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Author Topic: Daily Liturgy?  (Read 6287 times) Average Rating: 0
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Cassian
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« on: July 06, 2006, 10:02:19 AM »

I'm not sure if this is worth its own thread, but I'll throw it out for discussion anyways...

Noticing the Liturgy schedule of the Holy Orthodox Churches around me, none seem to provide daily Liturgies.  Some have vespers on Saturday, matins early Sunday morning followed by a single Divine Liturgy service.  Some only list a Divine Liturgy for Sunday. 

Is this the norm within the Orthodox Church?  Is this there a practical (attendance) reason and/or theological reason operating here?
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« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2006, 10:09:51 AM »

Is this the norm within the Orthodox Church?  Is this there a practical (attendance) reason and/or theological reason operating here?

1) In general, only monasteries or convents have Divine Liturgies every single day. In Orthodox countries, however, in which there is usually a monastery (if not many!) in every town of any size, it's not difficult for a faithful person to attend the Liturgy every morning if he should so desire.

2) In the Greek tradition, parish churches have Liturgies on any and all feast days of any significance (popular saint, historical event, despotic feast, etc.). Thus, it is typical to find Greek parishes with at least 5 to 10 week-day liturgies at different times throughout the month. In fasting periods, such as Great Lent, there are typically even more (since many have Pre-Sanctified Liturgies at least once a week in addition to the other feast-day-related celebrations).

3) Further, it is fairly typical for parish churches in Orthodox countries to have a daily cycle of prayer services (Matins and Vespers), even if they don't celebrate the Liturgy on a daily basis. This is fairly unusual in the diaspora, although it does happen.
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« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2006, 11:01:35 AM »

The point of the above being this: In Orthodox countries, one could easily attend prayer services every day (if not multiple times a day), including a Liturgy, if one so desired. In the diaspora, such is much more difficult, although most people who live near a reasonably active parish should be able to attend a variety of liturgical services in addition to those celebrated on Sunday (e.g. Matins, Vespers, week-day Divine Liturgies, Pre-Sanctified Liturgies, Paraklesis, Great Compline, Molebin, etc.), depending on the ethnic traditions and the ecclesiastical season.

As far as reasons why this is (here's some conjecture for you): The Byzantine liturgical tradition is, in general, extremely influenced by monastic practices and typika from the last 1,000 years. In such a monastic setting, one does not just celebrate the Mass by itself (which Mass takes a Catholic priest, especially if he is celebrating more-or-less by himself, 30 minutes). One needs to do AT LEAST a full Matins and possibly some other small services (if not all of the relevant hours) before one starts a full Divine Liturgy. Thus, in a monastic setting, celebrating the Liturgy on a daily basis takes AT LEAST 1.5 hours (and that's in monasteries/parishes that hurry things along quite a bit). A full and proper celebration would take more like 2.5 or 3 hours.

While there are parish priests (like St. John of Kronstadt) who do/did this every day (I believe St. John took 4 or maybe even 6 hours every day!), it is obviously something that takes a little too much time for the average parishioner, and is thus of little value to the lay community. Common people can come to worship during the week at shorter services (just Matins, or just Vespers) and can attend Divine Liturgies on holidays, where they don't have to get to work.

If they are retired or want more, they can always walk down the street to the monastery.
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« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2006, 11:10:37 AM »

I don't know of what other parishes practises are, but our ACROD parish probably has 3 to 4 Divine Liturgies per week. Father Michael only allows me to post the Sunday service on our website and I've never asked him why. Perhaps he gives himself some flexibility. They are in the weekly bulletin and are usually sponsored memorial liturgies which may explain it.

