Topic: My visit to the ROCOR cathedral in San Francisco.

[Starlight]

There is the joke about going to a Greek church, and having old ladies come up to you and say "You are not Greek! Why you want to come here? Baptist Church down street. You go now."ÂÂ

Well, I visited scores of Greek Orthodox churches in USA and other countries. I never saw anything like that. In fact, people - both clergy and laity were very welcoming. I was regularly invited to come again. I saw such attitude and sincere respect common to converts as well as to cradle Orthodox Christians of other ethnic backgrounds. Some Greek Orthodox parishes have a very high proportion of non-Greeks.

[Starlight]

When I just relocated to USA, I really came to appreciation of the fact that in the absolutely overwhelming majority of the parishes in this country nobody make comments / recommendations / orders / judgements about the appearance and behavior of people in church.

[Steve Dennehy]

No it isn't. It's also Greek and Antiochian. Please don't tell us what is and isn't our culture......
The culture it is offending is Christan culture. In Church, we attend to prayer, and we pray with our bodies as well as our hearts minds and souls. That is why we have Canons about not kneeling on Sundays. We Cross ourselves, we stand to attention, we bow...the only reason one would place their hands behind their back is if they were not participating in the Divine Liturgy- so then, why are they there?

"Our culture" ?  Which of those are you ? Russian, Greek, Syrian ?

"Our culture" should refer to Orthodox Christian culture.  Christian culture is the culture created by reception of Lord Jesus Christ.  It isn't tied to any ethnic group.  There is a problem with many cradle Orthidox in not understanding the difference.  That type of psuedo-Orthodoxy is dying out in America and Canada where 1/3 of priests are converts.

[ozgeorge]

"Our culture" ?  Which of those are you ? Russian, Greek, Syrian ?
"Our culture" should refer to Orthodox Christian culture. 

If you can get off your soap box for a minute and actually read what I said, (and what you actually quoted me as saying!), I am talking obout "our culture" as referring to "Christian Culture".

The culture it is offending is Christan culture.

You are so stuck on your own ideas about the Orthodox Church that you are making the exact mistake I described:

What irks me, I guess, is that the people who say "it's just an old Russian thing" or "it's just a Greek thing" have no idea what they are talking about, and most often are using it as the age-old way of Orthodoxy-bashing with the claim that we are just a bunch of "ethnic" Churches, each with their own ethnic customs which they consider to be Orthopraxis. And yet, these same people would not hesitate to stand with their hand on their heart during the Star Spangled Banner- whether they are Anglo-Americans, African-Americans, Hispanic-Americans, Greek-Americans etc..... The posture during the National Anthem is considered "Patriotic American", not "ethnic". But a posture in a Russian Orthodox Church is automatically assumed to be "Russian" and not "Orthodox Christian".....

[Anastasios]

Orthodox Christian culture is called Christian Hellenism. Not Zorba the Greek and all that jazz, which got a bad name after 1821 and nationalism, but that universalist and open identity as Romans that was shared by Greek and Slav alike, the Byzantine commonwealth, which transcended any one ethnicity and united all together as Romiosini.  I can say as a convert that all-convert parishes which try to supplant what they see as "ethnicism" with "American" (or some other) culture forcefully scare me.  They just don't seem real to me.  A good parish will have both converts and cradles, where the Christian Hellenic culture of the Orthodox Church takes in gradually the host culture, such as American, and fuses the positives of American culture (or any other host culture) with the original Christian Hellenic culture.

To try and strip away Christian Hellenic Orthodox culture because it is "ethnic" and replace it with "American" culture ends up throwing out more than just incidentals and creates a fake-feeling atmosphere, in my experience.  That isn't to say there aren't some serious problems with parishes say for example a Greek one where "Christian Hellenism" is lost and Hellenism is equated with being racially Greek, and where it's "the Greek Church" and "you Americans: why are you here?" (and I have actually encountered this in personal experience. Luckily, I am thick skinned!)

The summary of my post is: allow the natural fusion to take place over the centuries it will take to create an American Orthodox culture.

Anastasios

[ania]

Thank you Dustin!!!  Couldn't agree more.

[Thomas]

Bravo Dustin!!!

