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Author Topic: Catholic/Orthodox conversion inquisition by Family  (Read 3132 times) Average Rating: 0
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Dismus
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« on: July 13, 2006, 10:43:00 PM »

Good news to share re: progress with family understanding conversion ideas from catholic/Orthodox Catholic

I shared the info to this site w/my mom (JW) who thanks to some posters here were able to give me some links for her to review in hopes that 1) she could see for herself in her native tongue what the Orthodox in Finland are about. This was a blessing to me, since it also achieved 2) her better understanding of my descision to consider such a change in denomination. She already has info on RCC. This is all new to her and this site was her first experience w/Orthodoxy.

Her questions surprised me since she did not go about her usual RCC bashing approach, but none the less gave me more questions to consider.

1) How are you ever going to be an Orthodox if you have a child and are taking care of her yourself when you are going to have to very possibly have to
a- decide what jurisdiction (if you even get a choice) in the area you will be moving to and make her sit through if no other options exist- a
liturgy in another language?
b- have to join a jurisdiction where you have to travel to hear english liturgy if you are able to do that with your little one.

This is a problem.
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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2006, 11:04:44 PM »

But this is not a problem...yet  Smiley  Do you know where you will relocate?

As to language, I'm old enough to remember RCC mass in a language that almost no one understood  Cheesy
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2006, 12:55:21 AM »

Regarding the language thing---

this really is not an issue. F'rinstance, in my hometown of 200k people, we have two Orthodox parishes: one is OCA (services all in English) and the other is GOA (services are 90% English).

Since you are currently in Chicago, this is one of the 'Greek pockets' of the country where you can find GOA parishes that use a lot of Greek. However, if you relocate elsewhere, it is quite likely that even the GOA parish will use some Greek, but not a lot.

Plus, here's a little tidbit for you and your child: there is an advantage to being exposed to a different language; it helps you make connections in thinking.

Once, my youngest daughter was driving  my wife nuts because she kept wiggling while my wife was trying to pin a recently made dress around our daughter to get the hem length correct. Try as she might my wife could not get Sophia to stand still.

Finally I looked at my youngest and said "Sophia! Stomen Kalos!" (Stand Well! {or right, or straight}). Even at her age of 3, she popped right at attention because that was what she knew to do at Church once she heard that phrase.

So, don't listen to the naysayers. Stride forward with Faith that the Lord will take care of you and yours!
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2006, 12:24:13 PM »

Okay. Last night my mom told me that I "owe it" to my Priest to talk to him first. moms are good at the guilt game so I did leave a message this morning on his VM and he called me right back.
His thoughts:
I won't do it because, in order to do so I will have to state that the RCC is heresy and if I make a statement like that, I risk damnation so I would be better off just not going to Church again than doing that.
I won't do it because the experience will be fun at first, like someone having an "affair" but then, the reality sets in and it is not so fun anymore.
I won't do it because the OC has problems too.
I will most likely become a lapsed Catholic, and most likely put myself at risk to be in Hell.
He said he was only joking about the last part- but I think he was planting seeds.
I thanked him for his time and thoughts and have been torn between laughing my head off and crying my eyes out.

I told my mom what he said. She said that's okay. Don't worry about what he said. He works for Satan anyway. I just wanted you to do the right thing.

I pay no attention to that commentary. But, I did feel better talking to him first so I could say I did the right thing.

He also mentioned that if I do such a thing- I will have some paperwork to do w/the RCC...Huh?
What for? Why?

Maybe he was kidding about that too.

Anyway, this is getting a bit much for me to think about.
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« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2006, 11:28:59 PM »

Okay. Last night my mom told me that I "owe it" to my Priest to talk to him first. moms are good at the guilt game so I did leave a message this morning on his VM and he called me right back.
His thoughts:
I won't do it because, in order to do so I will have to state that the RCC is heresy and if I make a statement like that, I risk damnation so I would be better off just not going to Church again than doing that.
I won't do it because the experience will be fun at first, like someone having an "affair" but then, the reality sets in and it is not so fun anymore.
I won't do it because the OC has problems too.
I will most likely become a lapsed Catholic, and most likely put myself at risk to be in Hell.
He said he was only joking about the last part- but I think he was planting seeds.
I thanked him for his time and thoughts and have been torn between laughing my head off and crying my eyes out.

