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Author Topic: Struggle to Free the Ecumenical Patriarchate, Not Only Aghia Sophia  (Read 7954 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2006, 03:32:28 PM »

Quote
The funny thing is that these actions against the Greeks, Armenians, and Kurds have been done by the "westernized" and "secularized" government that Attaturk dreamed of.  This secularized government, run by the military, also happens to be quite racist; at least the Ottomans classed us by religion.

Secularized only in the Hitler, Stalin, et al. sense of the word.  I was going towards a more specific America/Canadian/EU type of secularization where religious and ethnic minorities have a great deal of freedom.  Such a transformation isn't impossible, look at the difference between modern Germany of Hitler's Germany.  For now that is, I think, the best hope for Orthodox (and others) in Turkey.  Another megali idea taking political control of Turkey doesn't seem likely. 

Quote
Your book, Νεκταριος, is wrong.

I think you'll find that most scholarly accounts of the population exchange do document that many Muslims were expelled from Greece.  The presence of intact communities in Thrace doesn't mean that some Muslims weren't expelled.  Again I'm not stating that the two were equal in nature, only that it wasn't as black and white as some wish to describe it here.

Quote
I'm sure that if some Korean tribe comes into Poland, takes away like hlaf of it ,expelling it's people, starving and genociding them, you're answer would be different than it is right now towards Asia Minor.

I do get very tired of being in a church that extols and even venerates the Tsarist regime that certainly wasn't all too kind to Poland.  But I've also come to realize that the average Russian is hardly responsible for what the Soviet Army did to Poland, nor is today's German responsible for what the Nazis did to Poles either.  I really am surprised at how much pent up anger and lack of forgiveness exists under the aegis of "Orthodoxy."  I do sometimes wonder what the point of the Orthodox Church is if such basic concepts of Christianity as love and forgiveness are ignored.  Really what moral benefit is derived from being Orthodox if my nominally Roman Catholic family has forgiven those who murdered family and friends, tortured, pillaged etc. their homeland?
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« Reply #46 on: July 13, 2006, 04:02:28 PM »

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Really what moral benefit is derived from being Orthodox if my nominally Roman Catholic family has forgiven those who murdered family and friends, tortured, pillaged etc. their homeland?

A loss is a loss and should be remembered and forgiven. But, there are things which differ from that example. Should/could a mother of a child forgive it's murderer during the actual process of the murder? Surely many people do not have the ability to forgive someone for doing such a horrific act alltogether, now imaging asking them to forgive the killer WHILE he is doing it. My point is, Orthodox land, such as the eastern balkans, and Hellenic lands are constantly being battered and assaulted. I mean, sorry to stray from the topic a little but look at the whole serbian nationality! it is soully based on suffering and losses. The national holiday for heavens sake is a complete crushing by the ottoman army!

Then, just when you build up the strength and faith to forgive and maybe even forget, BAM it happens to again. Eventually you lose the will to reconcile, because you are either paranoid it will happen again or you know it will. I have read about what happened in Poland, but imagine if it just kept happening and happening, you almost get used to it. To lead a successful country, you need to forget about morals and pray for forgiveness because we all sin anyways, but some almsot have no choice.
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« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2006, 05:41:16 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9493.msg127782#msg127782 date=1152819148]
 I really am surprised at how much pent up anger and lack of forgiveness exists under the aegis of "Orthodoxy."  [/quote]
Woah.....Stop right there.
Please tell us when you received this charism to see into people's hearts and judge them? Or perhaps it was cleveland relating his experiences of helenophiles in Constantinople, or my experiences of a situation of ill treatment at the hands of Turkish military which I laugh at, or perhaps the experience of Αριστοκλής who laughed at himself and called himself "silly" for refusing to step off the boat onto Turkish soil which gives you the impression that we are an angry, unforgiving mob.......
Note the word in bold....everyone else is speaking from it- you are speaking from theories in your head.
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« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2006, 06:09:43 PM »

