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Dismus
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« on: July 04, 2006, 02:47:29 AM »

This experience here on this forum was very good for me as a Roman Catholic.
I have no regrets for visiting this forum and have gotten valuable insight that I am very thankful for.
As well as a new perspective on my view of Orthodoxy as well.
I am thankful for all of your help and prayers
and will continue to hold deep admiration and respect for the Orthodox Christians. Even though I can see that I am just too stupid to be one. As was clearly made a point here. At least one of you saved  me a lot of time and $.
Thank you all so much,
Good Bye,
A lost Christian
a sinner with hope.
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Philokalia
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« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2006, 04:32:43 AM »

Patience is a virtue. If you want to stay Catholic thats fine provided that you can find what you need in the faith, which I think you could. But I wouldn't jump to conclusions about any faith simply on the basis of the people you encounter in a Forum like this. There are some pretty snippy Catholic Forums about as well. Take your time, pray for guidance and continue to seek for the knowledge and will of God for you at this time.

God Bless.

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Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity. Violence destroys what it claims to defend: the dignity, the life, the freedom of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society.
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« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2006, 11:49:36 AM »

Please don't make any decisions based on the response of some of the bombastic, self-appointed popes that inhabit this forum.  If I had based my inquiries into Orthodoxy on what I observed on this forum over the years, I would never have entered the Church.

Go in peace.
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« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2006, 11:53:31 AM »

Good advice...chastisement accepted.
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Dismus
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« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2006, 12:03:02 PM »

Patience is a virtue. If you want to stay Catholic thats fine provided that you can find what you need in the faith, which I think you could. But I wouldn't jump to conclusions about any faith simply on the basis of the people you encounter in a Forum like this. There are some pretty snippy Catholic Forums about as well. Take your time, pray for guidance and continue to seek for the knowledge and will of God for you at this time.

God Bless.

Thanks for the blessing.
No one here could possibly be responsible for such an important decsion, and I fault no one for merely expressing themselves, and they are entitled to do so., it adds to the conversation and gives another perspective.
I am aware of the snippy Catholic forums as well, and it does not bother me.
I am a bit concerned with the constant in-fighting with Orthodox/vs. "not really orthodox" and what appears to an outsider like myself as no real concensus on many issues depending on what ethnic branch of Orthodoxy you are in.
This gives me reason to re-evaluate the necessity of a Pope to keep everyone on the same page. Quite honestly, I'm not so sure what everyone is so afraid of with "the big bad Pope". In our lifetimes, what the heck has the Pope(s) done to cause such a fear or warrant such an objection to his position?
I love the Orthodox way of approaching the steps that lead you closer to God, and admire the worship in it's full beauty, The Divine Liturgy is amazing.
But, it seems there are many more things that make me uncomfortable about Orthodoxy and the fact that it has never been a real go-getter in evangelizing Americans and some ethnic backrounds in Orthodoxy are so hostile to Americans on the secular front that it really makes me feel like I am "intruding" on some sort of private club of some sorts., not a place to plunk down roots and grow in. So, I will admire Orthodoxy from afar and leave it at that.
Thanks again.

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Philokalia
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« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2006, 12:27:10 PM »

The Liturgy of the Orthodox Church is indeed beautiful. There are Catholic Churches, united to Rome, which use the same liturgy such as the Byzantine Catholic Church. However for many in the Orthodox world the Catholic Churches of the Eastern Rite are a source of scandal and division. It is seen as somehow dishonest to use the Orthodox Rite without holding the Orthodox views. No doubt others will express themselves fully and frankly on this subject to you. But its something you might explore if you are still unhappy with Catholicism yet not happy enough about Orthodoxy.

Never stop searching for Jesus, he never stops waiting for you.


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Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity. Violence destroys what it claims to defend: the dignity, the life, the freedom of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society.
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« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2006, 01:41:18 PM »

This gives me reason to re-evaluate the necessity of a Pope to keep everyone on the same page.

Roman Catholics are all on the same page because of the Pope?!? I spend a lot of time at 3 different Catholic institutions of higher learning in Boston. Haven't met a single person who agrees with everyone else (the theologically-based infighting, factions and cliques are astounding!) -- and only one person who actually admires the Pope (especially the current one), and this professor isn't even Catholic (she's Lutheran!).

Of course, it may be my personal experience, but based on my interactions and readings, I would venture to say that there is probably no more diverse Christian Church than the Roman Catholic Church, wherein diversity extends to many doctrinal and liturgical matters of the utmost significance: liberation theology, Kungian theologians (of which there are many), "New Age" Catholics, Charismatic Catholics, advocates for female ordination, liturgical dancers, followers of Mother Angelica, "liberals," Karl Rahner types, those who agitate against Vatican II, traditionalists, folk Catholics (who mix tribal customs and beliefs with Catholicism), etc., etc. (Even in churches like the Unitarian Universalist, one wouldn't find a "traditionalist," sitting next to an animist, sitting next to someone who likes to worship in tongues).

