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Author Topic: Latest Edition Of Again Magazine  (Read 3842 times) Average Rating: 0
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Bono Vox
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« on: July 16, 2006, 05:00:52 PM »

I don't know if any of you have read the latest edition of Again Magazine; the topic is Orthodox unity in America. It is an awesome edition!!! I especially liked what Metropolitian Philip and Father Thomas Hopko had to say. Metropolitian Philip espouseed bringing the ecumenical Patriarch to America. Father Hopko said that it is going to be up to the American Bishops, Clergy, and Laity to get an American church; that it we will never be given one by the mother churches. Father Hopko almost sounds prophetic in his interview.
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« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2006, 06:32:41 PM »

Father Hopko said that it is going to be up to the American Bishops, Clergy, and Laity to get an American church; that it we will never be given one by the mother churches.
Oh dear. Just what the Church needs. Yet another schismatic church declaring it's own autocephaly..... Roll Eyes
It astounds me that people like Fr. Hopko wish to distance themselves from what they call the "ethnic" Churches by establishing a schismatic, ethnic Church themselves!
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« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2006, 06:51:56 PM »

Oh dear. Just what the Church needs. Yet another schismatic church declaring it's own autocephaly..... Roll Eyes
It astounds me that people like Fr. Hopko wish to distance themselves from what they call the "ethnic" Churches by establishing a schismatic, ethnic Church themselves!

Fr Hopko is a priest in the OCA, whose mother church declared its autocephaly over three decades ago. There's no need for anyone to declare their own autocephaly.
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« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2006, 08:23:24 PM »

I read Fr. Hopko's interview and found it critical of the Orthodox Church in the US until "the converts" arrived.  The convert's bring new life -- yes, but also a new set of problems. They forget that the Orthodox Church wouldn't be here in the USA for them to discover if the ethnic peoples that they are -- pick one - ashamed of, or despise, weren't here preserving it. I hate it when these people question the piety of existing cradle Orthodox and praise the new converts, particularly ex-evangelicals, who in some cases are creating their own ethnic ghettos..

Forgive my rant
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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2006, 08:48:01 PM »

Its unfortunate when converts start developing attitude.  A lack of humility which is really unfortunate.

All churches suffer from the cradle problem.  Even the new non-denom, make it up as you go alongs, will ultimately suffer from it, too.  I am happy to say that at our new parish, while we clearly have the "cradle" problem, there are also many families that are quite devout and whom we can look to as our "guides" in this new faith.

I read Fr. Hopko's interview and found it critical of the Orthodox Church in the US until "the converts" arrived.  The convert's bring new life -- yes, but also a new set of problems. They forget that the Orthodox Church wouldn't be here in the USA for them to discover if the ethnic peoples that they are -- pick one - ashamed of, or despise, weren't here preserving it. I hate it when these people question the piety of existing cradle Orthodox and praise the new converts, particularly ex-evangelicals, who in some cases are creating their own ethnic ghettos..

Forgive my rant
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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2006, 09:28:25 PM »

I read Fr. Hopko's interview and found it critical of the Orthodox Church in the US until "the converts" arrived.  The converts bring new life -- yes, but also a new set of problems. They forget that the Orthodox Church wouldn't be here in the USA for them to discover if the ethnic peoples that they are -- pick one - ashamed of, or despise, weren't here preserving it. I hate it when these people question the piety of existing cradle Orthodox and praise the new converts, particularly ex-evangelicals, who in some cases are creating their own ethnic ghettos.

