Author Topic: learning Church Slavonic  (Read 1275 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline FinnJames

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 455
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of Finland
learning Church Slavonic
« on: February 02, 2016, 09:30:14 AM »
Does anyone have any suggestions for learning to understand and sing Church Slavonic? I have a copy of Archbishop Alypy's Grammar of the Church Slavonic Language, but it assumes much more knowledge than I have and isn't really a textbook/primer. Unfortunately, my Russian is minimal at best, and I know no other Slavic languages so can't fall back on them as a crutch.

Offline Orest

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2016, 09:49:16 AM »
Does anyone have any suggestions for learning to understand and sing Church Slavonic? I have a copy of Archbishop Alypy's Grammar of the Church Slavonic Language, but it assumes much more knowledge than I have and isn't really a textbook/primer. Unfortunately, my Russian is minimal at best, and I know no other Slavic languages so can't fall back on them as a crutch.
When I studied Old Church Slavonic at university the prerequisite was two years of another Slavic languages.  However, in your case you just need to be able to read and sing it.  Do you know the  Russian Cyrillic  Alphabet?    If you do then that alone is helpful.  I remember that there is a small dictionary published by Holy Trinity ROCOR Monastery that has Church-Slavonic -English translation of the vocabulary you need for reading the Bible and the liturgy.  Also their short grammar with exercises is quite good.

Offline FinnJames

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 455
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of Finland
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2016, 01:18:42 PM »
Thanks, Orest. It would be good to know what the words we're singing mean, so the dictionary sounds like just the right tool. I'll try to get a copy.

Offline Alpo

  • Lying Chalcedonian Liar
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,380
  • Netodoxy - Casting the first stone since 33 AD
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2016, 02:25:20 PM »
You might be interested in this:

http://www.halla-aho.com/ocs/

It's an online manual for OCS downloadable for free. Sorry US folks, Finnish skills required.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Orest

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2016, 03:01:03 PM »
I don't know or read Finnish but page 10 is taken from the Holy Trinity ROCOR Monastery publication.  Also the format of the booklet is similar with examples from Scripture in Church Slavonic. 
What is missing is the section on abbreviations for key words and examples from common prayers in the liturgy.

Offline Orest

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2016, 03:05:22 PM »
There is this for free:
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/ocsol-TC-R.html
What I don't like about it is that the Church Slavonic alphabet is not used for the examples.  You need to get used to the alphabet as soon as possible.  Also no dictionary.

Offline Alpo

  • Lying Chalcedonian Liar
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,380
  • Netodoxy - Casting the first stone since 33 AD
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2016, 03:08:01 PM »
The author has doctorate-level grade on Slavistics. I don't think he had any need for plagiating anyone in order to write a short manual on OCS.  :P
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 03:08:43 PM by Alpo »
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Orest

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2016, 03:14:43 PM »
The author has doctorate-level grade on Slavistics. I don't think he had any need for plagiating anyone in order to write a short manual on OCS.  :P
I was not suggesting that he plagiarized content merely that the font for the Church Slavonic Alphabet is the same one as in the ROCOR publication and laid out (format) on the page in the same manner.  On the whole the format of the booklet is the same with examples taken from scripture. 
I found an online dictionary for you:
http://ksana-k.narod.ru/b-small/gardiner_1984.pdf
Look under the section titled Glossary.  This section included most of the words you will need for scripture and liturgy.

Offline Alpo

  • Lying Chalcedonian Liar
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,380
  • Netodoxy - Casting the first stone since 33 AD
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2016, 03:21:35 PM »
Fair enough.

Just googled the guy's dissertation out of curiosity. Oddly enough, it's about OCS too. A bit random considering that he's working as a Member of the European Parliament at the monent.

http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/hum/slavi/vk/halla-aho/
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline FinnJames

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 455
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of Finland
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2016, 02:51:18 AM »
Thanks, everyone, for all the information.

According to his website, Jussi Halla-aho was a researcher and instructor (Fi. tuntiopettaja) of Old Church Slavonic in the department of Slavic and Baltic Languages at the University of Helsinki from 2000 to 2006.

According to encyclopedia articles, the Church Slavonic used in services today is a later development from Old Church Slavonic. Whether this should be understood as implying as big a difference as that between, say, the English of Chaucer and that of Tolkien or as small as that between the language of Dickens and that of J.K. Rowling, I can't say since I don't know either form of Slavonic.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Prime Minister of Zimbabwe
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,455
  • Holy Prophet and God-seer Moses
    • Facebook - A Bíblia Ilustrada
  • Faith: Church of Poland
  • Jurisdiction: but my heart belongs to Rio de Janeiro
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2016, 11:57:30 PM »
Does anyone any info on how Church Slavonic is pronounced in Poland? It can be in Polish, as long as it clear, I'll try to read it through Google Translate.