And there daily Divine Liturgies at nearby Greek and Romainian convents if I'm energetic  Wink
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« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2006, 03:34:02 PM »

In Romania, every large urban church (not even just cathedrals) has the Divine Liturgy every day.
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« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2006, 05:52:28 PM »

That's extremely informative and helpful, thank-you all.   Smiley

Unfortunately in my RCC archdiocese, there is only single parish (a very traditional but popular one) which offers a weekly vesper service.  It's a very well attended service and stupefies me as to why other parishes don't pick up on the practice.
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« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2006, 07:17:01 PM »

I'm Coptic Orthodox, there's a church in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada that I sometimes attend that has 6 priests, and so has a Liturgy every day.  My church in Kitchener, Ontario has one priest in less than perfect health, so we only have Vespers & Liturgy on Sunday, plus when there's a feast of our Lord, or a feast of a saint who has an icon in our church, or a few other important days.  Our other churches in the area fall somewhere in between those extremes.

Catholics can have a Mass with just the priest, but for Orthodox, we need to have at least one priest, at least one deacon (or lower order serving in the place of the deacon), and a congregation.  So only large churches that have a huge congregation and so can be sure that at least some people will show up on any given day for a 2.5-3 hr weekday Liturgy can have daily Liturgy.  Also, the preist have families and many responsibilites, so a church has to have several priests to have daily Liturgy.  The requirement of fasting for 9 hr before a Liturgy, especially combined with the requirment to have the Liturgy late in the day if it is a day of fasting make it even harder for people to attend, so there really has to be a lot of people to be sure someone will be there.
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« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2006, 07:36:59 PM »

6 priests definitely helps! I always wondered why our priest was so skinny...until I realized all the fasting preparation he must do to celebrate 3 liturgies a week.
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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2006, 08:01:51 PM »

You don't need a deacon to do the Eastern Orthodox Liturgy. Just a priest and congregation. A very few priests have a blessing from their bishops to celebrate alone.

Having at least Sunday Vespers was the norm in many Roman Catholic churches until the 20th century - radio helped kill it off as it did Sunday-night services in some other churches. (People stayed home and listened to the radio.)
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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2006, 09:15:50 PM »

That's extremely informative and helpful, thank-you all.  ÃƒÆ’‚ Smiley

Unfortunately in my RCC archdiocese, there is only single parish (a very traditional but popular one) which offers a weekly vesper service.ÂÂ  It's a very well attended service and stupefies me as to why other parishes don't pick up on the practice.

Im interested in the RCC vesper service. Can you describe it in detail?  Thank you.
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« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2006, 09:18:21 PM »

I'm not sure if this is worth its own thread, but I'll throw it out for discussion anyways...

Noticing the Liturgy schedule of the Holy Orthodox Churches around me, none seem to provide daily Liturgies.ÂÂ  Some have vespers on Saturday, matins early Sunday morning followed by a single Divine Liturgy service.ÂÂ  Some only list a Divine Liturgy for Sunday.ÂÂ  

Is this the norm within the Orthodox Church?ÂÂ  Is this there a practical (attendance) reason and/or theological reason operating here?

Im not sure if daily Mass as we know it today was a norm in the early centuries of the church.  I always believed that daily Mass came into practice within the last few hundred years.
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« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2006, 12:02:16 AM »

Just speculating here, but another reason why daily liturgies are probably not common in Orthodox parishes is that the priest is supposed to refrain from sexual intercourse with his wife the night before.  If there were liturgies every day...well you get the drift.

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« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2006, 12:24:27 AM »

You don't need a deacon to do the Eastern Orthodox Liturgy. Just a priest and congregation. A very few priests have a blessing from their bishops to celebrate alone.

Having at least Sunday Vespers was the norm in many Roman Catholic churches until the 20th century - radio helped kill it off as it did Sunday-night services in some other churches. (People stayed home and listened to the radio.)
Thats interesting about the radio and such taking away from out time with family and for faith...as for deacons and liturgy, I've talked this over in great lengths with some Copts I know. Their "deacons" are both chanters and altar boys at the same time as well as filling the role of sub-deacon and deacon at time, even though they only get tonsured wih the name "chanter" then "agnostos" ie. greek borrow word: reader. This means that on a typical sunday, you'd see like 20 "deacons" standing in front of the iconostasis, both old men and little boys acting as the chanters. Then theres another 5-10 guys serving at the altar. But get this- they are allowed to chant certain litanies...imagine a 10 year old altar boy at the altar raising his stole and chanting "in peace let us pray to the Lord" even though he's not even a sub-deacon. Instead of raising the stole during litanies, the Copts raise a small metal hand cross.

