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Author Topic: Greek Catholics can set up patriarchate only by seizing churches by force - UOC  (Read 5745 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 11, 2006, 09:53:57 PM »

Greek Catholics can set up patriarchate only by seizing churches by force - Ukrainian Orthodox Church
10 July 2006, 14:23

Kiev, July 10, Interfax - The Ukrainian Orthodox Church does not exclude a possibility that the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church (UGCC) may establish a patriarchate of its own.

The Ukrainian issue of the Kommersant daily has reported Monday that the recognition of the UGCC Patriarchate of Kiev and Galicia was considered at the Uniate Synod session held from June 25 to July 5 in Rome.

‘The Greek Catholics will never have a patriarchate, except that they seize churches by force and thus seek to establish a patriarchate’, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church press service commented on the UGCC’s intention.

However, according to the daily, the Vatican approves of the Greek-Catholic intention to set up their own patriarchate as an important step towards the creation of one Church in Ukraine.

As a Vatican source informed Kommersant, the UGCC patriarchate ‘will help elevate the status (of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic - IF) Church and make it possible to unite the Orthodox and the Catholics in Ukraine, to unite the Churches’.

Bishop Gleb Lonchina, apostolic visitator for the Greek-Catholic Ukrainians in Italy, Spain and Ireland, also stated that Pope Benedict XVI himself had approved the idea of a UGCC patriarchate.

UGCC Supreme Archbishop Lubomir Husar is expected to publicize the results of the Synod on Monday. In case of a positive decision, the Church will be granted administrative independence and the powers of its head will become considerably broader.

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=1701
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2006, 11:42:21 PM »

So much for this pope...where is Orthodoc when we need him?  Wink
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« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2006, 09:29:36 AM »

This is an easy situation for the Greek-Catholics to remedy, simply sever allegiance to the Pope and repent and all will be well, nothing else really needs to be changed since their practices are almost identical to Eastern Orthodox Slavic Practice.


-Nick
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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2006, 09:40:33 AM »

This is an easy situation for the Greek-Catholics to remedy, simply sever allegiance to the Pope and repent and all will be well, nothing else really needs to be changed since their practices are almost identical to Eastern Orthodox Slavic Practice.


-Nick

Knowing how nationalistic the Ukrainians are in general I wouldnt be surprised if they did become more Autonomous (Autocephalous maybe)ÂÂ  than Rome would like.  It will be interesting to see if the Patriarchy is really a Patriarchy.

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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2006, 11:25:21 AM »

Quote
So much for this pope...

Well, here's the contradiction that historically the Orthodox complain about the Pope interfering in local bishops' matters, then when somebody threatens to step on their toes they complain that the Pope doesn't interfere!

I don't think they'll seize any more churches. Whether they reneged on an agreement or not, they took back what the Communists stole from them and gave to the Orthodox in their native Galicia about 15 years ago. That's over.

Quote
where is Orthodoc when we need him?


He and Gerard Bugge (RIP) made good bookends.

Quote
This is an easy situation for the Greek-Catholics to remedy, simply sever allegiance to the Pope and repent and all will be well, nothing else really needs to be changed since their practices are almost identical to Eastern Orthodox Slavic Practice.

First of all, Eastern Orthodox Slavic practice is a pretty broad category and second, Ukrainian Catholic practice is very self-latinised, made deliberately not like the Orthodox as a display of their nationalism (to show they're not Russian) and incidentally they're disobeying Rome in this mistaken gesture of 'proving they're Catholic'.

It'll be interesting to see what the Vatican does if the UGCC go as far as to declare themselves a patriarchate. I predict they'll act by not acting and won't throw them out, not after all they'd been through under the Communists.

But given that these Galician Ukrainians seem to value Galician Ukrainianism above obeying their church, and the nationalistic overtures of the uncanonical Kyiv Patriarchate (headed by the ex-Russian Orthodox metropolitan Filaret), maybe a big merger/rival to the Russian Orthodox metropolia of Kiev is in the making. President Yushchenko, one of Filaret's parishioners, seems fine with that as part of his anti-Russian, pro-Western platform. And with the US favouring Mr Yushchenko...

Again, I don't predict these people being excommunicated by Rome if they go through with this on their own even though eventual corporate reunion and non-proselytism of born Orthodox are still official Vatican policy.

