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Author Topic: The Assyrian Church of the East  (Read 69431 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #495 on: January 05, 2010, 12:17:55 AM »

Theodore did not spin his Christology from nowhere. I honestly think we have a comprehension problem here on what Mar Theodore actually wrote. He is not Arian, Adoptionist, Apollinarian, Sabellian, Modalist,etc. his Christology is that of the apostles, it is not his fault Greeks make everything insanely "scientific" and cannot understand that the Revelation cannot be fit into a pre-established box every time they want. Really, compare Syriac to Greek. Read a book in Syriac...no vowels! What do you expect?
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« Reply #496 on: January 05, 2010, 12:32:51 AM »

Quote
That is why he had an alphabet developed by St. Mesrob.  He wanted to be able to translate and bring in theological writings from other traditions besides the COE.

He wanted to innovate is that correct? He decided his people needed a "New" script to read the scriptures instead of sticking to the Syriac, am I correct? Even though Aramaic was the lingua franca of the Middle East much like Greek in Byzantium. He needed other traditions from the West which was at that time suffering under the much disputed heresies I mentioned to invade his domain is that it? He preferred to invent a new language rather than read in Syriac which is nearly identical to the language of Jesus? Sounds pretty suspicious to me...



My, my, aren't we suspicious.  I'm a little disturbed by the baptized Muslim polemics.

He didn't "invent" a new language: Armenian had been in existence for quite some time, and the Armenian nation for at least a thousand years by the time of St. Mesrob.  It was the language his people spoke.  Why shouldn't they read the scriptures and worship in that language?

Aramaic had plenty of heresies running about.  Mani made a point that he was born in an Aramaic speaking society, and wrote his Bible in Syriac.  And he wasn't the only Aramaic heresiarch.

Aramaic had been eclipsed as linqua franca by Greek since the time of Alexander. Asoka in India did set up Aramaic inscriptions, but under the Greek.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/AsokaKandahar.jpg
There were several Greek kingdoms in India and the area between Iran, Central Asia and India.  The Romans, who used Greek, had taken Mesopotamia just after the NT was finished, and the rest of the Syriac heartland almost a century before the council of Nicea I.  The Aramaic, and Syriac, languages themselves show the influence of Greek.
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« Reply #497 on: January 05, 2010, 12:38:43 AM »

Maybe because they perceived the COE as more orthodox.

Strange, I don't recall that word being a self-identifier for you Assyrians.
No, it's used. But that doesn't mean much, because the Arians, for instance, call themselves "Catholic."
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« Reply #498 on: January 05, 2010, 12:41:26 AM »

Yes, I'm sure the Chosroes and the Sapors spoke Greek  laugh

As soon as you create a language you innovate. You decide the grammatical structure and syntax, the system of vowels,the very way people think. The Greeks were 100% absorbed and orientalized, Aramaic predominated. Loan words in Aramaic mean nothing, Hebrew has EGYPTIAN loan words.

Quote
Why shouldn't they read the scriptures and worship in that language?

Better to Targum in Jesus's language no? Think like Jesus by speaking God's language  Wink

As for the Muslim thing, Islam is derived from Syriac Christianity. Mohammed is a Syriac heretic correct.
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« Reply #499 on: January 05, 2010, 12:58:30 AM »

The DL of His brother James at Jerusalem is older.

Every Liturgical scholar I am familiar with concede the oldest extant Liturgy to Mar Addai and Mari, dating it to 3rd century, that of St. James to the 4th. 
The present form of the DL of Mar Addai and Mari dates to the 6th cent.  The catachesis of St. Cyril of Jerusalem (mid 4th) parrallels the text of St. James, which is attested in Coptic, Syriac, Georgian as well as Greek, and elaborate in each.
http://books.google.com/books?id=0RanQa-mLTwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Liturgy+Mari+and+Addai&source=gbs_similarbooks_s&cad=1#v=onepage&q=Liturgy%20Mari%20and%20Addai&f=false

The present form, yes, but that would be true of most present forms.  The Anaphora of Addai and Mari is seen as contemporary with the Liturgy in the Didache which most date to the 3rd century.