I find it quite amazing that jurisdictions put effort in well established church from their old country. Whether or not that would be the OCA or specifically Antiochian within the 10-30 or so years of gaining independence. A great amount of gratitude should be put forth to the one who came to this country wanting to work hard for future immigrants. Many small parishes from Chicago, California, Florida, Washington D.C and New York founded by immigrants have dealt their Dioceses makes mistakes from from separating communities in the ANT or the OCA jumping ahead on the decision of autocephaly without the consent of the other jurisdictions. By 1974 The OCA had over 543 mission churches, more clergy and a strong faithful community, whose ethnic diversity just proves that instead of ghettos it's streets are of economic provision for newly established departments like liturgical music and funding for the clergy.
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« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2006, 01:09:10 AM »

The cannons state that there are to be no overlapping jurisdicitions. One bishop for one city. It is time for one American Orthodox church, and God willing our own Patriarch.  No more ethnic gettohs. This is not the way of the church. In my own observation, I think that the growth towards unity is growing more and more, year by year, because most Othodox are sick of the current situation. I hope to see an official American Orthodox church in our lifetime; I believe that it is possible.
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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2006, 06:49:14 AM »

It is time for one American Orthodox church, and God willing our own Patriarch.
One bishop for each American city would be fine, but why do you need a Patriarch?
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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2006, 07:07:59 AM »

One bishop for each American city would be fine, but why do you need a Patriarch?

Yeah, I'm not too clear on why we need a Patriarch, either.  It seems like linking unity with a patriarchate makes unity more difficult to achieve.
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« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2006, 09:29:15 AM »

We don't even need to make a new patriarch, we simply move the EP to America and we can all unite under him, no problems, seemless execution, everyone is happy. We're united under the EP which some people want, we have the Patriarch here, which other people want, and we have a church in America that is free from ties to a foreign country, but rather gets its make up from many foreign countries in one nation. Who doesn't want that?

-Nick
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« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2006, 09:34:03 AM »

We don't even need to make a new patriarch, we simply move the EP to America and we can all unite under him, no problems, seemless execution, everyone is happy. We're united under the EP which some people want, we have the Patriarch here, which other people want, and we have a church in America that is free from ties to a foreign country, but rather gets its make up from many foreign countries in one nation. Who doesn't want that?

-Nick

Met. Philip has stated this possibility before, to his credit. But the EP will not abandon his see, to his credit. We're just going to have to live as good Orthodox and let the rest take care of itself, I'm afraid.
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« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2006, 09:34:53 AM »

We don't even need to make a new patriarch, we simply move the EP to America and we can all unite under him, no problems, seemless execution, everyone is happy. We're united under the EP which some people want, we have the Patriarch here, which other people want, and we have a church in America that is free from ties to a foreign country, but rather gets its make up from many foreign countries in one nation. Who doesn't want that?

I can see the arguments for either side on the subject of the EP moving here.  On the one hand, him moving here would get him out from under the Turks' oppression, which would presumably allow him to advocate for the remaining Greeks far more freely, since he wouldn't have to worry about reprisals against him.  He could also actually keep his churches and such in good repair without interference.  But....if he stays, he's shepherding what's left of his local flock directly, which he wouldn't be able to do from here.  With him staying under that oppression, it draws attention to it and provides an Orthodox witness of suffering for the sake of the Gospel.
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« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2006, 10:14:36 AM »

With him staying under that oppression, it draws attention to it and provides an Orthodox witness of suffering for the sake of the Gospel.

Yes. And it's part of his ministry. Orthodox bishops are charged with the salvation of everyone is their see (indirectly, everyone) - those in the Church and those without. Th EP has 60-80 million potential converts where he is. Sure, the Turks will probably never grow up, but they are mostly (whether they like it or not) descended from apostate Christians who converted to Islam. Time to come home.
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2006, 04:56:04 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9532.msg128015#msg128015 date=1153145676]
Yes. And it's part of his ministry. Orthodox bishops are charged with the salvation of everyone is their see (indirectly, everyone) - those in the Church and those without. Th EP has 60-80 million potential converts where he is. Sure, the Turks will probably never grow up, but they are mostly (whether they like it or not) descended from apostate Christians who converted to Islam. Time to come home.[/quote]

Time to wake up and start living once again in the real world instead on the glories of the past.

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« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2006, 06:22:41 PM »

Time to wake up and start living once again in the real world instead on the glories of the past.

