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Author Topic: ECUMENICAL PATRIARCH  (Read 4425 times) Average Rating: 0
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Bishop Paul Andrew
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« on: July 07, 2006, 03:39:46 AM »

Here is somthing that I found concerning the ECUMENICAL PATRIARCH . Just Click this website

http://www.orthodoxnews.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=EditorialsOpinion.one&content_id=14913&CFID=29966871&CFTOKEN=76289895
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« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2006, 08:34:13 AM »

And I find it concerning that such a misinformed, misleading and confused screed would be published (and approved) by an Orthodox Christian group on the Internet.

Oh wait! It's on OCL's site. No wonder.

I certainly hope their civil suits against the Orthodox Church are a wee bit more coherent and reasonable. (Although New York's Supreme Court obviously didn't think so.) O tempora! O mores!
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« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2006, 09:35:24 AM »

Well, I think first, everyone has to realize that its an OPED. Which means its an OPINION. So it can't be seen as an official position. Second, I agree, the ideas in there are kind of distrotive and misleading, but some of them are right on the money. As for the writer, I think he needs to focus on grammar and editing.... And finally, I would love to know where he got the idea that Met. Nicholas is the most efficient Bishop in America... Obviously, he doesn't know too many bishops, or hasn't been paying attention for the last 20 or so years.


-Nick
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« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2006, 11:34:11 AM »

That this is an oped on OCL's site should throw up a big red flag in itself. Quotations out of context and a weird or slanted view of what is the EP's role in the Church are rather blatant.

BTW, we all know admiralnick has an axe to grind with ACROD but I love both my Met. Maximos and my spouse's Met. Nicholas. Efficient is a good term for His Eminence Met. Nicholas; his small diocese can afford to loan priests to the GOA in this region and have priests on long term loan as lecturers at Duquesne U. here in the Burgh.
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« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2006, 12:13:05 PM »

This has nothing to do with me and ACROD, I'm stating this strictly from an efficiency standpoint. I would like to point out that if you add up the number of times that His Eminence takes trips out of the country, you will find that he is away more often than he is present. The Bishop/Metropolitan of a diocese's job is to minister to his flock, not to go around the world and see the sights and represent the EP. That is one of the most prime examples of inefficiency. He spends more time with trips than he does ministering to his flock, very inefficient. His Harvest 2000 brain child was supposed to drastically increase diocesan population.... It ended on a very sour note, I can certainly come up with alot more inefficiencies if necessary, but this isn't a Met. Nicholas thread and that can be for another time and place.

-Nick
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« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2006, 01:30:57 PM »

Nick,
Still oiling the whetstone are we? Try a PM next time please.
I guess his last trip (returning from Slovakia last week) at the 'invitation' of the EP is extracurricular activity to you?
I certainly do not know how to be a bishop - glad you do.
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« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2006, 09:58:17 AM »

On some issues they have a point, but on some others they seem to lack knowledge of the subject:
1. the EP's relations shit with the chruch of Greece. They are blaming Vartholomeos for this, although he is RIGHT. The problems come from archbishop of Greece. But there are alot of issues here, which cannot be covered in a few lines. However, the Archbishop Christodoulos visited COnstantinople a few days ago, nobody know what they talked about, but as they said, they are more united as ever. lets see.

2. Problems with the russion patriarchate. They are blaming again Vartholomeos. But if someone has studied the issues, he/she realise that "it takes 2 to tango.."

3. The bitter struggle with Esfigmenou monastery. How can they blame the Patriarch for this?HuhHuhHuh??

4. "Why would the Patriarchate and its advocates, while actively seeking help from the Bush Administration, the most viscerally anti-Castro administration in recent years, undertake a high-profile trip to Cuba to dedicate a small Orthodox church in Havana? "

should i really comment on this?

5. "Any further delay in arranging a Pan-Orthodox synod is inexcusable and threatens the viability of the Patriarchate."
Why dont they ask the russian Patriarch why the Pan-Orthodox synod cannot take place?


 
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« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2006, 09:37:16 PM »

I'll take a stab at #4:
If we get to Mars, I expect the EP to establiah a church there asap, too. Any more and I violate political discussion rules.
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« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2006, 09:45:23 PM »

On some issues they have a point, but on some others they seem to lack knowledge of the subject:
1. the EP's relations shit with the chruch of Greece. They are blaming Vartholomeos for this, although he is RIGHT. The problems come from archbishop of Greece. But there are alot of issues here, which cannot be covered in a few lines. However, the Archbishop Christodoulos visited COnstantinople a few days ago, nobody know what they talked about, but as they said, they are more united as ever. lets see.

