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Author Topic: Married clergy  (Read 3044 times) Average Rating: 0
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Dismus
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« on: August 18, 2006, 09:20:28 PM »

I saw a rather strange blog today and do not know if the authour of the blog was accurate or not and I did not know if he was even RCC or not. But, he mentioned a few things I have never heard of before:

Council of Elvira in Spain- 306

St. Ambrose - 340- 397 (supposedly said- no citation given) "The miniserial office must be kept pure and unspoiled and must not be defiled by coitus"

Pope Benedict VIII in 1018 - Elvira decree- forbidding decendants of Priests to enherit property

Is this the truth? If so, was this a cause of the rift?
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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2006, 01:48:28 AM »

The Catholics were more strict when it came to clerical celibacy, at least officially (though behind the scenes there was usually a lot of naughty stuff going on). There is a story about the Spanish delegates trying to push clerical celibacy at the First Ecumenical Council in 325, when the monk Paphnutius supposedly thwarted their efforts, though some consider that story untrue. Anyway, that issue was not the cause of any of the schisms, as far as I am aware, though the East and West did recognize that there was a difference, and did argue about it (e.g., when Catholic priests missionized the Bulgarians in the 9th century, they used their celibacy as one evidence [among others] that they were morally superior to the married clergy of Constantinople, though obviously the eastern clergy disagreed).
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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2006, 01:16:58 PM »

Following the collapse of the Roman Empire in the West, there were few centralized governments.  Local nobility would find themselves running things and then would also take it upon themselves to minister to the still unconverted in the lands of their dominion and thus were ordained priests and bishops.  However, celibacy was not required of them and they then passed on their land, which included both temporal and sacred areas, to their heirs.  The problem was that such men could not be controlled by the growing papacy in the West so, eventually, when the papacy became powerful enough and had the backing of armies (like from Carolingian France) they enforced celibacy and forced the transfer of those lands to church control and also to the kings who were supplying the muscle behind it.  But, as far as I think I know, celibacy was not imposed officially until the Fourth Lateran Council.  I'll have to check my books on that one.

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« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2006, 03:12:03 PM »

On the other hand, aren't/weren't Uniate priests allowed be married?
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2006, 08:41:03 PM »

On the other hand, aren't/weren't Uniate priests allowed be married?

When you use the word Uniate is that word meant to mean RCC? Like a rite in the RCC?
I just saw a website reccomendation on another thread (Liturgy section) that might be called something.... I'm not sure what, but in answer to your question, there are married priests in the RCC. We all know that one.

It still does not prove to be the BEST thing. I know what is next- Peter!

Same old song and dance. Heard it before.

Married clergy is not a big issue for me unless it is going to be the norm and not the exception for the exceptional.
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2006, 08:23:09 AM »

Apparently our Dismus has yet to meet her first presvytera/matushka and see the active role she plays in her husband's ministry and the life of the parish.
I very much like my Greek priest/monk, but there is a distinct difference in the 'feel' of parish life from our Carpartho-Russian parish with its married priest.
Experiences to come, maybe.
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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2006, 12:30:03 PM »

When you use the word Uniate is that word meant to mean RCC? Like a rite in the RCC?
I just saw a website reccomendation on another thread (Liturgy section) that might be called something.... I'm not sure what, but in answer to your question, there are married priests in the RCC. We all know that one.

It still does not prove to be the BEST thing. I know what is next- Peter!

Same old song and dance. Heard it before.

Married clergy is not a big issue for me unless it is going to be the norm and not the exception for the exceptional.

Arent most married priest ones whom have come from Protestant sects?  Many Anglican, Lutheran, and Episcopal married priests have converted and the RCC have accepted them into the priesthood.   As far as I know Eastern Catholic priests  in the US are still required to be celibate and unmarried.

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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2006, 12:36:46 PM »

Arent most married priest ones whom have come from Protestant sects?  Many Anglican, Lutheran, and Episcopal married priests have converted and the RCC have accepted them into the priesthood.   As far as I know Eastern Catholic priests  in the US are still required to be celibate and unmarried.



You may be right, I really don't know. It is not an issue for me though since I would not go to an Eastern Rite RCC anyway. I don't see the point of it. To me it is just not right somehow.
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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2006, 01:30:17 PM »

Well, let's suppose that Rome says to some group: "Oh yes, come into communion with us and we will allow your priests to marry," and the group agrees to enter into communion and to place themselves under Rome. What then happens when Rome refuses to let their priests marry, going back on their agreement? Is it an issue for you that your Church has acted in such a way? What was it's motive for acting in that way (greed, power-seeking, something else?), and if they are not now willing to abide by their word, then why don't they break off the communion?
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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2006, 01:42:33 PM »

Well, let's suppose that Rome says to some group: "Oh yes, come into communion with us and we will allow your priests to marry," and the group agrees to enter into communion and to place themselves under Rome. What then happens when Rome refuses to let their priests marry, going back on their agreement? Is it an issue for you that your Church has acted in such a way? What was it's motive for acting in that way (greed, power-seeking, something else?), and if they are not now willing to abide by their word, then why don't they break off the communion?

With one important exception to your statement:  "Oh yes, come into communion with us and we will allow your priests to marry,"

Priests have to be married prior their ordination.  Once you are a priest you cannot marry.
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2006, 01:45:03 PM »

Well, let's suppose that Rome says to some group: "Oh yes, come into communion with us and we will allow your priests to marry," and the group agrees to enter into communion and to place themselves under Rome. What then happens when Rome refuses to let their priests marry, going back on their agreement? Is it an issue for you that your Church has acted in such a way? What was it's motive for acting in that way (greed, power-seeking, something else?), and if they are not now willing to abide by their word, then why don't they break off the communion?