St John of Chicago was able to reunite countless Uniates to the Faith. Would you have accused him of ignoring the real world?
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« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2006, 06:33:33 PM »

You know, recently I was reading something in USA Today about how now that the Dalai Lama is becoming older and nearer death, how this is causing problems for many Tibetians.  First of all, when he dies, the Gov't in Exile will loose even more credibility, Secondly, It will be harder for people to pay attention to Tibet.  Assuming the next Dalai comes from India, what connections does he have to the suffering of Tibet?  Also, it's feared that many Tibetains are loosing faith in the Dalai Lama as he is no longer there.  Personally, I can see many of these affecting Constantinople in a similar manner.  The Orthodox Church at least has its foot in the door in Constnatinople.  If it removes it, that door is going to slam shut.  Secondly, him being there highlights the injustices of the Turks, as would the next Patriarch.  It would be easy to forget about him if he was in NY or DC.  Third, the Patriarch of Constantinople is in Constantinople.  We Orthodox stick closely to our tradition.  It makes since for the First among Equals to stay in his City.  Now, I'll admit that I don't always agree with everything His Holiness does, but I still have respect for his position.  He also has a responsibility to maintain his flock in New Rome.  That is just as good of a reason.  Remember, the we rejoice when the shepard recovers one lost sheep.  This, of course, fails to mention, as someone else did, the amounts of converts and just the history in Asia Minor.  When the Muslim Mennace is on the rise, this is NOT the time to retreat but hold our ground.  Finially, having the Patriarch in America could explode a potential powder keg in America jurisdiction wise.  While, I personally, have reservations on different claims, I do recogonize that each one does do good and that we are at least talking with each other and concelebrating.  Having the EP here could easily drive a situation into schism and unChristian behaviour.
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« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2006, 07:43:31 PM »

St. John of Chicago was dealing with people who already had a Christian background. Muslims do not have this and after several centuries have become opposed to Christianity.
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« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2006, 08:37:20 PM »

St. John of Chicago was dealing with people who already had a Christian background. Muslims do not have this and after several centuries have become opposed to Christianity.

Sounds a lot like the Romans, but we didn't have any problem with the idea of preaching to them.
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« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2006, 10:41:16 AM »

I can see the arguments for either side on the subject of the EP moving here.  On the one hand, him moving here would get him out from under the Turks' oppression, which would presumably allow him to advocate for the remaining Greeks far more freely, since he wouldn't have to worry about reprisals against him.  He could also actually keep his churches and such in good repair without interference.  But....if he stays, he's shepherding what's left of his local flock directly, which he wouldn't be able to do from here.  With him staying under that oppression, it draws attention to it and provides an Orthodox witness of suffering for the sake of the Gospel.


So from the way I read this, we're using the EP as a marketing tool to get people to sympathize with the orthodox who are left in the holy land?
That doesn't sound very orthodox.... (I don't mean any disrespect or insult, just a simple question)  Smiley
-Nick
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« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2006, 10:50:26 AM »

So from the way I read this, we're using the EP as a marketing tool to get people to sympathize with the orthodox who are left in the holy land?
That doesn't sound very orthodox.... (I don't mean any disrespect or insult, just a simple question)ÂÂ  Smiley

I think the, uh, "marketing tool" aspect would be more of a side effect of the EP ministering to the faithful who remain.  I certainly wouldn't advocate sending someone into hostile territory to be oppressed for the sole purpose of publicity, but when oppression is one of the risks of carrying out a very vital witness, I don't see what the problem would be with attention being brought to that injustice.
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« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2006, 10:33:18 AM »

In Metropolitian Philip's article (it's actually his homily he gave). Here is the article

Once every year, on the Sunday of Orthodoxy, the Orthodox people in North America emerge from their ethnic islands to celebrate the triumph of the Orthodox Faith over the iconoclastic heresy. This victory happened in the year 787 A.D., one thousand, one hundred ninety-seven years ago. The icons were restored to the Church after much suffering, much bloodshed and much sacrifice. We are indeed grateful to the Church of the Eighth Century, for her courage to stand against emperors and governments in order to defend the faith, “which once and for all was delivered to the saints,” (Jude 3). Heroes such as John of Damascus, Theodore the Studite, Patriarch Germanos and Patriarch Nicephorus will live in the memory of the Church forever.