2. Problems with the russion patriarchate. They are blaming again Vartholomeos. But if someone has studied the issues, he/she realise that "it takes 2 to tango.."

3. The bitter struggle with Esfigmenou monastery. How can they blame the Patriarch for this?HuhHuhHuh??

4. "Why would the Patriarchate and its advocates, while actively seeking help from the Bush Administration, the most viscerally anti-Castro administration in recent years, undertake a high-profile trip to Cuba to dedicate a small Orthodox church in Havana? "

should i really comment on this?

5. "Any further delay in arranging a Pan-Orthodox synod is inexcusable and threatens the viability of the Patriarchate."
Why dont they ask the russian Patriarch why the Pan-Orthodox synod cannot take place?


 


As far as number 5 is concerned, I don't think that everyone wants to unite under the EP since they see him as a figure head of Greek nationalism. That just makes things into a circle. Now if the EP would take a moment to step back and realize that there are other Orthodox besides the Greeks, we would be getting alot further than we are.

-Nick
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« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2006, 08:57:52 AM »


As far as number 5 is concerned, I don't think that everyone wants to unite under the EP since they see him as a figure head of Greek nationalism. That just makes things into a circle. Now if the EP would take a moment to step back and realize that there are other Orthodox besides the Greeks, we would be getting alot further than we are.

-Nick

Funny, A Turkish citizen the EP is. Some here cannot undertand the old definition of being a Roman - speak Greek and be an Orthodox Christian...nothing about being an Hellene.  Wink
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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2006, 09:17:15 AM »


As far as number 5 is concerned, I don't think that everyone wants to unite under the EP since they see him as a figure head of Greek nationalism. That just makes things into a circle.


-Nick
[/quote]

in my opinion  2 kinds of people see him as a figure head of Greek nationalism. People that dont know much about him and Turks...

Now if the EP would take a moment to step back and realize that there are other Orthodox besides the Greeks, we would be getting alot further than we are.

i think he does better than all of us.. i personally have heard him more than 2-3 times saying that Orthodoxy does not belong to the Greeks.
And if you look closely to his work, his work is very "Ecumenic".
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« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2006, 03:42:36 PM »

He is very ecumenic, especially when he came to Chicago and served a 4 hour liturgy entirely in Greek.


-Nick
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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2006, 07:28:45 PM »

He is very ecumenic, especially when he came to Chicago and served a 4 hour liturgy entirely in Greek.


-Nick
Nick,
Does a service in Greek by the EP mean "non-Ecumenical"? does it really matter if this service by the EP was in a different language?

So if the EP goes to China, does he have to do the service in Chinese?


Our faith is Ecumenical
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« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2006, 07:48:05 PM »

Yes, if he goes to China, the service does indeed have to be in Chinese. Why would I attend a service that's in Greek? I can't understand it and it does nothing for me. If I'm going to go to church to pray, I'd like to understand the language being used in the liturgy.

-Nick
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« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2006, 08:24:02 PM »

Yes, if he goes to China, the service does indeed have to be in Chinese. Why would I attend a service that's in Greek? I can't understand it and it does nothing for me. If I'm going to go to church to pray, I'd like to understand the language being used in the liturgy.

-Nick
Do you know WHY the EP celebrated the Liturgy in Greek?
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« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2006, 08:54:05 PM »

Yes, if he goes to China, the service does indeed have to be in Chinese. Why would I attend a service that's in Greek? I can't understand it and it does nothing for me. If I'm going to go to church to pray, I'd like to understand the language being used in the liturgy.

-Nick

So a bishop who does not speak chinese should not be able to serve in China? Even if the Bishop is over China?  Furthermore, from your statement, are we to assume that the Church should be divided along linguistic, and by extension ethnic, lines? Is it not one Eucharist, are we not one Church, regardless of the Language in which the mysteries are being celebrated; if the Eucharist being served in Greek 'does nothing for you' then there are far greater problems than linguistic ones that need to be addressed.