I told my mom what he said. She said that's okay. Don't worry about what he said. He works for Satan anyway. I just wanted you to do the right thing.

I pay no attention to that commentary. But, I did feel better talking to him first so I could say I did the right thing.

He also mentioned that if I do such a thing- I will have some paperwork to do w/the RCC...Huh?
What for? Why?

Maybe he was kidding about that too.

Anyway, this is getting a bit much for me to think about.


In nomine Iesus I offer you Peace Dismus,

Are you attending Catholic Eucharist now or is it that you are currently a lapsed Catholic looking at Orthodoxy? Just Curious.

Are you sure that your Priest stated that to become Orthodox your would be damned? That doesn't sound like the first thing that would come out of a Priest's mouth when confronted with laity investigating Orthodoxy. I would be curious as to what in Orthodoxy has interested you and pursue a dialogue from there. Of course, I am not your Spiritual Father and not all Spiritual Fathers are equal but I haven't met many in this day and age that would believe such 'fear tactics' would be effectual.

Do you mind me asking your age?
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« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2006, 12:06:22 AM »


In nomine Iesus I offer you Peace Dismus,

Are you attending Catholic Eucharist now or is it that you are currently a lapsed Catholic looking at Orthodoxy? Just Curious.

Yes I am a current Catholic and a newer convert.

Are you sure that your Priest stated that to become Orthodox your would be damned?

This Priest says a lot of wierd things and I never know if he is kidding or serious. He is different that is the only thing that remains constant.

 That doesn't sound like the first thing that would come out of a Priest's mouth when confronted with laity investigating Orthodoxy.

You would have to know him to understand his Jesuit brand of humour- and then you still might not get it.

 I would be curious as to what in Orthodoxy has interested you

I was interested in Orthodoxy prior to getting married to a Catholic man.


and pursue a dialogue from there. Of course, I am not your Spiritual Father

Well, if you want to take me on as such- God Love you for it. I'm no walk in the park.and not all Spiritual Fathers are equal

You seem okay so far.but I haven't met many in this day and age that would believe such 'fear tactics' would be effectual.

You need to get out more.
Do you mind me asking your age?


I don't mind you asking it. I just will decline answering it. I am old enough to know better - but don't yet (still) .
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« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2006, 11:53:27 AM »

See: http://www.sspx.ca/Angelus/2004_FebMar/Hellish_Holland.htm

Not much of a bequest to your daughter
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« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2006, 11:59:21 AM »

See: http://www.sspx.ca/Angelus/2004_FebMar/Hellish_Holland.htm

Not much of a bequest to your daughter

Would you mind explaining what the heck that link has to do with anything? Huh
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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2006, 01:31:03 PM »

See: http://www.sspx.ca/Angelus/2004_FebMar/Hellish_Holland.htm

Not much of a bequest to your daughter

This is a nice well written article about how truly sad liberlism and ecumenism is in the Netherlands. :'(
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« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2006, 03:11:53 PM »

Would you mind explaining what the heck that link has to do with anything? Huh

Sorry if I'm chasing hares.

I meant to imply that the point modern Catholicism has reached is bleak if considered as a legacy for your offspring.

PS. The article includes the observation that a bishop, who outranks your Jesuit, doesn't believe in hell.


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« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2006, 04:00:56 PM »

IMO... find a spiritual director with at least some monastic background...

peace and all good...

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« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2006, 04:18:54 PM »

These two (edited) paragraphs were interesting from that article:

Quote
Bishop Bomers advised Una Voce to approach the schismatic Syrian Orthodox in Amsterdam because the Catholic Church entered into agreements with the Orthodox stipulating, among other things, that the Uniates [i.e., those officially in union with Rome -Ed.] in Holland must receive the sacrament of Confirmation from the Orthodox (schismatic) bishops.