What an excellent presentation of the term I usually use "Orthodox world view" as a voice of the culture of universal orthodoxy (neither Greek nor Slavic but Orthodox).

May I use it in the future?

In Christ,
Thomas

[FrChris]

This defination also works for me! 

[Anastasios]

Sure, feel free to use my words! Thanks for the kind response!

Anastasios (or Dustin if you insist )

[ozgeorge]

Orthodox Christian culture is called Christian Hellenism. Not Zorba the Greek and all that jazz, which got a bad name after 1821 and nationalism, but that universalist and open identity as Romans that was shared by Greek and Slav alike, the Byzantine commonwealth, which transcended any one ethnicity and united all together as Romiosini.  I can say as a convert that all-convert parishes which try to supplant what they see as "ethnicism" with "American" (or some other) culture forcefully scare me.  They just don't seem real to me.  A good parish will have both converts and cradles, where the Christian Hellenic culture of the Orthodox Church takes in gradually the host culture, such as American, and fuses the positives of American culture (or any other host culture) with the original Christian Hellenic culture.

To try and strip away Christian Hellenic Orthodox culture because it is "ethnic" and replace it with "American" culture ends up throwing out more than just incidentals and creates a fake-feeling atmosphere, in my experience.  That isn't to say there aren't some serious problems with parishes say for example a Greek one where "Christian Hellenism" is lost and Hellenism is equated with being racially Greek, and where it's "the Greek Church" and "you Americans: why are you here?" (and I have actually encountered this in personal experience. Luckily, I am thick skinned!)

The summary of my post is: allow the natural fusion to take place over the centuries it will take to create an American Orthodox culture.

Anastasios

Well said Anastasios. And I'm so glad a convert said it because no one would have accepted it from a cradle! 

[Αριστοκλής]

Yes, indeed. And deserving of a Post-of-the-Month Award.

[Elisha]

While I mostly agree with the "Post-of-the-Month", someone still needs to demonstrate how a woman wearing pants or a pants suit is "crossdressing".  When someone can show me a council, canon or some respected Fathers that say this - that even have a clue about modern and different cultural dress styles, then I might change my thinking.  How are men wearing "robes" not dressing like women then?

Leave the suit at the office?  Well, what the heck do you think men happen to frequently wear to church?  There are many women I know/seen who I'm not sure even own a skirt/dress, wearing pants all the time....and these women are some that are great examples of piety that we should strive to follow.  They wouldn't even have a clue about this dress/skirt thing.  Furthermore, the tolerance of women pushing the envelope and wearing short/tight tops and/or shorter skirts just reveals the hypocrisy of the fashion nazis.

Btw, while I'm writing this, a coworker walked by wearing some loose fitting pink pants and a long sleeve white button down short (the pink looks obviously feminine).  This is obviously more modest than a teenager with a tight-fitting short sleeve top (with a dangerously low neckline cut around the chest) and a skirt that is just above the knee.  I some several of these teenager types at said ROCOR cathedral.  The got a blessing from the Bishop like everyone else and no one seemed to be scandalized.

I don't mean to sound bitter about this - I'm not.  I just want to point out some outdated, anachronistic thinking.  It has nothing to do with theology, but modesty and modesty can be satisfied w/o wearing a skirt/dress.

[TomS]

This is obviously more modest than a teenager with a tight-fitting short sleeve top (with a dangerously low neckline cut around the chest) and a skirt that is just above the knee.  I some several of these teenager types at said ROCOR cathedral.  The got a blessing from the Bishop like everyone else and no one seemed to be scandalized.

And let's be truthfull. He probably took a little longer doing the blessing for those girls. 

 Blatantly insulting a hierarch of the Church with accusations of lustfulness

 

[Αριστοκλής]

And let's be truthfull. He probably took a little longer doing the blessing for those girls. 

Yeah, poor fella'. Tempted as we all are.

[Dismus]

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9433.msg132592#msg132592 date=1156267100]
Yeah, poor fella'. Tempted as we all are.
[/quote]

Great comment!  Many here have reminded me that priests are only human.



tom, you may be right in one way, but think in positives and not negatives...
Maybe he would have spent more time blessing them because in his wisdom he saw they might have needed it more.  Just a thought

[ania]

And let's be truthfull. He probably took a little longer doing the blessing for those girls. 

