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Author Topic: The Assyrian Church of the East  (Read 67280 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #450 on: January 04, 2010, 09:16:04 PM »

Again I invoke diagram
Nice diagram, but doesn't answer the question.
Is the Holy Trinity Three Persons or not in your Church?
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« Reply #451 on: January 04, 2010, 09:21:40 PM »

The Holy Trinity is 3 Qnume. The Second Qnume is the pre-incarnate Messiah. If you type the Hebrew equivalent of Qnume (Sephiroth) you will see this is an ancient and attested Christology.
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« Reply #452 on: January 04, 2010, 09:25:46 PM »

The Holy Trinity is 3 Qnume. The Second Qnume is the pre-incarnate Messiah. If you type the Hebrew equivalent of Qnume (Sephiroth) you will see this is an ancient and attested Christology.
So Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not Persons in your Church then. Is this correct?
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« Reply #453 on: January 04, 2010, 09:27:13 PM »

They are 3 Qnume. Three in one, but not persons. Can you say with a straight face that God the Father is a person? Would you call a goldfish a person? No that is incorrect. Talk about natures and individuated instances of that nature (Qnome) but the Person thing is foreign to ancient Syriac Christology.
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« Reply #454 on: January 04, 2010, 09:31:38 PM »

Quote
Firstly, I hight doubt that there is a perfectly accurate manuscript lying around anywhere. Second, what does that have to do with the fact that the New Testament was written in Greek and not aramaic?

Because it wasn't written in Greek. Papias says that at a minimum one of the Gospels was written in Hebrew (Ktav Ashurri script).
But Papias said nothing about any of the other Gospels regarding their original language, so you cannot correctly cite Papias as saying the Gospels were all written in Aramaic.  If you're going to continue arguing that our traditional account is wrong, you're going to have to prove it by showing where Apostolic Fathers positively asserted that the Gospels of Mark, Luke, and John were written in Aramaic.  What you are doing is taking what Papias said about the Gospel of Matthew and applying it to all the Gospels.  That is simply illogical.

So you are saying we lost the scriptures. Satan preserved the quran while God lost his scriptures, satan is more powerful than God more generous to his servants. I cannot believe that.
No, the Scriptures are preserved in the Church's Holy Tradition, which is the Holy Spirit.  Remember that we never did embrace the heresy of sola scriptura as you so often seem to advocate here.
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« Reply #455 on: January 04, 2010, 09:35:52 PM »

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No, the Scriptures are preserved in the Church's Holy Tradition, which is the Holy Spirit.  

Then why do all oral traditions (Roman Catholic, Assyrian, OO, EO, etc.) contradict each other? Tradition does not trump scripture, it is good to CLARIFY scripture, big difference. I am not a Neo-Pharisee.

Quote
What you are doing is taking what Papias said about the Gospel of Matthew and applying it to all the Gospels.  That is simply illogical.

So we lost the original Hebrew/Aramaic Matthew did we ? Shocked

Satan is more powerful than God, he can preserve the "holy" quran used to fill Constantinople's streets with blood and slay one million Assyrians, but God can't preserve his own WORDS?  Huh
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« Reply #456 on: January 04, 2010, 09:37:16 PM »

They are 3 Qnume. Three in one, but not persons. Can you say with a straight face that God the Father is a person?
Yes.
Quote
Would you call a goldfish a person? No that is incorrect. Talk about natures and individuated instances of that nature (Qnome) but the Person thing is foreign to ancient Syriac Christology.
Take a look:
http://thriceholy.net/prosopon.html
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« Reply #457 on: January 04, 2010, 09:42:04 PM »

Let Mar Odisho explain the Holy Trinity for you. I noticed the sun analogy from the Marganitha being used in that website. Further proof the COE taught the Western Church.