Una Voce authorities went to the Syrian deacon of Amsterdam in charge of the Orthodox properties and asked to get a church for one Mass during one afternoon. This schismatic deacon agreed to open a church if Una Voce was willing to pay for it. But in the same Orthodox church every Sunday Opus Dei was celebrating the New Mass. ... These Opus Dei members were paying the Orthodox deacon for the weekly use of the church. Hearing about the new agreement, they told the deacon they did not want Una Voce to celebrate the Latin Mass in the same church and they gave him an ultimatum: "Opus Dei or Una Voce but not both together." ... They are persecuted by their own "conservative" brethren-Opus Dei-who were themselves in the church of schismatics to whom they had to pay rent, in this "most conservative" Catholic diocese in Holland....


The author is a priest in an SSPX mission. In the past I  have had people insist that SSPX does not consider us Orthodox as being schismatics; now I can refer them to this article as proof that SSPX maintains a conservative position on this issue (gee--what a surprise!  Roll Eyes )

Secondly, how often do we have Orthodox churches rented out to Roman Catholic groups in Europe? I would have thought the opposite would have occurred, such as with Orthodox communities 'borrowing' space from Catholics or Anglicans in the UK...
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« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2006, 06:00:40 PM »

funny, I had just read that same article last night and pondered the same thing about how Orthodox are apparently heretical. As a sidenote, I like the peaceful latin services so I sometimes drop in at the sspx masses they hold at one of their chapels nearby. Of course I do not commune and they probably dont know I'm Orthodox...I wonder what their reaction would be if I told them I'm Orthodox...
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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2006, 07:31:58 PM »

If they say anything that would schock me as they are schismatics. So what? Who cares what they think of you being there? Tell them the Pope sent you to see what they are up to. That ought to get attention.
They should be happy an Orthodox would grace them with their prescence.
They are not in communion with Rome and they act like they are saving the world singlehandedly. Gimme a break. Bring your prayer rope and say the Jesus prayer. Let them stop you. Those schismatics.
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« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2006, 07:44:49 PM »

funny, I had just read that same article last night and pondered the same thing about how Orthodox are apparently heretical. As a sidenote, I like the peaceful latin services so I sometimes drop in at the sspx masses they hold at one of their chapels nearby. Of course I do not commune and they probably dont know I'm Orthodox...I wonder what their reaction would be if I told them I'm Orthodox...

I wonder if there is a decently sung SSPX Mass somewhere in the Bay Area.  I'd like to attend one sometime.
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2006, 07:53:42 PM »

I wonder if there is a decently sung SSPX Mass somewhere in the Bay Area.ÂÂ  I'd like to attend one sometime.

Why not go to a Tridentine Mass? One with gregorian chant? Not schismatic. They are not the only ones who do pomp and circumstance you know.
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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2006, 08:03:44 PM »

Why not go to a Tridentine Mass? One with gregorian chant? Not schismatic. They are not the only ones who do pomp and circumstance you know.

Oh - I thought they were the same.  I never grew up Catholic.
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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2006, 09:31:41 PM »

Oh - I thought they were the same.ÂÂ  I never grew up Catholic.

I will try to find a legit one for you if you want. PM me if you care to and I will try to get you a list.

Personally, you are not doing yourself any favors going to a schismatic but nice Mass.

They are nice people generally, but they are missing a few cards in the deck so to speak.

Godspeed,
Dismus
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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2006, 11:50:31 PM »

What is SSPX? 

Dismus,

I kind of didn't understand your dialogue with your priest.  Were his comments made towards your questions of conversion? 

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« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2006, 11:56:14 PM »

Why not go to a Tridentine Mass? One with gregorian chant? Not schismatic. They are not the only ones who do pomp and circumstance you know.

From an Orthodox Perspective, there's really no difference. Rome broke with the Church about a thousand years ago, and SSPX...well they may have just broke with Rome a few decades ago, but they broke with the Orthodox Church the same time the rest of the Latins did...no difference really.