Contradictory? Sure. Maybe even hypocritical. That's politics. Happens everywhere, even in church circles. Fallen human nature you know.
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« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2006, 12:02:36 PM »

As a Vatican source informed Kommersant, the UGCC patriarchate ‘will help elevate the status (of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic - IF) Church and make it possible to unite the Orthodox and the Catholics in Ukraine, to unite the Churches’.
Does anyone else spot the flaw in logic with the notion that setting up another patriarchate in the same geographical area is a step towards unity? I wonder if we should follow this "wise" example and set up an Orthodox Pope and Patriarch of Old Rome as a diplomatic step "towards" unity?
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« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2006, 12:22:39 PM »

Quote
Whether they reneged on an agreement or not, they took back what the Communists stole from them and gave to the Orthodox in their native Galicia about 15 years ago. That's over.

They also took churches that were never originally Greek Catholic, and also churches where the majority was Orthodox and did not want to return to the Greek Catholic Church. The whole situation was messy.

Anastasios
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« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2006, 12:42:11 PM »

Am I confusing Ukrainian Greek Catholic with Orthodox Greek Catholic? I assumed it was exactly the same except for the Nationalist part.

-Nick
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« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2006, 12:49:18 PM »

I don't think any church in the Ukraine is called 'Orthodox Greek Catholic'. In that part of the world 'Greek Catholic' always means a church under Rome.
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« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2006, 01:49:39 PM »

These were the main partisans:

Byzantine (Rite) Ukrainian Greek Catholics--in communion with Rome, using the Byzantine Rite (called Uniates by some, although this is considered offensive by them).

Russian Orthodox (Moscow Patriarchate)--in the East of the Country mostly

Ukrainian Orthodox Autocephalous Church--in Galicia, not considered "canonical" by the MP

the Vatican--had interests in the region mediating/interfering (how you look at it depends on your point of view).

The MP had stolen a large number of Ukrainian Greek Catholic Churches in 1946; many of these were repossesed. The problem was that the UAOC also was a competitor and it lost several (dozen? not sure on the number) parishes to the Ukrainian Greek Catholics, which had never been Greek Catholic to begin with (although they probably were part of the Church of Russia to begin with, hence the MP's case they were stolen FROM THEM).

The MP also did its share of Church stealing back. The Vatican sold out the Ukrainian Catholics at one point as well.  Like I said--a mess. I did a 12 page paper on it in seminary 2 years ago and I already am quite rusty on the details.

Anastasios
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« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2006, 02:26:41 PM »

The only reason I was asking is because the ACROD originally was known as the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese and was uniate for a time period. That's why I saw Greek Catholic and made the tie together.

Thanks young fogey and Anastasios for bearing with me on this

-Nick
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« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2006, 03:21:41 PM »

The only reason I was asking is because the ACROD originally was known as the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese and was uniate for a time period. That's why I saw Greek Catholic and made the tie together.

Close. The thirty seven parishes which comprised ACROD orginally came from the "unia", but ACROD has never been in communion with Rome.

The name of the diocese may very well still be the official, incorporated name - it's still on the seal.
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« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2006, 08:10:50 PM »

Well at any rate, I'm glad we got that cleared up. Thanks everyone  Smiley


-Nick
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« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2006, 09:57:24 AM »

The UGCC has already delcared itself a patriarchate, Archbishop Lubomyr is commemorated as such although he does not use the title himself, and they are building a Patriarchal Cathedral in Kiev.  They await confirmation from Rome, which appears likely from Pope Benedict.  In actual fact they would not operate any differently than they do now save for when the elect the patriarch they simply enthrone him and need no confirmation from Rome as they do now.

As to relations with the Orthodox, it always strikes me as somewhat hypocritical that Orthodox are offended by Greek Catholic jurisdictions on their turf, when they have no hesitation in setting up their own in Italy, Spain, France, etc.  Also if ecumenism and unity are at such a premium, why don't the Orthodox dissolve the Patirachates in Antioch or Alexandria as a nod to the Oriental Orthodox patriarchs who are the natives.

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« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2006, 10:02:25 AM »

Then I shall assume that is your blessing of our re-establishing a patriarchate of Rome given that the formerly Orthodox one is lost? After all, metropolis, patriarchate - no difference, eh?   Wink
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« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2006, 11:16:41 AM »

I would not object.  I believe in everyones right to worship and organize themselves as they see fit.
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« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2006, 05:51:15 PM »

I would not object.ÂÂ  I believe in everyones right to worship and organize themselves as they see fit.

I think it is time for the MP to grant Autocephaly to the UOC so they can have their own Patriarch as well.  This Im sure will speed up unity.   
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« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2006, 08:02:16 PM »

I would not object.ÂÂ  I believe in everyones right to worship and organize themselves as they see fit.