Taken from the Book of the Pearl by Mar Odisho:

Quote
CHAPTER V

 On the Trinity

 

Everything that exists must be either a material body whose existence is the subject of accidents and changes, and is acted upon by whatever is opposed to it; or not a body, and consequently not the subject of any of these things. Now, we have already proved, that God (glory be to His incomprehensibility) is not a body and therefore is not subject to anything pertaining to materiality, from which He is infinitely removed. Whatever is immaterial, and not subject to anything appertaining to matter, the traditions of the ancients call Mind. And whatever is exclusive of matter, and of what appertains thereto, must be knowing, and must know himself, because himself is ever present and known to him, and it is not dependent on anything but itself. And whatever knows its essence must be living. Therefore God is Wise and Living. Now, he who is wise discerns because of his wisdom; and he who is living is living because he has life. This is the mystery of the Trinity, which the Church confesses of that Adorable Nature, Mind, Wisdom and Life. Three co-essential properties in One, and One who is glorified in three properties. The Mind (the Church) has called Father and Begetter, because He is the Cause of all, and First. The Son (She) has called Wisdom and Begotten, because He is begotten of the Mind, and by Him everything was made and created. The Life (She) has called, the Holy Spirit and Proceeding, because there is no other Holy Spirit but He. He who is Holy is unchangeable, according to the interpretation of received expositors; and this is that which is declared by John the Divine, the son of Zebedee: “In the beginning was the Word;[4]” and, “the Life is the light of men[5]”. Now in the manner of the soul which is possessed of three-fold energy; mind, word, and life, and is one and not three; even so should we conceive of the THREE IN ONE, ONE IN THREE. The sun also, which is one in its disk, radiance, and heat, is another simile adduced by the second Theologus Paul, the chosen[6] vessel: “He is the brightness of His glory, and the Express Image of His being;[7]” and, again: “Christ, the power of God, and the wisdom[8]of God “. Further, everything that exists is either an accident or a substance. But the Self-existent can in no wise be susceptible of accident. Therefore these three properties are consubstantial and are on this account called (Qnume) hypostasis or substance and not accidental powers, nor do they cause change in the nature of the consubstantial nor plurality; for He is the Mind, the Same He is the Wisdom, the Same He is the Life, Who ever begat without cessation, and puts forth (makes to proceed) without removal from Himself. These things (cessation removal) are infinitely removed from Him for there is no real likeness between created natures and the Nature of the eternally existing and a simile does not in everything resemble that which is compared by it; for then the simile and that which is compared by it would be the thing itself, and we (who have just instituted several comparisons) would not be unlike the man who attempts to compare a thing by the self-same thing. The mystery of the Trinity is expressed in the words of the Old Testament: “Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness;” the occurrence of the letter noon[9]three times in this sentence is an indication of the Trinity. The “Holy” thrice repeated in the seraphic hymn, as mentioned by Isaiah, joined with one “Lord “, attests Three Qnume in One nature. The words of David, also, are of ‘the same import: “By the Word of the Lord were the heavens made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth;” and many other like references. Let the heathen, then, and Jews who rail at the truth of the Catholic Church, on account of her faith in the Trinity, be confounded and put to shame. Here endeth the first part.
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« Reply #458 on: January 04, 2010, 09:42:49 PM »

Three in one, but not persons.
Thank you. This is where our different Faiths diverge.

Can you say with a straight face that God the Father is a person?
I most certainly can. God the Father is a Person, God the Son is a Person, and God the Holy Spirit is a Person.

Would you call a goldfish a person?
Well, I'd certainly call it an hypostasis, which is what I also call each of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. And the Pre-incarnate Logos is the same hypostasis as Jesus of Nazareth.

Talk about natures and individuated instances of that nature (Qnome)  
No thank you. I have no desire to talk about God as some depersonalised "force" or "energy".

the Person thing is foreign to ancient Syriac Christology.
As is apparent.
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« Reply #459 on: January 04, 2010, 09:44:11 PM »

Quote
the Aramaic/Semitic speakers in Palestine and Syria had no problem with Yaldath Alaha, nor did the Armenians, Georgians, Nubians, Ethiopians and Yeminites (the last two also Semites), who lived outside of Rome's control.

That is bogus. Yaldath Alaha sounds very very harsh to a semitic ear,

It's supposed to.  God does ordinarily become Human.  Remember, they threw stones at her Son when He said "before Abraham was, I AM."  But as Orthodox believers, nothing sounds sweeter, including to these Semitic ears.


