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Sloga
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« on: July 15, 2006, 12:36:03 PM »

are the maronites in Lebanon orthodox in communion with Rome or are they Eastern Catholic?
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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2006, 12:53:52 PM »

Orthodox in communion with Rome is the same thing as Eastern Catholic.  Actually, Orthodox in communion with Rome is a misnomer--if you join communion with Rome, from an Orthodox position, you are no longer Orthodox.

The Maronites are unique as they were very isolated and when they encountered the Catholics signed union (although they claim they never broke a union so were always in union) and are basically the only Eastern Catholic Church with no Orthodox counterpart.

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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2006, 12:58:41 PM »

actually that was a mistake on my part. I meant if they consider themselves Orthodox with communion to Rome or if they consider themselves Catholic, I know that once you are in communion that you cannot be recogznied as Orthodox, but some people view themselves as just that... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2006, 01:30:35 PM »

Unlike Melkites, who often do consider themselves "Orthodox in Union with Rome", Maronites are more Latinized and do not have such a reference point, I find.

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« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2006, 03:27:17 PM »


The Maronites are unique as they were very isolated and when they encountered the Catholics signed union (although they claim they never broke a union so were always in union) and are basically the only Eastern Catholic Church with no Orthodox counterpart.

Anastasios

I wonder when this signing on occurred? As in maybe around crusader state time? Just idle conjecture, of course.
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« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2006, 04:24:10 PM »

The agreements fomulated around the Crusader times. Before they were accepted with the RCC, they were kind of their own vagante group of Syrian Orthodox. As for the founder "monk Maron", I'm not sure if he is considered to be a saint by the Syrian Orthodox Church or also a vagante. The reason for their isolation all these centuries was mostly due to Lebanon having rugged mountainous terrain, very much like Greece, which might seem odd for a country in the Middle East and thus these Maronites were able to hide in the mountains from either muslims, the offical syrian or byzantine church authority at the time...
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« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2006, 08:28:27 AM »

Vagante? The Maronites are basically Syriac Orthodox who accepted Chalcedon but didn't Byzantinize.  St. Maron is a saint of the Eastern Orthodox Church, his feastday is Feb 14/27.   

A brief synopsis of their History:
http://www.stmaron.org/marhist2.html

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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2006, 09:23:32 AM »

Interesting read, DL. Thanks.
Of course, St Maron's status and the initial status of the Maronites are not directly addressed here, or at least there seems a lot of daylight, so to speak, in the article. It's not what it does state, but what it doesn't that bothers me.
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« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2006, 11:59:13 PM »

O, I guess I figured that they were some sort of Syriac vagantes of the SOC, because many sources I've read claimed that "followers" gathered around him in the hills of Lebanon making me think that St. Maron was actally an escaping vagante from the official Syriac church. Guess I read into it too much.
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« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2006, 02:20:30 PM »

Orthodox in communion with Rome is the same thing as Eastern Catholic.ÂÂ  Actually, Orthodox in communion with Rome is a misnomer--if you join communion with Rome, from an Orthodox position, you are no longer Orthodox.

The Maronites are unique as they were very isolated and when they encountered the Catholics signed union (although they claim they never broke a union so were always in union) and are basically the only Eastern Catholic Church with no Orthodox counterpart.

Anastasios

No, there are 2 Eastern Catholic Churches sui juris without any counterpart in Orthodoxy (Eastern or Oriental).

The other is the Italo-Albanian Catholic Church.

The "uniqueness" of the Maronite Catholic Church lies in their claim that it is the only Eastern Church that "never" separated from Rome. I think nobody has successfully disputed this claim.

In numbers, the Maronite Catholic Church is the largest Christian body in Lebanon, constituting around 37% of the present total population. Another 2% is shared among other Apostolic Christians and some Protestants.

The 60+%ÂÂ  is shared among the Shi'tes, the Sunnis, the Druze, and other negligible Muslim sects.

That 37% or so translates into around 1.4 million Maronite Catholics inside Lebanon, out of total population of ~4 million. However, there are about 1.7 million Maronites in the diaspora, mainly in the U.S., Australia, and Latin America. In the U.S., there are two dioceses with a total of 57 parishes and 102 priests serving about 56,000 faithful. Latin America has about 1.3 million Maronites and Australia has about 150,000.

