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Author Topic: My visit to the ROCOR cathedral in San Francisco.  (Read 8706 times) Average Rating: 0
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griego catolico
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« on: July 04, 2006, 07:44:17 PM »

Hello all,

This past Sunday I visited the ROCOR cathedral of Our Lady, Joy of All Who Sorrow in San Francisco, CA where the relics of Saint John Maximovitch are enshrined.  What a magnificent place!

My first visit to the cathedral was in the mid-1990's. A friend of mine who is a Russian Byzantine Catholic priest took me there and told me about Saint John's life.  I always try to visit the cathedral when I am in San Francisco. My last visit was in 2003.

Although a Catholic, I am intrigued by Saint John Maximovitch.  While at the cathedral this past Sunday, I venerated his relics and prayed for unity between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

Since my visit was on July 2nd, I had expected that the cathedral would be celebrating Saint John's feastday, but the feast was celebrated on July 1st.  Does anybody know the reason why the celebration of the feast was transferred to the day before?  I had thought Saint John's feast day would be celebrated even if it fell on a Sunday.

Also, there was a sign at the entrance of the cathedral which adviced non-Orthodox to not participate in the services,  including taking the antidoron.  I was always under the impression that non-Orthodox could receive the antidoron.  Other Orthodox jurisdictions allow non-Orthodox to receive the antidoron.  Is this prohibition by ROCOR an exception to the rule?

 
May God bless you,
greigo catolico




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« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2006, 07:53:29 PM »

Quote
Other Orthodox jurisdictions allow non-Orthodox to receive the antidoron.  Is this prohibition by ROCOR an exception to the rule?

There is no rule per se. The practise can vary among the various churches or, indeed, within local churches as ordered by the ruling hierarch - bishop or metropolitan
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« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2006, 08:49:49 PM »

[quote/]

Also, there was a sign at the entrance of the cathedral which adviced non-Orthodox to not participate in the services,ÂÂ  including taking the antidoron.ÂÂ  

[/quote]


Would this include veneration of Icons? I'm unclear about "participate" outside of the Eucharist...??
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« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2006, 08:37:28 PM »

I'm unclear about "participate" outside of the Eucharist...??

It means they don't want non-Orthodox people to attend the actual prayer services. At best, such non-Orthodox can stay in the Narthex, which is the place for those who are not yet baptized. Thus, hardliners believe they avoid praying with heretics and preserve the ancient custom of the Church, which did not allow non-members to even attend the Eucharistic celebration (Let all catechumens depart!).
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« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2006, 02:42:49 PM »

It means they don't want non-Orthodox people to attend the actual prayer services. At best, such non-Orthodox can stay in the Narthex, which is the place for those who are not yet baptized. Thus, hardliners believe they avoid praying with heretics and preserve the ancient custom of the Church, which did not allow non-members to even attend the Eucharistic celebration (Let all catechumens depart!).


Did Jesus kick out anyone from the crowd when he was teaching?
Did John the Baptist only talk to certian people?
This kinda does not sound Christian to me. I can see the praying with thing (not praying for, but along side of. Umm.
Oh I guess this is not the thread anyway. Sorry.
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« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2006, 02:58:31 PM »

Did Jesus kick out anyone from the crowd when he was teaching?
Did John the Baptist only talk to certian people?
This kinda does not sound Christian to me. I can see the praying with thing (not praying for, but along side of. Umm.
Oh I guess this is not the thread anyway. Sorry.

The dismissal of the cathecumens was for centuries--and occasionally still is--such an integral part of Orthodox worship that it can hardly be called "un-Christian".

Even in the first generations of Christians, the public was not brought to the Eucharist, but rather this was reserved for the initiated. This does not go against Christ's missionaries activities. Just because you are keeping the liturgy for those already Christian does not mean you can't go into the public square and call all to repentence.

For what it's worth, most churches which require unbelievers to stay in the narthex do so for reasons of space. Unbelievers should stay in the back so that the believers can worship the gifts and commune in the front.
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« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2006, 03:48:45 PM »

It means they don't want non-Orthodox people to attend the actual prayer services. At best, such non-Orthodox can stay in the Narthex, which is the place for those who are not yet baptized. Thus, hardliners believe they avoid praying with heretics and preserve the ancient custom of the Church, which did not allow non-members to even attend the Eucharistic celebration (Let all catechumens depart!).

