka I Iwas. This despite the fact that Mor Ignatius had already addressed the issue in an Encyclical issued almost 20 years earlier.

I am fairly certain that the Assyrian Orthodox Church of the Virgin Mary in Paramus, NJ, successor to the first Syriac parish in America, is the only Syriac/Syrian Orthodox one in which the older styling is still extant. (The issue of "trustee" ownership has a part in this and has allowed that parish to effectively refuse to do His Holiness' bidding in regard to renaming.)

(It is still the practice of the Armenian Apostolic Church to refer to the Syrian Orthodox as "Assyrian Orthodox", for reasons that are unclear to me.)

Albeit the transition from "Assyrian" to "Syrian" was not effected easily, the right of the Syriacs to use "Syrian Orthodox", their chosen alternative to the abandoned usage of "Assyrian" was much more problematic. The Syrian Orthodox of the Eastern Orthodox Communion were not ready to give up their favored terminology without a fight.

Ultimately, the question of who could legitimately use the designation "Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch" was the subject of a civil court case between the Syriac and Antiochian Churches. The Syriacs won and, from that point onward, the Syrian Orthodox had to be content with "Antiochian" as a substitute.

The Russian-affiliated Assyrian Orthodox, whom I included primarily to make clear the diverse uses, were not a factor in any of these various conflicts. They never had a real presence in the US. They had one church in Baghdad which one author reported as accepting RO "dogma", but neither its jurisdiction or liturgy, although at least some of them were, for a time, induced to abandon their own liturgical praxis and accept the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom in Syriac. See pages 11 and 12 of A History of the Chaldean Mass.

A thesis done a few years ago at St. Vladimir's presents a nice summary of the history and the issues about the name, including the rationale that lay behind the Syriacs' original assumption of "Assyrian" as an identifier. See: Syriac Orthodox Church in North America

As to whether Assyrians, Chaldeans, ansd Syriacs are ethnically the same peoples, one can find a number of decidely different opinions on this - particularly among those who deem themselves Assyrian purists.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #691 on: June 21, 2010, 01:54:01 AM »

Yes, yes, the issue of racial, ethnic, cultural, and religious nomenclatures.  The bane of our collective community's existence.  Sad
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« Reply #692 on: June 21, 2010, 01:55:11 AM »

Welcome to the forum, Shlama.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #693 on: June 21, 2010, 01:56:39 AM »

Much appreciated, Neil  Smiley
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« Reply #694 on: June 21, 2010, 04:11:07 AM »

Welcome to the forum, Shlama!

It's nice to have people of diverse backgrounds around and we don't have nearly enough people from the CoE!

I look forward to reading your posts!
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« Reply #695 on: June 21, 2010, 04:15:46 AM »

Welcome to the forum, Shlama!

It's nice to have people of diverse backgrounds around and we don't have nearly enough people from the CoE!

I look forward to reading your posts!

Greetings, Gregory!  The welcome is very much appreciated. 
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« Reply #696 on: June 21, 2010, 04:31:40 AM »

Welcome.
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« Reply #697 on: June 21, 2010, 05:13:17 AM »

Welcome.

Thank you, my friend. 
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« Reply #698 on: June 21, 2010, 08:45:32 AM »

Shlama, who is in your avatar?

Also, may I ask you some questions about the relationship between the Ancient Assyrian Church of the East and the Assyrian Church of the East?
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« Reply #699 on: June 21, 2010, 11:14:10 AM »

What are Orthodox Assyrians? I thought the Assyrian Church of the East was Nestorian.
Do you mean the Syrian Orthodox Church (the Oriental Orthodox Church)?

... heh, was a few seconds too slow  Grin

Not the preferred nomenclature, if derogatory.  Wink  

Isn't Nestorius considered a Saint in the Assyrian Church of the East? And doesn't your Church hold the same Christology as the Nestorians?
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« Reply #700 on: June 21, 2010, 11:24:02 AM »

Didn't the Assyrian Church of the East make up, like, half of Christendom at one time?
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« Reply #701 on: June 21, 2010, 11:46:37 AM »

Didn't the Assyrian Church of the East make up, like, half of Christendom at one time?
I'm not sure where you get that, although Nestorian Christology was widespread at one time, it certainly wasn't the majority (or even half) of Christendom.
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« Reply #702 on: November 10, 2010, 06:33:44 PM »

The exiles of the See of St.James were headed by the COE when that Ancient see met its end during the Bar Kochba revolt.

In Zechariah 11, the prophet says that after the Good Shephard is fired, a foolish shephard would take over, and God's sword would damage the foolish shephard's right arm and right eye.

Is this a reference to Bar Kokhba?

It sounds like Jewish tradition considers this a reference to Bar Kokhba, which would suggest that according to Jewish tradition, the Good Shephard had already come and been rejected. Perhaps a proof of Christianity for Jews?