I'm part of the Church of Poland, but we don't have such a cultural link. I'm mostly curious because I love the way the Polish language look/sounds, and also because it's the only living major Slavic language that preserves phonemic nasal vowels, a feature originally present at Old Slavonic.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 12:03:26 AM by RaphaCam »
Bendito seja o Reino do Pai, do Filho e do Espírito Santo!

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,530
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: POC, but my heart belongs to Antioch
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2016, 12:33:02 PM »
Does anyone any info on how Church Slavonic is pronounced in Poland? It can be in Polish, as long as it clear, I'll try to read it through Google Translate.

I'm part of the Church of Poland, but we don't have such a cultural link. I'm mostly curious because I love the way the Polish language look/sounds, and also because it's the only living major Slavic language that preserves phonemic nasal vowels, a feature originally present at Old Slavonic.

There are two ways: Galician (in some Southern-Eastern parts of the country plus Lemkos in the South and those ones discplaced to the West parts of the country) and synodal (everywhere else). However, it's not exactly synodal like in Russia; we carry more about accents, don't change "o" to "a", it's also not so soft as in Russian pronunciation. Ah, and "г" it's between "g" and "h" (not like Russian, that say "g").

Anyway, there are some exceptions reading at Church like me ;) I read in Serbian pronunciation (except "г" - I follow local practice in this case).
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Offline RaphaCam

  • Prime Minister of Zimbabwe
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,455
  • Holy Prophet and God-seer Moses
    • Facebook - A Bíblia Ilustrada
  • Faith: Church of Poland
  • Jurisdiction: but my heart belongs to Rio de Janeiro
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2016, 12:56:11 PM »
Does anyone any info on how Church Slavonic is pronounced in Poland? It can be in Polish, as long as it clear, I'll try to read it through Google Translate.

I'm part of the Church of Poland, but we don't have such a cultural link. I'm mostly curious because I love the way the Polish language look/sounds, and also because it's the only living major Slavic language that preserves phonemic nasal vowels, a feature originally present at Old Slavonic.

There are two ways: Galician (in some Southern-Eastern parts of the country plus Lemkos in the South and those ones discplaced to the West parts of the country) and synodal (everywhere else). However, it's not exactly synodal like in Russia; we carry more about accents, don't change "o" to "a", it's also not so soft as in Russian pronunciation. Ah, and "г" it's between "g" and "h" (not like Russian, that say "g").

Anyway, there are some exceptions reading at Church like me ;) I read in Serbian pronunciation (except "г" - I follow local practice in this case).
Oh, I see! :) I think this is the original pronounciation of г. Do Russians frequently change o to a and ye to yi when speaking Slavonic, as they do in the Russian language? Most professional videos I find online avoid this, but there's usually a gap between this kind of register and commonplace practice.

I suppose the Galician pronounciation is closer to Polish? So, are yus letters pronounced as nasals or are they equalised with ya and ye, as in other practices?
Bendito seja o Reino do Pai, do Filho e do Espírito Santo!

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,530
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: POC, but my heart belongs to Antioch
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2016, 02:50:57 PM »
Oh, I see! :) I think this is the original pronounciation of г. Do Russians frequently change o to a and ye to yi when speaking Slavonic, as they do in the Russian language? Most professional videos I find online avoid this, but there's usually a gap between this kind of register and commonplace practice.
I've never been to Russia, so I can say only about Russians (or rather: people that their first langauge is Russian, so it's about Belarussians and some Ukrainians) reading (occassionaly) in Polish churches: they sometimes change "o" to "a", I've never heard "ye" to "yi" change; it's rather Ukrainian and Lemkos practice, but it's part of Galician pronunciation (that's not wrong, but just another variant).

I suppose the Galician pronounciation is closer to Polish? So, are yus letters pronounced as nasals or are they equalised with ya and ye, as in other practices?
It's closer to Ukrainian (and Lemko language), not necessarily to Polish. Nasals are not pronounced in any Slavic Church, anymore. They used to be pronuncated maybe in XIII century  :laugh: Especially, that they're not highliteted in the texts; I remember at my parish Church Slavonic lessons reading some texts in Old Church Slavonic, and it was the only time that we were reading nasals, because they w e r e in the texts.
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Offline RaphaCam

  • Prime Minister of Zimbabwe
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,455
  • Holy Prophet and God-seer Moses
    • Facebook - A Bíblia Ilustrada
  • Faith: Church of Poland
  • Jurisdiction: but my heart belongs to Rio de Janeiro
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2016, 03:49:55 PM »
Oh, I see! :) I think this is the original pronounciation of г. Do Russians frequently change o to a and ye to yi when speaking Slavonic, as they do in the Russian language? Most professional videos I find online avoid this, but there's usually a gap between this kind of register and commonplace practice.
I've never been to Russia, so I can say only about Russians (or rather: people that their first langauge is Russian, so it's about Belarussians and some Ukrainians) reading (occassionaly) in Polish churches: they sometimes change "o" to "a", I've never heard "ye" to "yi" change; it's rather Ukrainian and Lemkos practice, but it's part of Galician pronunciation (that's not wrong, but just another variant).