Now I will grant you that psychologically SSPX is probably worse than mainstream Catholicism; fundamentalism of any stripe tends to be dominated by psychologically unstable personalities; but, truth be told, I've found that members of Tridentine Mass Communities within mainstream Catholicism tend to be equally plagued with fundamentalist tendencies. However, Ecclesiologically, from an Orthodox perspective there's no difference.
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« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2006, 12:22:46 AM »

From an Orthodox Perspective, there's really no difference. Rome broke with the Church about a thousand years ago, and SSPX...well they may have just broke with Rome a few decades ago, but they broke with the Orthodox Church the same time the rest of the Latins did...no difference really.

Now I will grant you that psychologically SSPX is probably worse than mainstream Catholicism; fundamentalism of any stripe tends to be dominated by psychologically unstable personalities; but, truth be told, I've found that members of Tridentine Mass Communities within mainstream Catholicism tend to be equally plagued with fundamentalist tendencies. However, Ecclesiologically, from an Orthodox perspective there's no difference.

I know that but if that is true---
why not go Angelican?

Why not go for the full gusto?

That is like me going to a ---dare I say it?
Orthodox Church not in full communion calling itself Orthodox.....
WHY?
No Point to it.
Silly.
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« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2006, 12:55:12 AM »

I know that but if that is true---
why not go Angelican?

Why not go for the full gusto?

Good point, certain Anglo-Catholics also celebrate the Tridantine Mass, one could go to one of these celebrations if they wish to observe a Tridantine Mass.

Quote
That is like me going to a ---dare I say it?
Orthodox Church not in full communion calling itself Orthodox.....
WHY?
No Point to it.
Silly.

If all you want to do is observe a Greek Liturgy, then that's certainly a possibility, you could go to a Byzantine Catholic Church as well. From what I know of him I dont believe that Elisha is looking to convert to catholicism or become intimately involved in latin spirituality, though I may be wrong; but rather is interested in observing a Tridantine Mass, which is a significant service from an historical perspective, accordingly, any tridantine mass, served by any group, would do, provided the celebrate they mass using correct form.
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« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2006, 02:02:30 AM »

From what I know of him I dont believe that Elisha is looking to convert to catholicism or become intimately involved in latin spirituality, though I may be wrong; but rather is interested in observing a Tridantine Mass, which is a significant service from an historical perspective, accordingly, any tridantine mass, served by any group, would do, provided the celebrate they mass using correct form.

Correct, sir.  I'm interested in Gregorian Chant, motets, etc. and what a Tridentine Mass is like...slightly more than a passing interest.  The Tridentine Mass - to see a traditional "western" Liturgy and the chant/music as a singer.

And as GiC said, both are schismatic from my pov so it makes no difference.
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« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2006, 07:41:58 AM »

Hmm, the SSPX somehow deny that they were ever excommunicated by Rome...strange allegation to hold if it were true. Nevertheless, I've spoken to some of them and they don't seem fundamentalist really, not any more than the people at an average Orthodox monastery  Grin

But seriously if you think these guys are wacko's, these people are nothing compared to the SSPV (Sosciety of St. Pius V). They don't even acknowledge that there is a current Roman Pope. So everyone other than the SSPV are schismatics-reminds me of some Old Calendarist exccomunicated groups who think they are the only 500 orthodox people left on earth...
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« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2006, 09:37:17 AM »

Personally, you are not doing yourself any favors going to a schismatic but nice Mass.


Of course, any Mass Elisha would attend---whether it be from SSPX or a priest in communion with Rome---would be schismatic or heretical.

Serbski--

SSPX: Society of Saint Pius X. They're another group that is so Roman Catholic they broke communion with the Pope of Rome. Because they tend to be conservative in outlook, some Roman Catholics seem to think that the SSPX are like us Orthodox.

They're not, but it's another example of how we are not understood by most rank and file Roman Catholics in this country.
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« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2006, 10:20:46 AM »

You guys are correct per your faith to say any would be schismatic outside of Orthodoxy. But if RCC is schismatic, why go to a schismatic of a schismatic is all I am saying.

It's just weird to go farther away from the "tree" like that I guess.