OF COURSE you wouldn't object. Setting up contra-patriarchates has been standard Roman papal operating procedure for centuries. Why should they change now?

But we don't do it.
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« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2006, 09:39:42 AM »

"But we don't do it."

Seems to me there are Eastern Orthodox patriarchates in Alexandria and Antioch where the natives are Copts and Syrians.

And you certainly do set up jurisdictions in traditionally Latin Catholic countries.  Call it an Exarchate or Diocese it is the same thing.

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« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2006, 09:57:46 AM »

"But we don't do it."

Seems to me there are Eastern Orthodox patriarchates in Alexandria and Antioch where the natives are Copts and Syrians.

Which have always been there and are continuing patriarchates; not the same as this UGCC creation or the Latin setup after 1204 in Constantinople, or the one in Jerusalem or wherever else -I'm sure there are more.
Quote
And you certainly do set up jurisdictions in traditionally Latin Catholic countries.  Call it an Exarchate or Diocese it is the same thing.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Once, again, of course this would be your response. As nuanced as the semantics may seem, there is still weight attached to "patriarch" that the RCC uses in its proselitzing efforts.
We've argued this numerous times in the past.
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« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2006, 10:04:14 AM »

While exarchates for Greeks and Russians in Western Europe that have little chance of converting actual Catholics (some parishes were even expelled because the MP did not want to offend the Vatican, witness the pseudo-Greek Old Calendarist* Synod of Milan) are qualitatively different from patriarchates created in the heartland of Orthodoxy for groups whose sole reason for being created was to convert Orthodox, I will say that Deacon Lance does have a point if we approach things from the persective of religious liberty.

That's why I could care less what the Greek Catholics are doing. If they exist, so what? Let them live their faith as they see fit. I used to be one, it's not like we sat around all night conspiring on how to get more Orthodox.  The fact of the matter is, Orthodox should not make deals with Catholics that will in any way limit Orthodox proselytism of Catholics in Catholic countries like Mexico or Italy. Hence, I am against signing mutual restraint treaties. Let the Greek Catholics do what they want--if we Orthodox live the faith fervently we have nothing to fear. And then we can with a clear conscience convert all the Catholics we can in Italy, Mexico, France, Spain, etc.

Anastasios

(* What I mean is, people who used the Greek Old Calendarists to "get orders" by taking advantage of our former incompetent Archbishop and then running off on their own).
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« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2006, 10:13:52 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9497.msg127588#msg127588 date=1152675741]
So much for this pope...where is Orthodoc when we need him?ÂÂ  Wink
[/quote]

I'm busy discussing this very same issue in the 'Eastern Christianity' section of Catholic Answers.ÂÂ  My comments -

==========

Notice how they talk about a ONE UNITED UKRAINIAN CHURCH rather than either a church under the authority of either Rome (Roman Catholic) or any of the canonical Orthodox patriarchs (Orthodox Catholic). Once again, their priorities for this 'one united Ukrainian Church' is not based on either theology or doctrine but nationalism, politics, and ethnic purity and hatred. And they will continue to emphasize this because it is the only hope they have of gaining any adherents. To prey on the religious ignorance of a people that were deprived of 70+ years of religious instruction and see the church strictly as a national institution rather than the church of Christ on earth.

Most of them hold no loyalty to either Roma or any of the Orthodox patriarchs. Only their Ukrainian culture, traditions, and politics. (Same stands for those noncanonical Orthodox). How very sad.

They condemn those canonical Orthodox who are automonous while downplaying their sui juris status which gives them less freedom under Rome than their Orthodox Catholic counterpart has by being in communion with the MP. Seems like when they don't like what Roma says they just ignore it. Example: Those who already refer to Cardinal Husar as Patriarch in spite of what the pope has decreed at this time.

How sad.

Orthodoc

----------

More double talk from Cardinal Husar -

==========

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f...n/1492225/posts
Cardinal Husar denounces Uniatism - urges establishment of one Orthodox-Catholic Church in Ukraine
Interfax ^ | September 24, 2005

Posted on 09/27/2005 10:05:14 AM PDT by NYer

Moscow, September 24, Interfax - Cardinal Lubomyr Husar, head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholics, following President Viktor Yuschenko, has spoken in favour of establishing a one Church in Ukraine.