In our (greek) parish and in most orthodox parishes, the priest would have a heart atack if you touched the altar, the gospel, or other things on the altar and one must always walk behind the altar...I've noticed that in most Coptic churches, the altar boys freely placed and removed things off and onto the altar such as the gospel, cross, and after liturgy, the chalice and paten. Walking in front of the altar is almost part of their tradition as the altar boys receive communion right AT the altar where the priest presides, although when I asked a priest about it he said that officially, they shouldn't.

Either they know that they are allowing altar boys to act as "deacons" which in my mind is somewhat scary as that seems like a lay person acting as a deacon, or they don't know that there is an (historic) difference between altar serving and the diaconate.

One more thing...A Romanian friend of mine has some young boys. I sggested that they serve at the altar in his parish. He didn't really have a clue as to what I was saying and told me he's never seen altar boys in Romanian parishes, a very interesting tradition as I assumed all orthodox (and catholic) traditions had some sort of altar servers.
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« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2006, 03:29:40 AM »

They do, but traditionally they are men. The fewer the better, and the more ordained as subdeacons, the better as well. Where those are few adn far between here, we went to younger and younger boys as a form of training, since in many other ways they have no access to liturgical training.
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« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2006, 09:02:43 AM »

My Parish  has  daily Orthos and Vespers , the Divine Liturgy is served every Sunday and on Major Feast days (and upon request to our priest).  Many people who can not make it to the daily services send their commemorations and needs to our Priest or the Reader who assists him in the daily services ---it is a blessing to know that even when I am at work, my family and our needs are being prayed for at the Holy Altar by our priest and members of our Parish.

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« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2006, 03:15:45 PM »

Thats interesting about the radio and such taking away from out time with family and for faith...as for deacons and liturgy, I've talked this over in great lengths with some Copts I know. Their "deacons" are both chanters and altar boys at the same time as well as filling the role of sub-deacon and deacon at time, even though they only get tonsured wih the name "chanter" then "agnostos" ie. greek borrow word: reader. This means that on a typical sunday, you'd see like 20 "deacons" standing in front of the iconostasis, both old men and little boys acting as the chanters. Then theres another 5-10 guys serving at the altar. But get this- they are allowed to chant certain litanies...imagine a 10 year old altar boy at the altar raising his stole and chanting "in peace let us pray to the Lord" even though he's not even a sub-deacon. Instead of raising the stole during litanies, the Copts raise a small metal hand cross.

In our (greek) parish and in most orthodox parishes, the priest would have a heart atack if you touched the altar, the gospel, or other things on the altar and one must always walk behind the altar...I've noticed that in most Coptic churches, the altar boys freely placed and removed things off and onto the altar such as the gospel, cross, and after liturgy, the chalice and paten. Walking in front of the altar is almost part of their tradition as the altar boys receive communion right AT the altar where the priest presides, although when I asked a priest about it he said that officially, they shouldn't.

Either they know that they are allowing altar boys to act as "deacons" which in my mind is somewhat scary as that seems like a lay person acting as a deacon, or they don't know that there is an (historic) difference between altar serving and the diaconate.

One more thing...A Romanian friend of mine has some young boys. I sggested that they serve at the altar in his parish. He didn't really have a clue as to what I was saying and told me he's never seen altar boys in Romanian parishes, a very interesting tradition as I assumed all orthodox (and catholic) traditions had some sort of altar servers.