I highly doubt this, having never seen the non-Orthodox asked to leave a ROCOR service just by virtue of the fact that they're not Orthodox.
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« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2006, 03:58:41 PM »

I think it simply means do not take communion or prosphera.  I also highly doubt that they would chase you out and wouldn't want you during the services.  I know some of Elder Elias's (name?) monasteries do do this, but I don't think this is the case in San Francisco.  After all, an Orthodox Christian wouldn't receive comunion or ashes say on Ash Wendsday.  Also, I know the Synodal Cathedral also has never had this policiy afaik.  Personally, I'd be more worried as to whether or not my cell phone or pager was on than attending a service.
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« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2006, 04:04:43 PM »

The dismissal of the cathecumens was for centuries--and occasionally still is--such an integral part of Orthodox worship that it can hardly be called "un-Christian".

Even in the first generations of Christians, the public was not brought to the Eucharist, but rather this was reserved for the initiated. This does not go against Christ's missionaries activities. Just because you are keeping the liturgy for those already Christian does not mean you can't go into the public square and call all to repentence.

For what it's worth, most churches which require unbelievers to stay in the narthex do so for reasons of space. Unbelievers should stay in the back so that the believers can worship the gifts and commune in the front.

Oh, my mistake in communication- I understand the dissmissal thing- but I thought that was only for the period of time when celebrating the gifts started.
I think it is still a dismissal of sorts if you are remain seated. But either way I thought it only applied to that specific portion of the Liturgy, not the entire Liturgy. ??
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« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2006, 04:12:06 PM »

I think it simply means do not take communion or prosphera.ÂÂ  I also highly doubt that they would chase you out and wouldn't want you during the services.ÂÂ  I know some of Elder Elias's (name?) monasteries do do this, but I don't think this is the case in San Francisco.ÂÂ  After all, an Orthodox Christian wouldn't receive comunion or ashes say on Ash Wendsday.ÂÂ  Also, I know the Synodal Cathedral also has never had this policiy afaik.ÂÂ  Personally, I'd be more worried as to whether or not my cell phone or pager was on than attending a service.
Daniel

I agree about the cell phone, pager and other annoyances that can take away from the reverence of the Liturgy.
I don't know what Prosphera is but if it is antidron ( blessed bread?) then I have always been told anyone can have it as it is not anything more than blessed bread. I would be mortifyed if someone asked me to refrain from venerating an Icon though, since I always do if I am in an Orthodox parish..
I hope that doesn't get anyone angry that I do that- in fact I asked if it was ok and no one ever said it was not okay, in fact I got alot of smiles for asking first.
I also have purchased and lit candles too. Wow. Now I am wondering if doing all this has caused anyone to be upset- and believe me I would never want to be disrespectful in anyone's place of worship let alone the Orthodox Church!!!
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« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2006, 04:45:40 PM »

I agree about the cell phone, pager and other annoyances that can take away from the reverence of the Liturgy.
I don't know what Prosphera is but if it is antidron ( blessed bread?) then I have always been told anyone can have it as it is not anything more than blessed bread. I would be mortifyed if someone asked me to refrain from venerating an Icon though, since I always do if I am in an Orthodox parish..
I hope that doesn't get anyone angry that I do that- in fact I asked if it was ok and no one ever said it was not okay, in fact I got alot of smiles for asking first.
I also have purchased and lit candles too. Wow. Now I am wondering if doing all this has caused anyone to be upset- and believe me I would never want to be disrespectful in anyone's place of worship let alone the Orthodox Church!!!

No one would find venerating icons or lighting candles to be a bad thing.  Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2006, 11:22:16 AM »

Indeed, the more the better.  And I've heard both responses on receiving antidron/prosphera at the end of the service.  Normally, it's okay.  If not, usually Matushka or the warden will help you.  And I don't think God has any problem about his saints being venerated.  For that matter, I will at times light candles at Catholic Shrines of Our Lady of Czestechowa (the extent of my ecummenicism Wink ).  However, you have the right idea and seem to be going in a healthy direction.
Daniel
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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2006, 12:16:10 PM »

Prosphora is the name of the entire loaf of bread which is made.