It is not my intention today, to elaborate on the historical circumstances which led to the iconoclastic controversy, nor will I attempt to present a new theology in defense of the holy icons. I doubt if anyone can add much to the brilliant thoughts of St. John of Damascus on this subject. I am not trying, by any means, to minimize the historical events which led to this Orthodox victory in 787 A.D. I am proud of our history; for those who have no past, have no present and will have no future. There is a difference, however, between contemplating history and worshipping history.

During the first one thousand years of her existence, the Church was courageous enough to respond to the challenges of her time. Many local councils were called and seven ecumenical councils were convened to deal with important issues which the Church had to face. The question now is: What happened to that dynamism which characterized the life of the Church between Pentecost and the Tenth century? Did God stop speaking to the Church? Did the action of the Holy Spirit in the Church cease after the Tenth century? Why are we always celebrating the remote past? Have we been lost in our long, long history? I wish we could gather to celebrate an event which happened five hundred years ago or two hundred years ago or perhaps, something which happened last year.

In the Gospel of St. John, our Lord said: “My father is working still and I am working, (John 5:17). Thus, we cannot blame God or the Holy Spirit for our inaction. History, from a Christian perspective, is a dynamic process because it is the arena of God’s action in the past as well as in the present. But, if we do not fully, creatively and faithfully respond to the divine challenge, no change can be effected in our Church, values and human situation. Our forefathers, motivated by the power of the Holy Spirit, have fought valiantly and triumphantly against iconoclasm and all kinds of heresies; but the triumphalism of the past will not save us from the sterility of the present and the uncertainty of the future.

It is indeed astonishing that we have not had an Ecumenical Council since 787 A.D. despite the many changes which the Church has encountered during the past one thousand, one hundred ninety-seven years. I shall mention but a few of these global events which affected the life of the Church directly or indirectly since the last Ecumenical Council:

The 1054 Schism between East and West.
The fall of Constantinople.
The European Renaissance with all its implications.
The Protestant Reformation.
The Discovery of the New World.
The French Revolution.
The Industrial Revolution.
The Communist Revolution and its impact on the Orthodox Church.
The First and Second World Wars.
The Dawning of the Nuclear Age.
The exploration of space and all the scientific and technological discoveries which baffle the mind.

Despite all these significant events which have deeply touched our lives, we Orthodox are still debating whether or not we should convene the Eighth Ecumenical Council. A few days ago, I was glancing through the 1932 Arabic issue of THE WORD magazine and came across the following news item, entitled:

“Pan Orthodox Consultations for an Ecumenical Council Were Postponed.” The news item continues: “The Orthodox world was expecting that the representatives of the Orthodox Churches would meet on Mount Athos during the Pentecost Season in June of this year for serious preparation for the Great Ecumenical Council. There was great concern as to what the Pan Orthodox consultations would decide regarding important and urgent issues facing the Church. What a disappointment to have learned that the meeting was postponed to the forthcoming year.” That meeting never took place, and I doubt if an Ecumenical Council will be convened in the foreseeable future.

You might ask, what is the reason behind this Orthodox stagnation? Did our history freeze after 787 A.D.? There is no doubt that the rise of Islam, the collapse of the Byzantine Empire, and the fall of Czarist Russia have contributed much to our past and present stagnation. The sad condition of our Mother Churches across the ocean is indicative of this reality. The Patriarchate of Jerusalem is living under the heel of a Zionist state. The Coptic Orthodox Patriarch of Egypt is still living under house arrest. And, what can I say about Antioch? If I may paraphrase the biblical words, I would say the following:

“A voice was heard in Lebanon, wailing and lamentation — Antioch weeping for her children; she refused to be consoled because they were no more,” (Matt. 2:18). The Church of Cyprus is suffering the consequences of a badly and sadly divided island. The Ecumenical Patriarchate is slowly, but surely dying from Turkish oppression. Furthermore, the Patriarchate of Moscow and those of Eastern Europe continue to suffer under the yoke of communism. Have we then lost all hope for an Orthodox renaissance? Is there not a place on this planet where we can dream of a better Orthodox future? I believe that there is a place, and this place is the North American continent. We have a tremendous opportunity in this land to dream dreams and see visions; only if we can put our house in order. Where in the whole world today, can you find seven million free Orthodox except in North America? We are no longer a church of immigrants; the first Orthodox liturgy was celebrated in this country before the American Revolution. Many of our Orthodox young people have died on the battlefields of various wars, defending American ideals and principles. We have contributed much to the success of this country in the fields of medicine, science, technology, government, education, art, entertainment and business. We consider ourselves Americans and we are proud of it, except when we go to church, we suddenly become Greeks, Russians, Arabs, Albanians and so forth. Despite our rootedness in the American soil, our Church in North America is still divided into more than fourteen jurisdictions, contrary to our Orthodox ecclesiology and Canon Law which forbid the multiplicity of jurisdictions in the same territory.

Individually, Orthodox jurisdictions have done much for themselves. We have some of the finest theological institutions in the world. We have excellent religious publications. Many volumes have been written in English on Orthodox theology. We have some of the best Christian Education programs. Our clergy are highly educated and deeply committed to the Orthodox Faith. We have built multi-million dollar churches and cathedrals and our laity are well organized and have contributed generously to the financial and spiritual well being of our parishes. Collectively, however, we have not been able to rise above our ethnicity and work together with one mind and one accord for the glory of Orthodoxy. Our efforts continue to be scattered in different directions. Why should we have fifteen departments for Christian Education, Media Relations, Sacred Music, Youth Ministry, Clergy pensions and so forth? Where is our spiritual and moral impact on the life of this nation? Where is our voice in the media? Why is it that every time there is a moral issue to be discussed, a Protestant, a Roman Catholic and a Jew are invited for such discussions? How can we explain our Orthodox absence despite the authenticity of our theology and moral teachings? The answer to these disturbing questions is simple; it is ethnicism. Unfortunately, we have permitted ourselves to become victims of our ethnic mentalities. We cannot be agents of change in full obedience to the truth unless we transcend ethnicism and establish a new Orthodox reality in North America. I am not asking you to deny your own history and your own culture. What I am asking is to blend your old and new cultures into some kind of an integrated reality. I am not against ethnicism, if ethnicism means a return to the spirit of the desert fathers, the Syrian fathers, the Greek fathers and the Slavic fathers. But if ethnicism means a narrow, fanatic, Ghetto mentality which separates us from each other, then I am definitely against such ethnicism. The mission of the Church is not to be subservient to any kind of nationalism. The mission of the Church is the salvation of souls — all souls. In his Epistle to the Galatians, St. Paul said: “There is neither Jew, nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for all are one in Christ Jesus,” (Gal. 3:28).

Brothers and Sisters in Orthodoxy,

I have shared with you some of my reflections on our past and present, success and failure. I would like to share with you, now, some daring visions about the future. My first vision concerns the role of our Orthodox laity in this relentless quest for Orthodox unity. After eighteen years in the Episcopate, I have become convinced that Orthodox unity in North America must begin on the grass roots level. You, the laity, are the conscience of the Church and the defenders of the Faith. Consequently, I would like to see a strong Pan-Orthodox lay movement, totally dedicated to the cause of Orthodox unity. Without the laity, our churches would be empty and our liturgical and sacramental services would be in vain. The clergy and laity, working together, are the “LAOS TOU THEOU,” the people of God, and they constitute the Orthodox Church.

My second vision concerns the Standing Conference of Orthodox Bishops in America (SCOBA). Since the purpose of SCOBA is to bring organic unity to our churches in America, I believe that SCOBA should be elevated to the rank of an Orthodox Synod which will have the power to deal effectively and decisively with our Orthodox problems in this country.

My third vision, ladies and gentlemen, concerns the Ecumenical Patriarchate. There is no doubt that we need a catalyst to lead us from the wilderness of division to the promised land of unity and fulfillment. I do not know of a better catalyst than the Ecumenical Patriarch, himself, who continues to live like a prisoner in Istanbul. Let us prevail on him to leave Turkey, come to America and unite our various jurisdictions under his wings. The Greek remnant in Istanbul can be shepherded by an exarch who would represent the ecumenical throne. The Ecumenical Patriarch will preserve his traditional role in the world regardless of where he resides. We have unlimited opportunities in this free land, but if we do not move forward with faith and courage, our Church on this continent will remain an insignificant dot on the margin of history.