Our cannons require that a deacon must serve at the Liturgy, the priest cannot do it alone.  The cannons also allow that if there is no deacon available a subdeacon can take the place of a deacon (but this shouldn't be the norm).  For some reason, I really don't know why, the Holy Synod gave permission for chanters and readers to serve as deacons in the absense of a deacon or subdeacon, and this has become the norm, just as you describe.  I personally wish this wasn't the case, the disrespect that comes from this practice really gets to me sometimes, but who am I to question the decision of my bishops?

At least things are getting a little better... Not long ago no one knew the difference between a chanter and a reader, and every 6 yr old kid was ordained a reader!  There is even one person at my church who was ordained a subdeacon at age 7.  Now (at least as far as I can see) children are only ordained chanters, and never readers.   Strictly speaking no one under the age of 18 should be made a reader, and certainly not a subdeacon.  Unfortunately people still wear reader's stoles even though they're only chanters, and the roles of the two orders are almost completely muddled (readers give sermons while chanters do not, but chanters do almost everything else readers should do, such as reading the Gospel).  I personally hope that the orders continue to become more, well, orderly!

I'm curious though, how do the Eastern Orthodox have Liturgy without a deacon?  Are the deacon's parts just omitted?  Is this the norm?  It seems strange, that deacons are so a part of the Liturgy, but have become so rare in both traditions...And two different 'solutions' have been chosen, one going on without the deacon despite their important role, and the other allowing the minor orders to take the place of deacons.  Or am I wrong, is the Eastern Orthodox approach something else?  What do your altar servers do?
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« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2006, 03:29:49 PM »

I'm curious though, how do the Eastern Orthodox have Liturgy without a deacon?ÂÂ  Are the deacon's parts just omitted?ÂÂ  Is this the norm?ÂÂ  It seems strange, that deacons are so a part of the Liturgy, but have become so rare in both traditions...And two different 'solutions' have been chosen, one going on without the deacon despite their important role, and the other allowing the minor orders to take the place of deacons.ÂÂ  Or am I wrong, is the Eastern Orthodox approach something else?ÂÂ  What do your altar servers do?

Since every presbyter (or bishop) has been ordained to the priestly level of deacon, he is able to perform the liturgical functions of that lower order of priesthood if such should be necessary. Thus, in parishes where there are never any deacon (which means MOST parishes in the diaspora most of the time), the presbyter simply intones the petitions from within the sanctuary. He does not, however, wear the deacon's vestments or intone the petitions from the same place as the deacon, or in the same way.

The universal canons of the Church stipulate that a presbyter cannot celebrate the Eucharist alone, but they make no further stipulation (i.e. there must also be person X or officeholder Y). (I wonder if the Coptic canons actually stipulate there must be a deacon, and, if so, when this canon was promulgated.) The ancient requirement is simply that there be AT LEAST one other baptized Orthodox Christian in good standing attending the Liturgy. This person, then, may do whatever part of the Liturgy they are qualified to do, depending on their "position" in the Church (i.e. whether or not they have been ordained or tonsured to a particular office). In some cases, that may be as simple as responding to the presbyter with an "Amen."
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« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2006, 03:46:18 PM »

Since every presbyter (or bishop) has been ordained to the priestly level of deacon, he is able to perform the liturgical functions of that lower order of priesthood if such should be necessary. Thus, in parishes where there are never any deacon (which means MOST parishes in the diaspora most of the time), the presbyter simply intones the petitions from within the sanctuary. He does not, however, wear the deacon's vestments or intone the petitions from the same place as the deacon, or in the same way.

The universal canons of the Church stipulate that a presbyter cannot celebrate the Eucharist alone, but they make no further stipulation (i.e. there must also be person X or officeholder Y). (I wonder if the Coptic canons actually stipulate there must be a deacon, and, if so, when this canon was promulgated.) The ancient requirement is simply that there be AT LEAST one other baptized Orthodox Christian in good standing attending the Liturgy. This person, then, may do whatever part of the Liturgy they are qualified to do, depending on their "position" in the Church (i.e. whether or not they have been ordained or tonsured to a particular office). In some cases, that may be as simple as responding to the presbyter with an "Amen."