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« Reply #500 on: January 05, 2010, 01:02:47 AM »

Yes, I'm sure the Chosroes and the Sapors spoke Greek  laugh

No, but their predecessors, the Parthians (the ones ruling Persia at the time of Christ) did.  Here's a coin rendering to the shah that which is the shah's:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/69/MithradatesI.jpg
Greek inscription reads ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΜΕΓΑΛΟΥ ΑΡΣΑΚΟΥ ΦΙΛΕΛΛΗΝΟΣ ([coin] of the great king Arsaces, lover of the Greeks)

Quote
As soon as you create a language you innovate. You decide the grammatical structure and syntax, the system of vowels,the very way people think. The Greeks were 100% absorbed and orientalized, Aramaic predominated.

Well, they must have been the dominant traid in the "absorbtion," because, as we see above, their language and cultural influence was paramount.

Quote
Loan words in Aramaic mean nothing, Hebrew has EGYPTIAN loan words.

I should think so, living 400 years there, and being led by an Egyptian prince who wrote their law.

Quote
Quote
Why shouldn't they read the scriptures and worship in that language?

Better to Targum in Jesus's language no?

No.  That's what Pentecost was about.


Quote
Think like Jesus by speaking God's language  Wink

You mean Arabic?

Quote
As for the Muslim thing, Islam is derived from Syriac Christianity. Mohammed is a Syriac heretic correct.

Then why are you imitating him and his followers?
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« Reply #501 on: January 05, 2010, 01:09:34 AM »

Quote
Greek inscription reads ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΜΕΓΑΛΟΥ ΑΡΣΑΚΟΥ ΦΙΛΕΛΛΗΝΟΣ ([coin] of the great king Arsaces, lover of the Greeks)

What better way to show how much you "loved" the Greek language to mint a coin saying "we love Greek"? Please Isa, you know better. You knw that Parthia played these little games with the Sleucids all the time.

Quote
Well, they must have been the dominant traid in the "absorbtion," because, as we see above, their language and cultural influence was paramount.

Where are your Indian Greeks then? They were completely absorbed, orientalized. They adopted the same gods as the Indians and soon reverted to speaking the native languages.

Quote
I should think so, living 400 years there, and being led by an Egyptian prince who wrote their law.

As if living under Greeks for the same time wouldn't result in loan words no?

Quote
No.  That's what Pentecost was about.

So now we lose the original and let the doctrines of men override us? Was that not the reason the pharisees got trashed by Jesus? Do you wish the same fate of Jerusalem in the first century?

Quote
Then why are you imitating him and his followers?

I would never on pains of death or torture recite a blasphemy such as "Allah had no Son" or that Jesus was the (failed) prophet before Mohammed. NEVER.

OH nearly forgot...the COE has the most ancient manuscripts of the Didache with it. So the COE has the "catechism" written by associates of the apostles with it.
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« Reply #502 on: January 05, 2010, 01:35:32 AM »

Quote
Greek inscription reads ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΜΕΓΑΛΟΥ ΑΡΣΑΚΟΥ ΦΙΛΕΛΛΗΝΟΣ ([coin] of the great king Arsaces, lover of the Greeks)

What better way to show how much you "loved" the Greek language to mint a coin saying "we love Greek"? Please Isa, you know better. You knw that Parthia played these little games with the Sleucids all the time.

That's nice: what games did they play with the Assyrians?

Quote
Quote
Well, they must have been the dominant traid in the "absorbtion," because, as we see above, their language and cultural influence was paramount.

Where are your Indian Greeks then? They were completely absorbed, orientalized. They adopted the same gods as the Indians and soon reverted to speaking the native languages.


They survived until the time of Christ.  We have their coins, inscriptions, etc. And no, they didn't adopt Indian gods, but some eventually became Buddhist.  But then, so did some in the Aramaic world and the Roman empire.

Quote
Quote
I should think so, living 400 years there, and being led by an Egyptian prince who wrote their law.

As if living under Greeks for the same time wouldn't result in loan words no?

Exactly.

Quote
Quote
No.  That's what Pentecost was about.

So now we lose the original and let the doctrines of men override us?

Except for Matthew, we have the original NT.  That we have only a few of the original words is just how it goes.  I've explained my views on the implications for universality of the Bible here already.


Quote
Was that not the reason the pharisees got trashed by Jesus?


No.  The Pharisees spoke and wrote in Aramaic (but not Syriac) like everyone else.

Quote
Do you wish the same fate of Jerusalem in the first century?

