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Author Topic: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?  (Read 26131 times) Average Rating: 0
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Timos
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« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2006, 01:20:22 AM »

I can certainly identify with Aristokles. My grandparents and great grand parents told me of how hey were treated as second class citizens, having to pay very heavy taxes, not being able to "ride the donkey/horse" and later drive the car, in the street publically, how they had to walk in the mud on the street while the muslims walked on the pavement. I bet all Christians back then prayed that they might not have a very beautiful daughter so that she won't be taken away by them too.

As a side note, Panagia Soumela (Aristokles' avatar) is a monastery high in the mountains of Pontos, which now is uninhabited.

For the non-greek whiners (except the Serbs who actually understand this stuff cuz they're livin' it right now), if you're people (fill in the blanks) was forced out of their homes, starved, murdered, forced to leave your own country, I wonder if some of you would've wrote those posts about "our kingdom is in heaven, not on earth"- in the end maybe, but you might as well smash all our hopes and dreams now because we all know our future is in heaven. I don't care if Turkey wants to exist, let it exist in the Bahamas, just not on other people's land (ie. Greeks, Armenians, Kurds).
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« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2006, 02:39:48 AM »

Quote
For the non-greek whiners (except the Serbs who actually understand this stuff cuz they're livin' it right now), if you're people (fill in the blanks) was forced out of their homes, starved, murdered, forced to leave your own country, I wonder if some of you would've wrote those posts about "our kingdom is in heaven, not on earth"- in the end maybe, but you might as well smash all our hopes and dreams now because we all know our future is in heaven. I don't care if Turkey wants to exist, let it exist in the Bahamas, just not on other people's land (ie. Greeks, Armenians, Kurds).

For us non-Greeks did you ever stop to consider that just maybe other groups besides Serbs and Greeks have had misfortune in their history?  My Grandparents lost their home, were forced to flee their country, had family and friends executed all by good old Holy Russia.  Different families/groups have chosen to manifest that in different ways.  Were I to act like some on this forum, I would be a diehard Roman Catholic and Polish nationalist talking about reclaiming the former glory of Poland.  But since we are talking about suffering - how do you feel about the Macedonians who suffered just as much under the Turks as anyone else in the Balkans?  How do you feel about the fact that the Greek government denies they even exist in Northern Greece and also wants to deny the name of their country?  I don't recall ever hearing of Greece wanting to donate land back to the Slavic inhabitants (or their descendents) that was taken during the Balkan wars. 

So where should the modern Turks live under your relocation plan?  Even supposing lands where non-Turkic ethnic groups are the dominant population are allowed self determination, that would still leave much of Asia Minor as Turkey.  Where do you propose to put them?  And since you expect Turkey to give back the land and property to the Greeks expelled in the population exchange, I assume you think Greece should also restore land and property to Turks and other Muslims expelled from Greece?   
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« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2006, 10:10:39 AM »

From 1204 to 1254 western Anatola ( Asia Minor) was left undefended from the Islamic incursion.The reason for this is: The Latins(who unlawfully seized the throne) either (A)did not consider them ( Muslims) a threat or(B) they were to concerned with the eventual return of the true Emperor and ignored eastern defences in favor of defending the western front from ( I hate this word) the "Byzantines" or (C) both of the above. By the time Emperor Palaeologus regained the throne, most of Western Anatola was lost forever ( or only temporarilyÂÂ  Wink ).
 Hence, it can be reasonably argued that the sack of Constantinople DID lead to its` fall to the Muslims.





Also, the Pope`s refusal to send troops to defend the city due to wide scale refusal ( in the east) to accept the Council of Florence ( i.e. Papal supremacy) is yet another issue that R.C.`s are flat out ignorant of ( or in denial).
  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  It never ceases to amaze me how under educated most R.C.`s about their own history (let alone ours) ....whereas ,in Orthodoxy knowledge of the past is so entertwined with our faith.


If I may offer my own reasons as an RC why I am "undereducated about their own history (let alone ....