Yes, the Coptic cannons require at least a priest, a deacon, and a congregation... I think the requirement of a deacon is ancient and goes back at least to the time of St. Athanasius, but I could be wrong... I didn't realize that it was only a Coptic thing and not an Orthodox thing.  Thanks for the information.  I imagine that a priest could serve as a deacon in our tradition too since of course they don't lose the privlidges of the orders below them, but for us it couldn't be the same priest that's serving as the priest... and I've never heard of this actually happening.  I've been at a Liturgy with 5 priests present, one celebrating and 4 concelebrating, and still all the deacons parts were said by chanters.  I'll bet if they tried to take the role of deacons away from chanters and readers there'd be an uprising of people with their honour offeneded feeling their rights have been infringed... so much for deacon meaning servant.

If the priest does the deacon's parts... what do altar boys do?  Or is the priest just in the sanctuary by himself?
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« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2006, 04:14:04 PM »

If the priest does the deacon's parts...

Just so we are clear: IF (and I stress IF) there is no deacon, then the priest intones (chants/says) whatever parts of the Divine Liturgy are usually reserved for the deacons (e.g. intoning the petitions, saying "let us attend," chanting the Gospel reading, etc.). The priest, however, does not DO the deacon's part, i.e. he doesn't follow the rubrics that exist for the deacons (e.g. go out of the north deacon's door, stand on the solea, hold up the orarion, and intone the petitions). Dig? It's just a matter of having someone to say/sing certain necessary parts of the Liturgy (e.g. the Gospel!), and, in our tradition, one must hold at least the office of deacon in order to chant the parts reserved for the deacon.

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what do altar boys do?ÂÂ  Or is the priest just in the sanctuary by himself?

First of all, there is no ecclesiastical office of "altar boy" -- not in the ancient Church, not in the medieval Church, not in the modern Church. Having "altar boys" is a Roman Catholic/Anglican tradition which several Orthodox Churches have adopted because it's convenient, even though we still don't have an actual church office called "altar boy," nor do we have a liturgical blessing for the entry into such an office (since it doesn't exist!). Some Churches use the service for the tonsuring of a Reader and pretend that such is a suitable ecclesiastical blessing for new altar boys (the reasoning for this -- if one can call it reasoning -- is that the Reader is the lowest "minor order" of clergy).

Thus, altar boys do not do anything reserved for ordained clergy at any time. In reality, they are like an ecclesiarch. They make sure candles are lit, bread is cut, the censer has incense, etc. Of course, we've also assigned them some quasi-liturgical duties (which come, perhaps, from the Byzantine processional liturgies), such as carrying candles in processions.
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« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2006, 01:44:44 AM »

Great that in Romania daily services are possible in so many places. In some other Orthodox countries, daily Liturgies are a norm for Cathedrals. Of course, these Cathedrals have more then 1 priest. Sometimes 6 - 8 or cany be even more. When I just moved to USA, for me it seemed so unusual that a pastor of a cathedral can be the only priest there. Actually, looks like chances, that a cathedral or a large parish in a diaspora may have an assistant priest or a deacon, or even both improved in last 10 years.
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« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2006, 08:00:06 AM »

I'm interested in the RCC vesper service. Can you describe it in detail?ÂÂ  Thank you.

Sure Joe,

The service follows the vespers format (now called evening prayer post VII) from the 1976 revised Divine Office in the RC rite.ÂÂ  The order of the service are psalms, a reading from the Epistles, Mary's Manificant from Luke, set specific intercessions for the day, the Lord's prayer, and a closing prayer.ÂÂ  

The congregation is usually divided into two groups and they alternate reciting stanzas from the above readings.ÂÂ  Benediction usually follows evening prayers.
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« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2006, 01:35:11 PM »

I think the sexual-abstinence requirement may have something to do with the absence of a daily Liturgy in most Orthodox churches...