I was born about two thousand years too late to wish any fate on first century Jerusalem.

Quote
Quote
Then why are you imitating him and his followers?

I would never on pains of death or torture recite a blasphemy such as "Allah had no Son" or that Jesus was the (failed) prophet before Mohammed. NEVER.

Then why do you buy into their ideas of scripture?

OH nearly forgot...the COE has the most ancient manuscripts of the Didache with it. [/quote]

In Greek? Latin? Coptic? Ge'ez?


Quote
So the COE has the "catechism" written by associates of the apostles with it.

On this question, btw:
Matthew and the Didache: Two Documents from the same Jewish-Christian milieu? By Hubertus Maria van de sandtor Waltherus
http://books.google.com/books?id=QwKUjnRZRzkC&pg=PA19&dq=Syriac+Didache&cd=1#v=onepage&q=Syriac%20Didache&f=false
that page (19) deals with the issue of Greek and Syriac culture at Edessa.
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« Reply #503 on: January 05, 2010, 01:48:10 AM »

King Abgar spoke Aramaic. The Didache was in Aramaic (our Syriac version=correct). I have proof, Eusebius in his history says he translated the letters and other documents from the Edessene Archive.
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« Reply #504 on: January 05, 2010, 01:54:42 AM »

Attention all Roman Catholics: by the decree of Mar Papa Nicholas IV in 1288, the Catholicos Patriarch of the East has jurisdiction over ALL Christians of the East, from Baghdad all the way to China. Failure to obey this most holy Papal Bull is reason enough for excommunication.

Thats for you papist  Cheesy
Yawn. That's no different from our belief that current Ecumenical Patriarch has jurisdiction over Constantinople. This doesn't mean we agree with everything he believes. Your arguements keep coming up flat.
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« Reply #505 on: January 05, 2010, 01:59:07 AM »

King Abgar spoke Aramaic. The Didache was in Aramaic (our Syriac version=correct). I have proof,

then show it.  I've never heard of a Didache in Syriac.  And what's King Abgar have to do with the Didache?


Quote
Eusebius in his history says he translated the letters and other documents from the Edessene Archive.
Btw, Abgar was Arab.
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« Reply #506 on: January 05, 2010, 01:59:34 AM »

I guess I just can't understand the COE's aversion to God truely participating in our humanity. If he did not how could we be saved? If he did not, how could theosis be possible?
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« Reply #507 on: January 05, 2010, 02:03:21 AM »

King Abgar spoke Aramaic. The Didache was in Aramaic (our Syriac version=correct). I have proof,

then show it.  I've never heard of a Didache in Syriac.  And what's King Abgar have to do with the Didache?


Quote
Eusebius in his history says he translated the letters and other documents from the Edessene Archive.
Btw, Abgar was Arab.

The Didache was used to train people in the Christian faith in Antioch. Actually I don't know if we have an original Aramaic Didache. I will have to check.

To Papist:

Quote
Yawn. That's no different from our belief that current Ecumenical Patriarch has jurisdiction over Constantinople. This doesn't mean we agree with everything he believes. Your arguements keep coming up flat.

The Pope of Rome has spoken EX CATHEDRA there is no way out for you on this one. You either call your patriarch a liar or you accept his bull spoken not as a private theologian.

Quote
I guess I just can't understand the COE's aversion to God truely participating in our humanity. If he did not how could we be saved? If he did not, how could theosis be possible?

We would not be saved if God's essence corrupted itself, a human nature not a frankenstein thing had to be offered as a mass or else we are DOOMED.
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« Reply #508 on: January 05, 2010, 02:16:49 AM »



The Pope of Rome has spoken EX CATHEDRA there is no way out for you on this one. You either call your patriarch a liar or you accept his bull spoken not as a private theologian.

Um, not sure what you are arguing here. Sure this guy had jurisdiction over the far east. That doesn't mean the pope agreed with what the guy taught.


We would not be saved if God's essence corrupted itself, a human nature not a frankenstein thing had to be offered as a mass or else we are DOOMED.
We never said that God's nature or essence was corrupted.
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« Reply #509 on: January 05, 2010, 02:19:50 AM »

Quote
Um, not sure what you are arguing here. Sure this guy had jurisdiction over the far east. That doesn't mean the pope agreed with what the guy taught.