The Eucharistic portion that is removed from it and consecrated is called the Lamb, along with other tiny portions.

The remainder of the blessed bread which is cut up and distributed (either to all or only to baptised Orthodox who have prepared themselves with fasting even if not prepared to receive the Eucharist) is called Antidoron, or "instead of the Gift." Neither practice is a statement against others--it's a matter of reserving Liturgical materials for those who are Orthodox and completely participating in the service, and some go farther in this than others.

The time when non-Orthodox (and maybe they were all catechumens and non-catechumens were not even allowed in, I'm not sure) were dismissed from the Liturgy was directly after the Gospel reading/homily at the conclusion of the first part of the Divine Liturgy, the Liturgy of the Word, and it is basically a dismissal from the latter 2/3 of the service, the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2006, 12:37:51 AM »

Hello all,

This past Sunday I visited the ROCOR cathedral of Our Lady, Joy of All Who Sorrow in San Francisco, CA where the relics of Saint John Maximovitch are enshrined.ÂÂ  What a magnificent place!

My first visit to the cathedral was in the mid-1990's. A friend of mine who is a Russian Byzantine Catholic priest took me there and told me about Saint John's life.ÂÂ  I always try to visit the cathedral when I am in San Francisco. My last visit was in 2003.


Just want to tell my experiences at Holy Virgin:

I was fortunate to attend Holy Friday Vespers there this year. It was so beautiful. You pull up to this ominous, bulbuous building with butterflies in your stomach; and then you open up the big doors into another world. I remember once I walked in, peace just enveloped me. I was in San Francisco for a National Journalism Conference - and I can tell you, quite stressful! It was such a nice change to walk into such a serene environment, with the chanting reverberating against the cavernous walls and the incense billowing up inside the dome. Oh, it was so magnificent.

Any Orthodox Christian around/in San Francisco must go to Holy Virgin. Even non-Orthodox should too. My Catholic friend who was along at this conference, stood in the Narthex while I was praying. And as the priest came around censing, I looked over to see if she wasn't freaking out at this man swinging some object at her, smoke coming out. To my surprise, she had tears in her eyes. Perhaps some of it couldve been the incense, but the experience I know and felt at Holy Virgin must have moved her in some way.

Peace,
Ioannis
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« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2006, 12:42:48 AM »

Welcome to the forum, Ιωάννις !

Nice post
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« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2006, 12:45:36 AM »

Thanks! Grin
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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2006, 05:20:30 PM »

Unfortunately I've never seen the ROCOR Cathedral. Does anyone have photos that they can post?
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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2006, 05:36:51 PM »

Here are some pictures from Holy Virgin in San Francisco, during the May 2006 All-Diaspora Sobor.









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« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2006, 06:47:54 PM »

Hello all,

This past Sunday I visited the ROCOR cathedral of Our Lady, Joy of All Who Sorrow in San Francisco, CA where the relics of Saint John Maximovitch are enshrined.ÂÂ  What a magnificent place!

My first visit to the cathedral was in the mid-1990's. A friend of mine who is a Russian Byzantine Catholic priest took me there and told me about Saint John's life.ÂÂ  I always try to visit the cathedral when I am in San Francisco. My last visit was in 2003.

Although a Catholic, I am intrigued by Saint John Maximovitch.ÂÂ  While at the cathedral this past Sunday, I venerated his relics and prayed for unity between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

Since my visit was on July 2nd, I had expected that the cathedral would be celebrating Saint John's feastday, but the feast was celebrated on July 1st.ÂÂ  Does anybody know the reason why the celebration of the feast was transferred to the day before?ÂÂ  I had thought Saint John's feast day would be celebrated even if it fell on a Sunday.

Also, there was a sign at the entrance of the cathedral which adviced non-Orthodox to not participate in the services,ÂÂ  including taking the antidoron.ÂÂ  I was always under the impression that non-Orthodox could receive the antidoron.ÂÂ  Other Orthodox jurisdictions allow non-Orthodox to receive the antidoron.ÂÂ  Is this prohibition by ROCOR an exception to the rule?