And in addition to this diversity, there's a fairly wide-spread disregard for basic Catholic teaching. The Magesterium may claim to speak authoritatively on many matters, but polls show that most Catholics, especially in Western countries, are rarely listening to even the most clear-cut statements of "official" Catholic theology (e.g. birth control). And that includes plenty of people in positions of leadership. Just have a chat with your run-of-the-mill Jesuit or German Catholic.

Diversity of opinion and practice is par for the course in any organization with more than 3 people.
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Dismus
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2006, 01:53:00 PM »

Roman Catholics are all on the same page because of the Pope?!? I spend a lot of time at 3 different Catholic institutions of higher learning in Boston. Haven't met a single person who agrees with everyone else (the theologically-based infighting, factions and cliques are astounding!) -- and only one person who actually admires the Pope (especially the current one), and this professor isn't even Catholic (she's Lutheran!).

Of course, it may be my personal experience, but based on my interactions and readings, I would venture to say that there is probably no more diverse Christian Church than the Roman Catholic Church, wherein diversity extends to many doctrinal and liturgical matters of the utmost significance: liberation theology, Kungian theologians (of which there are many), "New Age" Catholics, Charismatic Catholics, advocates for female ordination, liturgical dancers, followers of Mother Angelica, "liberals," Karl Rahner types, those who agitate against Vatican II, traditionalists, folk Catholics (who mix tribal customs and beliefs with Catholicism), etc., etc. (Even in churches like the Unitarian Universalist, one wouldn't find a "traditionalist," sitting next to an animist, sitting next to someone who likes to worship in tongues).

And in addition to this diversity, there's a fairly wide-spread disregard for basic Catholic teaching. The Magesterium may claim to speak authoritatively on many matters, but polls show that most Catholics, especially in Western countries, are rarely listening to even the most clear-cut statements of "official" Catholic theology (e.g. birth control). And that includes plenty of people in positions of leadership. Just have a chat with your run-of-the-mill Jesuit or German Catholic.

Diversity of opinion and practice is par for the course in any organization with more than 3 people.

What you say is sad and true, but the ones you mention here that are the "sad" lot are in disobedience and defiance of the Pope.
Anyone can chose to disobey any aspect of their faith either on an individual basis or in a made up group of disobedient persons.
But someone has to set the tone and draw the line somewhere.
Yes, it is a bit "par for the course" to have diversity of opinion, but that is the key word here-
Who's opinion?
Scandoulous renegades trying to hyjack the Church are not doing so with a permissive Pope.
You can easily see who is and who is not following the "rules" as you pointed out.
But where does one go when they desire to follow the "rules" and be subservient and humble to them?
You have to have clear rules, or it leads to make it up as you go along Protestant thinking.
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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2006, 02:03:20 PM »

It bums me out when people outside of Orthodoxy view it as a chaotic group of ethnic clubs who have no centralized understanding of, well, anything.  Opinions differ, of course, as they do with everything but there is always an underlying ethos, a centrality to Orthodoxy that you can feel rather than verbalize.  My understanding of the outside appearance of chaos is that not everything can be verbalized into one simple statement that covers everything.  If we tried to do this it would limit our gifts from God to THINK and to understand for ourselves, not based on what someone else tells us.  We do our searching, and we are not afraid to question when something someone in authority or in perceived authority says that doesn't quite ring with us.  Surely we have our cultural problems; a lot of folk stuff (and I speak from my Greek roots here) has indeed crept in and has become what most people think is Orthodox.  But this is, again, from a lack of thought and research.

As for being under the authority of someone lest we become Protestants - that's why we have spiritual fathers to help guide us here on earth.  That's why we have bishops, and archbishops, etc. etc.  We are not entirely alone in deciding our spiritual matters.  We always have help.
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« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2006, 02:43:36 PM »

Anyone can chose to disobey any aspect of their faith either on an individual basis or in a made up group of disobedient persons. But someone has to set the tone and draw the line somewhere.

But if hundreds (more likely thousands) of priests, nuns and even Bishops and Archbishops don't listen to this "someone" and this "someone" doesn't do anything about it, then what difference does this "someone" actually make? Possibly a theoretical one. But the holiness (and consensus) of the Church is not built on fanciful medieval theories (or, actually, on how one Hierarch "sets the tone"). This is the real question: Have Christians believed that one particular office holder is supposed to "set the tone" and "draw the line" somewhere, or must the Church in general, composed of all those who share in the royal priesthood of Christ? (Even official Catholic theology post-Vatican II has emphasized the conciliarity of the RC Church...so what, exactly, does the Pope's proclamation offer in theory, not to mention reality? Mainly a poetic sense of unity.)