In 1288 his cardinals did except for the "holy spirit does not come from the Son also" clause the COE doesn't believe in. The best friend of patriarch Mar Yahballaha (the first and only Chinese Patriarch of the COE), the holy rabban Bar Saumo also celebrated mass in Notredame at the Pope's invitation. So much for "unorthodox".
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« Reply #510 on: January 05, 2010, 02:21:27 AM »

Quote
Um, not sure what you are arguing here. Sure this guy had jurisdiction over the far east. That doesn't mean the pope agreed with what the guy taught.

In 1288 his cardinals did except for the "holy spirit does not come from the Son also" clause the COE doesn't believe in. The best friend of patriarch Mar Yahballaha (the first and only Chinese Patriarch of the COE), the holy rabban Bar Saumo also celebrated mass in Notredame at the Pope's invitation. So much for "unorthodox".
I still think your ideas on Christology are unorthodox. Sorry buddy, no cookie for you.
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« Reply #511 on: January 05, 2010, 02:22:09 AM »

Quote
Um, not sure what you are arguing here. Sure this guy had jurisdiction over the far east. That doesn't mean the pope agreed with what the guy taught.

In 1288 his cardinals did except for the "holy spirit does not come from the Son also" clause the COE doesn't believe in. The best friend of patriarch Mar Yahballaha (the first and only Chinese Patriarch of the COE), the holy rabban Bar Saumo also celebrated mass in Notredame at the Pope's invitation. So much for "unorthodox".
Yes, the pope in the Vatican at the time was quite unorthodox.
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« Reply #512 on: January 05, 2010, 02:22:32 AM »

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I still think your ideas on Christology are unorthodox. Sorry buddy, no cookie for you.

The pope doesn't. See 1994 Christological agreement between Mar Dinkha IV and John Paul VI.
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« Reply #513 on: January 05, 2010, 03:26:50 AM »

Rafa, would you mind if I asked you a few questions about the Theology, Triadology, and Christology of the ACE?
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« Reply #514 on: January 05, 2010, 03:30:43 AM »

Sure. However I am not a fluent Syriac speaker and am trying to get someone more qualified on this thread though. Also because of the controversies the meanings of certain words changed during the debate with the COE. For example, Hypostasis was not used to convey "person" in it's history like it is now being used.
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« Reply #515 on: January 05, 2010, 03:35:39 AM »


Sure. However I am not a fluent Syriac speaker and am trying to get someone more qualified on this thread though. Also because of the controversies the meanings of certain words changed during the debate with the COE. For example, Hypostasis was not used to convey "person" in it's history like it is now being used.

Hmmmmm. I was going to focus on some Aramean terminology. I thought the ACE mostly worked in Syriac and tended to avoid speculating in the Greek. But given that you seem to have stated otherwise, what is the historical understanding of the meaning of hypostasis in the ACE?

Also, what is your preferred title to refer to your church?
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« Reply #516 on: January 05, 2010, 03:40:46 AM »

"Qnome" was very similar in meaning to Hypostasis. The COE was referred to as "Nazarenes" within the Persian Empire and by the Muslims and their Caliphs. Later it became simply "Church of the East" and the present Patriarch added the "Assyrian" part to it to reflect that most of the members are currently ethnic Assyrians (ie: of Iraq). The "Chaldeans" are Assyrians who transferred their allegiance to the Patriarch of Rome instead of the Patriarch of Babylon and also have a few things not allowed in the ACOE like Icons, and a slightly different canon from the ACOE (the last 5 NT books are not in the COE reading cycle but are pious books reccomended for reading and often cited to respect sister churches). The Syriac Orthodox Church followed Cyril's teachings (made popular by Jacob Baradeus) and split from the COE. It's why the SOC is "rum orthodox" (ie: follow the rum, the Romans).
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« Reply #517 on: January 05, 2010, 03:53:49 AM »