 
May God bless you,
greigo catolico

Griego,
Refusing the antidoran to non-Orthodox is unheard of in most Orthodox Churches and exhibits one of the problems with the ROCOR, which is that they think they are THE Church, purer than all others, the Orthodox of the Orthodox.  Apparrently the Church of Lord Jesus is a few hundred thousand  folk, mainly Russian--after almost 2,000 years. Ridiculous.
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« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2006, 07:22:43 PM »

Steve...? pure of the pure? sheesh.  ROCOR just follows the ancient Orthodox custom. Why is that a problem? In the early Church, non Orthodox were not even allowed IN Church.  Antidoron = instead of the gifts.  Non Orthodox cannot commune so it follows that they would not receive antidoron either which is to bless the faithful who did not commune that week.  I really think your judgmental attitude towards ROCOR is unfortunate--especially given that they will be in communion with you shortly.

Anastasios
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« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2006, 07:58:24 PM »

Sheesh is right. Shocked
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« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2006, 10:14:46 PM »

I visited the cathedral in the summer of 2004 along with a bunch of nuns from Zodohos Pigi and some friends and this angry Russian usher was yelling and insulting this lady for wearing pants to the church. I don't find pants tasteful for church either, but I would not have handled it that way. He said she look like a man and that she had no respect or idea how to dress in church. She was on the verge of tears...
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« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2006, 10:58:32 PM »

A male friend of mine had a similar experience at the ROCOR Church in DC; he put his hands behind his back and apparently that is rude in the Russian Church (I see it all the time in the Greek).  The usher pulled him to a back room and yelled at him. What nonsense. I feel bad for the visitors. When such overzealous rude people who use Church as a power trip have attempted to do this to me of course they got an earfull back but I feel sorry for the people who are driven away from Orthodoxy because of this stupidity. We don't allow pants on women at my parish but the nuns very kindly put available wraparound skirts on them or they can stand by the candle guy in the back if they don't want to do that. Men are equally not allowed in in shorts to be fair.  But no yelling at people.

Anastasios
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« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2006, 02:05:23 AM »

Men are equally not allowed in in shorts to be fair.

That's not "fair" at all.  The no pants thing for women is just utterly stupid.  They are trying to impose 18th century Russian dress standards on the rest of the world.  There is no reason why a pants suit wouldn't be plenty conservative. 
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« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2006, 08:08:30 AM »

That's not "fair" at all.ÂÂ  The no pants thing for women is just utterly stupid.ÂÂ  They are trying to impose 18th century Russian dress standards on the rest of the world.ÂÂ  There is no reason why a pants suit wouldn't be plenty conservative.ÂÂ  

It's not utterly stupid, and for you to say that just makes you sound insensitive to our standards, which have not changed (Russian dress of the 18th century? Why is it always Russian and the 18th century? Our people are mostly Greek and in the 18th century they wore outfits that were totally different than today!).ÂÂ  In fact, I am very saddened that you, someone who is normally an intelligent and thoughtful poster, have actually phrased things that way.ÂÂ  I think a lot of things in your jurisdiction are wrong but if you note I make a big effort to not say things the way you just did.ÂÂ  Please, Elisha, think about the way you phrase your criticism--criticism is welcome, but calling our practice utterly stupid is hurtful.

At the local New Calendarist Church near where I live, most women wear pants or the pant-suit combo and those pant suits show much more than a moderate skirt or dress, so I am happy that at our church, such are not allowed.ÂÂ  People these days are losing all sense of taste in formal dress and it's nice that at least in Church people can still be expected to wear formal dress. Leave the pants suits for the office.ÂÂ  It's interesting to note btw that in many court rooms, my wife told me, female attorneys are still expected to wear skirt suits and not pants.

Anastasios
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« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2006, 12:07:41 PM »

It's not utterly stupid, and for you to say that just makes you sound insensitive to our standards, which have not changed (Russian dress of the 18th century? Why is it always Russian and the 18th century? Our people are mostly Greek and in the 18th century they wore outfits that were totally different than today!).  In fact, I am very saddened that you, someone who is normally an intelligent and thoughtful poster, have actually phrased things that way.  I think a lot of things in your jurisdiction are wrong but if you note I make a big effort to not say things the way you just did.  Please, Elisha, think about the way you phrase your criticism--criticism is welcome, but calling our practice utterly stupid is hurtful.
Oh boohoo, you're shocked.  As "insensitive" as my statement may have been, you could try being LESS sensitive.