Finally, I would like to conclude this sermon with the words of the late Alexander Schmemann. “One can almost visualize the glorious and blessed day when forty Orthodox bishops of America will open their first Synod in New York, or Chicago or Pittsburgh with the hymn, ‘Today the grace of the Holy Spirit assembled us together,’ and will appear to us not as ‘representatives’ of Greek, Russian or any other ‘jurisdictions,’ and interests but as the very icon, the very ‘Epiphany’ of our unity within the Body of Christ; when each of them and all together will think and deliberate only in terms of the whole, putting aside all particular and national problems, real and important as they may be. On that day, we shall ‘taste and see’ the oneness of the Orthodox Church in America.”

Metropolitan PHILIP was the celebrant and speaker at the Sunday of Orthodoxy Liturgy, sponsored by the Council of Eastern Orthodox Churches of Central Massachusetts, on March 11, 1984.



I think that Metropolitian Philip is right on as always. I think he gives a good reason for bringing the EP over here. He says

Quote
My third vision, ladies and gentlemen, concerns the Ecumenical Patriarchate. There is no doubt that we need a catalyst to lead us from the wilderness of division to the promised land of unity and fulfillment. I do not know of a better catalyst than the Ecumenical Patriarch, himself, who continues to live like a prisoner in Istanbul. Let us prevail on him to leave Turkey, come to America and unite our various jurisdictions under his wings. The Greek remnant in Istanbul can be shepherded by an exarch who would represent the ecumenical throne. The Ecumenical Patriarch will preserve his traditional role in the world regardless of where he resides. We have unlimited opportunities in this free land, but if we do not move forward with faith and courage, our Church on this continent will remain an insignificant dot on the margin of history.

The Greek remnant in Istanbul can be shepherded by an exarch who represents the ecumenica throne. It would be a great opportunity to unite the Orthodox over here, and spread the gospel in America.
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« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2006, 11:09:15 AM »

I respect Met Philip very much. But the EP will not move.

I won't get into the status of our 8th and 9th Councils again; the debate is elsewhere here.

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« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2006, 02:34:55 PM »

The EP will not move and yet we wonder why people won't give up their nationalistic church in favor of a united church? I feel in disagreement with Met. Phillip that it doesn't need to start at the bottom, it needs to start at the TOP. The hierarchy must unite before the people will. Its much easier to get the hierarchs together than the millions of Orthodox.

-Nick
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« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2006, 05:25:15 PM »

The EP will not move and yet we wonder why people won't give up their nationalistic church in favor of a united church? I feel in disagreement with Met. Phillip that it doesn't need to start at the bottom, it needs to start at the TOP. The hierarchy must unite before the people will. Its much easier to get the hierarchs together than the millions of Orthodox.

-Nick

I get a bit tired of this 'nationalistic church'-thing instead of ,what, an American church? What would that look like, what would that be? Would suddenly, with one administrative jurisdiction, all the ethnicity in our parishes disappear, or be replaced by an undefined American-ness?
When I go to a Ukrainian parish, or a Greek one, or Carpatho-Russian, Russian, Antiochian, who is standing next to me?   Americans.
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« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2006, 07:08:44 PM »

Quote
I get a bit tired of this 'nationalistic church'-thing instead of ,what, an American church? What would that look like, what would that be? Would suddenly, with one administrative jurisdiction, all the ethnicity in our parishes disappear, or be replaced by an undefined American-ness?
When I go to a Ukrainian parish, or a Greek one, or Carpatho-Russian, Russian, Antiochian, who is standing next to me?   Americans

Orthodoxy is percieved by the vast majority of americans as being a primairily ethnic church. The church will not be as effective in evangelizing america with this noose around our necks. Also, it is un-orthodox to have overlaping jurisdictions. It should be one bishop for one city; the situation we have goes against the cannons.