"Qnome" was very similar in meaning to Hypostasis. The COE was referred to as "Nazarenes" within the Persian Empire and by the Muslims and their Caliphs. Later it became simply "Church of the East" and the present Patriarch added the "Assyrian" part to it to reflect that most of the members are currently ethnic Assyrians (ie: of Iraq). The "Chaldeans" are Assyrians who transferred their allegiance to the Patriarch of Rome instead of the Patriarch of Babylon and also have a few things not allowed in the ACOE like Icons, and a slightly different canon from the ACOE (the last 5 NT books are not in the COE reading cycle but are pious books reccomended for reading and often cited to respect sister churches). The Syriac Orthodox Church followed Cyril's teachings (made popular by Jacob Baradeus) and split from the COE. It's why the SOC is "rum orthodox" (ie: follow the rum, the Romans).
Uh, no.  The Arab and Middle Eastern resident Greeks are Rum orthodox. The Syriac are "suryaan."  And they weren't "part" of the Assyrian church to break off from it.
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« Reply #518 on: January 05, 2010, 03:56:59 AM »

The "Chaldeans" are Assyrians who transferred their allegiance to the Patriarch of Rome instead of the Patriarch of Babylon and also have a few things not allowed in the ACOE like Icons, and a slightly different canon from the ACOE (the last 5 NT books are not in the COE reading cycle but are pious books reccomended for reading and often cited to respect sister churches).

When did your church stop using icons?
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« Reply #519 on: January 05, 2010, 04:08:13 AM »


"Qnome" was very similar in meaning to Hypostasis.

Could you explain in other words what qnome and hypostasis mean in your tradition? If you can distinguish at all between the two in meaning, that would be helpful, but otherwise just one meaning will be good as well.


The COE was referred to as "Nazarenes" within the Persian Empire and by the Muslims and their Caliphs.

Were there a lot of Jewish Christians in the early COE? (I'm wondering why you were called Nazarenes)


Later it became simply "Church of the East" and the present Patriarch added the "Assyrian" part to it to reflect that most of the members are currently ethnic Assyrians (ie: of Iraq).

Are you aware of the so-called "Orthodox Church of the East"?


It's why the SOC is "rum orthodox" (ie: follow the rum, the Romans).

Are you sure about that? I've only ever heard the Chalcedonians referred to as "rum orthodox".
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« Reply #520 on: January 05, 2010, 04:10:02 AM »


Uh, no.  The Arab and Middle Eastern resident Greeks are Rum orthodox. The Syriac are "suryaan."

That's what I thought...


And they weren't "part" of the Assyrian church to break off from it.

Unless, perhaps, he has a similar ecclesiastically supremacist view as the EO and OO whereby the ACE is the last remaining representation of the original Apostolic faith.
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« Reply #521 on: January 05, 2010, 04:10:44 AM »

The "Chaldeans" are Assyrians who transferred their allegiance to the Patriarch of Rome instead of the Patriarch of Babylon and also have a few things not allowed in the ACOE like Icons, and a slightly different canon from the ACOE (the last 5 NT books are not in the COE reading cycle but are pious books reccomended for reading and often cited to respect sister churches).

When did your church stop using icons?

What makes you think that they started at some point?
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« Reply #522 on: January 05, 2010, 04:42:29 AM »

What makes you think that they started at some point?

How perceptive that you noticed the way that I framed the question.
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« Reply #523 on: January 05, 2010, 04:50:53 AM »

What makes you think that they started at some point?

How perceptive that you noticed the way that I framed the question.

Do I detect sarcasm?
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« Reply #524 on: January 05, 2010, 05:38:49 AM »

The "Chaldeans" are Assyrians who transferred their allegiance to the Patriarch of Rome instead of the Patriarch of Babylon and also have a few things not allowed in the ACOE like Icons, and a slightly different canon from the ACOE (the last 5 NT books are not in the COE reading cycle but are pious books reccomended for reading and often cited to respect sister churches).

When did your church stop using icons?

The Church ogf the East stopped using icons under pressure of conforming to surrounding Islamic society.  I have forgotten what centuries this was taking place.... anybody have a reference about this?    All that remained in the churches were quite simple crosses.

These days Assyrian faithful have icons in their home, the local Assyrian priest has an entire wall of them, but in the church itself he has only some quite plain wooden crosses.
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« Reply #525 on: January 05, 2010, 05:46:15 AM »

The agnus Dei was introduced from Syria, they were all Assyrian. There is no point in searching exceedingly old manuscripts of the COE since it burns its manuscripts whenever they fall in disuse. This is why some of the best manuscripts were brought from the Middle East by Western missionaries, because only newer manuscripts are used. The Genocide of 1915 did not help matters either. We hold the oldest Christian liturgy in use in the ENTIRE world, the Anaphora of Mar Mari and Mar Addai who were disciples of Jesus.