I'll retract my statement about all these parishes that think conservative dress pants is "cross-dressing" the day that they remove all the plumbing, electrical work and turn-of-the-century "iconography" from their churches.

I'm well aware of a lot wrong things in the OCA.

At the local New Calendarist Church near where I live, most women wear pants or the pant-suit combo and those pant suits show much more than a moderate skirt or dress, so I am happy that at our church, such are not allowed.  People these days are losing all sense of taste in formal dress and it's nice that at least in Church people can still be expected to wear formal dress. Leave the pants suits for the office.  It's interesting to note btw that in many court rooms, my wife told me, female attorneys are still expected to wear skirt suits and not pants.

Anastasios
When I went to Festal Vigil for St. John at Geary St. last year, there were teenagers in tight-fitting almost-sleeveless shirts with skirts just above the knee and no veil and no one batted an eye.  On the other hand, I was told that the SF DA visted another parish in town (someone in the choir there knew her) and someone tried to wrap a ratty old skirt around her $1000 pants-suit.

We're talking about conservative, non-distracting dress - not "formal".  You're not seeing formal in church in most cases, but peasant or common folk dress.  People don't wear gowns and tuxedos to church unless they are the ones getting married.  Suits (pants or skirts) are conservative by nature.  Maybe in your example these few women wore a "revealing" pants suit, but even then I have a hard time believing you since pants-suits are loose fitting and cover a lot by nature.  There are loose fitting pants and a jacket which covers all but the neck and upper chest area.  Clothing involving skirts/dresses has a lot more leeway.
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« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2006, 12:16:59 PM »

I'm sorry, I just can't figure out why you feel the need to be so rude.  There's no reason for us to continue this.

Anastasios
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« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2006, 12:33:11 PM »

I'm sorry, I just can't figure out why you feel the need to be so rude.  There's no reason for us to continue this.

Anastasios

And I'm sorry that you feel so overwhelmed that you can't discuss a position that many think is ridiculous.  Nonetheless, spraznikam and happy Dormition.  Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2006, 12:51:26 PM »

Dear Elisha,

Oh, I am not overwhelmed, but I find that the more I reflect on the peace I felt at my baptism in the Orthodox Church, the less I want to lose that peace.  A dry, academic debate would be interesting and acceptable to me but I have no desire to try to engage you given that you already think our position is utterly stupid and you responded to my concerns with "oh boo hoo hoo."  I don't think any less of you as a person and the old me would enjoy debating till the end of time but well, now it's becoming harder for me to do that. Have a nice feast day yourself. Smiley

Anastasios
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Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
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« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2006, 01:50:57 PM »

Awww c'mon, a little cleavage never hurt anybody. It's to be expected in the GOA!  Wink
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« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2006, 08:01:07 PM »

Steve...? pure of the pure? sheesh.ÂÂ  ROCOR just follows the ancient Orthodox custom. Why is that a problem? In the early Church, non Orthodox were not even allowed IN Church.ÂÂ  Antidoron = instead of the gifts.ÂÂ  Non Orthodox cannot commune so it follows that they would not receive antidoron either which is to bless the faithful who did not commune that week.ÂÂ  I really think your judgmental attitude towards ROCOR is unfortunate--especially given that they will be in communion with you shortly.

Anastasios

The antidoron is blessed bread, nothing more.ÂÂ  The custom of giving this was to emphasize the difference between the Bread of Heaven (Eucharistic Jesus) and plain bread.ÂÂ  Why would anyone have to be Christian, never mind Orthodox Christian, to recieve this ?ÂÂ  It should be considered a gesture of human fellowship, period.
The OCA is not under the authority of the Patriarch of Moscow; it was made autocephalous in 1970.ÂÂ  Part of ROCOR has entered into negotiations toÂÂ  come back in to communion with the Patriarchate of Moscow; others refuse to have anything to do with those negotiations.
The ROCORÂÂ  is very opposed to the ecumenical movement.ÂÂ  If this is seen as watering doen the Orthodox faith I can understand it.ÂÂ  However, there is another approach.ÂÂ  How can other Christians (anyone who recieves Lord Jesus ChristÂÂ  as God, Lord and Saviour) be exposed to the Orthodox faith if Orthodox Christians refuse to have anything to do with them, refuse to enter into dialogue with them ?ÂÂ  This aloofness strikes me as spiritual pride--"We, the pure, will not be contaminated by contact with you, the impure."ÂÂ  A strange attitude for folks who claim to believe God became one of us, joined Himself toÂÂ  us, the impure.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2006, 08:02:18 PM by Steve Dennehy » Logged
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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2006, 02:07:15 PM »