This heretical belief that people should only be under bishops who speak their language or are of the same ethnicity was condemned at the Synod of Constantinople in 1872. We are one Church regardless of culture, ethnicity, or language and these things are completely irrelevant to any discussion of Episcopal authority.
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« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2006, 09:17:35 PM »

So a bishop who does not speak chinese should not be able to serve in China? Even if the Bishop is over China?ÂÂ  

No, that's not what I said. What I said was if he is going to China to serve, he should serve the Liturgy in Chinese, not Greek.

Furthermore, from your statement, are we to assume that the Church should be divided along linguistic, and by extension ethnic, lines? Is it not one Eucharist, are we not one Church, regardless of the Language in which the mysteries are being celebrated; if the Eucharist being served in Greek 'does nothing for you' then there are far greater problems than linguistic ones that need to be addressed.

So then let me ask you this, would you attend a Seminary which teaches only in Serbian?

This heretical belief that people should only be under bishops who speak their language or are of the same ethnicity was condemned at the Synod of Constantinople in 1872. We are one Church regardless of culture, ethnicity, or language and these things are completely irrelevant to any discussion of Episcopal authority.

We are indeed one church, but we are a fractured church. Why doesn't the Ecumenical Patriarch want to recognize the OCA as a canonical Orthodox Church as SCOBA has? The point of language culture and ethnicity is not to unite under the greek language culture and ethnicity, but to unite under english language and nationality as Americans and let the EP be by himself as first among equals but with no direct rule over the Orthodox Churches in America. Let the American Churches be Autocephalus and rule themselves and they would be much better off. If you want to stay with the EP, you can move to Turkey and be with him 24/7 and we would all be happy.

-Nick
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« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2006, 09:27:52 PM »

No, that's not what I said. What I said was if he is going to China to serve, he should serve the Liturgy in Chinese, not Greek.

Which would be kinda difficult if he didn't speak chineese, now wouldn't it? Unlike the layman the priest does actually have to read the liturgy, requiring some level of knowledge of the language he's serving in (and you dont just pick up chinese and start reading it, and no, transliteration would not work well with chinese)

Quote
So then let me ask you this, would you attend a Seminary which teaches only in Serbian?

First of all, we're talking about the Eucharistic celebration, not an academic setting. Secondly, yes, I'd be willing to give that a go, I would love to learn Serbian and that would be a wonderful opportunity...sink or swim as they say.

Quote
We are indeed one church, but we are a fractured church. Why doesn't the Ecumenical Patriarch want to recognize the OCA as a canonical Orthodox Church as SCOBA has? The point of language culture and ethnicity is not to unite under the greek language culture and ethnicity, but to unite under english language and nationality as Americans and let the EP be by himself as first among equals but with no direct rule over the Orthodox Churches in America. Let the American Churches be Autocephalus and rule themselves and they would be much better off. If you want to stay with the EP, you can move to Turkey and be with him 24/7 and we would all be happy.

Ummm, no. We dont need to unify under a single culture, nationality, or language...english, greek, russian, serbian, or otherwise. The Church is not a nationalist organization. The Church needs to unify under a single Bishop, the Bishop who has jurisdiction under the Ancient Canons...the Church in America needs to unify under the Oecumenical Throne. Traditional Orthodox Eccelsiology is based on unity by the Eucharist under the Episcopacy, not unity by Nationality and overlaping Episcopal Jurisdictions.

Furthermore, the American Church is NOWHERE CLOSE to being ready for Autocephalous...when we've been 90%+ Orthodox for over 500 years we can start talking about 'autocephaly' (not that I'd support it then either, but we can at least talk about it).
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« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2006, 10:03:02 PM »

Ummm, no. We dont need to unify under a single culture, nationality, or language...english, greek, russian, serbian, or otherwise. The Church is not a nationalist organization.

GiC, why do you think Sts Cyril and Methodius and Stephan of Perm were sent forth? Why the church perhaps does not have to be unified linguistically, you can't deny that increasing use of the vernacular helps immensely in winning over new nations.
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« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2006, 10:37:20 PM »

GiC, why do you think Sts Cyril and Methodius and Stephan of Perm were sent forth? Why the church perhaps does not have to be unified linguistically, you can't deny that increasing use of the vernacular helps immensely in winning over new nations.