Woah.....Stop right there.
Please tell us when you received this charism to see into people's hearts and judge them?
Same goes to you for an earlier post of mine...it's a two way street.
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« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2006, 06:39:39 PM »

Same goes to you for an earlier post of mine...it's a two way street.
Oh, you mean that time I told you off for publically passing judgement on the suffering Church of Christ and calling it to "repentance" for it's "failures"?
Yeah, sorry about that.......
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« Reply #50 on: July 13, 2006, 07:40:09 PM »

Oh, you mean that time I told you off for publically passing judgement on the suffering Church of Christ and calling it to "repentance" for it's "failures"?
Yeah, sorry about that.......
Others have done the same with Moscow...no one is above criticism save Christ.
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« Reply #51 on: July 13, 2006, 08:05:48 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9493.msg127782#msg127782 date=1152819148]
ÂÂ  

I think you'll find that most scholarly accounts of the population exchange do document that many Muslims were expelled from Greece.ÂÂ  The presence of intact communities in Thrace doesn't mean that some Muslims weren't expelled.ÂÂ  Again I'm not stating that the two were equal in nature, only that it wasn't as black and white as some wish to describe it here.


[/quote]

Define "most"...and give an author & publisher on the book you did quote. If you want to be a scholar...
YOU are the one forcing extremes
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« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2006, 01:04:03 AM »

One of the big problems here is that military actions on the part of any orthodox nations is seen as a terrorist threat to Europe, the Balkans, the Middle East. Whenever it's western powers (including Isreal) firing off their guns and bombs, for some reason, they can't be touched and their venerable aspirations are respected. It's either "those horrible Serbian Balkan buchers" or those crazy fanatical Greeks who are upset that like half their land was "settled by their Turkish neighbours" (-more like stolen by Mongolian invaders).

The other problem I think, is that orthodoxy is probably much less known than something such as Hinduism or Bhuddism which attracts many people. Thus, orthodoxy's leaders are treated as symbolic relics of the past (even though most orthodox people probably do respect and look up to them) and treated with respect only if they go along with the western powers' role of pupetteer and not step on their toes.

Back to the original point, if we're not allowed to protect ourselves physically like we've been doing for centuries (ie. Constantinople's walls, monasteries' high protective walls and gates, orthodox emperors, kings, armies, etc...) then the chances of our growth and or survival drastically decrease.

I wonder how different the situatiom would be if CNN actually showed the truth about Kosovo...instead of ONLY airing 'Srebrenica' couple months a year and if documentaries existed on the extermination of Armenians and Greeks from Asia Minor rather than ONLY airing 'Holocaust' on the history chanelle.
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« Reply #53 on: July 14, 2006, 01:32:09 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9493.msg127804#msg127804 date=1152835548]
Define "most"...and give an author & publisher on the book you did quote. If you want to be a scholar...
YOU are the one forcing extremes
[/quote]

I don't see a whole lot of people being that scholarly.  Just because it is hearsay doesn't mean it's false.  We're not in court.
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« Reply #54 on: July 14, 2006, 01:36:19 AM »

The population exchanges between Greece and Turkey took place between 1923-1924 under the conditions of lozan treaty (a defeat treaty from Greece which its conditions where imposed by kemal Ataturk )according to this treaty the two states agree to exchange their population at the base of their religious faith.According to that treaty Turkey had to protect the Greek orthodox population in Constantinople and in two small islands in the enter of Dardanelles (Imvros and Tenedos ) for this two small islands especially the treaty was stipulate a special regime of self-governance with local athorities and even local police force.EP and its institutions were also protecting under the conditions of the treaty. Turkey from the very begining violate almost all the conditions of the treaty.On the the other had Greece took the responsibility to Protect the muslim minorities of western thrace ( i use the term of the treaty since the muslims of western thrace do not have the same national origin ,a vast number of them for instance are gipses).The number of the Cristians in turkey  were triple  or more of those muslims in thace.
Today the Cristian minority in turkey has almost vanished when the muslim population in Greece has doubled the Greek muslims are probably the richest muslims in the word they have delegates in the Greek palrement and in general they have all the rights that a citizen must have in a secular Democratic western state.
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« Reply #55 on: July 14, 2006, 10:10:01 AM »

I don't see a whole lot of people being that scholarly.  Just because it is hearsay doesn't mean it's false.  We're not in court.