But whatever. If you are ever in the Chicago Area I reccomend a parish that has the best voices I have ever heard. As an aside they offer Greek and Latin classes.

It's St. John Cantius and I wish I remembered the url but you can hear the singing online I think.
They are their own order of Priests.
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« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2006, 09:20:06 PM »

The inquistion of the blood relatives is at an end except for my husband, considering for the most part that my interest has waned coupled with a strange feeling that in spite of what I may or may not feel/know yet, my little one has already developed friendships with many others in the RCC parish I attend. Granted she would make friends anywhere but the unfortunate reality of life is that I have to ask myself if my daughter should have more changes in her life than she will soon have anyway.
She does like the Divine Liturgy better, as she loves looking at all the Icons and loves the vestments the Priest wears, however there are hardly more than 2 other kids at any given Liturgy I have been to at the Parish I know I should be at. If I were to convert.
At that, she is confused by the fact that kids there are allowed to walk around the place during the Liturgy. I try to keep her sitting still in the (yes they have pews and kneelers) pew and I try to keep her silent - she is! God love her she is. She even can cross herself and sings when she can pipe in - Amazing how she can repeat Lord have mercy in a singing voice... she is amazing. So, the Liturgy even though it is longer than the Mass I go to, is okay in spite of the fact I have to lie to hubbie to take her there (sin - maybe mortal) so this is hard to do, and it is hard to feel good about it when I have to sneak around.
THis is not an easy thing, and I don't even know why I am still trudging trough this decision at all. What am I doing? will it even matter in the end? Am I doing more harm than good in MY personal quest and how many others will suffer for it in the end?
Almighty God, please hear me your weak and weary child that longs to be close to you and do what is pleasing in your sight. I feel very confused and uncertain where to turn - I only know one thing, that I strive to know you better and your will for me I try to stop and listen to along the way through all of life's struggles and joys, how I only want to do what is right. I can not do it alone, and seek your home to guide me Lord.
Help me please to hear you.
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« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2006, 11:49:52 PM »

You really seam like you're going through a tough time with this. 

Not that i'm in a position to say anything, but if you really don't want to stop fighting for your knowledge of God and of truth through the Orthodox church, then don't.  Just because you are fighting for something doesn't mean it has to be won right away.  Catachumens used to study for YEARS before they were accepted into the church. 

Learn more about the Orthodox faith and learn more about the Catholic faith.  Either way you're going to benefit and learn how to be a better Christian.  And believe me, there's no end to the things you could learn.  Maybe take classes, I know a lot of the Catholic colleges in Chicago offer amazing classes.  This doesn't have to be an all of nothing type of decision.  You can take your time with it. 

Another option is to really start talking to your priest about how you feel and to the Orthodox priest at the church you would "want" to convert to.  Keep asking them questions, and try to figure out what the best process is for you.  Maybe with their help you can get your husband to understand...who knows. 

Anyway, keep praying and I hope and pray that things work out for you. 
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« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2006, 12:35:28 AM »

What is SSPX? 



That'd be the Society of Saint Pius X
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« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2006, 01:48:15 PM »

You really seam like you're going through a tough time with this. 

Not that i'm in a position to say anything, but if you really don't want to stop fighting for your knowledge of God and of truth through the Orthodox church, then don't.  Just because you are fighting for something doesn't mean it has to be won right away.  Catachumens used to study for YEARS before they were accepted into the church. 

Learn more about the Orthodox faith and learn more about the Catholic faith.  Either way you're going to benefit and learn how to be a better Christian.  And believe me, there's no end to the things you could learn.  Maybe take classes, I know a lot of the Catholic colleges in Chicago offer amazing classes.  This doesn't have to be an all of nothing type of decision.  You can take your time with it. 

Another option is to really start talking to your priest about how you feel and to the Orthodox priest at the church you would "want" to convert to.  Keep asking them questions, and try to figure out what the best process is for you.  Maybe with their help you can get your husband to understand...who knows. 

Anyway, keep praying and I hope and pray that things work out for you. 

Well said!

Pax.
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