On Papias: he said material was being TRANSLATED. It was his belief that Matthew was in Hebrew, this does not exclude the possibility of more material being in this tongue and being subject to translation.
But you never asserted the possibility that the Gospels of Mark, Luke, and John may have been translated from another language to Greek.  You asserted that Papias said that they definitely were.  Now you're backtracking from your original assertion.  Am I to read this as an admission that you can't prove your initial thesis?
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« Reply #526 on: January 05, 2010, 05:51:07 AM »

Attention all Roman Catholics: by the decree of Mar Papa Nicholas IV in 1288, the Catholicos Patriarch of the East has jurisdiction over ALL Christians of the East, from Baghdad all the way to China. Failure to obey this most holy Papal Bull is reason enough for excommunication.

Thats for you papist  Cheesy
I certainly think this Bull, but I wouldn't call it Papal.
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« Reply #527 on: January 05, 2010, 05:51:16 AM »

King Abgar spoke Aramaic. The Didache was in Aramaic (our Syriac version=correct). I have proof, Eusebius in his history says he translated the letters and other documents from the Edessene Archive.
Well, if Eusebius said this and you have proof that he did, I'm sure you can post this proof here so we can read it ourselves.  Otherwise, you speak as a person with no credibility.

D'oh!  I forgot.  You guys burn evidence.
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« Reply #528 on: January 05, 2010, 06:18:22 AM »


The Church ogf the East stopped using icons under pressure of conforming to surrounding Islamic society.  I have forgotten what centuries this was taking place.... anybody have a reference about this?    All that remained in the churches were quite simple crosses.

These days Assyrian faithful have icons in their home, the local Assyrian priest has an entire wall of them, but in the church itself he has only some quite plain wooden crosses.

Again, I ask, where do you get the idea that the ACE actually did use icons at some point?
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« Reply #529 on: January 05, 2010, 07:37:21 AM »


The Church ogf the East stopped using icons under pressure of conforming to surrounding Islamic society.  I have forgotten what centuries this was taking place.... anybody have a reference about this?    All that remained in the churches were quite simple crosses.

These days Assyrian faithful have icons in their home, the local Assyrian priest has an entire wall of them, but in the church itself he has only some quite plain wooden crosses.

Again, I ask, where do you get the idea that the ACE actually did use icons at some point?

A very small amount of information here, from Irish Melkite...

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?s=4005385ac1dcc5e3af2381dd88ef69ab&p=3145428&postcount=64
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« Reply #530 on: January 05, 2010, 12:40:30 PM »


Uh, no.  The Arab and Middle Eastern resident Greeks are Rum orthodox. The Syriac are "suryaan."

That's what I thought...


And they weren't "part" of the Assyrian church to break off from it.

Unless, perhaps, he has a similar ecclesiastically supremacist view as the EO and OO whereby the ACE is the last remaining representation of the original Apostolic faith.
....and can prove it.
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« Reply #531 on: January 05, 2010, 01:38:32 PM »

I never thought using the native language to translate the gospels and other writings for people was a heresy to the Assyrian Church.

Rafa999, what's your native language?
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« Reply #532 on: January 05, 2010, 02:15:22 PM »

ATTENTION EVERYONE

Please read this page: http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/timothy_i_apology_01_text.htm and please tell me what you think of it. It is a very theologically intense debate between Mahdi, the 3rd Abbasid Caliph and Mar Timothy I, the then Catholicos Patriarch of the COE which took place in 781 CE. If you still have doubts regarding what the COE really believes, and whether their Christology is compatible with EO and OO Christology then this 41 page debate should clear things up for once and for all - everything concerning what the COE really believe about Messiah and the Godhead is covered in there. Aside from a few typos, the fact that qnoma/qnome was mistranslated as person/persons (as usual!), and the uneccessary translation of yodh as iota, this is the real faith of the COE. So please read it and we'll talk.

Shalom.
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« Reply #533 on: January 05, 2010, 02:17:03 PM »

Do EOs view COEs as Christian?
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« Reply #534 on: January 05, 2010, 02:21:12 PM »

I never thought using the native language to translate the gospels and other writings for people was a heresy to the Assyrian Church.