I suppose the Galician pronounciation is closer to Polish? So, are yus letters pronounced as nasals or are they equalised with ya and ye, as in other practices?
It's closer to Ukrainian (and Lemko language), not necessarily to Polish. Nasals are not pronounced in any Slavic Church, anymore. They used to be pronuncated maybe in XIII century  :laugh: Especially, that they're not highliteted in the texts; I remember at my parish Church Slavonic lessons reading some texts in Old Church Slavonic, and it was the only time that we were reading nasals, because they w e r e in the texts.
Nice to know. This kind of nuances we get when a high register of a language is subjected to variations is unfortunately something we don't really find on manuals. One of the things that disappointed me when I tried my luck with Arabic.
Bendito seja o Reino do Pai, do Filho e do Espírito Santo!

Offline Orest

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2016, 04:03:17 PM »
Does anyone any info on how Church Slavonic is pronounced in Poland? It can be in Polish, as long as it clear, I'll try to read it through Google Translate.

I'm part of the Church of Poland, but we don't have such a cultural link. I'm mostly curious because I love the way the Polish language look/sounds, and also because it's the only living major Slavic language that preserves phonemic nasal vowels, a feature originally present at Old Slavonic.
Look on Youtube for their services.  At home I have some a very old record from Poland from the Cathedral in Warsaw but I don't even have a turntable to play it on any more.  When I visited Poland I didn't notice anything different from the standard Ukrainian pronunciation of Church Slavonic except a softer pronunciation of the letter "s".

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,530
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: POC, but my heart belongs to Antioch
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2016, 04:13:05 PM »
Oh, I see! :) I think this is the original pronounciation of г. Do Russians frequently change o to a and ye to yi when speaking Slavonic, as they do in the Russian language? Most professional videos I find online avoid this, but there's usually a gap between this kind of register and commonplace practice.
I've never been to Russia, so I can say only about Russians (or rather: people that their first langauge is Russian, so it's about Belarussians and some Ukrainians) reading (occassionaly) in Polish churches: they sometimes change "o" to "a", I've never heard "ye" to "yi" change; it's rather Ukrainian and Lemkos practice, but it's part of Galician pronunciation (that's not wrong, but just another variant).

I suppose the Galician pronounciation is closer to Polish? So, are yus letters pronounced as nasals or are they equalised with ya and ye, as in other practices?
It's closer to Ukrainian (and Lemko language), not necessarily to Polish. Nasals are not pronounced in any Slavic Church, anymore. They used to be pronuncated maybe in XIII century  :laugh: Especially, that they're not highliteted in the texts; I remember at my parish Church Slavonic lessons reading some texts in Old Church Slavonic, and it was the only time that we were reading nasals, because they w e r e in the texts.
Nice to know. This kind of nuances we get when a high register of a language is subjected to variations is unfortunately something we don't really find on manuals. One of the things that disappointed me when I tried my luck with Arabic.
What you've tried from Arabic?

Does anyone any info on how Church Slavonic is pronounced in Poland? It can be in Polish, as long as it clear, I'll try to read it through Google Translate.

I'm part of the Church of Poland, but we don't have such a cultural link. I'm mostly curious because I love the way the Polish language look/sounds, and also because it's the only living major Slavic language that preserves phonemic nasal vowels, a feature originally present at Old Slavonic.
Look on Youtube for their services.  At home I have some a very old record from Poland from the Cathedral in Warsaw but I don't even have a turntable to play it on any more.  When I visited Poland I didn't notice anything different from the standard Ukrainian pronunciation of Church Slavonic except a softer pronunciation of the letter "s".
What pronunciation you mean as "standar" - synodal or Galician?
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Offline Aram

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 483
  • Faith: Armenian Orthodox
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2016, 04:24:36 PM »
It would be really difficult to study OCS without some knowledge of a Slavic language--the most useful being Bulgarian, though Russian is also extremely helpful. (When I studied OCS as a very beginner Russian student, everyone else in the class was a graduate student with knowledge of Bulgarian or Russian. It was really, really difficult to keep up...)

The standard textbook, it seems, is Horace Lunt's Old Church Slavonic, though I found it absolutely impossible to use given its liberal use of transliteration and really wonky linguistic terminology. If you know Russian, you can use the Soviet-era textbook by Khaburgaev (Г.А. Хабургаев), which is far more useful. I've been meaning to buy Fr. Alypy's book, but it's sort of low on the priorities right now.