In which case I myself can merely say "I've heard..." and that's acceptable?
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« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2006, 07:37:39 AM »

I was watching a documentary on constantinopoli the city constantine the great built for Christ because Christ told him to? please correct if I'm wrong or maybe explain in greater detail.

also i heard supernatural events started taking place in Agia sofia and they were forced to stop it being a mosque is this true ?
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« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2006, 07:40:57 AM »

I was watching a documentary on constantinopoli the city constantine the great built for Christ because Christ told him to? please correct if I'm wrong or maybe explain in greater detail. 

I'm not sure about this one.  I believe it is in the story-telling of the foundation of the city, that Christ communicated with St. Constantine about the building of the city, but in reality I wouldn't consider it the most important of points to be expending my energy on (researching it, that is).

also i heard supernatural events started taking place in Agia sofia and they were forced to stop it being a mosque is this true ?

I haven't heard the stories of "supernatural" events stopping Agia Sophia's use as a mosque; I believe the transformation of the Great Church from Mosque to Museum was really a product of the drive to end the dominance of Islam in Turkey by the "young Turks" (the military-backed Ataturk and his followers).
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« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2006, 08:13:36 AM »

I haven't heard the stories of "supernatural" events stopping Agia Sophia's use as a mosque; I believe the transformation of the Great Church from Mosque to Museum was really a product of the drive to end the dominance of Islam in Turkey by the "young Turks" (the military-backed Ataturk and his followers).

They failed. The persecution of the Church has had the exact opposite effect as far as Islam in Turkey goes.
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« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2006, 03:21:16 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9493.msg129592#msg129592 date=1154088816]
They failed. The persecution of the Church has had the exact opposite effect as far as Islam in Turkey goes.
[/quote]

Well, I would say that Islam is less powerful now in Turkey than it was under the Sultan.  The state has done what it could to end the dominance of Islam on the political scene (which is why you have the religious extremists who are trying to undermine the progress of the secularist government); but, of course, socially the radical Islamists are gaining sway.
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« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2006, 03:28:51 PM »

I was watching a "documentary" about Istanbul and the general area and they were talking about how the muslims built all these beautiful mosques in the city - and as they said this statement they showed a shot of Hagia Sophia!ÂÂ  Shocked
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« Reply #61 on: July 28, 2006, 03:41:32 PM »

I was watching a "documentary" about Istanbul and the general area and they were talking about how the muslims built all these beautiful mosques in the city - and as they said this statement they showed a shot a Hagia Sophia!  Shocked

The did put the minarets up, and they did significantly gut the original structure and adapt it to their needs, so saying that the Muslim's "built" Hagia Sophia as it is now is not necessarily untruthful.
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« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2006, 04:06:06 PM »

The did put the minarets up, and they did significantly gut the original structure and adapt it to their needs, so saying that the Muslim's "built" Hagia Sophia as it is now is not necessarily untruthful.

Yes, they erected those monstrosities. But as to how much gutting they did, I wonder. It took me about three minutes with Adobe PhotoShop to erase the few muslim shields hung from the upper walls from some photos. Removal of altar, sure. And what else?
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« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2006, 04:08:30 PM »

The did put the minarets up, and they did significantly gut the original structure and adapt it to their needs, so saying that the Muslim's "built" Hagia Sophia as it is now is not necessarily untruthful.