Sts. Cyril and Methodius, while translating the liturgy into a slavonic language, didn't pretent to set up an independent Episcopal authority over the lands to which they were missionaries. Rather, they set up Churches that were under the Great Church of Christ; they made no attempt to undermine the traditional ecclesiological structure of the Church.
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« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2006, 11:26:29 PM »

"Why doesn't the Ecumenical Patriarch want to recognize the OCA as a canonical Orthodox Church as SCOBA has?"  Sin of Pride?

What is up with the EP anyhow?HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh?
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« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2006, 12:04:18 AM »

Sts. Cyril and Methodius, while translating the liturgy into a slavonic language, didn't pretent to set up an independent Episcopal authority over the lands to which they were missionaries. Rather, they set up Churches that were under the Great Church of Christ; they made no attempt to undermine the traditional ecclesiological structure of the Church.

Actually, Sts Cyril and Methodius placed themselves under the Bishop of Rome and looked to him for leadership. Read the Vita.

But anyway, I was referring to your attack on those who disagree with the EP performing the liturgy in Greek. Even were all Orthodox in the United States under the EP, as you desire, wouldn't it make sense for the activity of the resulting American archdiocese to be in English? After all, regardless of who the leadership is, the masses we are trying to win to the Faith are English speakers.
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« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2006, 12:04:36 AM »

Duplicate post, please delete.
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« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2006, 12:05:59 AM »

Duplicate post, please delete.
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« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2006, 12:07:20 AM »

"Why doesn't the Ecumenical Patriarch want to recognize the OCA as a canonical Orthodox Church as SCOBA has?"ÂÂ  Sin of Pride?

What is up with the EP anyhow?HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh?

What is the EP's complaint against the OCA except pride?
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« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2006, 01:06:47 AM »

This heretical belief that people should only be under bishops who speak their language or are of the same ethnicity was condemned at the Synod of Constantinople in 1872. We are one Church regardless of culture, ethnicity, or language and these things are completely irrelevant to any discussion of Episcopal authority.

I think that this is the answer to anyone that implies that EP tried to impose cultural and political goals to the lands under its jurisdiction as other churches tried unfortunately to do later.Today rusians speak rusian serbs croatoserbian bulgarians bulgarian etc.I think that this is the greatest proof that EP never tried to impose anythink to anyone.The impartial and strictly religious policy that the Great church of crist follow in its history is the reason that unfortunatelyÂÂ  many christians call ourÂÂ  Ecumenical Patriarch, Greek, Romean, Turk, and only God knows what ever else.
TY.I am sorry for any verbal mistake I have madeÂÂ  Lips SealedÂÂ  Cheesy
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« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2006, 01:12:08 AM »

"Why doesn't the Ecumenical Patriarch want to recognize the OCA as a canonical Orthodox Church as SCOBA has?"ÂÂ  Sin of Pride?

What is up with the EP anyhow?HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh?

Because the Metropolia is uncanonical in so far as they claim autocephaly...in so far as they are a Metropolis of the Patriarchate of Moscow they are a canonical organization, but uncanonically operating beyond the boarders of the Church of Russia; any claim of jursidiction in America by the Metropolia is an attempt to usurp the authority of the Great Church of Christ who alone has Jurisdiction in the Americas. Furthermore, considering the blatant insult and disregard to the canons and traditions of the Church the metropolia represents I would say that the Great Church of Christ is more than generous in her dealings with said Metropolis and their Patriarch in Moscow.
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« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2006, 01:26:07 AM »

I think that this is the answer to anyone that implies that EP tried to impose cultural and political goals to the lands under its derestiction as other churches tried unfortunately to do later.Today rusians speak rusian serbs croatoserbian bulgarians bulgarian etc.I think that this is the greatest proof that EP never tried to impose anythink to anyone.The impartial and strictly religious policy that the Great church of crist follow in its history is the reason that unfortunatelyÂÂ  many christians call ourÂÂ  Ecumenical Patriarch, Greek, Romean, Turk, and only God knows what ever else.
TY.I am sorry for any verbal mistake I have madeÂÂ  Lips SealedÂÂ  Cheesy

Very good point. Even following Constantinople 1872 the Oecumenical Throne did not try to impose Greek Culture or Language on the Bulgarian Parishes in Constantinople, these parishes were allowed to keep their Culture and Language, the Great Church of Christ only reasserted the ancient principle of geographical, rather than ethnic, ecclesiastical boundaries.
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« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2006, 01:54:50 AM »

... any claim of jursidiction in America by the Metropolia is an attempt to usurp the authority of the Great Church of Christ who alone has Jurisdiction in the Americas.