Know that OCS is a very, very difficult language, but it makes sense after some study. The most difficult parts are the abbreviations, which make sense if you are least familiar with the words and know they're coming.

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,530
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: POC, but my heart belongs to Antioch
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2016, 04:29:34 PM »
It would be really difficult to study OCS without some knowledge of a Slavic language--the most useful being Bulgarian, though Russian is also extremely helpful. (When I studied OCS as a very beginner Russian student, everyone else in the class was a graduate student with knowledge of Bulgarian or Russian. It was really, really difficult to keep up...)

The standard textbook, it seems, is Horace Lunt's Old Church Slavonic, though I found it absolutely impossible to use given its liberal use of transliteration and really wonky linguistic terminology. If you know Russian, you can use the Soviet-era textbook by Khaburgaev (Г.А. Хабургаев), which is far more useful. I've been meaning to buy Fr. Alypy's book, but it's sort of low on the priorities right now.

Know that OCS is a very, very difficult language, but it makes sense after some study. The most difficult parts are the abbreviations, which make sense if you are least familiar with the words and know they're coming.

Do you mean Old Church Slavonic or Church Slavonic? I don't know any grammar books or manuals for the first one.

As for the abbreviations - I don't find it so difficult. At one of the first lessons we got a list with the most popular ones, and now it's logical for me to see what word is hidden behind the abbreviation (maybe it's more natural for Slavs, or people reguraly attending services in Church Slavonic).
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Offline RaphaCam

  • Prime Minister of Zimbabwe
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,455
  • Holy Prophet and God-seer Moses
    • Facebook - A Bíblia Ilustrada
  • Faith: Church of Poland
  • Jurisdiction: but my heart belongs to Rio de Janeiro
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2016, 04:32:51 PM »
Oh, I see! :) I think this is the original pronounciation of г. Do Russians frequently change o to a and ye to yi when speaking Slavonic, as they do in the Russian language? Most professional videos I find online avoid this, but there's usually a gap between this kind of register and commonplace practice.
I've never been to Russia, so I can say only about Russians (or rather: people that their first langauge is Russian, so it's about Belarussians and some Ukrainians) reading (occassionaly) in Polish churches: they sometimes change "o" to "a", I've never heard "ye" to "yi" change; it's rather Ukrainian and Lemkos practice, but it's part of Galician pronunciation (that's not wrong, but just another variant).

I suppose the Galician pronounciation is closer to Polish? So, are yus letters pronounced as nasals or are they equalised with ya and ye, as in other practices?
It's closer to Ukrainian (and Lemko language), not necessarily to Polish. Nasals are not pronounced in any Slavic Church, anymore. They used to be pronuncated maybe in XIII century  :laugh: Especially, that they're not highliteted in the texts; I remember at my parish Church Slavonic lessons reading some texts in Old Church Slavonic, and it was the only time that we were reading nasals, because they w e r e in the texts.
Nice to know. This kind of nuances we get when a high register of a language is subjected to variations is unfortunately something we don't really find on manuals. One of the things that disappointed me when I tried my luck with Arabic.
What you've tried from Arabic?
Standard Arabic, basically. I was trying to find resources for Lebanese Arabic, but courses were impossible to find, so I was almost going for Egyptian just to deattach myself from that way too conservative register. And I couldn't find anything on regional variations of MSA, which should be an important thing, since dialect courses were usually dealing with another extreme. For instance: it seems virtually no one still holds to the three-vowel system of Classical Arabic, but that's how any MSA course will handle the language.



Bendito seja o Reino do Pai, do Filho e do Espírito Santo!

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,530
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: POC, but my heart belongs to Antioch
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2016, 04:58:49 PM »
Oh, I see! :) I think this is the original pronounciation of г. Do Russians frequently change o to a and ye to yi when speaking Slavonic, as they do in the Russian language? Most professional videos I find online avoid this, but there's usually a gap between this kind of register and commonplace practice.
I've never been to Russia, so I can say only about Russians (or rather: people that their first langauge is Russian, so it's about Belarussians and some Ukrainians) reading (occassionaly) in Polish churches: they sometimes change "o" to "a", I've never heard "ye" to "yi" change; it's rather Ukrainian and Lemkos practice, but it's part of Galician pronunciation (that's not wrong, but just another variant).