Tom, that's just disrespectful to Bp. Kiril (of San Fran), to bishops in general, and to priests as well, since they give out blessings too.

[Elisha]

Tom, that's just disrespectful to Bp. Kiril (of San Fran), to bishops in general, and to priests as well, since they give out blessings too.

Ania,
While I agree with your sentiment, it is just par for the course for TomS.

[Steve Dennehy]

Orthodox Christian culture is called Christian Hellenism. Not Zorba the Greek and all that jazz, which got a bad name after 1821 and nationalism, but that universalist and open identity as Romans that was shared by Greek and Slav alike, the Byzantine commonwealth, which transcended any one ethnicity and united all together as Romiosini.  I can say as a convert that all-convert parishes which try to supplant what they see as "ethnicism" with "American" (or some other) culture forcefully scare me.  They just don't seem real to me.  A good parish will have both converts and cradles, where the Christian Hellenic culture of the Orthodox Church takes in gradually the host culture, such as American, and fuses the positives of American culture (or any other host culture) with the original Christian Hellenic culture.

To try and strip away Christian Hellenic Orthodox culture because it is "ethnic" and replace it with "American" culture ends up throwing out more than just incidentals and creates a fake-feeling atmosphere, in my experience.  That isn't to say there aren't some serious problems with parishes say for example a Greek one where "Christian Hellenism" is lost and Hellenism is equated with being racially Greek, and where it's "the Greek Church" and "you Americans: why are you here?" (and I have actually encountered this in personal experience. Luckily, I am thick skinned!)

The summary of my post is: allow the natural fusion to take place over the centuries it will take to create an American Orthodox culture.

Anastasios

Anastasios,
Orthodox Christian culture is Hellenism ??!!!???!!!.
The Church is the Body of Lord Jesus Christ, Who is NOT Greek; He 's a JEW Who is GOD.  The Church of the Apostles, the Church of Jerusalem was not
Greek; it was an Aramaic-Syrian speaking Jewish Church, which expanded to include the Aramaic- Syrian speaking  West Syrian converts ( the dominant Gentile group in Israel and vicinity), then the Greek-speaking  Gentiles of the area, etc. etc. --to inlcude "every nation, race and tongue".

"IN Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile... but all are One in Christ Jesus."
                                   (--St. Paul Galatians 3:28)
Steve

[Anastasios]

Steve my man, you obviously didn't understand a word of what I said.  I explicitly said Hellenism is not Greek racial identity.  When the ancient Greeks became Orthodox, they STOPPED calling themselves Greek because of the pagan connotation. They fused their identity with the universal Roman Christian identity that encompassed Jew and Greek alike. See that's the thing, Steve: in the Church there is neither Jew nor Greek and in the Orthodox Christian culture, which is called Christian Hellenism or Romanity, you have neither Jew nor Greek either.  The uniting of races is not THEORETICAL, it is REAL.

Anastasios

[Carpatho Russian]

Orthodox Christian culture is Hellenism ??!!!???!!!.

Steve,
I think you need to re-read Anastasios' post again, very carefully.  If I understand him correctly, he means Christian Hellenism as a "mind-set"  (I think the Greek word is phronema) as opposed to, let's say, a Latin/Roman mind-set such as we see in the Roman Catholic and Protestant Churches.  Russians, Carpatho Rusyns, Serbs, Romanians, etc., yes, and even us "American" Orthodox all owe their Orthodox Christianity to Christian Hellenism.

Anastasios,
A great post for a convert! 

[francis-christopher]

Steve my man, you obviously didn't understand a word of what I said.  I explicitly said Hellenism is not Greek racial identity.  When the ancient Greeks became Orthodox, they STOPPED calling themselves Greek because of the pagan connotation. They fused their identity with the universal Roman Christian identity that encompassed Jew and Greek alike. See that's the thing, Steve: in the Church there is neither Jew nor Greek and in the Orthodox Christian culture, which is called Christian Hellenism or Romanity, you have neither Jew nor Greek either.  The uniting of races is not THEORETICAL, it is REAL.

Anastasios

in nomine Ieus I offer you peace Anastasios,

Please forgive my butting in but I believe the word you are grasping for isn't Hellenism, it's Catholic in it's purest sense (i.e. Universal). Now I know most Orthodox feel that the word has been ultimately distorted to refer only to the Roman Church but I personally believe it never-the-less is the word used by the early Church Fathers to refer to this universalism of which you appear to speak.