Like the joke I heard ages ago in England at a church-themed Christmas panto: 'Ah, yes, Fr Smith was strict - 24-hour fast before Communion. And we had a daily Mass.'

But I think a main reason is in the West you had the custom evolve in the Middle Ages of private Masses, votive Masses offered for various intentions. (Which in the East only went as far as the prosphora lists for the quick and the dead every Sunday?). The East retained the piety of the early church - one Liturgy per day at one altar, instead of a proliferation of altars and Masses per church per day. So in the parishes you had it once on Sunday and big feast-days and that was that. And still do.

Thanks for the explanation of the difference between Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox common use of the word 'deacon'.

Vespers in the Roman Catholic Church is pretty much as described.

The traditional pre-Vatican II version has five psalms, a very short reading, verses and responses (a bit like stichera but shorter), the Magnificat and a collect (closing prayer). And often has Benediction afterwards but that's not necessary. No litany/intercessions, which are often hokey and platitudinous, either pious rhetoric or sounding like the platform of a liberal political party (or a beauty-pageant contestant), about working for justice and peace, etc. (Not the gravitas of the Orthodox litanies.)

'Evening Prayer' is a 450-year-old Anglican translation of the term for a nice service of theirs that simplifies and combines Vespers and Compline.

(Western Rite Orthodox, who belong to the Antiochian Church or ROCOR, use both of these - the old RC Vespers and Anglican Evening Prayer. The ROCOR WRO, most of whom are Benedictine monks in one abbey, use the old monastic breviary and not the Roman or secular breviary - the order of the psalms is different; I think St Benedict himself came up with the monastic version.)

The recent re-branding seems pointless, for its own sake. (I think in Spanish it's still Vespertinas or something like that.) Like they're ashamed of their heritage or something. Happily one doesn't see that 'self-hating' attitude much among the Orthodox. For example, they're not going to throw out the terms Orthros, Vladyka or Saidna anytime soon if ever.
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« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2006, 09:04:42 PM »

The young fogey wrote:
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The recent re-branding seems pointless, for its own sake. (I think in Spanish it's still Vespertinas or something like that.) Like they're ashamed of their heritage or something.


Nah, it's because our modernist bishops thought terms like lauds, vespers, compline, etc. where too tough for their dumb sheep to handle...  Wink
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« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2006, 09:17:48 PM »

In the WRV in the Antiochian jurisdiction, you only need a celebrant and one other person for him to administer communion to.  Is that not the case in the rest of the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2006, 09:33:59 PM »

Nah, it's because our modernist bishops thought terms like lauds, vespers, compline, etc. where too tough for their dumb sheep to handle...  Wink

That's also true.
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« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2006, 12:09:01 AM »

Jonathan, what pensa said seems very historically correct and these are just my 2 cents on it...

In the Coptic church,readers/chanters do may deacon roles including reading the gospel. We have one tonsured reader at my church and the priest would have a heart attack if he went to the pulpit and even thought of reading the gospel. Actually, the very area of the pulpit and area right in front of the altar is completely out of bounds for anyone under the role of deacon.

Eastern Orthodox altar boys dress as subdeacons but never deacons (ie. they wear the stole coming down both shoulders- whereas ordained deacons wear the stole hanging down one shoulder in the front and the back as I've seen coptic readers/chanters wear interchangeably).

Technically I'm not supposed to read the epistle, but being the altar server, the bishop realizes that if a parish doesn't have a tonsured reader/sub deacon, the epistle still must be read, so the task is given to the altar boy. In some cases, when the altar boys are too young or for whatever reason could not read the epistle, the task was given to a young lady with a clear, loud voice, who was dressed in a black rasso (ie. black flowing outer "church garment" and sometimes a veil), she read the epistle- which of course at first scandalized some of the people.