I don't know how much structure "gutting" they could have done; all they took down was the icon screen and the altar (besides chiseling off the crosses and plastering icons).  Otherwise, the inside was very open and unobstructed to begin with.  Now, they added lighting, the Sultan's box, their own pulpit, and their Arabic script.  They've also added supports to keep the building from tumbling down.  But all this work still doesn't justify a claim of having "built" Agia Sophia, whether the claim is explicit or implicit in the use of the photo during that segment.
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« Reply #64 on: July 29, 2006, 12:30:26 AM »

About Agia Sophia, I know some people on here think that trying/wanting to get it back is stupid, useless, etc but I don't care and I'm gonna say it anyway...what would it take from orthodox ppl (who care) to get it back? I know there was someone trying to collect signatures to present it to the EU to make it a stipulation for Turkey to give Agia Sophia back before they can join the E- this and the recognition of their Greco-Armenian/Kurd genocide.
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« Reply #65 on: July 29, 2006, 12:37:00 AM »

I don't know if the people that "think that trying/wanting to get it back is stupid, useless, etc" really think that trying to get Agia Sophia back is a bad idea; I bet you that most of the objection is that many people are willing to expend more energy and enthusiasm on this topic than on more pertinent ones - like turning one's life around, almsgiving, helping the poor in our local communities, mission, right Christian praxis in the household, etc.

All the above is speculation - I personally would like to see the restoration of the Great Church; but before that can/should happen, I think we need to make ourselves the Royal Priesthood and Holy Nation that God wants us to be.
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« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2006, 12:49:52 AM »

I don't know if the people that "think that trying/wanting to get it back is stupid, useless, etc" really think that trying to get Agia Sophia back is a bad idea; I bet you that most of the objection is that many people are willing to expend more energy and enthusiasm on this topic than on more pertinent ones - like turning one's life around, almsgiving, helping the poor in our local communities, mission, right Christian praxis in the household, etc.

All the above is speculation - I personally would like to see the restoration of the Great Church; but before that can/should happen, I think we need to make ourselves the Royal Priesthood and Holy Nation that God wants us to be.

Well put.
Rather than taking back Agia Sophia ourselves for reasons of "honour", it would be better if Christ gave Agia Sophia back to us because He thought we actually needed it to continue His work and mission in the world.
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« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2006, 12:55:12 AM »

Well, I think that the only way to actually get Hagia Sophia back is to liberate/conquer the city. If someone has a viable plan to accomplish that I'm all ears, but I seriously doubt that anyone here has any ideas about how to practically achieve that, for all my studies in military history, tactics, strategy, and the operational art, I have no idea of how to pull that off. Thus, the problem with discussion on the matter is, generally speaking, it's nothing more than fantasy.
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« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2006, 01:03:47 AM »

Well, I think that the only way to actually get Hagia Sophia back is to liberate/conquer the city.
Now, why doesn't that surprise me? Wink

This is the way of the world- but does that make it the Way into which we were called?
"What's one more war?"- so the world says....
"What's one more life destroyed?"- so Pontius Pilate said....

Personally, if one human being is killed order that Agia Sophia should be ours, I would consider it desecrated and on par with an unholy pagan site where human sacrifices were offered; and I would never set foot in it.
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« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2006, 01:25:16 AM »

I respect such a noble sentiment, I genuinely do. But much blood has been spilt for that city by many people with many interests. By the blood of the Imperial Soldiers and their enemies the city was defended for a thousand years. In a way, to refuse to shed blood, yours or others, for such a noble cause as the liberation of the city seems to me to be a mockery and desecration of the memory and sacrifice of the thousands or millions who died in defence of the City. Surely if a million people gave their life in the defence of your or my country we would not regard the cause of its defence unworthy or unreasonable if a few thousand more must join their ranks to achieve it. Life is a great in precious gift, but there are a few causes that are worth more, liberty for one, whether the liberation of the City can be listed amongst these causes probably varies from person to person, but I would not say that the concept that some causes are more valuable than life is too far from the truth.
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« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2006, 01:35:02 AM »

I would happily shed my own blood to return The City and Agia Sophia to the Church, GiC, as did many of her holy defenders.
But I will not kill other human beings for the sake of some bricks, stones and mortar.
Let them have The City- all we need is Christ and our souls. And it is this fact alone which makes Orthodox Christianity truly great.
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« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2006, 01:56:07 AM »

I would happily shed my own blood to return The City and Agia Sophia to the Church, GiC, as did many of her holy defenders.
But I will not kill other human beings for the sake of some bricks, stones and mortar.
Let them have The City- all we need is Christ and our souls. And it is this fact alone which makes Orthodox Christianity truly great.