Quote
it implies an actual origin of the divinity in Mary unlike the innocent sounding "Theotokos".

It's the same thing, just in Greek.


Quote
Also Mother of God is not forbidden in the COE, only its viewed as incomplete unlike "Christotokos" which is complete.

If it was complete, Nestorius imposing it wouldn't have been a problem.


Quote
The fact of the matter is that everybody in the Middle East believed like the COE (including the Armenians Salpy, we have proof that more Armenians were under the COE Jurisdiction than under any other for the middle ages, Armenia was part of the Persian empire) before a mob of monks managed to curry favor with the Romans, institute two fake councils, and split Antiochan Christianity into two halves.
No, we have ample proof of Orthodoxy from the earliest times.  And the COE didn't have a jurisdiction: it was an exarchate (catholicos) of Antioch.  Btw, the record shows that the Sassanids had often favored the Miaphysite Orthodox.
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« Reply #460 on: January 04, 2010, 09:45:48 PM »

The Holy Trinity is 3 Qnume.
But according to the Assyrian definition of "qnoma", if I understand it correctly, this would essentially declare that the "threeness" of the Trinity is in number only--there are three concrete units in the Trinity, but there is otherwise nothing on the order of distinctive characteristics to distinguish one unit of the Trinity (i.e., the Father) from another (i.e., the Son or the Holy Spirit).

I'm sorry, but this strikes me as being too modalistic for me to think of it as Orthodox, for the Orthodox understanding articulated in Nicea and the Ecumenical Councils that follow is that each of the "qnome" of the Trinity, as you call them, has distinctive characteristics that differentiate them one from another.  The Father begets.  The Son is begotten.  The Holy Spirit proceeds.  As such, we would call "qnoma" far too weak a word to describe each of the three persons of the Holy Trinity.  I think this is where the Greek concept of "hypostasis" becomes a much better definition of how we view the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, since "hypostasis" speaks of those specific properties that distinguish one unit of an ousia/kyana from another.
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« Reply #461 on: January 04, 2010, 09:46:27 PM »

Well, the Assyrian Church of the East, being an ancient church does not feel God has a literal "personhood", his person is more abstract. The catechism of the COE clearly states you cannot know the essence of God directly, only via the Messiah our closest point to the most high. Read Mar Odisho's Book. The COE was never under anybody it was always independent, even Pope Nicholas IV of Rome signed a Bull giving it jurisdiction of the entire East, so its too bad you think otherwise Isa.
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« Reply #462 on: January 04, 2010, 09:48:37 PM »

Oh but I can, because all manuscripts before the fourth century show Messiah not God in Acts 20:28,

You haven't produced a single manuscript before the second millenium.  I've provided the text from the fourth century that says "God."

Quote
I have the latin, Antiochan, Greek and Egyptian church fathers quoting my rendering of the scriptures "mysteriously" up to the big Christological controversies post Nicea,

The manuscript I've provided predates Constantinople I, before your "Christological controversies."


Quote
and I have a completely independent tradition (that of Indian Christianity, the St.Thomas Christians who were not under Rome or Persia, and who received their teaching from the apostle Thomas directly) citing my rendering of scriptures. I don't need to be an Aramaic primacist to win this argument.

The Mar Toma Christians were not independent: they alternated between Antioch and then Seleucia-Ctesiphon.  And you haven't provided anything from the Mar Thoma Christians as far as I can recall.
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« Reply #463 on: January 04, 2010, 09:49:54 PM »

Oh but I can, because all manuscripts before the fourth century show Messiah not God in Acts 20:28, I have the latin, Antiochan, Greek and Egyptian church fathers quoting my rendering of the scriptures "mysteriously" up to the big Christological controversies post Nicea, and I have a completely independent tradition (that of Indian Christianity, the St.Thomas Christians who were not under Rome or Persia, and who received their teaching from the apostle Thomas directly) citing my rendering of scriptures.
Isa, can you respond to this?
Done already (and further up the thread): search Sinaiticus.
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« Reply #464 on: January 04, 2010, 09:50:30 PM »