Griego,
Refusing the antidoran to non-Orthodox is unheard of in most Orthodox Churches and exhibits one of the problems with the ROCOR, which is that they think they are THE Church, purer than all others, the Orthodox of the Orthodox.ÂÂ  Apparrently the Church of Lord Jesus is a few hundred thousandÂÂ  folk, mainly Russian--after almost 2,000 years. Ridiculous.

WOW, I have obviously been away too long.
First of all, my friend who wrote the quote above...ÂÂ  Look to your own jurisdiction and its problems before bashing mine.ÂÂ  At least ours weren't headlines in the Chicago Tribune in recent months.ÂÂ  

Some rules for those who might be a guest at a ROCOR parish:

1. Women, wear skirts.ÂÂ  Like it, don't like it, tough, if you don't want to get yelled at, don't wear pants.ÂÂ  How hard is it, really, to wear a skirt (I know, during the winter, you have to deal with pantyhose, and thats a pain in the rear, but get over it).

2.ÂÂ  DO NOT, UNDER ANY CONDITIONS, PUT YOUR HANDS BEHIND YOUR BACK.ÂÂ  It is considered disrespectful to old-school Russians such as myself.ÂÂ  You put your hands behind your back while strolling through a museum or examining an oddity.ÂÂ  You DO NOT do it when standing in the presence of someone you respect, and especially God.ÂÂ  Also, standing with your hands behind your back tends to do horrendous things to posture, and usually just looks plain bad.

3.ÂÂ  It IS acceptable for non-Orthos to take the antidor.ÂÂ  Some priests might say otherwise, but I've recently demonstrated in another post, all jurisdictions have priests that don't have a clue.

4.ÂÂ  By all means, venerate the icons and put up candles.ÂÂ  The churches generally could use the revenue that candle sales bring in.ÂÂ  

5.ÂÂ  Do NOT talk to your neighbor during the service.ÂÂ  A. Its disrespectful B. You risk being yelled at by any number of people, including me.

6.ÂÂ  Understand, that if someone comes up to you to correct you, 99% of the time they are not yelling (yelling in church is not acceptable) at you.ÂÂ  If they tell you to put a skirt on, or cover your shoulders, or not to wander during particular points in the liturgy, they are trying to educate you.ÂÂ  They might do it clumsily, but be a Christian, and be respectful.ÂÂ  

7.ÂÂ  The 1% of people who actually yell at you if you do something wrong because they enjoy yelling are unfortunately present in any society.

8.ÂÂ  At least 50% of the people who will say something to you in church are newly Orthodox, and have all that zeal and don't know what to do with it, making themselves a nusence.

9.ÂÂ  Most people standing in the church don't care if your in pants or if your hair has purple pok-a-dots.ÂÂ  Most are happy you are there.

10.ÂÂ  When non-Orthodox & going to a ROCOR parish, know when ABSOLUTELY it is not allowed to walk around the church (Like Mercy of Peace, the Gospel, etc).ÂÂ  You run a strong possiblity of being spoken too.

So, keep these tips in mind.ÂÂ  Remember, we from ROCOR, when going to your churches have to tollerate pews, organs, and all sorts of things that we are not used to.ÂÂ  Do the same for us.

Now, I realize I'm slightly irritable.  Time for breakfast.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2006, 02:08:22 PM by ania » Logged

Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2006, 02:29:55 PM »

What she said...  Cheesy
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« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2006, 03:12:05 PM »

Hahaha, well put ania!
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« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2006, 04:28:24 PM »

Very nice; glad to have you back!
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« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2006, 03:24:01 PM »

So, keep these tips in mind.ÂÂ  Remember, we from ROCOR, when going to your churches have to tollerate pews, organs, and all sorts of things that we are not used to.ÂÂ  Do the same for us.