I suppose the Galician pronounciation is closer to Polish? So, are yus letters pronounced as nasals or are they equalised with ya and ye, as in other practices?
It's closer to Ukrainian (and Lemko language), not necessarily to Polish. Nasals are not pronounced in any Slavic Church, anymore. They used to be pronuncated maybe in XIII century  :laugh: Especially, that they're not highliteted in the texts; I remember at my parish Church Slavonic lessons reading some texts in Old Church Slavonic, and it was the only time that we were reading nasals, because they w e r e in the texts.
Nice to know. This kind of nuances we get when a high register of a language is subjected to variations is unfortunately something we don't really find on manuals. One of the things that disappointed me when I tried my luck with Arabic.
What you've tried from Arabic?
Standard Arabic, basically. I was trying to find resources for Lebanese Arabic, but courses were impossible to find, so I was almost going for Egyptian just to deattach myself from that way too conservative register. And I couldn't find anything on regional variations of MSA, which should be an important thing, since dialect courses were usually dealing with another extreme. For instance: it seems virtually no one still holds to the three-vowel system of Classical Arabic, but that's how any MSA course will handle the language.

But what elements (grammar - and what from it, vocabulary, pronunciation writing etc.) you've tried to learn?

If you know MSA  and the roots ( it's not only 3 vowels, there are roots with 2 or 4 vowels too) it's much easier to learn dialects, because all of them are from SA; wnen you're studying a dialect, you should at first work out which vowels are replaced by which ones (in pronunciation); knowledge about the roots it's something basic to do it.
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Offline RaphaCam

  • Prime Minister of Zimbabwe
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,455
  • Holy Prophet and God-seer Moses
    • Facebook - A Bíblia Ilustrada
  • Faith: Church of Poland
  • Jurisdiction: but my heart belongs to Rio de Janeiro
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2016, 05:13:06 PM »
Oh, I see! :) I think this is the original pronounciation of г. Do Russians frequently change o to a and ye to yi when speaking Slavonic, as they do in the Russian language? Most professional videos I find online avoid this, but there's usually a gap between this kind of register and commonplace practice.
I've never been to Russia, so I can say only about Russians (or rather: people that their first langauge is Russian, so it's about Belarussians and some Ukrainians) reading (occassionaly) in Polish churches: they sometimes change "o" to "a", I've never heard "ye" to "yi" change; it's rather Ukrainian and Lemkos practice, but it's part of Galician pronunciation (that's not wrong, but just another variant).

I suppose the Galician pronounciation is closer to Polish? So, are yus letters pronounced as nasals or are they equalised with ya and ye, as in other practices?
It's closer to Ukrainian (and Lemko language), not necessarily to Polish. Nasals are not pronounced in any Slavic Church, anymore. They used to be pronuncated maybe in XIII century  :laugh: Especially, that they're not highliteted in the texts; I remember at my parish Church Slavonic lessons reading some texts in Old Church Slavonic, and it was the only time that we were reading nasals, because they w e r e in the texts.
Nice to know. This kind of nuances we get when a high register of a language is subjected to variations is unfortunately something we don't really find on manuals. One of the things that disappointed me when I tried my luck with Arabic.
What you've tried from Arabic?
Standard Arabic, basically. I was trying to find resources for Lebanese Arabic, but courses were impossible to find, so I was almost going for Egyptian just to deattach myself from that way too conservative register. And I couldn't find anything on regional variations of MSA, which should be an important thing, since dialect courses were usually dealing with another extreme. For instance: it seems virtually no one still holds to the three-vowel system of Classical Arabic, but that's how any MSA course will handle the language.

But what elements (grammar - and what from it, vocabulary, pronunciation writing etc.) you've tried to learn?

If you know MSA  and the roots ( it's not only 3 vowels, there are roots with 2 or 4 vowels too) it's much easier to learn dialects, because all of them are from SA; wnen you're studying a dialect, you should at first work out which vowels are replaced by which ones (in pronunciation); knowledge about the roots it's something basic to do it.
I had an easy time learning how to write it, and the first everyday words went on easily. But eventually new words and new model sentences just sounded too foreign, my inability to learn those irregular plural forms disappointed me and the sight of eventually having to learn those complicated verb patterns and knowing it was just one of many registers made me give up.


I meant three vowels as in a/i/u, as opposed to modern dialects developing new vowels over time. It seems  Lebanese, for example, has a huge number of vowel sounds.
Bendito seja o Reino do Pai, do Filho e do Espírito Santo!

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,530
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: POC, but my heart belongs to Antioch
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2016, 05:25:09 PM »
I had an easy time learning how to write it, and the first everyday words went on easily. But eventually new words and new model sentences just sounded too foreign, my inability to learn those irregular plural forms disappointed me and the sight of eventually having to learn those complicated verb patterns and knowing it was just one of many registers made me give up.
Irregular forms - only by practice and experience, then inuition works.
They're not complicated. Standard Arabic is very logical language.