This is not clear by any means.  The Russian Church has a good claim to being the one to decide on governance in the Americas, since they were the ones who first evangelised the continent, and the ones who everyone,without exception, acknowledged to be the Church in America before the tragedy of the Russian Revolution called this into question.  Moreover, before 1867, Alaska was Russian territory, not American at all.  Not that I really care about this part of the argument.  Just in case you hadn't heard, there's no such thing as a "supreme pontiff" in Orthodoxy.  Also, there is no "mystical power" associated with any one bishop or any one see.  If I were to be ordained by the bishop of a place like "Nichevo", Russia, my priestly status would be no different from that of a priest ordained by the Ecumenical Patriarch.  I'm sure someone of your intellect is able to look at sensible argument in a rational way should you choose to.  Supreme executive power is derived from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
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« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2006, 02:59:06 AM »

This is not clear by any means.ÂÂ  The Russian Church has a good claim to being the one to decide on governance in the Americas, since they were the ones who first evangelised the continent, and the ones who everyone,without exception, acknowledged to be the Church in America before the tragedy of the Russian Revolution called this into question.ÂÂ  Moreover, before 1867, Alaska was Russian territory, not American at all.

While Alaska may have been Russian Territory in the decades before 1867 it was not part of the Russian state in the late 1500's when the boundaries of the Patriarchate of Moscow were drawn; boundaries that are determined by the Oecumenical Throne (as she has ultimate authority over all Russian Territory as granted to her by the Fourth Oecumenical Synod, making the transfer or revocation of these rights possible only with another Oecumenical Synod) not by the Russian state. Thus while Alaska may have been part of the Russian empire, it was never properly under the Patriarchate of Moscow (whose boundaries do not expand with those of the Russian state).

While Constantinople may have allowed Moscow to administer certain parishes within her jurisdiction (or, more likely, thought the issue to be too insignificant to risk a rupture in relations over) at one point in time there is no evidence that she ever intended to relinquish her ancient and canonical rights. Furthermore, without the approval of an Oecumenical Synod summoned by Imperial Authority it is technically not possible for her to fully relinquish these rights. What is, however, clear is that the Great Church of Christ is presently reasserting these rights, rights granted by an Oecumenical Synod; thus, these rights are absolute unless another Synod of equal (or greater, if that were possible) authority, that is to say another Oecumenical Synod, were to overturn them.

Because of the weight Canons of Oecumenical Synods have in the Orthodox Church and the fact that Russia's own Autocephaly is dependent only on an Endimousa Synod it is clear that Russia doesn't have a leg to stand on when arguing against Constantinople on territorial matters; even the continued Autocephaly of the Church of Moscow is subject to the good will of Constantinople since Constantinople has rights over that land by Chalcedon 28 (and Oecumenical Synod) and Russia has autocephaly by an Endimousa Synod...if there was ever a dispute on this manner Constantinople would inherently be in the right because the decisions of an Endimousa Synod cannot be even compared to those of an Oecumenical Synod.

Quote
Not that I really care about this part of the argument.ÂÂ  Just in case you hadn't heard, there's no such thing as a "supreme pontiff" in Orthodoxy.ÂÂ  Also, there is no "mystical power" associated with any one bishop or any one see.ÂÂ  If I were to be ordained by the bishop of a place like "Nichevo", Russia, my priestly status would be no different from that of a priest ordained by the Ecumenical Patriarch.ÂÂ  I'm sure someone of your intellect is able to look at sensible argument in a rational way should you choose to.ÂÂ  Supreme executive power is derived from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

There may not be some special 'mystical power' associated with a certain episcopal see, and I have never claimed that there is. What I have claimed is that there are certain sees (infact the dyptics offer a listing in order) that have greater honour and authority within the earthly institution of the Church and I have also claimed that the earthly institution of the Church is just as important and significant as the 'mysical' and heavenly metaphysical part of the Church.
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« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2006, 03:28:55 AM »

While Alaska may have been Russian Territory in the decades before 1867 it was not part of the Russian state in the late 1500's when the boundaries of the Patriarchate of Moscow were drawn; boundaries that are determined by the Oecumenical Throne (as she has ultimate authority over all Russian Territory as granted to her by the Fourth Oecumenical Synod, making the transfer or revocation of these rights possible only with another Oecumenical Synod) not by the Russian state. Thus while Alaska may have been part of the Russian empire, it was never properly under the Patriarchate of Moscow (whose boundaries do not expand with those of the Russian state).
Completely hypothetical and a useless academic discussion.  I'll believe any of this "relinquishing" when it happens.