It is just my opinion but most Europeans have a broader knowledge of History in Europe/the World than Americans do.
I hate to say but it might be a combination of "who cares" and bad education, and in some cases pure laziness.
I might have qualifyed for all three. Not thinking of History and Faith until I was in my 20's. Even then - a very small, curiosity,, not a driving passion.
My mother is Finnish, so I had a remote interest in learning about the big bad Russians for a while., but guess what- most people don't need to know about history to be a good RCC/Orthodox.
I just would like to have a deeper understanding.
So, yes I am a lazy American.
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Dismus
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« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2006, 10:18:09 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126740#msg126740 date=1152081588]
  But since we are talking about suffering - how do you feel about the Macedonians who suffered just as much under the Turks as anyone else in the Balkans?  How do you feel about the fact that the Greek government denies they even exist in Northern Greece and also wants to deny the name of their country?  I don't recall ever hearing of Greece wanting to donate land back to the Slavic inhabitants (or their descendents) that was taken during the Balkan wars.   ÃƒÆ’‚  
[/quote]

I don't want to speak for others here, but I would guess that no one here on this fourm relishes anyone's suffering.
That would not be Christian.
But from the beginning of time we have had it and will until the end.
Looking at this event does not minimize any other, and if we take the attitude that people are nasty everywhere (true) but- it leads to apathy and hopelessness instead of making sense of the past to prevent or at the very least not agitate another tragedy.
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« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2006, 11:48:20 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126740#msg126740 date=1152081588]
For us non-Greeks did you ever stop to consider that just maybe other groups besides Serbs and Greeks have had misfortune in their history?ÂÂ  My Grandparents lost their home, were forced to flee their country, had family and friends executed all by good old Holy Russia.ÂÂ  Different families/groups have chosen to manifest that in different ways.ÂÂ  Were I to act like some on this forum, I would be a diehard Roman Catholic and Polish nationalist talking about reclaiming the former glory of Poland.ÂÂ  But since we are talking about suffering - how do you feel about the Macedonians who suffered just as much under the Turks as anyone else in the Balkans?ÂÂ  How do you feel about the fact that the Greek government denies they even exist in Northern Greece and also wants to deny the name of their country?ÂÂ  I don't recall ever hearing of Greece wanting to donate land back to the Slavic inhabitants (or their descendents) that was taken during the Balkan wars.ÂÂ  
[/quote]
Yes, you're right, but us "non-Greeks"/fill-in-the-blank-non-ethnic-Orthodox don't have the religious ties to our ancestors as the ethnics.  Sure, we want to pray for other (non-EO) Christians, but we realize that they left the faith many centuries ago and don't have that religious bond that "ethnics" have back with their homeland.  You may not think so, but I think it makes a big difference.  Also, these ethnic Orthodox mother country issues are CURRENT EVENTS that CAN be changed, as opposed to injustices that happened many decades or centuries ago.
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Timos
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« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2006, 11:58:14 AM »

Nektarios, when I mentioned Greeks and Serbs, I didn't mean ONLY them, I'm including people of all nationalities who have also suffered. As for the glory of former Poland, that doesn't count...you can still go to Poland and in all likelyhood you will hear Polish being spoken on the streets, you will see polish/Catholic churches, you will most likely eat polish food (unless you're in the capital and there's a McDonald:))...if I go to Imvros, Tenedos- you know those 2 islands where there was a greek majoriy in the early 20th century and the turks let out all these turkish gahoons out of jail to run the greeks off the island...if I go anywhere in Asia Minor, I'll probably hear Turkish, see mosques, or "mosque..ahem I mean churches", and the funny thing is, I'll see "Roman" monuments which we all know today as Byzantine which these people didn't even help to build up. They helped to destroy it and yet when they see Agia Sophia, they're proud of it. huh?! For heaven's sake, the Armenian patriarch got arrested for painting a building's exterior.

And I don't expect Turkey to give back anything. I'm hoping that one day they can give back the Agia Sophia but I'm still quite doubtful. I don't believe that we should get rid of the Turks by genociding them. That would be too Turkish of us. The best thing would be to try and bring Greek and Armenian families back into Asia Minor, and provide them jobs etc...a downfall to that would be if the Turkish government ever wanted to get rid of them again, we all know the CNN will somehow twist the story like they're doin' in Kosovo.