That, alongside Rafa's insistence that God could not become man, makes the COE seem very similar to Islamic beliefs.

It emphasizes God's transcendence over and above his condescension to humanity. EO'y allows both aspects to sit side-by-side in harmony. The Akathist of the Annunciation says: "for thus did God condescend, and not merely descend".
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« Reply #535 on: January 05, 2010, 02:25:21 PM »

I never thought using the native language to translate the gospels and other writings for people was a heresy to the Assyrian Church.

That, alongside Rafa's insistence that God could not become man, makes the COE seem very similar to Islamic beliefs.

It emphasizes God's transcendence over and above his condescension to humanity. EO'y allows both aspects to sit side-by-side in harmony. The Akathist of the Annunciation says: "for thus did God condescend, and not merely descend".
In EO theology did God become incarnate through his Essence? Energies? Both?
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« Reply #536 on: January 05, 2010, 02:27:01 PM »

Rafa, Does the COE believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist?
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« Reply #537 on: January 05, 2010, 02:27:46 PM »

I never thought using the native language to translate the gospels and other writings for people was a heresy to the Assyrian Church.

That, alongside Rafa's insistence that God could not become man, makes the COE seem very similar to Islamic beliefs.

It emphasizes God's transcendence over and above his condescension to humanity. EO'y allows both aspects to sit side-by-side in harmony. The Akathist of the Annunciation says: "for thus did God condescend, and not merely descend".

Read the debate mentioned above between a COE Patriarch and a Muslim Caliph and see for yourself if the COE's beliefs about God are really that similar to the that of the Muslims.
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« Reply #538 on: January 05, 2010, 02:39:00 PM »

It is a very theologically intense debate between Mahdi, the 3rd Abbasid Caliph and Mar Timothy I, the then Catholicos Patriarch of the COE which took place in 781 CE.

First, 781 is certainly after the delusional Muhammad's heresies came to have an overwhelming amount of influence in the region.  I'd hardly call it a "pure" source that shows primitive Nazarene Christianity.

Secondly, why are you using the BCE/CE system?  It was created by apostates and non-Christians as a way to remove the confession of the lordship of Jesus Christ from public dialog.  It is just surprising to me as a confessing "Christian" (I use the quotes only because I know many of you Messianics are not comfortable with all the theological baggage that is attached to it), you would opt for this system.
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« Reply #539 on: January 05, 2010, 02:39:51 PM »

ATTENTION EVERYONE

Please read this page: http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/timothy_i_apology_01_text.htm and please tell me what you think of it. It is a very theologically intense debate between Mahdi, the 3rd Abbasid Caliph and Mar Timothy I, the then Catholicos Patriarch of the COE which took place in 781 CE. If you still have doubts regarding what the COE really believes, and whether their Christology is compatible with EO and OO Christology then this 41 page debate should clear things up for once and for all - everything concerning what the COE really believe about Messiah and the Godhead is covered in there. Aside from a few typos, the fact that qnoma/qnome was mistranslated as person/persons (as usual!), and the uneccessary translation of yodh as iota, this is the real faith of the COE. So please read it and we'll talk.

Shalom.


Nazarene,

I still think you are looking in the wrong place. Most of us are not nearly as concerned about what Mar Timothy in the 8th century or Mar Babai in the 7th century believed as in what Patriarch Dinkha IV and the flock under him believe *now*. To the extent that the current COE points to various historical documents as 'authoritative', then they are useful for understanding this--but only if we understand how the current COE interprets those documents.

To put it another way, the Baptists point to the historical texts of the New Testament and say 'we believe that. Absolutely. 100%'--but when we explore how they interpret those texts we find that how they interpret those texts is not consonant with the Orthodox (and historical) interpretation of those same texts.

So Mar Timothy may or may not have been absolutely 'orthodox' in his beliefs (obviously, I haven't had time to look at the text), but we still have an actual member of the COE making statements that are simply unacceptable from an Orthodox POV. Perhaps Rafa999 misunderstands the actual teachings of his church. Perhaps he is accurately representing the teaching of his church which has lost the understanding held by Mar Timothy. Perhaps you are the one misinterpreting Mar Timothy reading him through the distorting lens of a questionable translation and your own preconceptions. But only reference to what the COE says and teaches now will explain why there is a discrepancy.
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