While Constantinople may have allowed Moscow to administer certain parishes within her jurisdiction (or, more likely, thought the issue to be too insignificant to risk a rupture in relations over) at one point in time there is no evidence that she ever intended to relinquish her ancient and canonical rights.
Again, see above comment.  Please give some examples where the Ecumenical Throne had any capability at these times to "allow" anything.  History demonstrates that the EP was utterly INcapable.  The EP should be repentent for their own failings during this time period and gracious for the evangelizing that the MP did.

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« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2006, 07:33:20 AM »

The EP should be repentent for their own failings during this time period and gracious for the evangelizing that the MP did.
Tell me, is this how the MP did such a great job at evangelizing you? Did the MP teach you to treat your persecuted bretheren in Constantinople like something you wiped off your shoe? Is this what it means to be a "Christian"? "By this all men shall know that you are My disciples, that you love one another."
Oh great Elisha, wise counsel and judge of Bishops, when thou hast, for five hundred years, resisted oppression and refused to leave your home town despite threats, persecution and oppression, then thou mayest have a bit more credibility in thy pronouncements.
May I reccomend a book for you: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=9484.msg127415#msg127415
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« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2006, 09:28:35 AM »

Tell me, is this how the MP did such a great job at evangelizing you? Did the MP teach you to treat your persecuted bretheren in Constantinople like something you wiped off your shoe? Is this what it means to be a "Christian"? "By this all men shall know that you are My disciples, that you love one another."
Oh great Elisha, wise counsel and judge of Bishops, when thou hast, for five hundred years, resisted oppression and refused to leave your home town despite threats, persecution and oppression, then thou mayest have a bit more credibility in thy pronouncements.
May I reccomend a book for you: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=9484.msg127415#msg127415

Okay, then lets get down to it, why can't the EP move? The majority of his rule is composed of churches located in America, so why should he stay in a non christian territory? He's staying there for the 2000 people that are still christian?

As for the EPs rule over the american churches, I pulled this paragraph from the website of the Ecumenical Patriarchate:

  The adjective “barbarian” defines the noun “nations”, which is omitted from the text of the canon, but which is to be inferred, as Zonaras interprets it[9]. Barbarian nations or countries are, as has been said, those provinces which lay beyond the Roman Empire at the time of the 4th Ecumenical Synod: “While it called bishoprics of the barbarians those of Alania, Russia and others
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« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2006, 09:54:54 AM »

Okay, then lets get down to it, why can't the EP move? The majority of his rule is composed of churches located in America, so why should he stay in a non christian territory? He's staying there for the 2000 people that are still christian?
This question has been brought up here several times over the years. It is a good one to re-air. While there is precedent for the EP moving temporarily (1204-1261), this EP or any other will not desert his see. Period. He has already stated that, surrounded by a sea of Islam, he must stay and be the beacon of Truth. That to leave would send the wrong message - that they have won, and we are wrong. I support him. It may seem sacrificial (and I would love to see him in NYC) but his flock is his flock - including northern Greek dioceses and I think even Crete not to mention some Greek islands. As to his flock in Turkey itself - purportedly <3000 in the City - every once in a while someone relates the existence of 'closet Christians in modern Turkey, even in those 'phantom' dioceses. I can't say. BUT, shortly after 1461 when Trebizond fell, the Laz people (non-Greeks related to Georgians)  supposedly converted en mass to Islam. Any research into ethnicity that I've read says ALL Laz are moslem and have been so since the 15th century. Turkey loves to cover over the ethnic backgrounds of its various peoples calling them Turks if they are moslems. I am 1/8 Laz (from Lazika, now Lazistan) and I well remember my great grandmother and her Orthodox prayer book ( the only thing she read, daily)> She was Greek Orthodox, a person who did not officially exist and she was apparently not the only one.
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« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2006, 10:20:50 AM »

Okay, then lets get down to it, why can't the EP move? The majority of his rule is composed of churches located in America, so why should he stay in a non christian territory? He's staying there for the 2000 people that are still christian?