Not ALL Greek churches have organs. When Canadian Orthodox go down to he Stataes, we're usually shocked the first couple times. The first time I walked into a Greek church in the states, I could've sworn it was Catholic but with icons. There was a loud organ, a choir with people wearing western choir robes, the priests were fully-shaven. These things only bother people I guess because they're not used to them. It took me some time to understand what exactly "western style byzantine 'chant' " was. I still dont really understand what that is. Byzantine and Bach collaborating...?
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« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2006, 07:42:20 PM »

WOW, I have obviously been away too long.
First of all, my friend who wrote the quote above...ÂÂ  Look to your own jurisdiction and its problems before bashing mine.ÂÂ  At least ours weren't headlines in the Chicago Tribune in recent months.ÂÂ  

Some rules for those who might be a guest at a ROCOR parish:

1. Women, wear skirts.ÂÂ  Like it, don't like it, tough, if you don't want to get yelled at, don't wear pants.ÂÂ  How hard is it, really, to wear a skirt (I know, during the winter, you have to deal with pantyhose, and thats a pain in the rear, but get over it).

2.ÂÂ  DO NOT, UNDER ANY CONDITIONS, PUT YOUR HANDS BEHIND YOUR BACK.ÂÂ  It is considered disrespectful to old-school Russians such as myself.ÂÂ  You put your hands behind your back while strolling through a museum or examining an oddity.ÂÂ  You DO NOT do it when standing in the presence of someone you respect, and especially God.ÂÂ  Also, standing with your hands behind your back tends to do horrendous things to posture, and usually just looks plain bad.

3.ÂÂ  It IS acceptable for non-Orthos to take the antidor.ÂÂ  Some priests might say otherwise, but I've recently demonstrated in another post, all jurisdictions have priests that don't have a clue.

4.ÂÂ  By all means, venerate the icons and put up candles.ÂÂ  The churches generally could use the revenue that candle sales bring in.ÂÂ  

5.ÂÂ  Do NOT talk to your neighbor during the service.ÂÂ  A. Its disrespectful B. You risk being yelled at by any number of people, including me.

6.ÂÂ  Understand, that if someone comes up to you to correct you, 99% of the time they are not yelling (yelling in church is not acceptable) at you.ÂÂ  If they tell you to put a skirt on, or cover your shoulders, or not to wander during particular points in the liturgy, they are trying to educate you.ÂÂ  They might do it clumsily, but be a Christian, and be respectful.ÂÂ  

7.ÂÂ  The 1% of people who actually yell at you if you do something wrong because they enjoy yelling are unfortunately present in any society.

8.ÂÂ  At least 50% of the people who will say something to you in church are newly Orthodox, and have all that zeal and don't know what to do with it, making themselves a nusence.

9.ÂÂ  Most people standing in the church don't care if your in pants or if your hair has purple pok-a-dots.ÂÂ  Most are happy you are there.

10.ÂÂ  When non-Orthodox & going to a ROCOR parish, know when ABSOLUTELY it is not allowed to walk around the church (Like Mercy of Peace, the Gospel, etc).ÂÂ  You run a strong possiblity of being spoken too.

So, keep these tips in mind.ÂÂ  Remember, we from ROCOR, when going to your churches have to tollerate pews, organs, and all sorts of things that we are not used to.ÂÂ  Do the same for us.

Now, I realize I'm slightly irritable.ÂÂ  Time for breakfast.

Ania,
Now that you've eaten, I will attempt to approach you --with a chair and whip in case you're still peckish.ÂÂ  I don't know what you're referring to in the scandal in the "Chicago Tribune"; please tell me.

I'm not bashing the ROCOR; I am pointing out an attitude that I have encountered many times with members of ROCOR.ÂÂ  

The thing aboiut "hands behind the back" is strictly old Russian .ÂÂ  That culture might see that posture as rude, most wouldn't.ÂÂ  If I were prone to taking that posture and was in an ROCOR church I would make every effort not to take that posture but if I forgot and did it and someone came up to me to berate me, I would tell them they should be focused on worshipping Trinity and not policingÂÂ  posture. Let's not confuse ethnic mores with the Orthodox Christian faith.ÂÂ  Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Divine Jew, not the Divine Russian.ÂÂ  He did not found a Russian Church; He founded His Church.
"My House is a House of Prayer for ALL peoples."