Please see:

http://books.google.com/books?id=M6Hpi84pUOkC&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=%22zechariah+11%22+%22bar+kochba%22+OR+%22bar+kokhba%22+eye&source=bl&ots=aQDoSTqoW-&sig=u_FR9F-ugya3nP-VvvVdAXkVeT4&hl=en&ei=zRnbTN29BYGglAf71LXBCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22zechariah%2011%22%20%22bar%20kochba%22%20OR%20%22bar%20kokhba%22%20eye&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=7haFhI2q2_YC&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=%22zechariah+11%22+%22bar+kochba%22+OR+%22bar+kokhba%22+eye&source=bl&ots=kMEJTyTiE5&sig=gFLJ3TtU1Ba_F1gjMAcZzi0EtsE&hl=en&ei=zRnbTN29BYGglAf71LXBCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22zechariah%2011%22%20%22bar%20kochba%22%20OR%20%22bar%20kokhba%22%20eye&f=false

http://www.zacuto.org/101-102.pdf (bottom of p 102)

Same story, bottom of http://www.yashanet.com/studies/revstudy/text/r14_14-20.htm


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« Reply #703 on: July 11, 2011, 12:20:09 PM »

I've been asked to add to this thread the information that the Assyrian Church of the East has never been in communion with any Church, and is not presently in comunion with any Church.
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« Reply #704 on: July 11, 2011, 12:30:01 PM »

I've been asked to add to this thread the information that the Assyrian Church of the East has never been in communion with any Church....
How could that be possible? Didn't the apostles help establish it?
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« Reply #705 on: July 11, 2011, 06:09:23 PM »

Is Rafa banned from posting?

Also, I am confused as to how the Church of the East can have NEVER been in communion?  If it was established by Apostles, that would have made it in communion, if only during their life times.  As well, for it to have ceased to be in communion with the Patriarchates of Jerusalem, Constantinople, Rome, etc. would require that it was in communion at one point.

Could it be that someone is mixing up 'in communion' with 'under the authority of'?  As in, they are saying they were never duty bound to follow the canons and decrees of councils not consisting solely of Church of the East bishops?

I am very confused.
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« Reply #706 on: July 11, 2011, 06:33:03 PM »

I am assuming he meant that since the Christological schisms, the COE has not been in communion with other Churches.
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« Reply #707 on: July 11, 2011, 06:37:46 PM »

Ah, that would make a great deal more sense.
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« Reply #708 on: July 11, 2011, 06:53:35 PM »

Didn't the Assyrian Church of the East make up, like, half of Christendom at one time?

Yes. Their followers covered a huge stretch of land. Until the Muslim armies nearly wiped them out, the Church of the East was the major Christian church in the Arabian Peninsula. There is evidence of a considerable presence in China and other parts of Asia as well.

The book 'The Assyrian Tragedy' by Mar Eshai Shimun is very informative.
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« Reply #709 on: July 11, 2011, 06:58:49 PM »

I am assuming he meant that since the Christological schisms, the COE has not been in communion with other Churches.
They were isolated from the imperial church by politics and geography, but there are a few instances where Nestorian clergymen travelled into the Empire or Western Europe and received the Communion or even celebrated their own particular rites both in C-ple and Rome, and Paris, IIRC.
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« Reply #710 on: July 11, 2011, 07:35:50 PM »

I've been asked to add to this thread the information that the Assyrian Church of the East has never been in communion with any Church, and is not presently in comunion with any Church.

The Assyrian Church of the East has intercommunion with the Chaldean Catholic Church.
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« Reply #711 on: July 12, 2011, 09:49:09 AM »

Didn't the Assyrian Church of the East make up, like, half of Christendom at one time?

Yes. Their followers covered a huge stretch of land. Until the Muslim armies nearly wiped them out, the Church of the East was the major Christian church in the Arabian Peninsula. There is evidence of a considerable presence in China and other parts of Asia as well.

The book 'The Assyrian Tragedy' by Mar Eshai Shimun is very informative.

When I was in college I read quite a few books on the Assyrians, a truly remarkable people.  If anyone's interested, a very moving documentary on their current situation has been released recently. Its called Defying Deletion.

Official Trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXXsdH08XfE
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« Reply #712 on: July 12, 2011, 10:26:30 AM »

Here's an interesting article that tries to briefly cover a wide expanse of Assyrian Church History:

The Assyrian Church in the Mongolian Empire as Observed by World Travelers in the Late 13th and Early 14th Centuries by Stephen Andrew Missick

Quote
Nestorians were important among the Mongols in numbers and influence.  According to Gibbon, “the Nestorian church was diffused from China to Jerusalem and Cyprus; and their numbers, with those of the Jacobites, were computed to surpass the Greek and Latin communions.” (Gibbon, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. iv, 564-565.)


http://www.jaas.org/edocs/v13n2/missick.pdf
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« Reply #713 on: July 12, 2011, 11:01:49 AM »

I am assuming he meant that since the Christological schisms, the COE has not been in communion with other Churches.
They were isolated from the imperial church by politics and geography, but there are a few instances where Nestorian clergymen travelled into the Empire or Western Europe and received the Communion or even celebrated their own particular rites both in C-ple and Rome, and Paris, IIRC.