As for the EPs rule over the american churches, I pulled this paragraph from the website of the Ecumenical Patriarchate:

ÂÂ  The adjective “barbarian” defines the noun “nations”, which is omitted from the text of the canon, but which is to be inferred, as Zonaras interprets it[9]. Barbarian nations or countries are, as has been said, those provinces which lay beyond the Roman Empire at the time of the 4th Ecumenical Synod: “While it called bishoprics of the barbarians those of Alania, Russia and others

I fear I do not understand your reading of the commentary at hand. No one said that Barbarian Lands consist of all KNOWN territories beyond the boarders of the Empire in 451, infact if a land is not even known to the Empire how much more a barbarian land it must be than those that sat upon the boarders of the Empire. The fact is that ALL Barbarian Lands as of Chalcedon, that is to say ALL Lands beyond the boarders of the Empire in 451, are under the Jurisdiction of Constantinople...in Chalcedon 28 I really dont see any exception for Barbarian Lands that had not yet been discovered.
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« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2006, 10:27:16 AM »

Okay, then lets get down to it, why can't the EP move? The majority of his rule is composed of churches located in America, so why should he stay in a non christian territory? He's staying there for the 2000 people that are still christian?

Which majority of his rule? he is not a ruler.. He is the EP of ORTHODOXY. And No matter if his parish ihas 5 people or 100.000.000 he is the EP, and that throne has been there way before Turkish existed, before America was found, before the appearance of the Russian and other slavic brothers of ours, its been there for 1600+ years...

He is there carrying that tradition, he is one of the last things that remain from the Orthodox past of the City. he "gaurds the thermopulae" of Orthodoxy.

And he is staying there, like it or not, until he is the last one. If Turkey succeeds with its ethnic policy and lets say the Church of Konstantinople falls, the Patriarch will fall like its last Empreror.

But i dont think the Lord will let this happend twice.

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« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2006, 10:29:46 AM »

Completely hypothetical and a useless academic discussion.

This is often the nature of the discipline of Canon Law. But the discussion is significant for it demonstrates that when there is a break in communion between Constantinople and Moscow it is Moscow that Schisms against Constantinople and not the other way arround. And that if, heaven forbid, there is ever a permanente rupture in communion then it is manifest that it would be Moscow who would be in disobedience and thus this rupture in communion would be tantamount to Moscow leaving the Christian Church. Considering the political climate between Moscow and the Great Church of Christ, it is prudent to consider such possibilities.

Quote
I'll believe any of this "relinquishing" when it happens.
Again, see above comment.ÂÂ  Please give some examples where the Ecumenical Throne had any capability at these times to "allow" anything.ÂÂ  History demonstrates that the EP was utterly INcapable.ÂÂ  The EP should be repentent for their own failings during this time period and gracious for the evangelizing that the MP did.

During the 19th Centuries the failings of Constantinople were because the forces of Nationalism were too strong to undermine, though the Oecumenical Throne did her best and in the 20th Century has even made some progress in reversing the damage to the Church caused by the Nationalists. Moscow was amongst the worst offenders during this era, but the Great Church of Christ has, as a mother should towards her daughter, worked with love and care to correct these problems and help heal the damage that Nationalism has done in Russia and arround the world.
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« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2006, 10:30:12 AM »

someone asked why the EP doesnt give autokephalous status to OCA:

Byzantine response to OCA autocephaly

http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_response_to_OCA_autocephaly
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« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2006, 11:26:12 AM »

This is often the nature of the discipline of Canon Law. But the discussion is significant for it demonstrates that when there is a break in communion between Constantinople and Moscow it is Moscow that Schisms against Constantinople and not the other way arround. And that if, heaven forbid, there is ever a permanente rupture in communion then it is manifest that it would be Moscow who would be in disobedience and thus this rupture in communion would be tantamount to Moscow leaving the Christian Church. Considering the political climate between Moscow and the Great Church of Christ, it is prudent to consider such possibilities.


When the EP supported the "Living Church" following the Russian Revolution, had the Russian Church left the Church of Christ, or had the EP supported heretical schismatics?