According to the cardinal, all the church problems would be solved, ‘if Ukraine had one patriarch for all’. This is the basis on which both the Orthodox and Catholics could ‘return to the primary unity’, he believes as cited by the Religious Information Service in Ukraine this week.
At the same time, he adds, ‘there are no claims that a Greek Catholic should be the patriarch’; what is only important is that ‘this patriarch should be a person capable of uniting all’.
However, Husar lays down the condition ‘that this Church and this patriarch should be united with Rome’. It seems to mean that if the patriarch is not initially Uniate, he will have to join the Unia afterwards. [Note: Contradiction?]

The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, its leader affirms, ‘continues the historical policy of the Kiev Metropolia’, but as the cardinal’s present designation of ‘supreme archbishop’ is little known in ‘the tradition of Eastern Churches’, ‘an ordinary Christian does not know what to do with it’. In Husar’s view, the UGCC ‘has long grown up to act as patriarchate, for it is a natural development for a Local Church in the Eastern tradition’.
At the same time the cardinal is concerned about ‘the failure of the Latin theology to appreciate any sharing between Local Churches and Rome’. The Vatican, he believes, understood unity ‘as subjection’ and this process was called ‘Uniatism’.
‘Denouncing Uniatism today’, Husar points out, he seeks ‘a vision of unity which should be built not on uniformity, but on the preservation of everyone’s own tradition in the form of sharing’.
This is ‘a rather complicated’ problem and, to the cardinal’s regret, ‘not quite adequately solved’. The Ukrainian Greek Catholics, however, intend ‘to move towards its solution and to be in the vanguard’, though ‘not everyone in Rome has been made to change his mind’.
The Supreme Archbishop underscores that in the matter of one Church ‘much hangs on relations with the Orthodox’, referring to both the Ukrainian Orthodox Church linked with the Moscow Patriarchate and the unrecognized Ukrainian Autocephalous Church.
He believes however that among the Orthodox ‘the spiritual processes develop in a very much disordered way’ - a reason for which ‘we all are in a rather chaotic state, from which we should come out step by step’.
Husar says he would welcome the emergence of three patriarchs in Kiev at once, ‘Russian Orthodox, Greek Catholic and Autocephalous’, because they would make ‘three partners in negotiations’, and this would make ‘a concrete talk much easier’ and help to come ‘to the idea of one patriarch and one patriarchate’ much sooner. [Note: Another contradiction? We have to separate further tin order to unite?]

According to the cardinal, ‘neither Moscow nor Rome will give us our unity’. It has to be developed independently. [Note: To hell with both. We will just become noncanonical]And then ‘Rome, Constantinople or Moscow, which is much younger compared to them, will just accept this fact’. He sees it more desirable to consider this issue ‘in a discussion in which various confessions and the government could participate’, since ‘the Ukrainian president has stated on many occasions that the government would like to see a one Local Church’.
In order to influence those Ukrainians who ‘are not disposed’ to such a dialogue today, the cardinal proposes to use the existing ‘examples of certain decisions’. He cites Northern Ireland, where ‘people are struggling for a life in harmony’. His also cited relations between the Palestinian and the Israeli as a similar example. [Note: Why does he use politics as an example?]
In Husar’s opinion, the negotiations on unification should be started by ‘people with higher education and solid religious training’. In doing so, they should understand that the aim of the negotiations is already clear: ‘the Church should be one, and we all recognize it’, so the unification ‘is not a matter of our good will. It is the commandment that is in point’.

==============

Orthodoc


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« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2006, 11:36:07 PM »


And you certainly do set up jurisdictions in traditionally Latin Catholic countries.  Call it an Exarchate or Diocese it is the same thing.


Sorry; this was a thread  interrupted by the cyber-terrorists.
I'd like to add to my reply above that I might buy part of DL's argument IF we were establishing patriarchates in the west, dressing up our clergy as Latins, celebrating a western mass, in Latin, and told the people we were Catholic (which we are) just not in communion with the Pope.

And please don't bring up the very few western rite parishes we have unless you really believe them to be a threat; in which case that would prove my point.
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« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2006, 02:39:34 AM »


[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9497.msg128064#msg128064 date=1153193767]
Sorry; this was a threadÂÂ  interrupted by the cyber-terrorists.
I'd like to add to my reply above that I might buy part of DL's argument IF we were establishing patriarchates in the west, dressing up our clergy as Latins, celebrating a western mass, in Latin, and told the people we were Catholic (which we are) just not in communion with the Pope.

And please don't bring up the very few western rite parishes we have unless you really believe them to be a threat; in which case that would prove my point.

ÂÂ  The fact of the matter is, Orthodox should not make deals with Catholics that will in any way limit Orthodox proselytism of Catholics in Catholic countries like Mexico or Italy. Hence, I am against signing mutual restraint treaties. Let the Greek Catholics do what they want--if we Orthodox live the faith fervently we have nothing to fear. And then we can with a clear conscience convert all the Catholics we can in Italy, Mexico, France, Spain, etc.