Well, as I said before your posistion is most certainly admirable; but I dont know that I could ever get used to the idea of being shot at and not shooting back, but then again I'm Scots-Irish, we're a people who tended to fight just for the hell of it and I can't say that, in this regard, my cultural upbringing varied much from my ancestors for thousands of years before me...lol.

I guess you can bring a barbarian to the Church but you can't civilize him Grin
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« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2006, 01:59:21 AM »

I guess you can bring a barbarian to the Church but you can't civilize him Grin
And we wouldn't have you any other way. Cheesy

In the Holy Monastery of Iveron on the Holy Mountain, near it's gate is the Chapel which houses the miraculous "Panagia Portaitissa" Icon. On the wall behind the Icon of the Theotokos Portaitissa is the fresco Icon of "Agios Barbaros" ("St. Barbarian"). He was the pirate who stabbed the Icon of the Theotokos Portaitissa in the neck, from which blood flowed which is visible to this day. On seeing the miracle, his remorse led him to enter the monastery where he took the name "Barbarian" and attained sanctity, and is now glorified as a Saint.
So you see, even Barbarians can be saved. Wink
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« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2006, 07:45:41 PM »

I guess you can bring a barbarian to the Church but you can't civilize him Grin

And they surely test our resolve to forgive them even 70x7 times.

http://www.hellenicgenocide.org

http://www.greece.org/genocide/quotes

Not so ancient history - in my lifetime, in fact.

(I have more graphic material, but this is a family site)
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« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2006, 08:06:53 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9493.msg129767#msg129767 date=1154216741]
And they surely test our resolve to forgive them even 70x7 times.

http://www.hellenicgenocide.org

http://www.greece.org/genocide/quotes

Not so ancient history - in my lifetime, in fact.

(I have more graphic material, but this is a family site)
[/quote]

Thanks for posting the links, distressing as they are.
This page: http://www.greece.org/genocide/quotes/q-he-smyrna-burn-14d-ship-buildings.html has the same copy of the photograph of the destruction of Smyrna that my Aunt Helen still has from the time they fled the city which I was telling you about.
I found it strangely comforting to find it posted on the Internet- possibly because it gives me a sense that at least someone in the world may witness what happened. I'm visiting Aunt Helen on Tuesday, so I'll take the laptop along and show her how the photograph she has kept all these years which held her personal pain is now visible for all the world to see. It may give her some comfort as well.
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« Reply #75 on: July 30, 2006, 05:58:48 AM »

Indeed, ozgeorge, I thought of you and her when I previewed the links before posting. Many did suffer for the Church, and many still do. The Turks, today's Turks, cannot continue to deny their own sordid history, especially when their attitudes today haven't really changed.

The soviets tried to revise history as well. Didn't work.


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« Reply #76 on: July 30, 2006, 08:01:30 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9493.msg129804#msg129804 date=1154253528]
The Turks, today's Turks, cannot continue to deny their own sordid history, especially when their attitudes today haven't really changed.[/quote]

Yes they can, and in fact, under Turkey's "Article 301" it is illegal not to deny their sordid past. Even today as I write this, a Turkish born Professor of the University of Arizona is waiting to stand trail under "Article 301" for daring to mention the Armenian Genocide in a book (see this report from today's news).
Article 301 is being used by the Turkish Nationalists to prevent Turkey from entering the EU and to distance Turkey from the West. It has also been used to further oppress the Church in Turkey by silencing any protest.