I meant three vowels as in a/i/u, as opposed to modern dialects developing new vowels over time. It seems  Lebanese, for example, has a huge number of vowel sounds.
Ah, now I see what you meant. Every dialect is richer in vowel sounds, but, actaully, does it always matter if you say "a" or "e"?... Sure, it's also part of grammar (especially if it's passive or not, but on the other hand, typically passive is rarely used by Arabs), but..
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 05:42:02 PM by Dominika »
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Offline RaphaCam

  • Prime Minister of Zimbabwe
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,455
  • Holy Prophet and God-seer Moses
    • Facebook - A Bíblia Ilustrada
  • Faith: Church of Poland
  • Jurisdiction: but my heart belongs to Rio de Janeiro
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2016, 06:03:38 PM »
True, I think I was a bit of a perfectionist when I tried to learn Arabic. If I re-tried it, I might be able to handle it in a much more practical way. The same thing with Russian, which I really regret having dropped, but now I'm more interested in vernishing English, Spanish, German and French... maybe in the future. :P
Bendito seja o Reino do Pai, do Filho e do Espírito Santo!

Offline Aram

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 483
  • Faith: Armenian Orthodox
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2016, 08:22:38 PM »
It would be really difficult to study OCS without some knowledge of a Slavic language--the most useful being Bulgarian, though Russian is also extremely helpful. (When I studied OCS as a very beginner Russian student, everyone else in the class was a graduate student with knowledge of Bulgarian or Russian. It was really, really difficult to keep up...)

The standard textbook, it seems, is Horace Lunt's Old Church Slavonic, though I found it absolutely impossible to use given its liberal use of transliteration and really wonky linguistic terminology. If you know Russian, you can use the Soviet-era textbook by Khaburgaev (Г.А. Хабургаев), which is far more useful. I've been meaning to buy Fr. Alypy's book, but it's sort of low on the priorities right now.

Know that OCS is a very, very difficult language, but it makes sense after some study. The most difficult parts are the abbreviations, which make sense if you are least familiar with the words and know they're coming.

Do you mean Old Church Slavonic or Church Slavonic? I don't know any grammar books or manuals for the first one.

OCS=Old Church Slavonic. That's what Khaburgaev and Lunt cover.

Offline Orest

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2016, 08:54:06 AM »
It would be really difficult to study OCS without some knowledge of a Slavic language--the most useful being Bulgarian, though Russian is also extremely helpful. (When I studied OCS as a very beginner Russian student, everyone else in the class was a graduate student with knowledge of Bulgarian or Russian. It was really, really difficult to keep up...)

The standard textbook, it seems, is Horace Lunt's Old Church Slavonic, though I found it absolutely impossible to use given its liberal use of transliteration and really wonky linguistic terminology. If you know Russian, you can use the Soviet-era textbook by Khaburgaev (Г.А. Хабургаев), which is far more useful. I've been meaning to buy Fr. Alypy's book, but it's sort of low on the priorities right now.

Know that OCS is a very, very difficult language, but it makes sense after some study. The most difficult parts are the abbreviations, which make sense if you are least familiar with the words and know they're coming.

Do you mean Old Church Slavonic or Church Slavonic? I don't know any grammar books or manuals for the first one.

OCS=Old Church Slavonic. That's what Khaburgaev and Lunt cover.

Lunt's good is still the standard text book in universities for studying Old Church Slavonic. (not Church Slavonic).

Offline Orest

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2016, 08:58:46 AM »
Quote
What pronunciation you mean as "standar" - synodal or Galician?

I mean the standard Ukrainian Orthodox Church Slavonic used which I heard in Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in Volynia, Kyiv (depending on the parish in Kyiv because some use the Russian recension of Church Slavonic) and in Bukovyna. 
I don't know anything about the Galician pronunciation of Church Slavonic.

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,530
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: POC, but my heart belongs to Antioch
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2016, 11:11:53 AM »
Quote
What pronunciation you mean as "standar" - synodal or Galician?

I mean the standard Ukrainian Orthodox Church Slavonic used which I heard in Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in Volynia, Kyiv (depending on the parish in Kyiv because some use the Russian recension of Church Slavonic) and in Bukovyna. 
I don't know anything about the Galician pronunciation of Church Slavonic.

So it's probably Galician ("halicka" or "s vymovoju"). Do you say vyekov or vikov? The second one is Galician.

It would be really difficult to study OCS without some knowledge of a Slavic language--the most useful being Bulgarian, though Russian is also extremely helpful. (When I studied OCS as a very beginner Russian student, everyone else in the class was a graduate student with knowledge of Bulgarian or Russian. It was really, really difficult to keep up...)

The standard textbook, it seems, is Horace Lunt's Old Church Slavonic, though I found it absolutely impossible to use given its liberal use of transliteration and really wonky linguistic terminology. If you know Russian, you can use the Soviet-era textbook by Khaburgaev (Г.А. Хабургаев), which is far more useful. I've been meaning to buy Fr. Alypy's book, but it's sort of low on the priorities right now.