[/quote]
Anastasios and Aristocles Sorry about this I just get baffled with all this technology around me  Undecided

I have nothing to add.Nice thoughts.The same old popes story. You be what ever you want <<Orthodox>> Christian,muslim ,Coptic christian,jew,induist, atheist,protestant Christian,what ever as long you recognise him as the head as the suprime!I do understand why this cardinal uses paradigms from the political realm.Roman catholic church is primary a political institution  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚Â
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« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2006, 10:47:00 AM »

Aristocles,

"I'd like to add to my reply above that I might buy part of DL's argument IF we were establishing patriarchates in the west, dressing up our clergy as Latins, celebrating a western mass, in Latin, and told the people we were Catholic (which we are) just not in communion with the Pope."

I would buy your arguement if we were doing such things.  It is not as if we are importing Italians or French into Ukraine or Romania or anywhere else.  These are native Eastern Christians who choose to be in Communion with Rome.  You might not like it or agree with it, but it is fact.

If the Ukrainian Church is raised to the rank of patriarchate what does it matter?  How many times has it been said here that in Eastern ecclesiology every bishop is equal or that all Autocephalous Churches are equal regardless of the title of the primate?

Moscow's arguement is that no Catholic diocese or exarchy should exist on their canonical territory.  They throw fits everytime a diocese is erected Latin or Eastern.  Which is fine as arguements go, but the MP certainly does not refrain from setting up dioceses in Western Europe.

The bottom line is either you believe in freedom of religion or you don't.  Sadly many Orthodox seem like hypocrites on this point, complaining, and rightly so, when they are denied this freedom but then turning around and denying other Christians this same freedom in places they control.

Fr. Deacon Lance


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« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2006, 10:49:44 AM »

Sorry, friend, but I do not know the status of 'other' Christians.

Hypocracy seems an easy charge - one that cuts both ways.
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« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2006, 12:04:20 PM »

Aristocles,

You surely know the status of Orthodox Churches.ÂÂ  Name any that today are being harassed in a Catholic country, that are being kept from building churches or being kept from organizing due to registration laws.

The above is currently done to Catholics in Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and Romania.ÂÂ  Not too mention harassment of Protestant Churches.

On the otherhand you will find Catholics: giving money to Aid to the Church in Need which has been helping the Orthodox Church, the Pope giving Churches to the Orthodox in Rome, the Orthodox being given a Chapel in Bari.

Fr. Deacon Lance

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« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2006, 12:06:39 PM »

Aristocles,

"I'd like to add to my reply above that I might buy part of DL's argument IF we were establishing patriarchates in the west, dressing up our clergy as Latins, celebrating a western mass, in Latin, and told the people we were Catholic (which we are) just not in communion with the Pope."

I would buy your arguement if we were doing such things. ÂÂ It is not as if we are importing Italians or French into Ukraine or Romania or anywhere else. ÂÂ These are native Eastern Christians who choose to be in Communion with Rome. ÂÂ You might not like it or agree with it, but it is fact.If the Ukrainian Church is raised to the rank of patriarchate what does it matter?ÂÂ  How many times has it been said here that in Eastern ecclesiology every bishop is equal or that all Autocephalous Churches are equal regardless of the title of the primate?

Moscow's arguement is that no Catholic diocese or exarchy should exist on their canonical territory.ÂÂ  They throw fits everytime a diocese is erected Latin or Eastern.ÂÂ  Which is fine as arguements go, but the MP certainly does not refrain from setting up dioceses in Western Europe.

The bottom line is either you believe in freedom of religion or you don't.ÂÂ  Sadly many Orthodox seem like hypocrites on this point, complaining, and rightly so, when they are denied this freedom but then turning around and denying other Christians this same freedom in places they control.

Fr. Deacon Lance




How many of the current UGC priests and nuns have been imported from Poland Fr Deacon Lance?  And one has to take notice that, in spite of how many times the Quadriparitie Comission has been brought up here, your comment that all these people chose the Unia both in 1596 and in the 1990's is questionable -

============

Reagrding the Quadripartitie Commission

Now, at the end of 1980s, under the influence of the nationalist movement in Western Ukraine, the Greek Catholics began to re-establish their presence in the region. What may have become a restoration of justice, however, turned out to be a crying injustice, since the revival of the Greek Catholic Church took place at the expense of the Orthodox Church. On 29 October 1989, the Greek Catholics seized the Transfiguration Cathedral of Lvov, after expelling the Orthodox from it. Shortly thereafter, many similar acts occurred in other parts of the country.