Remember what Hitler said to encourage his commanding officers a week before the invaion of Poland? After instructing them to kill all Poles, men women and children, he concluded by assuring them: "Who remembers the extermination of the Armenians today?".......unfortunately, he was right.......

So combine Article 301 with the West "turning a blind eye" to the extermination of the Church in Turkey, and you have the perfect recipe for a complete genocide and the utter destruction of the Church of Constantinople.....which will also be forgotten by the rest of the world in some dust-covered history book which no one will read for decades......

But the Church's true City -the Heavenly Jerusalem- no one can take from Her!
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« Reply #77 on: July 30, 2006, 11:23:34 AM »

The history revisors did not count on the Internet  Smiley
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« Reply #78 on: July 30, 2006, 01:29:22 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9493.msg129811#msg129811 date=1154273014]
The history revisors did not count on the InternetÂÂ  Smiley
[/quote]

What good is the internet if companies such as Google, Microsoft, and Yahoo agree to censor it by denying access to sites that governments decide their citizens shoud not have access to. And all for money.

Companies that do are co-conspirators in denying freedom to people. The profits from these agreements are tainted.
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« Reply #79 on: July 30, 2006, 01:49:56 PM »

Yes they can, and in fact, under Turkey's "Article 301" it is illegal not to deny their sordid past. Even today as I write this, a Turkish born Professor of the University of Arizona is waiting to stand trail under "Article 301" for daring to mention the Armenian Genocide in a book (see this report from today's news).
Article 301 is being used by the Turkish Nationalists to prevent Turkey from entering the EU and to distance Turkey from the West. It has also been used to further oppress the Church in Turkey by silencing any protest.

Remember what Hitler said to encourage his commanding officers a week before the invaion of Poland? After instructing them to kill all Poles, men women and children, he concluded by assuring them: "Who remembers the extermination of the Armenians today?".......unfortunately, he was right.......

So combine Article 301 with the West "turning a blind eye" to the extermination of the Church in Turkey, and you have the perfect recipe for a complete genocide and the utter destruction of the Church of Constantinople.....which will also be forgotten by the rest of the world in some dust-covered history book which no one will read for decades......

But the Church's true City -the Heavenly Jerusalem- no one can take from Her!

Amen, amen, amen.  Saw it firsthand in Turkey - the ultra-nationalists continue the evils of their fathers by failing to recognize the deaths of the innocent.
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« Reply #80 on: July 30, 2006, 02:29:24 PM »

Yes they can, and in fact, under Turkey's "Article 301" it is illegal not to deny their sordid past. Even today as I write this, a Turkish born Professor of the University of Arizona is waiting to stand trail under "Article 301" for daring to mention the Armenian Genocide in a book (see this report from today's news).
Article 301 is being used by the Turkish Nationalists to prevent Turkey from entering the EU and to distance Turkey from the West. It has also been used to further oppress the Church in Turkey by silencing any protest.

Remember what Hitler said to encourage his commanding officers a week before the invaion of Poland? After instructing them to kill all Poles, men women and children, he concluded by assuring them: "Who remembers the extermination of the Armenians today?".......unfortunately, he was right.......

So combine Article 301 with the West "turning a blind eye" to the extermination of the Church in Turkey, and you have the perfect recipe for a complete genocide and the utter destruction of the Church of Constantinople.....which will also be forgotten by the rest of the world in some dust-covered history book which no one will read for decades......

Are you sure you wouldn't like to see a few armoured columns cutting their way through turkey paying back the above mentioned debts with interest?
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« Reply #81 on: July 30, 2006, 06:50:52 PM »

Are you sure you wouldn't like to see a few armoured columns cutting their way through turkey paying back the above mentioned debts with interest?
Cheesy
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It would be better that we continue to be Christians.
The only One who has any right to judge and pay recompense to the Turks is the One Who also has the power to reward the millions of Christian Martyrs who died at the hands of the Turks. If you can't reward the Martyrs, don't punish the Turks.
It is the Islamists who seek their own recompense on Earth for their "martyrs". Let's show them how Christians behave instead. Wink
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« Reply #82 on: July 30, 2006, 07:36:24 PM »

From "The Lion in Winter"
Queen Eleanor Lectures her Sons on World Peace
(mp3 format)
 

Prince Richard:
A knife! He's got a knife!