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« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2006, 03:40:40 PM »

O, I guess I figured that they were some sort of Syriac vagantes of the SOC, because many sources I've read claimed that "followers" gathered around him in the hills of Lebanon making me think that St. Maron was actally an escaping vagante from the official Syriac church. Guess I read into it too much.

This is where I got confused...

"Maron, a contemporary and friend of St. John Chrysostom, was a monk in the fourth century who left Antioch for the Orontes River to lead an ascetic life...
The Maronites held fast to the beliefs of the Council of Chalcedon in 451. When 350 monks were slain by the Monophysites of Antioch, the Maronites sought refuge in the mountains of Lebanon...The martyrdom of the Patriarch of Antioch in 602 left the Maronites without a leader, and led them to elect their first Maronite Patriarch, St. John Maron, in 685."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maronite
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« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2006, 05:20:04 PM »

This is where I got confused...

"Maron, a contemporary and friend of St. John Chrysostom, was a monk in the fourth century who left Antioch for the Orontes River to lead an ascetic life...
The Maronites held fast to the beliefs of the Council of Chalcedon in 451. When 350 monks were slain by the Monophysites of Antioch, the Maronites sought refuge in the mountains of Lebanon...The martyrdom of the Patriarch of Antioch in 602 left the Maronites without a leader, and led them to elect their first Maronite Patriarch, St. John Maron, in 685."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maronite

That caught mt attentionas well. Elected by whom?


The "uniqueness" of the Maronite Catholic Church lies in their claim that it is the only Eastern Church that "never" separated from Rome. I think nobody has successfully disputed this claim.


Nor has it been proven.
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« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2006, 12:47:28 AM »

Well since he was around immediately prior, during, and after the 4th Ecumenical Council, St. Maron was probably ordained/elected by the Antiochian Patriarchate which was only the one, not a Syriac, and an Arabic Byzantine one...I wonder which Rite(s) would've been used back then? More of a Syriac, a mix of both, or a syriac with greek language?
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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2006, 08:26:23 AM »

Well since he was around immediately prior, during, and after the 4th Ecumenical Council, St. Maron was probably ordained/elected by the Antiochian Patriarchate which was only the one, not a Syriac, and an Arabic Byzantine one...I wonder which Rite(s) would've been used back then? More of a Syriac, a mix of both, or a syriac with greek language?

Don't know about rites, but he certainly is NOT listed in the Orthodox line of succession- so not the Antiochians. Begging the question, I am.
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« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2006, 11:17:34 AM »

St. Maron and St. John Maron are not the same person.ÂÂ  St. Maron was an abbot and priest andÂÂ  organized the Chalcedonian Syriacs in the mountains of Lebanon, he was never a patriarch but is looked upon as the proto-founder of the Maronites.ÂÂ  He undoubtedly used the Syriac Rite.

After the martyrdom of the Chalcedonian Patriarch of Antioch and the failure of the Chruch to send a resident replacement, which settled instead to name a bishop to the post but kept him at the court in Constantinople the Maronite bishops elected St. John Maron as the first Maronite Patriarch of Antioch.ÂÂ  At this point while holding fast to Chalcedon, love for the Byzantines had wained especially after a Byzantine attack on one of their Monasteries.ÂÂ  St. John Maron led a military force that routed the Byzantine force sent to capture him and they were left alone by the Byzantines after that.

When the crusaders arrived, they were welcomed as fellow Christians by the Maronites and the Maronite army fought along side them, as did the Armenians.

So while contact with Rome was non-existent for many years, when contact was resumed the Maronites unequivocally recognized the primacy of the Roman Church. They never felt themselves as having broken communion with Rome for they were faithful to Chalcedon and were never involved in the disputes between Rome and Constantinople.ÂÂ  However, some of the Latin bishops ignorantly thought they must have broken communion or they would have known about them.ÂÂ  So they were forced to make a profession of faith, but that does not change the fact there was no act of schism only physical and political isolation.