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Timos
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« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2006, 12:05:22 PM »

As for Macedonia, Makedonia was not originally a slavic area. It was originally a greek area, but later, Slavs moved in. Just because they moved on greek land, doesn't mean they can come and take it away. So you're telling that if a group of Spanishg-speaking Mexicans became the majoriy of Florida one day, it would be okay for them to claim Florida as their land?? I don't think so. If people want to move on other people's land, they can move all they wantt, but that doesn't give them the right to take it. That's why I support Serbia--just because some other people moved on their land, doesn't mean they can just whisk it away.

The southern half of the region Makedonia is in greece, the northern region of makedonia used to belong to greece, serbia, and I believe other countries...
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« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2006, 12:05:36 PM »

My opinion on this for what its worth is that Just because you belong to a faith doesn't mean that you know alot about the faith or the events attached to the faith. A good example are the "Terrorists" who go around quoting the Koran about killing people in the name of Allah and so forth. These are people who don't know what they're reading and are taking their readings at face value. They don't bother to interpret what they read, they just mindlessly chant it. So the same, I think alot of RCCs and even OCs go through their religious life without learning about any of the deeper issues that tie into their faith. As a proof, you could probably walk into any given orthodox church and interview every person there and you'll find a good number who don't know anything about the schism, or about Cyril and Methodius, or about Patriarch St. Tihkon, etc. Just because you're part of a faith doesn't mean that you embrace the faith in full knowledge of its events. I can tell you personally that while I've learned a great deal about the Orthodox Church, I can't even begin to try and imagine how many other historical events occured in her history that I am totally unaware about. it seems to be just a sad fact of educational reality.

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« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2006, 12:49:27 PM »

As for Macedonia, Makedonia was not originally a slavic area. It was originally a greek area, but later, Slavs moved in. Just because they moved on greek land, doesn't mean they can come and take it away. The southern half of the region Makedonia is in greece, the northern region of makedonia used to belong to greece, serbia, and I believe other countries...

They also like to play their cards. The most yugo-nostalgic people, when around Serbs claim to be slavs and even "south serbs" and then between themselves claim to be descendants of ancient Macedonians and try to convince eachother that Alexander the Great is their national hero Tongue . No offense meant to any Macedonians, I know the majority of you are just trying to get by, but thats just my personal experiences  Wink

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« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2006, 02:23:26 PM »

Yes, you're right, but us "non-Greeks"/fill-in-the-blank-non-ethnic-Orthodox don't have the religious ties to our ancestors as the ethnics.ÂÂ  Sure, we want to pray for other (non-EO) Christians, but we realize that they left the faith many centuries ago and don't have that religious bond that "ethnics" have back with their homeland.ÂÂ  You may not think so, but I think it makes a big difference.ÂÂ  Also, these ethnic Orthodox mother country issues are CURRENT EVENTS that CAN be changed, as opposed to injustices that happened many decades or centuries ago.


Bingo!
This was what I was kinda hoping to hear someone say---
Do the current events today have a pattern to the past? Ie: are there some solutions to solving today's problems that we have knowledge might work based what we have already learned?
I'm not sure that in this case there are- but that is why I ask.
Current events can be changed or at least the damage can hopefully be minimized....
Bloodshed anywhere is sad, and I think as Christians we have a responsibility to do the best we can to prevent loss of life.
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« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2006, 08:17:17 PM »

Quote
Yes, you're right, but us "non-Greeks"/fill-in-the-blank-non-ethnic-Orthodox don't have the religious ties to our ancestors as the ethnics.  Sure, we want to pray for other (non-EO) Christians, but we realize that they left the faith many centuries ago and don't have that religious bond that "ethnics" have back with their homeland.

Really?  In what century did my ancestors leave the faith?  To say Poles have no religious conection with their ancestry is ridiculous.  Beyond that, what of groups like Macedonians, Bulgarians or Georgians that don't have a favorable historical view of Greeks or Russians?  Are they not as Orthodox?  Then there are Copts (who are, like it or not, communed as Orthodox in many jurisdictions) - Coptic mobs caused some deal of trouble for Greeks and then there is the Justinian incident. 

Quote
As for the glory of former Poland, that doesn't count...you can still go to Poland and in all likelyhood you will hear Polish being spoken on the streets, you will see polish/Catholic churches, you will most likely eat polish food (unless you're in the capital and there's a McDonald:))

Go to Athens or Thessaloniki and I assure you that you can find modern Greek spoken and can probably find some doners...er gyros to eat.  That is the apples to apples comparison.  Modern Polish culture doesn't extend to all the former areas of Greater Poland.  Demographic and political changes happen. 