As for what altar servers do, they light the oil and wax candles, light the censer, cut the bread (in coptic parishes I've seen the priest cut the bread as he's giving it to the people at the end of liturgy-to make it easier, most Eastern Orthodox priests have the bread cut during the matins service (orthros) by an altar boy, usher, or lady of the church society (philoptochos). During the liturgy, the altar boys stand around the altar and pass things like the censer to the priest, and walk around the church during processions with the cross, icons, fans, censer, candles. Also, when there is a memorial for someone who has passed away, they make sure that the priest gets the names of the people, as well as the donation and offering such as sweetened bread/ sweetened wheat. Of course clean-up time is also part of the altar servers' job.
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« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2006, 11:17:51 PM »

The young fogey wrote:

Nah, it's because our modernist bishops thought terms like lauds, vespers, compline, etc. where too tough for their dumb sheep to handle...ÂÂ  Wink

That was not very nice to say, and your personal opinion I would venture to guess. Sad
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« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2006, 09:45:08 AM »

That was not very nice to say, and your personal opinion I would venture to guess. Sad

True on all counts. 

I make no apologies though after watching the debate at the U.S. Catholic Bishops' Conference over the dumbed down addendums many bishops felt where needed to be added to the Liturgiam Authenticam revisions for the sheep in the pews.  The sooner these aging modernist left overs from the 60's and 70's retire and the JPII generation gains full control of the Roman Church the better.
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« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2006, 10:09:45 AM »

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No litany/intercessions, which are often hokey and platitudinous, either pious rhetoric or sounding like the platform of a liberal political party (or a beauty-pageant contestant), about working for justice and peace, etc. (Not the gravitas of the Orthodox litanies.)

Hey, what about the preces? (Which can be found here, along with the rest of the basic framework of Roman-rite vespers. They have a penitential character, and are only said in Advent and Lent, and on a few other days.)
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« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2006, 10:11:51 AM »

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Hey, what about the preces?

Thanks for reminding me.
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« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2006, 11:10:31 AM »

The young fogey wrote:

Nah, it's because our modernist bishops thought terms like lauds, vespers, compline, etc. where too tough for their dumb sheep to handle...ÂÂ  Wink

Dear Cassian,

I am not sure what Arch you are in, but if you are in the greater Chicago area I think you might like to check this parish:
www.cantius.org

They even have Greek and Latin classes. But look at their devotional/mass schedule and you will see it is a bit beefier than most.
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« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2006, 03:48:29 PM »

Thank-you, Dismus.  I do viist Chicago every now and then.  I will certainly make a visit to St. Cantius the next time I'm in town. 

I actually drove though the city on I-94 (Skyline?) over the 4th..  I noticed a lot of beuatiful Churches along the way that could be seen from the interstate.    Smiley
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« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2006, 06:02:26 PM »

Dear Cassian,
No need to thank me. I pray that you get all the help you need in your quest.
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« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2006, 01:21:37 PM »

I used to serve as an altar servant (ponomary) in the holy monastery of (new) Valaam (Valamo) in Finland in the 80´s, when they still had daily Liturgy. Now it´s three times in a week. This only Finnish monk monastery was the only place in Finland, where they used to celebrate the daily eucharist...
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« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2006, 02:01:36 PM »

I used to serve as an altar servant (ponomary) in the holy monastery of (new) Valaam (Valamo) in Finland in the 80´s, when they still had daily Liturgy. Now it´s three times in a week. This only Finnish monk monastery was the only place in Finland, where they used to celebrate the daily eucharist...