I just don't understand the people who are satisfied with the ethnic gettohs of orthodoxy. An american church would look like america; a blend of different cultures united working together. The overlaping jurisdictions gets in the way of full orthodox unity.

Also, I am an american. I love my greek, russian, romanian, ect... orthodox brethren, and I appreciate their cultures; however, I don't want to be greek, russian, romanian, ect... I love being an american. It is who I am. Most american converts don't want to loose their heritage, and many people believe that they are going to have to become "greek" or "russian" to be orthodox.

Each orthodox culture, while sharing the same faith and liturgy, also has it's own style of orthodoxy that makes it unique to their culture. This is what American Orthodoxy needs as well.
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« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2006, 07:50:56 PM »

Forgeting of course, that most Protestant churches here are direct descendents (or offshoots of) ethnic churches as well.
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« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2006, 08:55:25 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9532.msg128240#msg128240 date=1153353056]
Forgeting of course, that most Protestant churches here are direct descendents (or offshoots of) ethnic churches as well.
[/quote]

Yes, they have, but they have "gotten over" the ethnic thing.  People converting to Lutheranism or Anglicanism know they don't have to be German or English - most are hardly aware of those origens anymore.

Orthodox Churches in the USA though frequently don't get it though - they think you still need to become Greek/Russian/etc.
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« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2006, 09:20:40 PM »

Be patient. We haven't been here THAT long. In the last forty years I've seen this diminish - and more so in the last 10-15 yrs.
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« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2006, 09:40:41 PM »

Something to keep in mind is that it is not just the ethnic/cradle Orthodox that are doing this, there are parishes out there that if you are not a convert from evangical protestantism you are not welcome.  I saw a really sad case of converts treating the Arabs very poorly at an Antiochian parish here.  That's just as bad as the ethnic parishes making sure the convert forever remains a ξένος.   
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« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2006, 10:32:02 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9532.msg128218#msg128218 date=1153344315]
I get a bit tired of this 'nationalistic church'-thing instead of ,what, an American church? What would that look like, what would that be? Would suddenly, with one administrative jurisdiction, all the ethnicity in our parishes disappear, or be replaced by an undefined American-ness?
When I go to a Ukrainian parish, or a Greek one, or Carpatho-Russian, Russian, Antiochian, who is standing next to me?  ÃƒÆ’‚ Americans.
[/quote]

Then if we aren't going to call it a nationalistic church then what do you call all the different jurisdictions in America?

-nick
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« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2006, 10:36:54 PM »


the BIG elephant in the room, folks, is ethnicity

so high you can't get over it, so low you can't get under it, so wide you can't get around it...


When I was a Reformed Presbyterian, it was your theology that defined you not whether you were Scottish

Met. Philip is right on; some day he will be seen as a prophet to N. American Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2006, 10:52:52 PM »

Just got my latest issue in the mail today, so I can actually see what the hubub is about....


[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9532.msg128254#msg128254 date=1153359641]
Something to keep in mind is that it is not just the ethnic/cradle Orthodox that are doing this, there are parishes out there that if you are not a convert from evangical protestantism you are not welcome.  I saw a really sad case of converts treating the Arabs very poorly at an Antiochian parish here.  That's just as bad as the ethnic parishes making sure the convert forever remains a ξένος.   
[/quote]

Coming from the EOC, I'm not surprised.


Met. Philip is right on; some day he will be seen as a prophet to N. American Orthodoxy.

I hope not.  He's done a lot of good, but has some serious shortcomings as well.
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« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2006, 11:09:40 PM »

Then if we aren't going to call it a nationalistic church then what do you call all the different jurisdictions in America?

-nick

Ah...let me see now...hmmmmmm -how about the Orthodox Church  Shocked
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« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2006, 12:40:53 AM »

Yes, they have, but they have "gotten over" the ethnic thing.  People converting to Lutheranism or Anglicanism know they don't have to be German or English - most are hardly aware of those origens anymore.

Orthodox Churches in the USA though frequently don't get it though - they think you still need to become Greek/Russian/etc.