Quote
The best thing would be to try and bring Greek and Armenian families back into Asia Minor, and provide them jobs etc

So are Turks and other Muslims that were expelled from Greece during the population exchanged entitled the same in Greece?

Quote
As for Macedonia, Makedonia was not originally a slavic area. It was originally a greek area, but later, Slavs moved in. Just because they moved on greek land, doesn't mean they can come and take it away.

After a thousand years and a few major political changes most of Macedonia (the entire region) had a dominant Slavic population.  Not entirely unlike the Greeks expanding their own territory.  Greeks making terrirorial claims on what is now the Republic of Macedonia (or having their panties in a bunch over the name) is just as stupid as Macedonians having ambitions on Thessaloniki since it was once Slavic.

Quote
So you're telling that if a group of Spanishg-speaking Mexicans became the majoriy of Florida one day, it would be okay for them to claim Florida as their land?? I don't think so. If people want to move on other people's land, they can move all they wantt, but that doesn't give them the right to take it.

It is an apples to oranges comparison.  Here is an apple to apple comparison:  several hundred years from now if the United States government collapses and population in certain southern areas reflect a completely different language and culture than other states, then when no borders and such are being set it might very well make sense for them to be their own nation or part of a Latin American nation.  Ultimately though my hope is in mutli-ethnic states that can have multiple minorities - ethnic and religious - peacefully co-existing. 

Quote
They also like to play their cards. The most yugo-nostalgic people, when around Serbs claim to be slavs and even "south serbs" and then between themselves claim to be descendants of ancient Macedonians and try to convince eachother that Alexander the Great is their national hero  . No offense meant to any Macedonians, I know the majority of you are just trying to get by, but thats just my personal experiences

Of course.  I find Macedonian nationalism just as silly as any other.


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« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2006, 09:34:33 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126834#msg126834 date=1152145037]
Really?  In what century did my ancestors leave the faith?  To say Poles have no religious conection with their ancestry is ridiculous.
[/quote]
The centuries during the Reformation and Great Schism; don't try and play stupid please.  Just because they may have unknowingly done so doesn't really matter - they are not Orthodox.  If you felt so connected, maybe you wouldn't have converted to Orthodoxy.  Same with all of us converts.

I really don't see why are you are playing these stupid games.  Appealing for help for the Orthodox people of greater Serbia is a worthy cause.  Unlike the Holocaust with Jews, it hasn't been politically abused - it hasn't even really been noticed or acted upon to be abused!  When you see Serbs getting special treatment and given more than what should be due for the severely oppressed situation, then I MIGHT start to think you have a point.

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« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2006, 09:41:39 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126834#msg126834 date=1152145037]
So are Turks and other Muslims that were expelled from Greece during the population exchanged entitled the same in Greece?
[/quote]

No but we have in north eatern greece more than 100.000 Muslems. The are free, they have EU citizenship and they are growing in numbers. In turkey, constantinople had 500.000 in the 1900s,  250.000 greeks in 1950s and now 2500..... You know the stories of the 1950's and 1960's massive attacks on greek shops, rapes, kills by organised groups brought from eastern turkey to demonstrate against the Cypriot greeks?

Well, we didnt do this to the turks in greece. Thats why they are growing and thats absolutely fine.

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126834#msg126834 date=1152145037]
After a thousand years and a few major political changes most of Macedonia (the entire region) had a dominant Slavic population. 
[/quote]
oh Really? The majority?  In the early 1900s in the greek region of MAKEDONIA the majority where Moslems 40%, Greeks where about 30%, bulgarians where 20% and the remaining 10% where roumanian, serb, gypsies and Jews. 
[/quote]

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126834#msg126834 date=1152145037]
Not entirely unlike the Greeks expanding their own territory.  Greeks making terrirorial claims on what is now the Republic of Macedonia (or having their panties in a bunch over the name) is just as stupid as Macedonians having ambitions on Thessaloniki since it was once Slavic.
[/quote]

Greeks making territorial claims on FYROM?HuhHuhHuh?? Greece?   Huh Thats rediculous. We are a EU country,we dont have territorial claims. Anyway despite the name problems, our relations are good. We are the no1 investor in that country.