Yes, I believe that was Rabban Bar Sauma who was given Holy Communion by Pope Nicholas IV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabban_Bar_Sauma
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« Reply #714 on: July 12, 2011, 12:30:18 PM »

Here's an interesting article that tries to briefly cover a wide expanse of Assyrian Church History:

The Assyrian Church in the Mongolian Empire as Observed by World Travelers in the Late 13th and Early 14th Centuries by Stephen Andrew Missick

Quote
Nestorians were important among the Mongols in numbers and influence.  According to Gibbon, “the Nestorian church was diffused from China to Jerusalem and Cyprus; and their numbers, with those of the Jacobites, were computed to surpass the Greek and Latin communions.” (Gibbon, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. iv, 564-565.)


http://www.jaas.org/edocs/v13n2/missick.pdf
I think some Assyrian Church monks helped translate Buddhist texts from Sanskrit to Chinese (or was it from Chinese to Japanese?), around the AD 500s or so.
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« Reply #715 on: July 12, 2011, 12:36:54 PM »

Here's an interesting article that tries to briefly cover a wide expanse of Assyrian Church History:

The Assyrian Church in the Mongolian Empire as Observed by World Travelers in the Late 13th and Early 14th Centuries by Stephen Andrew Missick

Quote
Nestorians were important among the Mongols in numbers and influence.  According to Gibbon, “the Nestorian church was diffused from China to Jerusalem and Cyprus; and their numbers, with those of the Jacobites, were computed to surpass the Greek and Latin communions.” (Gibbon, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. iv, 564-565.)


http://www.jaas.org/edocs/v13n2/missick.pdf
The article states that the Great Wall of China was built, in part, to keep Christians (that is, Christian Mongols) out of China. Interesting. Shocked
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« Reply #716 on: July 13, 2011, 06:00:01 PM »

I've been asked to add to this thread the information that the Assyrian Church of the East has never been in communion with any Church....
How could that be possible? Didn't the apostles help establish it?

Given that Rafa said that the 410 Council of Seleucia-Ctesiphon (before the schisms) indicated that they had never been in communion with Antioch, the most apparent answer is that Rafa has a confused and errant understanding of what it means to be in communion.
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« Reply #717 on: July 13, 2011, 06:00:50 PM »

Could it be that someone is mixing up 'in communion' with 'under the authority of'?

It seems likely that Rafa is doing that.
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« Reply #718 on: July 13, 2011, 06:08:02 PM »

When I was in college I read quite a few books on the Assyrians, a truly remarkable people.

It can be a bit of a misnomer because during the era of the Parthian and Sassanid Persian Empires Aramaean (that of the original people who spoke Aramaic) language and culture was spread throughout the Semitic speaking peoples (of which the Assyrians were one), and even was shared by the Antiochian Church and the Church of the East. Even now the language and culture of the "Assyrians" is predominantly Aramaean, even if maybe their genealogical lineage is Assyrian. Somewhat of a division slowly developed between the West Aramaeans (Syriac Orthodox) and the East Aramaeans (CoE), which is why they are now choosing to identify differently. But a case can be made that their ethnic heritage is still largely the same Aramaic heritage.

[EDIT]: At that, choosing Assyrian to be the common identity of the two (West Syrian and East Syrian) would be far less fitting as the West Syrians are not descendants of the ancient Assyrians genealogically, linguistically, or (mostly) culturally, whereas the East Syrians are at least linguistically and (mostly) culturally Aramaean.
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« Reply #719 on: July 14, 2011, 07:17:54 AM »

Here's an interesting article that tries to briefly cover a wide expanse of Assyrian Church History:

The Assyrian Church in the Mongolian Empire as Observed by World Travelers in the Late 13th and Early 14th Centuries by Stephen Andrew Missick

Quote
Nestorians were important among the Mongols in numbers and influence.  According to Gibbon, “the Nestorian church was diffused from China to Jerusalem and Cyprus; and their numbers, with those of the Jacobites, were computed to surpass the Greek and Latin communions.” (Gibbon, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. iv, 564-565.)


http://www.jaas.org/edocs/v13n2/missick.pdf
The article states that the Great Wall of China was built, in part, to keep Christians (that is, Christian Mongols) out of China. Interesting. Shocked

Wow!
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“I returned to the Coptic Orthodox Church with affection, finding in her our tormented and broken history“. -Salama Moussa
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