Wow. This is amazing. My "sisu" (sp?) aiti will want to hear about this!
She is convinced that the Orthodox church has left Finland off their radar.
I never knew about this.
She said she won't read about anything Orthodox believe in until they print it in Finnish. (I know...silly-but- bear in mind she is a JW)
I am really interested in finding any links I can send her that are in Finnish since she promised she would read them if they existed.
I don't know any finnish so trying to find anything is impossible for me.
Glad to hear your story.
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« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2006, 03:26:37 PM »

Maybe you could translate this for her? "The Orthodox faith can be considered the earliest form of Christianity to arrive in Finland"...

http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=25813

In English but an official government site.
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« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2006, 03:55:22 PM »

Sisu äidille:
"Ortodoksista uskoa voidaan pitää varhaisinpana muotona Suomeen saapuneesta kristillisyydestä."
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« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2006, 05:09:11 PM »

Kiitos!   Smiley
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« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2006, 06:15:10 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9450.msg127646#msg127646 date=1152732397]
Maybe you could translate this for her? "The Orthodox faith can be considered the earliest form of Christianity to arrive in Finland"...

http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=25813

In English but an official government site.
[/quote]

Thanks!!!
I have gotten more help here at this forum than anywhere else!!
Sad, but I am so happy to know all of you!!
Thank you again!
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« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2006, 06:18:44 PM »

Sisu äidille:
"Ortodoksista uskoa voidaan pitää varhaisinpana muotona Suomeen saapuneesta kristillisyydestä."

I will print this and send it to my mother- you guys are great!!

If this leads to her conversion from the JW cult......
You will have saved a family!
I know, wishful thinking on my part...but I have prayed and prayed for this for so long...so many years....
Wow. This is such a happy day for me.
No accident that I stumbled into this forum I can see. Not at all.
Even if nothing happens w/her- I am so happy Finland has an Orthodox presence!!!
How wonderful.
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« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2006, 08:12:57 PM »

i visited the "Valamo-Orthodox Monastery"  in april as i had a business trip in finland. And the monastery was only 30-40 mins from where i was staying!

Very nice, very hospitable people! As i visited the monastery as a part of a group (most of them american, british, and skandinavian, did not know much or any about orthodoxy) as soon as we arived i felt at home!! it was nice.



anyway Finland is a beutiful country and the people are very very nice. And look alotÂÂ  better than their singers who won the EurovisionÂÂ  GrinÂÂ  GrinÂÂ  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 08:17:57 PM by vasilisl » Logged

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« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2006, 09:26:57 PM »

Or their President who looks like Conan O'Brien! Smiley Smiley

P.S. My mom looked OK.
She was one of the Australian Army's Pin up girls before my Dad married her and took her away from that fast lifestyle....

She also was in their version of Playboy- Pix? can't remember.
But she was a hottie I guess. Yuck.. The thought of it. Embarrassed


Too bad he  my dad left the RCC. I would not have to be worrying about her JW thing if he had. An altogether different problem... :'(

I look like my Dad. No breaks in life....
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« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2006, 04:21:09 AM »

Wow. This is amazing. My "sisu" (sp?) aiti will want to hear about this!
She is convinced that the Orthodox church has left Finland off their radar.
I never knew about this.
She said she won't read about anything Orthodox believe in until they print it in Finnish. (I know...silly-but- bear in mind she is a JW)
I am really interested in finding any links I can send her that are in Finnish since she promised she would read them if they existed.
I don't know any finnish so trying to find anything is impossible for me.
Glad to hear your story.

The Orthodox church has left Finland off their radar? I don't know what she means by that, but although the Orthodox are just a small minority in Finland, the Orthodox church enjoys the status of a state church (along with the Lutheran church) because of its long traditions in the country, everyone is taught som basic things about Orthodoxy at school and an Orthodox liturgy is broadcast on one of the main radio channels almost every Sunday, so I would not by any means say the church has left Finland off their radar, if I understand her point correctly...

There's one very good Orthodox site with a lot of information in Finnish including a discussion forum: http://www.ortodoksi.net . It's quite new but it's being developed all the time. And you could also give her the link to the official web site of the Orthodox church of Finland: http://www.ort.fi . There's also a web site of a Finnish Orthodox priest offering some more in-depth information about the Orthodox faith: http://www.tsasouna.net

There are Orthodox Christians who are former JW so there's hope for your mom, too. Smiley
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