Eleanor of Aquitaine:
Of course he has a knife! He's always has a knife. We all have knives!
It's 1183 and we're barbarians. How clear we make it!
Oh, my piglets, we are the origins of war -
not history's forces, nor the times, nor justice, nor the lack of it, nor causes, nor religions, nor ideas, nor kinds of government, nor any other thing.
        We are the killers.
        We breed wars.
        We carry it like syphilis inside. Dead bodies rot in field and stream because the living ones are rotten.
        For the love of God can't we love one another just a little?
        That's how peace begins.
        We have so much to love each other for.
        We have such possibilities, my children.
        We could change the world.

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« Reply #83 on: July 30, 2006, 08:02:20 PM »

Cheesy
Thanks, but no thanks my barbarian friend!ÂÂ  Wink

Well, thought I'd ask...just trying to be civil, polite, and all that stuff Wink
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« Reply #84 on: July 31, 2006, 01:56:32 PM »

Yes they can, and in fact, under Turkey's "Article 301" it is illegal not to deny their sordid past. Even today as I write this, a Turkish born Professor of the University of Arizona is waiting to stand trail under "Article 301" for daring to mention the Armenian Genocide in a book (see this report from today's news).

Yes, just like the Taliban (for our Turcophils here)

Quote
Article 301 is being used by the Turkish Nationalists to prevent Turkey from entering the EU and to distance Turkey from the West. It has also been used to further oppress the Church in Turkey by silencing any protest.

Remember what Hitler said to encourage his commanding officers a week before the invaion of Poland? After instructing them to kill all Poles, men women and children, he concluded by assuring them: "Who remembers the extermination of the Armenians today?".......unfortunately, he was right.......

So combine Article 301 with the West "turning a blind eye" to the extermination of the Church in Turkey, and you have the perfect recipe for a complete genocide and the utter destruction of the Church of Constantinople.....which will also be forgotten by the rest of the world in some dust-covered history book which no one will read for decades......



An accurate description.

Quote
But the Church's true City -the Heavenly Jerusalem- no one can take from Her!

Maybe the Turks will figure that out...naw...
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« Reply #85 on: August 01, 2006, 11:59:30 AM »

The funny thing is that these actions against the Greeks, Armenians, and Kurds have been done by the "westernized" and "secularized" government that Attaturk dreamed of.  This secularized government, run by the military, also happens to be quite racist; at least the Ottomans classed us by religion

That is because the Power in the Governance infrastructure in Turkey is centered with the military, the beaureucratic establishment of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs & the Mafia-like 'deep state' (derim dövlet) 
http://www.justacitizen.org/articles_documents/Op-ed-The%20SecretsBehindStateSecrets.htm

This derim dövlet manipulates Turkey since the '50s. When the cold war started, NATO founded a network of secret organizations in W.Europe. These secret organizations, under the code name 'Stay Behind', had the mission to fight the reds, if & when these countries would have been confronted with the specter of a military occupation by the communists. In Italy, Greece & Turkey, these organizations, 'infiltrated' into the administation & shaped the country's policy. In Italy, this infamous organization was the 'Gladio', in Greece the 'Fleece' & in Turkey the 'Red Fleece'. Red Fleece, is directly responsible for 3 coups d'etat in Turkey (1967, 1971, 1980), for the actions against the Greeks of Constantinople in '55 (the 'Gestapo of Adnan Menderes' according to PM Inonu), and naturally, last but not least, the invasion of Cyprus     
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« Reply #86 on: August 01, 2006, 03:58:15 PM »

Apostolos,

Interesting article.  Thank you for the insight!
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