As for the name of course we dont agree.. And their language is what "Macedonian"? even though its a slavic language? A serb or a Bulgarian perhaps can understand it.. not a greek..whats written on the tombs and and the walls, rocks in Pella and Vergina i can read it.. can a FYROManian do so? i dont think so... Anyway this whole "Macedonian" thing FYROM has was an invention of Tito and Stalin, to invent a "macedonian nation" that would had been of course "communist" and have access to the Aegean sea..
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« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2006, 12:26:46 AM »

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The centuries during the Reformation and Great Schism; don't try and play stupid please.  Just because they may have unknowingly done so doesn't really matter - they are not Orthodox.

If you are going to make such claims as my ancestors left Orthodoxy then you should be able to back them up.  My ancestors never were Orthodox. 

Quote
If you felt so connected, maybe you wouldn't have converted to Orthodoxy.  Same with all of us converts.

I didn't know one had to change their ancestry or not be conected with their past in order to be Orthodox.

Quote
I really don't see why are you are playing these stupid games.  Appealing for help for the Orthodox people of greater Serbia is a worthy cause.

A worthy cause in your opinion.  From my vantage point it is nothing but atheistic nationalism that will only serve to hurt the Orthodox Church in the long run.  If you want a cause to support, how about Albanian Orthodox missionary work? 

Keep in mind that Western Europe also had its phase of religious nationalism.  The end result can now be seen in the deeply secularized parts of Western Europe.

Quote
Well, we didnt do this to the turks in greece. Thats why they are growing and thats absolutely fine.

Not returning mob violence to Turkish population in Greece is wonderful.  The human rights situation in modern Greece is not even comparable to Turkey.  Why I brought up what I did was to point out that if people want to bring up past wrongs against Greeks, they must also be prepared to admit that Greeks aren't entirely innocent.  This isn't just a Greek thing, challanging the "we're the innocent victims of various evil forces in the world" isn't something most people want to do (for instance google Jedwabne and see a similar thing with Polish nationalists).  My  objection to this idealogy is that it is often passed off as part of Orthodoxy in certain circles. 

Quote
Greeks making territorial claims on FYROM?

I am sorry, what I said didn't come out correctly.  I mean the Greek government's denial of the existence of a Macedonian ethnicity in Nothern Greece.  These are our brothers in the Faith, why such treatment of them and their desire to have their own language and name for their Republic? 

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« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2006, 02:35:10 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126866#msg126866 date=1152160006]
If you are going to make such claims as my ancestors left Orthodoxy then you should be able to back them up.  My ancestors never were Orthodox. 
[/quote]
I don't need to - history bears it out.  If you go back far enough, virtuall all Europeans were Orthodox.

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126866#msg126866 date=1152160006]
I didn't know one had to change their ancestry or not be conected with their past in order to be Orthodox.
[/quote]
I didn't say that - I was referring to converts such as ourselves.

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126866#msg126866 date=1152160006]
A worthy cause in your opinion.  From my vantage point it is nothing but atheistic nationalism that will only serve to hurt the Orthodox Church in the long run.  If you want a cause to support, how about Albanian Orthodox missionary work? 
[/quote]
Trying to bring to light that hundreds of churches and monasteries are being destroyed is atheistic nationalism?  Hardly.  While that may be a small element, I don't think you can ever prove that it is a large element in the plight of Serbia.  Sure, Albanian Orthodox missionary work is great...but so is trying come to the aid of persecuted Serbs.
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« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2006, 03:05:31 AM »

I think I am just sad that the RCC did not come to help in the time of crisis.
I think it is just that simple.
Wow.
It got a bit more complicated than thought it would be.
The main thing I get out of this is the RCC could have helped, and looked the other way.
That is the tragedy that stuns me.
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« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2006, 04:01:52 AM »

Dismus: For an overview read "The Fall of Constantinople" by Steven Runciman.

BrotherAidan: What say you to your specious claims?

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« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2006, 07:47:52 AM »

I think I am just sad that the RCC did not come to help in the time of crisis.
I think it is just that simple.
Wow.
It got a bit more complicated than thought it would be.
The main thing I get out of this is the RCC could have helped, and looked the other way.
That is the tragedy that stuns me.