Know that OCS is a very, very difficult language, but it makes sense after some study. The most difficult parts are the abbreviations, which make sense if you are least familiar with the words and know they're coming.

Do you mean Old Church Slavonic or Church Slavonic? I don't know any grammar books or manuals for the first one.

OCS=Old Church Slavonic. That's what Khaburgaev and Lunt cover.

Lunt's good is still the standard text book in universities for studying Old Church Slavonic. (not Church Slavonic).

What's the purpose of studying Old Church Slavonic? I suppsoe there are not many books/manuscripts written in this language, it's rather for linguists. It's also not useful at Slavic Churches.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 11:12:10 AM by Dominika »
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Offline RaphaCam

  • Prime Minister of Zimbabwe
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,455
  • Holy Prophet and God-seer Moses
    • Facebook - A Bíblia Ilustrada
  • Faith: Church of Poland
  • Jurisdiction: but my heart belongs to Rio de Janeiro
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2016, 12:15:56 PM »
Quote
What pronunciation you mean as "standar" - synodal or Galician?

I mean the standard Ukrainian Orthodox Church Slavonic used which I heard in Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in Volynia, Kyiv (depending on the parish in Kyiv because some use the Russian recension of Church Slavonic) and in Bukovyna. 
I don't know anything about the Galician pronunciation of Church Slavonic.

So it's probably Galician ("halicka" or "s vymovoju"). Do you say vyekov or vikov? The second one is Galician.

It would be really difficult to study OCS without some knowledge of a Slavic language--the most useful being Bulgarian, though Russian is also extremely helpful. (When I studied OCS as a very beginner Russian student, everyone else in the class was a graduate student with knowledge of Bulgarian or Russian. It was really, really difficult to keep up...)

The standard textbook, it seems, is Horace Lunt's Old Church Slavonic, though I found it absolutely impossible to use given its liberal use of transliteration and really wonky linguistic terminology. If you know Russian, you can use the Soviet-era textbook by Khaburgaev (Г.А. Хабургаев), which is far more useful. I've been meaning to buy Fr. Alypy's book, but it's sort of low on the priorities right now.

Know that OCS is a very, very difficult language, but it makes sense after some study. The most difficult parts are the abbreviations, which make sense if you are least familiar with the words and know they're coming.

Do you mean Old Church Slavonic or Church Slavonic? I don't know any grammar books or manuals for the first one.

OCS=Old Church Slavonic. That's what Khaburgaev and Lunt cover.

Lunt's good is still the standard text book in universities for studying Old Church Slavonic. (not Church Slavonic).

What's the purpose of studying Old Church Slavonic? I suppsoe there are not many books/manuscripts written in this language, it's rather for linguists. It's also not useful at Slavic Churches.
Is there a lot of difference? I thought it was more about context, as in "Classical Latin" vs. "Ecclesiastical Latin".
Bendito seja o Reino do Pai, do Filho e do Espírito Santo!

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,530
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: POC, but my heart belongs to Antioch
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2016, 02:44:37 PM »
What's the purpose of studying Old Church Slavonic? I suppsoe there are not many books/manuscripts written in this language, it's rather for linguists. It's also not useful at Slavic Churches.
Is there a lot of difference? I thought it was more about context, as in "Classical Latin" vs. "Ecclesiastical Latin".
Different writing (e.g no spaces between the words, no capital letters), more complex grammar, richer system of sounds.
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Offline RaphaCam

  • Prime Minister of Zimbabwe
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,455
  • Holy Prophet and God-seer Moses
    • Facebook - A Bíblia Ilustrada
  • Faith: Church of Poland
  • Jurisdiction: but my heart belongs to Rio de Janeiro
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2016, 03:06:09 PM »
What's the purpose of studying Old Church Slavonic? I suppsoe there are not many books/manuscripts written in this language, it's rather for linguists. It's also not useful at Slavic Churches.
Is there a lot of difference? I thought it was more about context, as in "Classical Latin" vs. "Ecclesiastical Latin".
Different writing (e.g no spaces between the words, no capital letters), more complex grammar, richer system of sounds.
I see, so the difference must be a bit wider than the example I gave.
Bendito seja o Reino do Pai, do Filho e do Espírito Santo!

Offline Aram

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 483
  • Faith: Armenian Orthodox
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2016, 03:37:27 PM »
What's the purpose of studying Old Church Slavonic? I suppsoe there are not many books/manuscripts written in this language, it's rather for linguists. It's also not useful at Slavic Churches.
Is there a lot of difference? I thought it was more about context, as in "Classical Latin" vs. "Ecclesiastical Latin".
Different writing (e.g no spaces between the words, no capital letters), more complex grammar, richer system of sounds.
Are we even talking about the same language here? I've got my copies of Lunt and Khaburgaev in front of me, and that's not what they're working with. There are most definitely spaces between the words and capital letters.