January 1990 saw the creation of the so-called Quadrennial Commission, which comprised representatives of the Moscow Patriarchate, the Roman Catholic Church, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the Eastern Rite Catholics from Western Ukraine. The Commission began to discuss concrete cases of human rights violations during the campaign launched by the Uniates. In March 1990, the Commission developed basic principles for the distribution of the property between the Greek Catholics and the Orthodox. It was agreed that, where there are two churches, one should be given to the Greek Catholics and another one remain Orthodox; where there is only one church, it should belong to the majority group, which must in this case help the minority find or build a suitable place of worship. However, on 13 March 1990, the Greek Catholics unilaterally left the Commission. From then on the seizure of the Orthodox churches (some of them had belonged to the Orthodox even before the Union of 1596) assumed an avalanche-like character. In many places violent methods were employed by the Greek Catholics as they seized Orthodox churches and expelled parishioners from their places of worship. Tensions between the Orthodox and the Greek Catholics led to clashes and mass disorders. By the end of 1990, most churches in Lvov, Ternopol and Ivano-Frankovsk had been captured and by the end of 1991, 597 churches had been taken from the Orthodox.
Commenting on these events, the Theological Commission of the Russian Orthodox Church stated in 1997:

In such a situation it was important to do the utmost to bring home to public opinion, to international organizations, to Christian Churches, including the Roman Catholic Church, that beating Orthodoxy in Western Ukraine was not only an act of violation of human rights and religious freedom, but also an annihilation of whatever progress the dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches had made in the previous years. It was essential to show that Uniatism was a dangerous and unacceptable way for achieving unity.

The Unia has brought about new divisions, tearing the One Body of the Orthodox Church. The four centuries of its maintenance have revealed it as a dangerous form of proselytism against Orthodoxy. Human suffering and even bloodshed were the sad aftermath of the divisions it had caused.

At the same time, it is important to emphasize that, while repudiating Unia as a method, the Churches do not abjure people. The Greek Catholic communities existing today, with a legal right to exist, like any other religious organization or association, should cease to be the source of divisions and conflicts between the Orthodox and Catholics. To serve this purpose, rules should be worked out to regulate co-existence and relations in places where there is tension causing suffering among the people of God.

The revival of the Greek Catholic Church in Western Ukraine, accompanied as it was by violence, together with other, similar events in the Transcarpathian region, brought the Joint Catholic-Orthodox Commission to decide on suspending the discussion of purely theological topics and to turn to the burning issue of Uniatism. In 1990, the sixth plenary session of the Commission in Freising (Munich) set out to discuss the matter. The Statement that ensued said, among other things, that 'Unia, as a method, failed-where it was introduced-to bring the Churches closer. On the contrary, it caused further disunity. The situation, as a whole, gave occasion to confrontation and pain which became imprinted in the historical memory of both Churches. Ecclesiological motives, too, call for some other methods to be found'. Both sides of the Commission were resolute in their denunciation of Uniatism: 'We reject it as a method for the search for unity because it is opposed to the common tradition of our Churches'. The Freising Statement was accepted with satisfaction by most Orthodox Churches. The Roman Catholic Church, however, did not ratify it.

In 1993, the seventh plenary session of the Joint Commission took place in Balamand, Lebanon. The representatives of the Roman Catholic Church and those of the Orthodox Churches (excluding the Patriarchate of Jerusalem and the Greek, Serbian, Bulgarian and Czechoslovak Churches) agreed on the theological principles and practical recommendations with regard to Uniatism. Once again, it was stated that Uniatism is not a method for achieving unity between the Catholics and the Orthodox:

Because of the way in which Catholics and Orthodox once again consider each other in relationship to the mystery of the Church and discover each other once again as Sister Churches, this form of 'missionary apostolate' described above, and which has been called 'uniatism', can no longer be accepted either as a method to be followed or as a model of the unity our Churches are seeking.

All forms of proselytism were strongly condemned, and a call to mutual collaboration was made:

While the inviolable freedom of persons and their obligation to follow the requirements of their conscience remain secure, in the search for re-establishing unity there is no question of conversion of people from one Church to the other in order to ensure their salvation.

The Eastern Catholic Churches... should be inserted, on both local and universal levels, into the dialogue of love, in mutual respect and reciprocal trust found once again, and enter into the theological dialogue, with all its practical implications.

Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other; that is to say, it no longer aims at proselytizing among the Orthodox. It aims at answering the spiritual needs of its own faithful and it has no desire for expansion at the expense of the Orthodox Church.

Religious freedom would be violated when, under the cover of financial assistance, the faithful of one Church would be attracted to the other, by promises, for example, of education and material benefits that may be lacking in their own Church. In this context, it will be necessary that social assistance, as well as every form of philanthropic activity, be organized with common agreement so as to avoid creating new suspicions.

Furthermore, the necessary respect for Christian freedom - one of the most precious gifts received from Christ - should not become an occasion for undertaking a pastoral project which may also involve the faithful of other Churches, without previous consultation with the pastors of these Churches.

Those in charge of the communities concerned should create joint local commissions or make effective those which already exist, for finding solutions to concrete problems and seeing that these solutions are applied in truth and love, in justice and peace. If agreement cannot be reached on the local level, the question should be brought to mixed commissions established by higher authorities.

Suspicion would disappear more easily if the two parties were to condemn violence wherever communities of one Church use it against communities of a Sister Church.

============

Orthodoc




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« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2006, 12:14:03 PM »

Sorry, Deacon, I trust nothing from Rome. Loaned churches and returned ("Oops, where did that icon come from?") gifts do not impress me.
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« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2006, 12:38:27 PM »

"How many of the current UGC priests and nuns have been imported from Poland Fr Deacon Lance?"

I don't know, but would it matter there are two UGCC eparchies in Poland so I doubt they could spare many priests and nuns for Ukraine?  In any case, The Eparchy of Premysl which was Ukrainian ended up being included in Poland after WWII.  Where do think the Polish Orthodox Church came from? ÂÂ

"And one has to take notice that, in spite of how many times the Quadriparitie Comission has been brought up here, your comment that all these people chose the Unia both in 1596 and in the 1990's is questionable -"

I would agree that in the Unia of 1596 it is hard to gauge how many desired union, how many just followed their bishop, or how many accepted simply union because they were in a Catholic kingdom, but such were the times of Monarchy.

The 1990 is a different story.  There are many independent accounts of the reemergence of the UGCC.  We know how many Greek Catholics there were before the liquidation and the current numbers of the UGCC reflect those.  Pre-war estimates had the UGCC at 3-5 million.  The most recent yearbook states 3.5 million members in Ukraine.

The situation of the Romanian Greek Catholic Church validates the UGCC's decision not to abide by the Quadripartite Agreement.  They have lived by a similar agreement and to date have received less than 10% of their Churches back.  The Romanian Orthodox have taken to bulldozing the buildings when the courts decide in favor of the RGCC.  The notable exception has been Metropolitan Daniel of Transylvania who has returned the majority of the Churches given to RGCC.

This does not excuse the violence perpetrated by members of the UGCC, but it shows where the UGCC would be if they had tried negotiating with the MP.


Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2006, 12:43:03 PM »

Thank god for those Bulldozers., although I favor the slash and burn policy
Foti


The situation of the Romanian Greek Catholic Church validates the UGCC's decision not to abide by the Quadripartite Agreement.  They have lived by a similar agreement and to date have received less than 10% of their Churches back.  The Romanian Orthodox have taken to bulldozing the buildings when the courts decide in favor of the RGCC.  The notable exception has been Metropolitan Daniel of Transylvania who has returned the majority of the Churches given to RGCC.
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« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2006, 01:04:04 PM »

No, thank God for you sdcheung.  Your usual un-Christian comment only reaffirms my point.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2006, 01:07:40 PM »

Reinforce what? You guys shouldn't even exist..either come back to Orthodoxy or go to Roman rite permanently
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« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2006, 01:41:33 PM »

You reaffirm my contention that the UGCC was justified in its decision to pull out of negotiations rather than wait for the Orthodox to give them back.

Unfortunately for you and fortunately for us we live in a society that supports freedom of religion and we can do what we like in spite of what others would like us to do.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2006, 02:12:46 PM »

You reaffirm my contention that the UGCC was justified in its decision to pull out of negotiations rather than wait for the Orthodox to give them back.

Unfortunately for you and fortunately for us we live in a society that supports freedom of religion and we can do what we like in spite of what others would like us to do.

Fr. Deacon Lance

yeah..I wish the East Roman Empire were resurrected.
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« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2006, 02:31:12 PM »

[ (1): The situation of the Romanian Greek Catholic Church validates the UGCC's decision not to abide by the Quadripartite Agreement.  They have lived by a similar agreement and to date have received less than 10% of their Churches back. (2) The Romanian Orthodox have taken to bulldozing the buildings when the courts decide in favor of the RGCC.  The notable exception has been Metropolitan Daniel of Transylvania who has returned the majority of the Churches given to RGCC.]