The catechism of the COE clearly states you cannot know the essence of God directly, only via the Messiah our closest point to the most high.
We believe the same, or at least something very similar: we cannot know the essence of God except for what God has revealed to us.  However, we have needed to articulate some of the mystery of what God has revealed of His nature to counter various heresies that have arisen since the time of the Apostles.
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« Reply #465 on: January 04, 2010, 09:53:03 PM »

Oh, and Further, the Patriarchs of Constantinople (Chysostom) and of Rome ( Pope Evaristus (107), Anicetus (168), John V (687) ) to name just a few were often trained by Church of the East Theologians. Should I respect the Masters or the students? Should I mix the new wine into the good old wine, accept spurious new teachings over ancient ones ?

The Pharisees asked the same question.

You keep on calling Chysostom a student, where I have already posted the letters where he was the one who guided Thedore, not the reverse.  The Popes you mention were Greek from Syria, and where not in communion or tutelage to the COE.
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« Reply #466 on: January 04, 2010, 09:55:22 PM »

Quote
the Peshitta reads:ܘܡܠܬܐ ܒܤܪܐ ܗܘܐ ܘܐܓܢ ܒܢ which literally is "Word-the Flesh-the he-was and-he-abided/rested in/by-us

Citing Isa. The word DWELT with us, he did not become us. BIG difference. Of course I believe Jesus is God, I just dont believe his divinity was destroyed, corrupted, or changed. St.Ignatius would support my Christology.
No, he doesn't (it will have to wait, I've got to leave soon).  You skip the "the Word was Flesh" part, which is the heart of the matter.  The original Greek (and the Greek is the original) is more emphatic on that point.
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« Reply #467 on: January 04, 2010, 09:57:13 PM »

The Koine Greek has "Logos" instead of "Miltha"....an equally heavy word! Further Koine Greek is not the original, Papias says the Gospels were written in Hebrew, and knowing that Aramaic and Hebrew both use Ktav Ashurri (Assyrian script) and that Jesus spoke Aramaic as did his audience, I believe he mixed it up with Aramaic (Eusebius the historian made the same mistake, several Church fathers did). So your not finding a way out on this.
Papias says Matthew was written in Hebrew, i.e. in contrast to the other Gospels, written in Greek.  Papias is also informative on St. John in the Greek society of Ephesus.
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« Reply #468 on: January 04, 2010, 09:58:31 PM »

The agnus Dei was introduced from Syria, they were all Assyrian. There is no point in searching exceedingly old manuscripts of the COE since it burns its manuscripts whenever they fall in disuse. This is why some of the best manuscripts were brought from the Middle East by Western missionaries, because only newer manuscripts are used. The Genocide of 1915 did not help matters either. We hold the oldest Christian liturgy in use in the ENTIRE world, the Anaphora of Mar Mari and Mar Addai who were disciples of Jesus.

On Papias: he said material was being TRANSLATED. It was his belief that Matthew was in Hebrew, this does not exclude the possibility of more material being in this tongue and being subject to translation.
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« Reply #469 on: January 04, 2010, 09:59:27 PM »

Quote
the Peshitta reads:ܘܡܠܬܐ ܒܤܪܐ ܗܘܐ ܘܐܓܢ ܒܢ which literally is "Word-the Flesh-the he-was and-he-abided/rested in/by-us

Citing Isa. The word DWELT with us, he did not become us. BIG difference. Of course I believe Jesus is God, I just dont believe his divinity was destroyed, corrupted, or changed. St.Ignatius would support my Christology.
No, he doesn't (it will have to wait, I've got to leave soon).  You skip the "the Word was Flesh" part, which is the heart of the matter.  The original Greek (and the Greek is the original) is more emphatic on that point.