Steve
« Last Edit: August 19, 2006, 07:49:00 PM by Steve Dennehy » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2006, 07:58:05 PM »

Ania,

That was a fine representation of your typical ROCOR person. You are not just some nethead, who goes too far because of some articles he read on some website. No, you are the real deal. So anyone reading this can know exactly what ROCOR is like* by reading Ania's above post. There is the joke about going to a Greek church, and having old ladies come up to you and say "You are not Greek! Why you want to come here? Baptist Church down street. You go now."  The Russians are generally more hospitable, but a similar joke about the ROCOR would also work.

* Though there are exceptions, they tend to be in situations where the priest/parish were originally in a different jurisdiction, and switched to ROCOR.
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« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2006, 08:42:38 PM »

The thing aboiut "hands behind the back" is strictly old Russian . 
No it isn't. It's also Greek and Antiochian. Please don't tell us what is and isn't our culture......

That culture might see that posture as rude, most wouldn't. 
The culture it is offending is Christan culture. In Church, we attend to prayer, and we pray with our bodies as well as our hearts minds and souls. That is why we have Canons about not kneeling on Sundays. We Cross ourselves, we stand to attention, we bow...the only reason one would place their hands behind their back is if they were not participating in the Divine Liturgy- so then, why are they there?
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« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2006, 09:32:31 PM »

"Hands behind the back thing" - does read like a Russian thing though because I have never seen anyone do this posture in a Greek parish and, hence, no one ever corrected for it.
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« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2006, 09:37:18 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9433.msg132330#msg132330 date=1156037551]
I have never seen anyone do this posture in a Greek parish [/quote]
They wouln't dare.  Cheesy
I have once seen the wrath of the yiayias unleashed on someone who once crossed their legs while sitting in a stall though.
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« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2006, 09:43:41 PM »

You read my mind with the γιαγια comment! Especially for crossing legs...
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« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2006, 10:22:44 PM »

What irks me, I guess, is that the people who say "it's just an old Russian thing" or "it's just a Greek thing" have no idea what they are talking about, and most often are using it as the age-old way of Orthodoxy-bashing with the claim that we are just a bunch of "ethnic" Churches, each with their own ethnic customs which they consider to be Orthopraxis.
And yet, these same people would not hesitate to stand with their hand on their heart during the Star Spangled Banner- whether they are Anglo-Americans, African-Americans, Hispanic-Americans, Greek-Americans etc..... The posture during the National Anthem is considered "Patriotic American", not "ethnic". But a posture in a Russian Orthodox Church is automatically assumed to be "Russian" and not "Orthodox Christian".....
« Last Edit: August 19, 2006, 10:40:07 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2006, 10:49:12 PM »

Good point george.
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« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2006, 03:34:49 PM »

Just a warning, I'm considered pretty liberal for ROCOR :-P 

But, if your offended by Russians keeping to their traditions, (after all, "R" in ROCOR stand for "Russian" and "Russia), why do you go?  We simply insist that people that visit respect our traditions. 
ROCOR, at first organized to be a church for Russian refugees, now, more & more has 2 faucets.  On one side, you have the decendents of the old Russians, many of them not able to speak Russian themselves, as well as converts.  For them, English parishes are organized, or parishes have 2 services.  On the other side, and this is particularly seen in big parishes such as Boston, Washington DC, and especially Chicago, it is now geered towards FOBs (Fresh Off the Boats), so that they can worship as they are used to.  Our parish is right now 95% 1st generation Russian. 
So yes, we do have ethnic pride in that we're Russian.  So what?  I see no less in Greeks, or Serbs, or any others.  If that we keep our church traditions (skirts, no pews, etc) instead of not having vigil on Saturday because it would interfer with the festival that's scheduled for that weekend, where there was meat served despite it being St. Peter & Paul Lent (I saw this a few months ago at a local Greek church) bothers you, then, I really can't help you.

Now, once more I find myself posting before breakfast.  Time to eat & hit the gym.   
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Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
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