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,530
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: POC, but my heart belongs to Antioch
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2016, 04:03:52 PM »
What's the purpose of studying Old Church Slavonic? I suppsoe there are not many books/manuscripts written in this language, it's rather for linguists. It's also not useful at Slavic Churches.
Is there a lot of difference? I thought it was more about context, as in "Classical Latin" vs. "Ecclesiastical Latin".
Different writing (e.g no spaces between the words, no capital letters), more complex grammar, richer system of sounds.
Are we even talking about the same language here? I've got my copies of Lunt and Khaburgaev in front of me, and that's not what they're working with. There are most definitely spaces between the words and capital letters.

Reading Lunt's book, I have impression that he put into term "Old Church Slavonic" two languages: Old Church Slavonic and Church Slavonic. In English, even sometimes in Slavic languages, there two names are mistaken.
He give examples much later than XI century, e.g our Polish Supraśl monastery, and these manuscripts are certainly in Church Slavonic.

That's why I was surprised by somebody learning Old Church Slavonic - it's useless  beside linguistics.
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Offline Orest

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2016, 03:53:55 PM »
What's the purpose of studying Old Church Slavonic? I suppsoe there are not many books/manuscripts written in this language, it's rather for linguists. It's also not useful at Slavic Churches.
Is there a lot of difference? I thought it was more about context, as in "Classical Latin" vs. "Ecclesiastical Latin".
Different writing (e.g no spaces between the words, no capital letters), more complex grammar, richer system of sounds.
Are we even talking about the same language here? I've got my copies of Lunt and Khaburgaev in front of me, and that's not what they're working with. There are most definitely spaces between the words and capital letters.

Reading Lunt's book, I have impression that he put into term "Old Church Slavonic" two languages: Old Church Slavonic and Church Slavonic. In English, even sometimes in Slavic languages, there two names are mistaken.
He give examples much later than XI century, e.g our Polish Supraśl monastery, and these manuscripts are certainly in Church Slavonic.

That's why I was surprised by somebody learning Old Church Slavonic - it's useless  beside linguistics.
Dominika, you assessment of Lunt making a distinction between Church Slavonic and Old Church Slavonic is quite right.  I have forgotten the cut-off date he used. 
When I was a grad student all the students in graduate Slavic Studies were required to take Old Church Slavonic with Lunt's book as the textbook. As a  for a Linguistics requirement. In their undergraduate years they were required to take Linguistics 100 which introduced them to linguistics in general. 
I took the course because I was in history & wanted to read the chronicles.  But I was the only person in the course who was from the History Department.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Prime Minister of Zimbabwe
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,455
  • Holy Prophet and God-seer Moses
    • Facebook - A Bíblia Ilustrada
  • Faith: Church of Poland
  • Jurisdiction: but my heart belongs to Rio de Janeiro
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2016, 06:51:24 PM »
Is there any concordance for the Elizabethan Bible out there? I could really use it. I don't think I'll find anything in English, but if I could have one in Church Slavonic vs. a language which I can put into Google Translate, it would be great.
Bendito seja o Reino do Pai, do Filho e do Espírito Santo!

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,530
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: POC, but my heart belongs to Antioch
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2016, 07:46:14 PM »
Is there any concordance for the Elizabethan Bible out there? I could really use it. I don't think I'll find anything in English, but if I could have one in Church Slavonic vs. a language which I can put into Google Translate, it would be great.

Something very basic in Russian:
http://azbyka.ru/otechnik/Nikifor/biblejskaja-entsiklopedija/
http://azbyka.ru/otechnik/Spravochniki/slovar-nustrema/
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Offline RaphaCam

  • Prime Minister of Zimbabwe
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,455
  • Holy Prophet and God-seer Moses
    • Facebook - A Bíblia Ilustrada
  • Faith: Church of Poland
  • Jurisdiction: but my heart belongs to Rio de Janeiro
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2016, 08:42:27 PM »
Is there any concordance for the Elizabethan Bible out there? I could really use it. I don't think I'll find anything in English, but if I could have one in Church Slavonic vs. a language which I can put into Google Translate, it would be great.

Something very basic in Russian:
http://azbyka.ru/otechnik/Nikifor/biblejskaja-entsiklopedija/
http://azbyka.ru/otechnik/Spravochniki/slovar-nustrema/
Thanks! Great tool, it will be very useful.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 08:54:17 PM by RaphaCam »
Bendito seja o Reino do Pai, do Filho e do Espírito Santo!

Offline Tallitot

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,885
    • USCJ
  • Faith: Jewish(Conservative)
Re: learning Church Slavonic
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2016, 03:35:40 AM »
wrong thread
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 03:36:44 AM by Tallitot »
Proverbs 22:7