Caught you Isa, you gave the literal rendering of your own Western Syriac. End of matter.
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« Reply #470 on: January 04, 2010, 10:01:08 PM »

So you believe satan preserved the quran but that God was unable to preserve his Words?
No on both counts, but then I've already answered this:
Isa, I like you man. You really are a watchman of the Church keeping an eye out for cunningly devised fables, I really respect that. However you cannot truly believe that only the Greek survived. Are you saying to me that the Muslims can read their Quran in Arabic, the Jews their OT in Hebrew (never mind masoretic corruption later on, they can read it in their script and cultural perspective) but we have to settle for a translaton? Are you saying that the angel of the fiery flame Satan did a better job preserving the Quran than God did preserving HIS scripture? That is totally unfeasible. God allow his words to be destroyed but Satan can preserve the Quran, the Vedas, etc.? No we need to talk more on this...

Actually, I have always believed that because of what you say, Islam, Hinduism etc. and even Judaism are limited, whereas Christianity by its nature is universal, but being bound by a single language.  Even if believed in the primacy of the Peshitta, the OT is still in two other languages, Hebrew and Aramaic.  The Church is spared fundamentalism and literalism by the fact that the Lord's words, with few exceptions, survive only in transaltion.  I believe that is why in part I think the Fathers adopted the LXX, opposed a Hebrew text, besides issues of accuracy.  Btw, I think the Peshitta is somewhat on a par with the Greek Patriarchal Text/textus receptus, as being the expression of the Syriac Orthodox Fathers.

Christ didn't speak Syriac, so the Peshitta doesn't record His very words.  It gives a valuable witness to those words, but how independent is a question.  And then the issue is that St. Paul wrote Greek, as did all the other NT writers except St. Matthew.

It is somewhat like needing the autograph: Muslim belief and Jewish belief requires this, but they cannot have this of their respective scripture.   Where does that leave them?  The Church's textus receptus, in contrast, serves just as well according to her beliefs.

Btw, it can be shown that we neither have the original Arabic of the Quran nor is the Masoretic text the original Hebrew.
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« Reply #471 on: January 04, 2010, 10:01:59 PM »

The fact of the matter is that everybody in the Middle East believed like the COE (including the Armenians Salpy, we have proof that more Armenians were under the COE Jurisdiction than under any other for the middle ages, Armenia was part of the Persian empire)

The Armenians for a long time were split between the Greek (Byzantine, Roman, whatever) empire and the Persian empire, but we had our own catholicoi, many of whom lived within the borders of the Persian empire, but were not in communion with the Persian Church (COE.)
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« Reply #472 on: January 04, 2010, 10:06:31 PM »

Quote
the Peshitta reads:ܘܡܠܬܐ ܒܤܪܐ ܗܘܐ ܘܐܓܢ ܒܢ which literally is "Word-the Flesh-the he-was and-he-abided/rested in/by-us

Citing Isa. The word DWELT with us, he did not become us. BIG difference. Of course I believe Jesus is God, I just dont believe his divinity was destroyed, corrupted, or changed. St.Ignatius would support my Christology.
No, he doesn't (it will have to wait, I've got to leave soon).  You skip the "the Word was Flesh" part, which is the heart of the matter.  The original Greek (and the Greek is the original) is more emphatic on that point.

Caught you Isa, you gave the literal rendering of your own Western Syriac. End of matter.

So? It predates your Khabouris. In fact, Tatian (2nd century) reads "And the Word became flesh, and took up his abode among us"
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf09.iv.iii.iii.html

Your repeating that the present Nestorian Peshitta is the original doesn't make it so, and you have provided no proof, just assertions, until now.  End of matter, unless you can provide proof otherwise.
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« Reply #473 on: January 04, 2010, 10:08:13 PM »

So you believe satan preserved the quran but that God was unable to preserve his Words?
Firstly, I hight doubt that there is a perfectly accurate manuscript of the Koran lying around anywhere. Second, what does that have to do with the fact that the New Testament was written in Greek and not aramaic?
The COE is trying to piggy back, it seems, on Muslim arguments of the superior of the Quran over the NT, which they claim is corrupted.
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« Reply #474 on: January 04, 2010, 10:08:54 PM »

On the Mar Thoma Christians: they chose Seleukia-Ctesiphon to appoint them Bishops for Centuries. Why did the Christians St.Thomas taught appeal to the Church of the East to appoint them Bishops? Maybe because they perceived the COE as more orthodox. Only in the late middle ages did a part of the Mar Thoma Christians fall under the OO, by accident also (they didn't have a bishop, so they appealed to Antioch under the OO). I don't need to "bring" anything from the Mar Thoma Christians as support- when the muslims murdered COE people most of the Bibles were coming from India as support.