Regardless Pax.

[Anastasios]

FC,

Thank you for your reply, but I was very deliberate in my terms.  Christian Hellenism is the term for the universal Christian culture, a synonym of which is called Romiosini.  Note that we are talking about culture.  Of course, the Church is described as Catholic, which means according-to-the fullness and later took on the connotation of universal.

The Orthodox Church teaches us that the Roman Empire was established by Divine Will so that the Gospel could be spread more easily (c.f. the Hymns of Nativity).  The culture of this empire was Hellenism after Alexander's conquests, which the Latins picked up and fused with their own, creating the Roman idenity. Add in Christianity and you get Christian Hellenism, or Romiosini, a way of doing things.  This is the culture in which the Holy Apostles wrote scripture and preached so that they could appeal to the greatest number of people in the empire.

So to be clear: when I speak of Christian culture, I refer to Christian Hellenism, or Romiosini.  When I refer to the universality of the Church in both the sense of everywhere present and according to the fullness, I say Catholic.  "Christian Hellenism" is not simply a term used to substitute for Catholic culture, although in Catholic parlance, one speaks of Catholic culture.  In my experience, one did not speak of Orthodox culture but rather of Roman culture and the Catholic Church as two compliments.

in Christ,

Anastasios

[Anastasios]

CR,

Right on my friend

All,

The Byzantine Commonwealth by Meyendorff and the writings of Romanides on Romiosini (hehe, I feel guilty citing these two in the same sentance given the animosity of the latter to the former!) might better flesh out what I am saying for those interested.  There is also a book called Christian Hellenism published by Caratzas Press which I have but have not yet read so I can't vouch for its quality.

Anastasios

[francis-christopher]

FC,

Thank you for your reply, but I was very deliberate in my terms.  Christian Hellenism is the term for the universal Christian culture, a synonym of which is called Romiosini.  Note that we are talking about culture.  Of course, the Church is described as Catholic, which means according-to-the fullness and later took on the connotation of universal.

The Orthodox Church teaches us that the Roman Empire was established by Divine Will so that the Gospel could be spread more easily (c.f. the Hymns of Nativity).  The culture of this empire was Hellenism after Alexander's conquests, which the Latins picked up and fused with their own, creating the Roman idenity. Add in Christianity and you get Christian Hellenism, or Romiosini, a way of doing things.  This is the culture in which the Holy Apostles wrote scripture and preached so that they could appeal to the greatest number of people in the empire.

So to be clear: when I speak of Christian culture, I refer to Christian Hellenism, or Romiosini.  When I refer to the universality of the Church in both the sense of everywhere present and according to the fullness, I say Catholic.  "Christian Hellenism" is not simply a term used to substitute for Catholic culture, although in Catholic parlance, one speaks of Catholic culture.  In my experience, one did not speak of Orthodox culture but rather of Roman culture and the Catholic Church as two compliments.

in Christ,

Anastasios

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued peace Anastasios,

Thanks you for Clarifying. If you don't mind me asking, are you GOA?

Pax

[Anastasios]

I don't mind you asking.   I am actually what is known as a Greek Old Calendarist; we follow the Julian Calendar and have a different opinion in regards to Ecumenism and thus are not a part of the GOA, which is on the New Calendar and is generally supportive of ecumenism.

I am an American convert who likes to build bridges between ethnic and convert.

In Christ,

Anastasios

[Fr. David]

Christian Hellenism is the term for the universal Christian culture, a synonym of which is called Romiosini.  Note that we are talking about culture.

This was a very intriguing series of posts, Anastasios, and something I have yet to even hear about in depth, much less understand.  It strikes me at first glace, though, as being a welcome departure from the uncalled-for overexaltation of cultural Greek Hellenism within parts of Orthodoxy, as well as a suitable alternative for Anglo-American, whitebread-infused (though artificially so) Orthodoxy.

Two things, though:

Are you sure Obolensky didn't write Byzantine Commonwealth?  I'm having trouble finding that title by Meyendorff and would be able to get a hold of Obolensky's book if that's the one you're referring to...