The Melkites and Antiochians seem to be stuck on insisting they were at one time Monothelites but this has been disproven several times by Maronite Scholars.

So the Maronite Church as a distinct ecclesial entity has never been in schism with Rome although they had little contact with Rome before the Crusades.ÂÂ  As to not having a counterpart, certainly Syriac Orthodox, both Eastern or Oriental are the counterparts.ÂÂ  Sharing with both a Syriac lineage from Antioch, sharing with the EO, Chalcedon and with the OO, the Syraic Rite, although modified.

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« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2006, 11:43:28 AM »

Ah! So they are...dare I say it...'schismatics' of a sort.
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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2006, 11:53:55 AM »

No, not from Rome.  I suppose from the OO and EO as all Catholics are considered so by those Churches.

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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2006, 11:57:54 AM »

How very gracious of you, DL.
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« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2006, 12:12:08 AM »

But in that case they weren't even really schismatics from the EO because it was just fate that brought them together with the Catholics. They were Orthodox Chalcedonians, but due to isolation physically in the mountains and away from any Orthodox Patriarchates, came to unify with Catholics later on...so in a way they never really separated from us...they did (perhaps not fully knowing it) when they united with the Catholic Crusaders.
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« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2006, 12:13:21 AM »

So as I thought, they are some extremely confused people. Cheesy
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« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2006, 07:57:11 AM »

Timos,

I never really thouhgt about it.  They did successfully resist being brought under the rule of the Byzantine emperor after they were left on their own for so long, and I would think that at some point, given the short distance, they had to be aware there were Greek patriarchs back in Antioch.  The relation of the Maronites and the Antiochians is something I have not seen written about and would be worth researching.

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« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2006, 12:18:26 PM »

Maronite Patriarch, HB Cardinal Sfeir, is back safe in Lebanon yesterday after his partoral visits in the U.S. of Maronite parishes on the occasion of the 40th anniversary of the founding of the first Maronite parish here.

Today he will preside over a special assembly of all Maronite bishops presently in Lebanon to assess what the Church can do in these difficult times.

The Patriarch and his party took a plane from the U.S. to Cyprus where a U.S. military helicopter was waiting to pick them up and flew them straight to the U.S. Embassy grounds in Beirut. Thence, the party were driven to the patriarchal residence at Bkerke.

Details at:

http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=6766

and at:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=74135

Transportation and the security of the Patriarch and his party must have been arranged by the U.S. State Department upon the request and intervention of the Nuncio to the U.S.

Amado
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« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2006, 01:01:33 PM »

Timos,

I never really thouhgt about it.  They did successfully resist being brought under the rule of the Byzantine emperor after they were left on their own for so long, and I would think that at some point, given the short distance, they had to be aware there were Greek patriarchs back in Antioch.  The relation of the Maronites and the Antiochians is something I have not seen written about and would be worth researching.

Fr. Deacon Lance

A doctoral thesis, perhaps?  Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2006, 01:18:20 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9523.msg128494#msg128494 date=1153501293]
A doctoral thesis, perhaps?ÂÂ  Smiley
[/quote]

For any of you Holy Cross, people, go for it!

I would, but I'm studying history, I'm not sure if this would be included lol.
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« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2006, 01:28:53 PM »

Timos,

I never really thouhgt about it.ÂÂ  They did successfully resist being brought under the rule of the Byzantine emperor after they were left on their own for so long, and I would think that at some point, given the short distance, they had to be aware there were Greek patriarchs back in Antioch.ÂÂ  The relation of the Maronites and the Antiochians is something I have not seen written about and would be worth researching.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Sure, they would've known about the Antiochian/Constantinople patriarchates, but the Byzantine army did strangely attack one of their monasteries for some reason, in which case, I would understand, them not wanting to be united with a church, who's nation's army have attacked them. Back then, it seems that they looked at the Antiochian and Constantinople church as having the same (Byzantine) authority, so that was no good, and the Syrian Orthodox Church was also persecuting them, so they were out of the question too. So, it seems that the only solution for them was to ordain their own "Maronite Antiochian Patriarch" and then ally with an Apostolic Chalcedonian Church authority NOT involved in the politics of the area...
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