Quote
took up his abode among us

What Tatian said. Word=Miltha not person also.

Tatian's work comes from the Eastern Peshitta too.
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« Reply #475 on: January 04, 2010, 10:12:40 PM »

Well, the Assyrian Church of the East, being an ancient church does not feel God has a literal "personhood", his person is more abstract. The catechism of the COE clearly states you cannot know the essence of God directly, only via the Messiah our closest point to the most high. Read Mar Odisho's Book. The COE was never under anybody it was always independent, even Pope Nicholas IV of Rome signed a Bull giving it jurisdiction of the entire East, so its too bad you think otherwise Isa.
Nicholas IV reigned well after the Vatican has left the Orthodox Faith, and had no jurisdiction over anything.  If you want to submit to the Vatican, be my guest, but it has no impression on me.
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« Reply #476 on: January 04, 2010, 10:13:35 PM »

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the Aramaic/Semitic speakers in Palestine and Syria had no problem with Yaldath Alaha, nor did the Armenians, Georgians, Nubians, Ethiopians and Yeminites (the last two also Semites), who lived outside of Rome's control.
The fact of the matter is that everybody in the Middle East believed like the COE...before a mob of monks managed to curry favor with the Romans, institute two fake councils, and split Antiochan Christianity into two halves.

I assume you are talking about Ephesus I and St. Cyril, but I'm not sure.

In any event, it wasn't just St. Cyril who had problems with Theodore's Christology.  The Armenian Catholicos St. Sahag,  who lived within the borders of the Persian empire, and who was Theodore's contemporary, had grave concerns about Theodore's Chrstology.  He wrote against it, and I think some of his writings were even used in the EO's fifth council.  I'm pretty sure this happened prior to Ephesus I.  I know he commissioned St. Mesrob to develop an alphabet for the Armenian language partly out of concern for the problem. 
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« Reply #477 on: January 04, 2010, 10:13:59 PM »

Nicholas IV was a pious wonderful Roman Pope who asserted the COE right to rule over the entire East. You lose man, you lose  angel
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« Reply #478 on: January 04, 2010, 10:15:18 PM »

The agnus Dei was introduced from Syria, they were all Assyrian. There is no point in searching exceedingly old manuscripts of the COE since it burns its manuscripts whenever they fall in disuse.

So it has no proof. End of the matter.


Quote
This is why some of the best manuscripts were brought from the Middle East by Western missionaries, because only newer manuscripts are used. The Genocide of 1915 did not help matters either. We hold the oldest Christian liturgy in use in the ENTIRE world, the Anaphora of Mar Mari and Mar Addai who were disciples of Jesus.

The DL of His brother James at Jerusalem is older.

Quote
On Papias: he said material was being TRANSLATED. It was his belief that Matthew was in Hebrew, this does not exclude the possibility of more material being in this tongue and being subject to translation.
Then there would be nothing unusual to mention with Matthew if everything else was being translated from Aramaic, now would there?
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« Reply #479 on: January 04, 2010, 10:16:02 PM »

Nicholas IV was a pious wonderful Roman Pope who asserted the COE right to rule over the entire East. You lose man, you lose  angel
LOL. I guess Rome has spoken, deluded as ever. Cheesy
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« Reply #480 on: January 04, 2010, 10:16:55 PM »

The Followers of the shoemaker Jacob Baradeus and Pharaoh Cyrus of Alexandria the great have spoken as well.
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« Reply #481 on: January 04, 2010, 10:17:50 PM »

On the Mar Thoma Christians: they chose Seleukia-Ctesiphon to appoint them Bishops for Centuries. Why did the Christians St.Thomas taught appeal to the Church of the East to appoint them Bishops? Maybe because they perceived the COE as more orthodox. Only in the late middle ages did a part of the Mar Thoma Christians fall under the OO, by accident also (they didn't have a bishop, so they appealed to Antioch under the OO). I don't need to "bring" anything from the Mar Thoma Christians as support- when the muslims murdered COE people most of the Bibles were coming from India as support.