In nomine Ieus I offer you peace Asteriktos,

Please note that there is only 'one' Rite in the Catholic Church which requires a vow of Celibacy as a Discipline of the Priesthood, the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church. No othe Rite has, as a requirement of ordination, a Vow of Celibacy.

If one enters into the Roman Rite and thus under the Canon Laws, which are binding to that Rite, then one would find it binding the Disciplines of that Rite if one wished to enter into the Priesthood. Now the the Eastern Canon Law has been interpreted into the larger Catholic Church the fears of Latinization of yesterdays are gone in my humble opinion.

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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2006, 02:16:58 PM »

The Malabar Church also has a mandatory celibacy requirement, adopted in imitation of the Roman Church.  The Ruthenian particular Church in America also has such a requirement.

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« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2006, 02:25:40 PM »

Just to clarify, celibacy is practised by both East and West, by Orthodox and by Catholics alike.

"Clergy" includes the 3 major orders: episcopate, presbyterate, and diaconate.

East and West have celibate episcopate.

Both traditions have married and unmarried diaconate.

On the presbyterate, East and West have celibate monastics and those belonging to religious orders, if any. (Some Eastern Catholic Churches have religious orders.)

However, it is only on the diocesan priests (parish priests) that we differ. Latin Rite (Roman) Catholics follow the discipline of celibacy for all priests (monastics, religious, and diocesan), with exceptions through pastoral provisions governing married Anglican/Episcopalian clergy converts and by special dispensation for converts of other Protestant married clergy.

In like manner, you Orthodox have the discipline of celibacy for monastics (and religious, if any)  but allow optional celibacy for diocesan priests, i.e., they are either married or unmarried. Although majority of Orthodox diocesan priests are married, I believe.

As to the Eastern Rite Catholics (not Eastern Rite RCCs as the RCC is herself a Rite within the Catholic Communion), they are free to follow their Eastern tradition by having married diocesan priests.

However, some Eastern Catholic Churches prefer to ordain the unmarried. The "imposition" of celibacy on the Eastern Catholic Churches in the U.S. has long been rescinded.

It has been documented that currently there are more Latin Rite (Roman) married priests (because of Anglican/Episcopalian and other Protestant converts) than Eastern Catholic married priests in the U.S.

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« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2006, 07:42:18 PM »

Also in addition to the Ruthenian Church many Ukraninans priests have been unable to marry in North America, although, I hear that this is changing. 
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« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2006, 01:42:04 AM »

Though married American eastern Catholic priests are certainly rare, especially in the Ruthenian Church, the situation is hopefully (albeit slowly) changing.  On February 12, 2005, Fr. Joseph Marquis became the first married priest ordained in the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church since 1929.  More info can be found here:  http://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002516;p=1

Sorry, I don't know how to hyperlink!  Embarrassed

God bless,

Chris
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« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2006, 11:38:33 AM »

It is curious that some clergy in the Roman Catholic Church may be married but others may not. The inconsistency is striking.
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« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2006, 06:26:00 PM »

Arent most married priest ones whom have come from Protestant sects?  Many Anglican, Lutheran, and Episcopal married priests have converted and the RCC have accepted them into the priesthood.   As far as I know Eastern Catholic priests  in the US are still required to be celibate and unmarried.



Interesting:  Married ministers from Protestant religions being given precidence over Byzantine rite priests in the U.S.
Bazaar would be a better term.
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« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2006, 06:43:32 PM »

I have never quite understood why this is such a big issue. The Church asks some priest to be celebate and not others. What is the problem?
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« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2006, 08:45:57 AM »

I have never quite understood why this is such a big issue. The Church asks some priest to be celebate and not others. What is the problem?
Double standards are usually problematic. Why is there a double standard?
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« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2006, 09:56:43 AM »

Quote
I have never quite understood why this is such a big issue. The Church asks some priest to be celebate and not others. What is the problem?

Because the Latin Church has a rather unfortunate history of

A.   Saying celibacy is superior.
B.   Forcing celibacy on churches where it isn’t their tradition.

See this for an example of A:

http://crisismagazine.com/october2006/ryland.htm

and read the history of the Greek Catholics in the United States for the story of B.

I believe the prohibitions or ordaining married men among the various Eastern Catholics groups in the United States and Canada have been rescinded, though with the stipulation that such ordinations are done “discreetly”.  Most of the opposition to married clergy I believe is now found within the Eastern Catholic groups themselves, and particularly among the existing clergy.  I have been told by people in the Ruthenian Church that this is particularly true in their case.
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« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2006, 06:44:13 PM »

I have never quite understood why this is such a big issue. The Church asks some priest to be celebate and not others. What is the problem?

I was told be another RC on another similar thread that it was Canon Law that all priests be celibate. Now you are saying its not a big deal?

What gives?
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« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2006, 07:06:24 PM »

I was told be another RC on another similar thread that it was Canon Law that all priests be celibate. Now you are saying its not a big deal?

What gives?
Well that other Catholic was simply wrong.
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« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2006, 07:19:45 PM »

Most of the opposition to married clergy I believe is now found within the Eastern Catholic groups themselves, and particularly among the existing clergy.  I have been told by people in the Ruthenian Church that this is particularly true in their case.


Unfortunately, you're correct.  Though the days of Cum Data Fuerit and the like are long gone (as manifested by such counter-examples as Lumen Gentium and Orientale Lumen), many within our Churches still cling to latinizations.  Rome has made its recent support for the married priesthood had for other eastern practices clear enough; the will to embrace our Orthodox heritage must now come from within, from the people themselves.  It is a slow process, but there are certainly hopeful indications (the proposed revision of the Ruthenian liturgy notwithstanding).

God bless,

Chris
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