Dismus, thanks for opening such a topic, too bad some of us went off topic.

Agia Sofia, is one of the greatest symols of Christianity, if not the greatest (this is debateable)

Agia Sofia is probably the most expensive structure ever built.

The really amazing (and strange) thing is that cathedrals the the Milan Cathedral, the Vatican, Cologne, St Pauls in London where built hundreds of years later and for took many years build. The Milan cathedral took 500 years to build, The Vatican took 109 years to build and St Pauls 35.

Agia Sofya was built in 6 years (532—37 AD)!!!!!!!!

For the construction of Agia Sofia, the finest meterials where used. They say that an angel realeaved the design plans for Agia sofia to emperor Justinian in his dreams during his sleep. There are other myths that when the workers stopped constuction late in the day, the next morning where shocked to see parts already built! They say that angels where assisting in building this stucture.

Agia sofia was the most complicated structure at its time, and the way the dome was built was unique.

Returning to your earlier posts, one of the reasons some Roman catholics dont talk about Agia Sofia, is because of ignorance. The 2 churches went thir separate ways, and in the west the orthodox have been forgotten for may years.

This is also due to the fact that The Byzantine empire, the Serbs and the other Balcan Orthodox came under Ottoman rule for 400 years. In some parts of the Ottoman empire a lot of people for forceably converted to islam. So Orthodoxy had another mission during those years. Not spreading the faith, or argueing with the RCC. But survival of the faith.

Our Russian brothers were quite far away from the west and had for some years their own stuggles. In addition, although many people say that the russian church benefitted from the soviet govenment, actually thats not true. A lot of priests where killed, and churches destroyed. But despit the ottoman rule, communism, world wars Othodoxy still stands and is stronger than ever!!

The Roman Catholics during those years, became greater in numbers, only becuase of the America and other colonies. if i am not mistaken besides parts of western Europe, mostÂÂ  Catholics are found in latin america and the US.

You mentioned that the RCC did not come to help in th time of the crisis.  if you read history of that time, the Popes, tryied to take advantage of the dying empire and theÂÂ  danger coming from the turks, and stated that they could only send help if "the churches where united". But with one more detail though. A unity under their conditions...

We had to accept the filioque, the Pope's authority and some other things. Then help could come. When the Emperor was desparate and had not other option, although strong resistance from the people and the church, the Byzantine Emperor signed the deal. Then the Pope send.... 50 men for help  Huh. He aslo started building (He decided this...during the last ottoman attacks) some ships to send supposely more help, but that was too late. ... The Byzantines with the few Latins who fought along side, had the impression that help was sent and waited for that help up until the last moment. A few days before the fall of the City, They sent a ship that escaped from the Ottoman blockage to seek any Western navy nearby, as they truly believed that help was coming.. :'(

When the ship saw no navy in the aegean, the captain instead of fleeing, took the decision to sail back and inform the Emperor Konstantine! When they came back, the informed the Emperor, and he started crying.. There was no hope. The "Vasileuousa", the queen of all Cities, The center of Christianism and Agia SofiaÂÂ  was ready to fall forever.

Thats when they did the last service in AGIA SOFIA, where everyone asked forgiveness from each other. And ran to the walls to meet there proud ancestors.. :'(




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« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2006, 07:59:18 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126866#msg126866 date=1152160006]

I am sorry, what I said didn't come out correctly.  I mean the Greek government's denial of the existence of a Macedonian ethnicity in Nothern Greece.  These are our brothers in the Faith, why such treatment of them and their desire to have their own language and name for their Republic? 

[/quote]

There simply is no Macedonian ethnicity in Northern Greece. There are however, people of Bulgarian descent who now believe the propaganda of the recently created FYROM and think they are ethnic Macedonians. I remember some years ago seeing census data for Southern Yugoslavia in the 1920's or 30's. There were no 'Macedonians' but there was a sizeable Bulgarian population. Census data for FYROM after the 2nd world war abruptly has NO Bulgarians (where did they all go?) and a sizeable 'Macedonian" population. It seems pretty obvious what happened.