Quote
took up his abode among us

What Tatian said. Word=Miltha not person also.

Tatian's work comes from the Eastern Peshitta too.
Tatian predates teh Peshitta, "Eastern or Western," by nearly two centuries.
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« Reply #482 on: January 04, 2010, 10:18:22 PM »

The Followers of the shoemaker Jacob Baradeus and Pharaoh Cyrus of Alexandria the great have spoken as well.
And they are one with the peasant carpenter from Nazareth.
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« Reply #483 on: January 04, 2010, 10:18:44 PM »

Maybe because they perceived the COE as more orthodox.

Strange, I don't recall that word being a self-identifier for you Assyrians.
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« Reply #484 on: January 04, 2010, 10:19:26 PM »

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peasant carpenter from Nazareth

You mean Master Mason of the Temple with Royal Bloodline with that right?  Grin
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« Reply #485 on: January 04, 2010, 10:31:53 PM »

Nicholas IV was a pious wonderful Roman Pope who asserted the COE right to rule over the entire East. You lose man, you lose  angel

I'm sorry, but I am not sure I understand you.  Are you saying that a Roman Pope gave the Persian Church the right to rule over the Armenians?  That's absolute nonsense.  Even if some Roman Pope had made such a decree it would have had no force or effect with the Armenians. No Roman Pope ever had jurisdiction over our Catholicoi.   
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« Reply #486 on: January 04, 2010, 10:56:38 PM »

Attention all Roman Catholics: by the decree of Mar Papa Nicholas IV in 1288, the Catholicos Patriarch of the East has jurisdiction over ALL Christians of the East, from Baghdad all the way to China. Failure to obey this most holy Papal Bull is reason enough for excommunication.

Thats for you papist  Cheesy
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« Reply #487 on: January 04, 2010, 11:22:18 PM »

The DL of His brother James at Jerusalem is older.

Every Liturgical scholar I am familiar with concede the oldest extant Liturgy to Mar Addai and Mari, dating it to 3rd century, that of St. James to the 4th. 
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« Reply #488 on: January 04, 2010, 11:26:07 PM »

Thank you Deacon Lance, once again your on the winning side. Anybody can compare the two liturgies and see which one is older. And lets remember: the COE burns old manuscripts so they don't get misread during its services or somehow corrupted. You can argue thats "burning evidence" but thats what a semitic congregation did in ancient times

and to Salpy:

Quote
I know he commissioned St. Mesrob to develop an alphabet for the Armenian language partly out of concern for the problem.  

This is exactly what the masoretes did to the Torah- they knew changing the text would be too outrageous so they changed the meaning of words, created entire new systems of intonation of the vowels and how to write the pointers so as to change the meaning of scripture in their rabbinical schools. How do I know your St.Mesrob did not do the same to your Armenian language, script, etc.? How do I know Armenians didn't believe exactly like the COE before this? I know of Historical records which show very similar beliefs to that of the COE in the middle ages. Armenia was part of Persia and the foreign bishops were murdered by the Sassanids (they were paranoid of non-COE Christians and very persecuting to Christians in general), so who were you under?
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« Reply #489 on: January 04, 2010, 11:39:07 PM »

Rafa,

There are no sides.  One need not degrade another's tradition in order to uphold their own.  A little less combativeness and a little more dialogue would serve you well.  We are all servants of Christ here.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #490 on: January 04, 2010, 11:40:53 PM »

Sorry. I'm just being "combative" so as to wake up people here, that there's no such thing as "the heretical Nestorian church" that there are good reasons why the COE took certain positions historically, and so forth. No "degrading" we are all brothers here.
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« Reply #491 on: January 04, 2010, 11:59:05 PM »

and to Salpy:

Quote
I know he commissioned St. Mesrob to develop an alphabet for the Armenian language partly out of concern for the problem.  