Quote
Scandoulous renegades trying to hyjack the Church are not doing so with a permissive Pope.

Well, I believe Benedict XVI has called for an end to guitars in the Mass, but I know of many Masses going on in most of the RC Churches in my hometown right now which use guitars, including a Mass in the Archbishop's Cathedral. I don't think we can call Archbishops, Bishops, priests and entire religious orders "renegades" (unless we want to redefine the word "renegade"). Liturgical innovation has been and continues to be extremely popular -- often with the approval of the episcopacy.
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Dismus
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« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2006, 03:09:07 PM »

But if hundreds (more likely thousands) of priests, nuns and even Bishops and Archbishops don't listen to this "someone" and this "someone" doesn't do anything about it, then what difference does this "someone" actually make? Possibly a theoretical one. But the holiness (and consensus) of the Church is not built on fanciful medieval theories (or, actually, on how one Hierarch "sets the tone"). This is the real question: Have Christians believed that one particular office holder is supposed to "set the tone" and "draw the line" somewhere, or must the Church in general, composed of all those who share in the royal priesthood of Christ? (Even official Catholic theology post-Vatican II has emphasized the conciliarity of the RC Church...so what, exactly, does the Pope's proclamation offer in theory, not to mention reality? Mainly a poetic sense of unity.)



Well, I believe Benedict XVI has called for an end to guitars in the Mass, but I know of many Masses going on in most of the RC Churches in my hometown right now which use guitars, including a Mass in the Archbishop's Cathedral. I don't think we can call Archbishops, Bishops, priests and entire religious orders "renegades" (unless we want to redefine the word "renegade"). Liturgical innovation has been and continues to be extremely popular -- often with the approval of the episcopacy.



You are once again correct on many points. Re: Renegades- umm, yes entire religious orders have been disobedient and the first and most notorious one that comes to mind off the top of my head are the old Jesuits who won and lost favor with Rome and the Pope on and off again over the years.
Now, they are practically impotent of any power.
Liturgical innovation has been popular with the want to be Protestant Catholics. This is why the many Schisms mentioned earlier exist- Traditionalists(not in unioun) Sedes, SSPX, all sorts of variants have arisen over the actions of these religious terrorists.
The Pope can not stop this from happening, what could he do? Go back to the old ways of rooting out the bad seeds?
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Dismus
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« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2006, 03:56:03 PM »

It bums me out when people outside of Orthodoxy view it as a chaotic group of ethnic clubs who have no centralized understanding of, well, anything.ÂÂ  Opinions differ, of course, as they do with everything but there is always an underlying ethos, a centrality to Orthodoxy that you can feel rather than verbalize.ÂÂ  My understanding of the outside appearance of chaos is that not everything can be verbalized into one simple statement that covers everything.ÂÂ  If we tried to do this it would limit our gifts from God to THINK and to understand for ourselves, not based on what someone else tells us.ÂÂ  We do our searching, and we are not afraid to question when something someone in authority or in perceived authority says that doesn't quite ring with us.ÂÂ  Surely we have our cultural problems; a lot of folk stuff (and I speak from my Greek roots here) has indeed crept in and has become what most people think is Orthodox.ÂÂ  But this is, again, from a lack of thought and research.



As for being under the authority of someone lest we become Protestants - that's why we have spiritual fathers to help guide us here on earth.ÂÂ  That's why we have bishops, and archbishops, etc. etc.ÂÂ  We are not entirely alone in deciding our spiritual matters.ÂÂ  We always have help.


This is very true, and very good point. We do always have help, and I agree that the outsider perspective is just that- not a good one to draw from until one really knows it in a real experience. Thanks for your thoughts, it makes sense to me.
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Dismus
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« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2006, 05:08:24 PM »

I have been praying about this, and it just hit me like a ton of bricks!!!
If the central aspect of the faith is the celebration of the Eucharist---
and this celebration has remained intact and unchanged all these years in the Orthodox faith, and if this is the most important thing for us to take part of ---
it has been accomplished without a Pope.
Ahh Haa...
So "rules" are more arbitary- the rule Christ asked us to follow supercedes all rules!!!
The secret is in the Eucharist.
I also respect the fact that Orthodox priests do not give the Eucharist to a passerby or a complete unknown.

You will know them by their "fruit"........
What better fruit than the celebration of the Eucharist?
I think I am getting a better  idea of the usefullness/uselessness of rigid rules.
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Colum597
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« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2006, 05:56:05 PM »

BINGO!!!
« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 06:00:02 PM by Colum597 » Logged

"This life has been given to you for repentance, do not waste it in vain pursuits." 
St. Isaac of Syria
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