Yes, but it also took them quite a long time.  The Catholic Church has only stopped being ethinic in many areas, and in Texas and such it still is.  Of course, they got over it.  They've had a lot longer existance.  Within the next 100 years, Orthodox will get over it too.  Just give it time, because this is something that you do not want to push, but let it flow a natural existance.  Forcing it will only worsen it.  Soon, we'll Americanize, and probably too soon.
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« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2006, 08:20:33 AM »

IMNSHO, correct on all points, dantxny.

There is still lingering ethnicity in several Pittsburgh RC parishes and so I assume other old large cities may also show this.
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« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2006, 06:07:00 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9532.msg128267#msg128267 date=1153364980]
Ah...let me see now...hmmmmmm -how about the Orthodox ChurchÂÂ  Shocked
[/quote]

How many parishes are named St. ___________ (fill in the blank) Orthodox Church?

-Nick
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« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2006, 06:44:34 PM »

How many parishes are named St. ___________ (fill in the blank) Orthodox Church?

Mine is.  www.orthodoxsanantonio.com  See?
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« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2006, 06:46:38 PM »

How many parishes are named St. ___________ (fill in the blank) Orthodox Church?

-Nick


It's not unheard of...take mine for example:

http://www.yourinter.net/zak

and 3 of the other four 'local' parishes as well.
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« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2006, 07:02:47 PM »

Quote
There is still lingering ethnicity in several Pittsburgh RC parishes and so I assume other old large cities may also show this.

Actually the Catholic Church is going through a massive re-ethnicising.  I feel bad for people like my sister as the two churches by her either have masses all in Spanish or a college parish run by a bunch of hyper liberal flaming gay Dominicans.  More and more Spanish masses are going on around here... so soon there is going to be the American Catholic Church with a completely seperated sideshow of Spanish masses and no interaction between the two.   
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« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2006, 10:06:57 PM »

Mine is.  www.orthodoxsanantonio.com  See?

 You get a cookie  Smiley
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« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2006, 10:12:03 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9532.msg128386#msg128386 date=1153435598]

It's not unheard of...take mine for example:

http://www.yourinter.net/zak

and 3 of the other four 'local' parishes as well.
[/quote]

You also get a cookie. However, I don't consider 1 or 2 churches to be representative of a diocese, 80% of the diocesan churches constitutes diocesan representation in my opinion.

-Nick
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« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2006, 10:42:24 PM »

You also get a cookie. However, I don't consider 1 or 2 churches to be representative of a diocese, 80% of the diocesan churches constitutes diocesan representation in my opinion.

Okay, let's see how the OCA Diocese of the South fares.  From the Diocesan directory on the OCA site, I'll check the names on the individual websites of each parish that has their own and post any that aren't St. ______ Orthodox Church below (I expect that to be the minority, so it'll be easier to type out that way).

....

....

Okay, so I didn't find any.  Well, other than the couple that used the form St. _____ Orthodox Christian Church.  I don't think that's what you were harping on, though.  The closest you'd find to something other than that would be that some parishes put something under their name to the effect of "Diocese of the South, OCA," etc., etc.  That's one diocese down...any other takers?
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« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2006, 10:42:48 PM »

You get a cookieÂÂ  Smiley

Chocolate chip?
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« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2006, 11:17:51 PM »

You also get a cookie. However, I don't consider 1 or 2 churches to be representative of a diocese, 80% of the diocesan churches constitutes diocesan representation in my opinion.

-Nick

Picky, picky, picky  Cheesy

Trade a bag of peanuts for a cookie?
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« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2006, 10:06:49 AM »

So....why would we unite under the EP?  Doesn't the MP have the authority here, because of history?  Or is it because the EP is the ecumenical patriarchate?
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« Reply #45 on: July 21, 2006, 10:33:05 AM »

Chocolate chip?

Is there any other kind of cookie? Grin
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« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2006, 10:33:34 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9532.msg128414#msg128414 date=1153451871]
Picky, picky, pickyÂÂ  Cheesy

Trade a bag of peanuts for a cookie?
[/quote]

Good deal.
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