This is exactly what the masoretes did to the Torah- they knew changing the text would be too outrageous so they changed the meaning of words, created entire new systems of intonation of the vowels and how to write the pointers so as to change the meaning of scripture in their rabbinical schools. How do I know your St.Mesrob did not do the same to your Armenian language, script, etc.?

During the time in question, late fourth and early fifth centuries, the Persians had laws actually forbidding people from possessing writings that were in the Greek language.  Since the Armenians up to that time had no alphabet of their own, that left them with only Syriac manuscripts, written by members of the Persian Church (COE.)  The leading COE theologian at that time was Theodore, whose Christology was found to be problematic by the Armenian Catholicos, St. Sahag.  That is why he had an alphabet developed by St. Mesrob.  He wanted to be able to translate and bring in theological writings from other traditions besides the COE.  He also wanted the Armenians to be able to write down their own tradition, translate the liturgy and Bible into Armenian, etc. 

St. Sahag did not have the alphabet developed so he could "change the meaning of scripture." That's not only insulting, but it's also something you could never substantiate.

Quote
How do I know Armenians didn't believe exactly like the COE before this?  I know of Historical records which show very similar beliefs to that of the COE in the middle ages. Armenia was part of Persia and the foreign bishops were murdered by the Sassanids, so who were you under?

The Armenians have had their own Catholicoi since the time of St. Gregory the Illuminator in the early 300's.  Our Catholicoi have never been under the jurisdiction of the COE.  There is absolutely nothing to substantiate your assertion that the Armenians ever had a Theodorean Christology.  If that had been the case, St. Sahag would not have been so disturbed about the writings of Theodore.  I'd like to see your "Historical records" from the Middile Ages.
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« Reply #492 on: January 05, 2010, 12:05:18 AM »

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That is why he had an alphabet developed by St. Mesrob.  He wanted to be able to translate and bring in theological writings from other traditions besides the COE.

He wanted to innovate is that correct? He decided his people needed a "New" script to read the scriptures instead of sticking to the Syriac, am I correct? Even though Aramaic was the lingua franca of the Middle East much like Greek in Byzantium. He needed other traditions from the West which was at that time suffering under the much disputed heresies I mentioned to invade his domain is that it? He preferred to invent a new language rather than read in Syriac which is nearly identical to the language of Jesus? Sounds pretty suspicious to me...

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« Reply #493 on: January 05, 2010, 12:06:09 AM »

The DL of His brother James at Jerusalem is older.

Every Liturgical scholar I am familiar with concede the oldest extant Liturgy to Mar Addai and Mari, dating it to 3rd century, that of St. James to the 4th. 
The present form of the DL of Mar Addai and Mari dates to the 6th cent.  The catachesis of St. Cyril of Jerusalem (mid 4th) parrallels the text of St. James, which is attested in Coptic, Syriac, Georgian as well as Greek, and elaborate in each.
http://books.google.com/books?id=0RanQa-mLTwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Liturgy+Mari+and+Addai&source=gbs_similarbooks_s&cad=1#v=onepage&q=Liturgy%20Mari%20and%20Addai&f=false
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« Reply #494 on: January 05, 2010, 12:14:44 AM »

Quote
That is why he had an alphabet developed by St. Mesrob.  He wanted to be able to translate and bring in theological writings from other traditions besides the COE.

He wanted to innovate is that correct? He decided his people needed a "New" script to read the scriptures instead of sticking to the Syriac, am I correct? Even though Aramaic was the lingua franca of the Middle East much like Greek in Byzantium. He needed other traditions from the West which was at that time suffering under the much disputed heresies I mentioned to invade his domain is that it? He preferred to invent a new language rather than read in Syriac which is nearly identical to the language of Jesus? Sounds pretty suspicious to me...



St. Sahag was not innovating.  He was trying to protect his people from the Theodorean heresy.  As part of the process, he wanted to see what others in the Christian world were writing about Christ.  That's called doing research.  It's not innovating.  He also was not inventing a new language.  He was getting an alphabet for the Armenian language, which already existed.

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