Secondly, could you indulge me and do a (brief, please, for both our sakes) compare/contrast of the major characteristics of Christian Hellenism?  I'd appreciate it...

[Anastasios]

Ack, sorry, Byz Common. is Oble. and Byzantium and the Rise of Russia was Meyendorff.

[Anastasios]

I am not sure I am qualified to flesh out Romiosini/Christian Hellenism at length...I will have to think about this one. FOr me, it's easy to see that God created the Roman Empire and used the Greek language for scripture (Septuagint and NT) to facilitate conversion.  It's also easy to see how Christian Hellenism is the antidote to nationalism because it sees Christ as the center of culture, which unites disparate people into one body...but to go into depth I am not sure...I will think and pray and consult my books to see if I can go deeper.

Anastasios

[Mo the Ethio]

And let's be truthfull. He probably took a little longer doing the blessing for those girls. 

    You sick ~~~~ ...........you have completely crossed all boundaries with this comment..........MODS ...this ~~~~  NEEDS TO BE BANNED....

 Use of profanity

[Dismus]

    You sick ~~~~...........you have completely crossed all boundaries with this comment..........MODS ...this ~~~~  NEEDS TO BE BANNED....

I can hardly believe that Tom would offend you since you seem to be so filled with the Holy Spirit to say such words....as the F word. The mods of course will give the OC a break on that one... But of course this is an Orthodox forum, that promotes Orthodox thought....

[Mo the Ethio]

I can hardly believe that Tom would offend you since you seem to be so filled with the Holy Spirit to say such words....as the F word. The mods of course will give the OC a break on that one... But of course this is an Orthodox forum, that promotes Orthodox thought....

You have kids ? do you have a daughter? ..............Dismus....perhaps you should convert before you talk as if you are Orthodox.

[Mo the Ethio]

what ...you never said the " f' word ............give me a ~~~~  break

[TomS]

You have kids ? do you have a daughter? ..............Dismus....perhaps you should convert before you talk as if you are Orthodox.

I have 3 kids - one is a 19 yo daughter. What's your point?

[Mo the Ethio]

I have 3 kids - one is a 19 yo daughter. What's your point?

   My reply was directed to Dismus and not your sorry ~~~~ .
 However , Now that I have your attention, you post all kinds of frivolous ~~~~ on  this forum , most of it meaningless drivel...and the one time you are called to task , you ask what is my point?
   Alright , ~~~~....like you don`t already know........you insinuate that the Bishop is prolonging his blessing for ulterior motives......as a Father of girls ( and women )  do you know no bounds of your (seeming harmless, yet highly offencive )  posts on this forum?

He has been put on post moderation for the time being, and thus will be unable to respond.  Your anger is understandable, but the language is something that can and should be controlled by a Christian, hence the warning. Refrain from this in the future while posting on the forum.  Thank you.  ~ Pedro

[Dismus]

You have kids ? do you have a daughter? ..............Dismus....perhaps you should convert before you talk as if you are Orthodox.

I do not talk like an Orthodox. Nor do I talk like an RC.
I am unsure how you talk though.
Are your words Orthodox in thought? If so, cite examples please.

[Dismus]

   My reply was directed to Dismus and not your sorry ass .
 However , Now that I have your attention, you post all kinds of frivolous S*it on  this forum , most of it meaningless drivel...and the one time you are called to task , you ask what is my point?
   Alright , dumbass....like you don`t already know........you insinuate that the Bishop is prolonging his blessing for ulterior motives......as a Father of girls ( and women )  do you know no bounds of your (seeming harmless, yet highly offencive )  posts on this forum?

This is how a new convert speaks after conversion to Orthodoxy?
Is this what can happen to you after the Orthodox get a hold of your used to be mind?

[Mo the Ethio]

I do not talk like an Orthodox. Nor do I talk like an RC.
I am unsure how you talk though.
Are your words Orthodox in thought? If so, cite examples please.

     I am the most Unorthodox Orthodox in the entire world .  If you don`t believe me , just ask my priest.

[Dismus]

     I am the most Unorthodox Orthodox in the entire world .  If you don`t believe me , just ask my priest.

Well, you are the poster child for "reasons why one should not convert" if you ask me.

[Fr. David]

Locked.