Reply:


(1):  Once again you seem to be mixing apples with oranges.  Nothing justifies signing an agreement where the members of each individual parish are given the right to determine what church they wanted to belong to and then have that right taken from them and their churches taken by force.  Especially when the very same people who turned their backs on the agreement and used force to obtain their goals are complaining about the lack of rights and freedom elsewhere!

(2):  Why are the courts making the decisions if the Church in Romania has a similiar agreement in effect?  The courts shouldn't be involved at all.  Only the churches that signed the agreement and the people who voted. 

Orthodoc

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« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2006, 02:34:22 PM »

You reaffirm my contention that the UGCC was justified in its decision to pull out of negotiations rather than wait for the Orthodox to give them back.

Unfortunately for you and fortunately for us we live in a society that supports freedom of religion and we can do what we like in spite of what others would like us to do.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Abiding by the Quadripartite Agreement would have given the people the right to use freedom of religion to decide what they wanted to be.  Using force, descerating temples, changing locks on church doors, disrupting Liturgies to force people out of the building is not freedom of religion my friend.

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« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2006, 03:06:01 PM »

"Why are the courts making the decisions if the Church in Romania has a similiar agreement in effect?  The courts shouldn't be involved at all.  Only the churches that signed the agreement and the people who voted."

Because after the votes take place and the outcome favors the Greek Catholics the Orthodox refuse to give them back.  The only recourse left is the courts.  And as stated once the court finds in favor of the RGCs they bulldoze the church or simply refuse to give it back and nothing is done because local officials won't enforce the ruling.  I have no reason to believe the MP would have behaved any differently. 

Look at the current fights and  property squabbles between the MP and the KP.  Again nothing justifies violence but the UGCC was simply reclaiming stolen property, most churches being built long after the Unions of Brest and Uzhorod.  You are fooling yourself if you think the majority of those parishes were going to vote to remain with the MP.  Look how many defected to the KP.  In Slovakia, the voting had to be stopped or the Orthodox wouldn't have retained hardly any churches.  After 260 or so Churches voted to go Greek Catholic the voting was stopped and the remaining churches, 50 or so were given to the Orthodox. 

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2006, 03:07:07 PM »

yeah..I wish the East Roman Empire were resurrected.

Thank you, Φώτιος, for taking up my slack; I usually hang around when Orthodoc and Deacon Lance go keyboard-to-keyboard and provide commentary or just sell peanuts.  Cheesy

How ironic that while DL is here posting away that on his 'natural' forum, ByzCath, there was a current thread in which a BC poster was wondering if the UGCC should go to the EP! to straighten out the Ukraine and bag Rome...almost simultaneously in another thread where a BC opines that with the losses to Latin parishes the BCC should not only follow ACROD's lead, but join us. Both threads are dreaming, of course; but ironic nevertheless.
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« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2006, 05:57:01 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9497.msg128351#msg128351 date=1153422427]
Thank you, Φώτιος, for taking up my slack; I usually hang around when Orthodoc and Deacon Lance go keyboard-to-keyboard and provide commentary or just sell peanuts.ÂÂ  Cheesy

How ironic that while DL is here posting away that on his 'natural' forum, ByzCath, there was a current thread in which a BC poster was wondering if the UGCC should go to the EP! to straighten out the Ukraine and bag Rome...almost simultaneously in another thread where a BC opines that with the losses to Latin parishes the BCC should not only follow ACROD's lead, but join us. Both threads are dreaming, of course; but ironic nevertheless.
[/quote]

I'll take a bag!

-Nick
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« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2006, 11:44:56 AM »

Does anyone else spot the flaw in logic with the notion that setting up another patriarchate in the same geographical area is a step towards unity? I wonder if we should follow this "wise" example and set up an Orthodox Pope and Patriarch of Old Rome as a diplomatic step "towards" unity?
Is the new Orthodox temple in Rome a Cathedral? Will there be an Eastern Orthodox bishop of Rome? (I am not being sarcastic. I am seriously curious).
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« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2006, 12:02:17 PM »

Is the new Orthodox temple in Rome a Cathedral? Will there be an Eastern Orthodox bishop of Rome? (I am not being sarcastic. I am seriously curious).

I highly doubt it.
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« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2006, 02:17:19 PM »

I'll take a bag!

-Nick

In honor of your birthday today - the nuts are free  Grin
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