John
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« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2006, 08:16:40 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126866#msg126866 date=1152160006]
I am sorry, what I said didn't come out correctly.ÂÂ  I mean the Greek government's denial of the existence of a Macedonian ethnicity in Nothern Greece.ÂÂ  These are our brothers in the Faith, why such treatment of them and their desire to have their own language and name for their Republic?ÂÂ  
[/quote]

What "Macedonian" ethicity?.. There is no such thing as Macedonian ethnicity. There is a temporary name for them, FYROM

But there are talks between the nations are there, and we shall know soon.

Why dont u ask a Greek Macedonian how he feels about this? Since when a non-greek country can reserve a greek NAME SUCH AS "MAKEDONIA"? do they know what the word Macedonia means? of course not..because its a greek name, as what the ancient Macedonians WERE. You can see that in the bible to. Why dont you aks them to translate what THESSALONIKI means. Or Alexander (Alexandros). They wont, because Macedonians spoke Greek,not slavic.

They are our brothers in faith, and they have every rigtht for a name and a language. But call it somehtingÂÂ  that doesnt "rewrite" history..

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« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2006, 11:23:52 AM »

See the Church of Holy Wisdom it its glory:

http://www.byzantium1200.com/hagia.html


Makes me want to cry.
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« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2006, 12:00:07 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg126943#msg126943 date=1152199432]
See the Church of Holy Wisdom it its glory:

http://www.byzantium1200.com/hagia.html


Makes me want to cry.
[/quote]


Me too.How can RCC call Orthodox "sister church" and "other lung" when you would never do this to your sister or your other lung.
It seems very phony that they try to make it sound like there has always been a strong loving connection there.
On top of forcing a document to be signed under duress and that is not in good faith, litterally!
Yes, it is the past, yes it is sad, but the treachery of the RCC in their actions during this crisis of terrible proportion is ....
Not CHRISTIAN.
Isn't it in the book of John somewhere ....if you treat the brother you can see badly how do you treat the one you did not see?
I can't recall the verse exactly now... someone else may know it...
So, if I understand this right- they wanted to "take control" of Hagia Sophia for the price of a forced contract and 50 men to "help"?
That is outrageous. Ok, I don't want to know anymore I'll bug off the thread I think, it is not something I think I will ever grasp as it seems so evil to me not to aid your friend at a time of crisis. It would have been something they easily could have done without conditions and (blackmail?) ....
Why not help out if for no other reason to help curb the Islam epidemic?
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« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2006, 12:05:56 PM »

I believe in "70 X 7" ; the Pope has apologized. Too bad there is no Sultan to do the same.
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« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2006, 12:11:53 PM »

Quote
Why dont u ask a Greek Macedonian how he feels about this? Since when a non-greek country can reserve a greek NAME SUCH AS "MAKEDONIA"? do they know what the word Macedonia means? of course not..because its a greek name, as what the ancient Macedonians WERE. You can see that in the bible to. Why dont you aks them to translate what THESSALONIKI means. Or Alexander (Alexandros). They wont, because Macedonians spoke Greek,not slavic.


I agree 101%, I am completely confused by their attempt to restore the "Macedonian Identity" when they are majority slavic, and Maceodnians were greeks. BUT, I also have a heard time understanding why you would go as far as to burning their flags, which IRONICALLY are Greek flags.

Quote
A worthy cause in your opinion.  From my vantage point it is nothing but atheistic nationalism that will only serve to hurt the Orthodox Church in the long run.  If you want a cause to support, how about Albanian Orthodox missionary work? ÂÂ


Of course you are right to a certain degree. But this is no different in countries that are traditionally Orthodox. Russians, Ukrainians, Serbs, Greeks alike. People will do things "In the name of the Orthodox Church", but are nothing more than oppurtunists or posers. Serb Nationalism may have gone out of control in some people, but it is what has kept us alive after 500 years of Muslim rule, WW1, WW2, Balkan Wars. Without Serb Nationalism, the Serbian Church would not exist because the Serbian race would not exist. As a result, we have "Orthodox Christians" and Orthodox Christians, But better that than no Orthodox Christians at all. Abandoning our "Serbism" would result in the extermination of the people. It would not be dying for our faith, it would be giving up on our faith. Allowing for the extermination of our race would be a type of suicide.
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« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2006, 03:14:05 PM »