Also, if you want to talk about who stood up for whom at what point in history, you won't find much of a stand taken by the EP to support those who suffered under Russian Communism.
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« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2006, 12:21:25 PM »

Tell me, is this how the MP did such a great job at evangelizing you? Did the MP teach you to treat your persecuted bretheren in Constantinople like something you wiped off your shoe?
The MP didn't "evangelize" me.  I was brought into Holy Orthodoxy about 20 years ago now under the Omophorion of His Beatitude Metropolitan Phillip.  I have been attending an OCA parish for around 10 of those years though now.

Oh great Elisha, wise counsel and judge of Bishops, when thou hast, for five hundred years, resisted oppression and refused to leave your home town despite threats, persecution and oppression, then thou mayest have a bit more credibility in thy pronouncements.
And most of GiC's "pronouncements" don't sound haughty?  I'd say that his most recent response is one of few exceptions, refreshingly.
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« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2006, 05:41:13 PM »

And most of GiC's "pronouncements" don't sound haughty?  I'd say that his most recent response is one of few exceptions, refreshingly.
This isn't about GiC or even about haughtiness. This is about how we as Orthodox Christians relate to one another in the Church. 10 years in the OCA obviously still hasn't taught you that Christians love one another. In Constantinople, your brothers and sisters have been persecuted and oppressed for 500 years, and what is your "Christian" response to this? Calling them to "repentance" for "not doing their job". Would you have done the same with the martyrs in the arena as they were torn apart by the lions?
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« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2006, 06:43:41 PM »

This isn't about GiC or even about haughtiness. This is about how we as Orthodox Christians relate to one another in the Church. 10 years in the OCA obviously still hasn't taught you that Christians love one another. In Constantinople, your brothers and sisters have been persecuted and oppressed for 500 years, and what is your "Christian" response to this? Calling them to "repentance" for "not doing their job". Would you have done the same with the martyrs in the arena as they were torn apart by the lions?


Really, you're starting to sounds like our two "independent" orthodox friends...judging my "love" by a few message board posts.
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« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2006, 06:53:44 PM »

Really, you're starting to sounds like our two "independent" orthodox friends...judging my "love" by a few message board posts.

No, Elisha, if anyone resembles our two "indepenent" friends, it is those who, living in their own little insular world in their heads, presume to pass judgement on a Church which has valiantly survived more tribulation for more history than any other. You need to get off your tookas and go and visit your suffering bretheren in Constantinople before you presume to pass judgement on them as "not doing their job". And in the final analysis, Constantinople is doing a great job from a Christian perpective by its witness in the face of persecution.
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« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2006, 09:21:20 PM »

Alright, theres no need to attack each other, we can have a debate without mud slinging. The idea to get out of this whole thread is that we can see how far along we all still have to go before we can have a true Catholic and Apostolic church (I am using catholic in the dictionary term, not the Church of Rome term). If we of some knowledge of Orthodoxy who haven't really tipped the ice berg can get this worked up and agatated over this, imagine how the theologians and hierarchs who are trying to confront this matter must feel. Regardless of our opinions about this matter, this is not a problem that we are going to resolve in the near future unless alot of things change on both sides.

-Nick
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« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2006, 10:20:14 PM »

Aside from the mudslinging, this is quite a useful thread, and I'd like to chime in (if I may).ÂÂ  First off, like Nick said, the discussion can and should be had in a civilized manner.

Next, the EP (as you all know) is the first among equals and she and she alone holds that special place of honour in Orthodoxy.ÂÂ  What George says is bang on!ÂÂ  She is witnessing the faith as many of the early Church Fathers did; under great persecution.ÂÂ  Her flock is not what it once was, however that does not speak to her witness of the faith.ÂÂ  I can't imagine the notion that everytime Orthodoxy faces hardship and persecution that we should tuck tale and run.ÂÂ  If that was the motto, today, Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria would all be Islamic lands.

Further, the EP granted my Church (SOC) her autocephaly, in that regard, she will always be the "mother" Church, even though we are a fully recognized autocephalous Church, but even if she weren't why would I want to slight the Great Church.ÂÂ  In the end, how do any of us benefit from tearing each other down, rather than building each other up?

I think there needs to be some resolution to the uncanonical situation in North America, I'm not sure what the perfect solution is, but I KNOW it doesn't start with tearing each others jurisdictions down.

Just my 2 dinars!
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