I agree 101%, I am completely confused by their attempt to restore the "Macedonian Identity" when they are majority slavic, and Maceodnians were greeks. BUT, I also have a heard time understanding why you would go as far as to burning their flags, which IRONICALLY are Greek flags.

i dont agree with burning flags of ANY nation
There are always extreme people everywhere...i havent seen anyone burn a FYROM flag, but i cant assume that hasnt happen 15 years ago during the protest marches..
 But during  protests in greece sometimes there are people (a small group of left wing anarchists usually) that burn the greek or the american flag..so what is to stop these people burning a FYROM one? or any other?
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« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2006, 03:21:53 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg126951#msg126951 date=1152201956]
I believe in "70 X 7" ; the Pope has apologized. Too bad there is no Sultan to do the same.
[/quote]

Yes, it is too bad no Sultan has. And bad PR for them in the process by not doing so. How can they expect converts to Islam when they are like this?
I'm glad in a way they have not apologized- maybe this is saving people from the false religion of Islam.
But, I guess God's plan is a mystery to us and we must accept there is a reason for all of this we just don't understand nor need to. You are right- forgiveness has no number attatched to it. And with that example, Orthodox Christians are showing themselves to be a "billboard" for Christ's teaching on forgiveness!
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« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2006, 04:08:00 PM »

What "Macedonian" ethicity?.. There is no such thing as Macedonian ethnicity. There is a temporary name for them, FYROM

The Slavs of FYROM have found a new ethnicity for themselves after previously being classified with Serbs or Bulgarians. However, the situation with the Slavs living in northern Greece is different. They have been there since the Age of Migrations. They can't be Bulgarians since they were never within the Kingdom of Bulgaria and didn't have the contact with the Bolgars that created a distinctly Bulgarian nation. So what name should they choose for themselves? The best name is "Macedonian Slavs", because they are Slavs living on the territory called Macedonia. In discussions about Slavic history and Slavonic linguistics, there is no need to use the word "Slavs", for that is understood, so these Slavs of northern Greece are often called simply "Macedonians".

Quote
Or Alexander (Alexandros). They wont, because Macedonians spoke Greek,not slavic.

While Alexander would have spoken Greek, since the Macedonian royalty was fond of the Greek language, many historians believe that the peons of Macedonia spoke a language that was not mutually intelligible with Greek. The attempt of Greeks to claim the entire Macedonian population, instead of just its aristocracy, strikes most scholars are totally ignorant nationalism.
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« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2006, 04:37:08 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg126943#msg126943 date=1152199432]
See the Church of Holy Wisdom it its glory:

http://www.byzantium1200.com/hagia.html


Makes me want to cry.
[/quote]

If you want to know... it still looks pretty awesome (despite the minarets).  The only thing missing is the Atrium (well, and the hundreds of hundreds of crosses that the moslems dismantled from the walls and such of the Church).  It is a sight to behold.
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« Reply #73 on: July 06, 2006, 04:37:23 PM »

Quote
The attempt of Greeks to claim the entire Macedonian population, instead of just its aristocracy, strikes most scholars are totally ignorant nationalism.
I think it is the illogical consequence of the revisionism coming out of Skopje.

Unfortunately for the Greeks, much of the world is now accepting the rubbish being spewed from "Macedonia".
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« Reply #74 on: July 06, 2006, 05:03:21 PM »

If you want to know... it still looks pretty awesome (despite the minarets).  The only thing missing is the Atrium (well, and the hundreds of hundreds of crosses that the moslems dismantled from the walls and such of the Church).  It is a sight to behold.

I know. And I've spent hours with PaintShop Pro and Adobe PhotoShop removing those things -gotten pretty good at erasing them and also cleaning up photos of the interior. Too bad I altered copywrited photos or I'd post them somewhere.  Shocked
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« Reply #75 on: July 06, 2006, 05:07:00 PM »

I think it is the illogical consequence of the revisionism coming out of Skopje.

Unfortunately for the Greeks, much of the world is now accepting the rubbish being spewed from "Macedonia".

Sadly, true on both accounts. However I have never heard what these ancient Makedonians spoke seeing as they preceeded the Slavs by 1100 years or more. 'Hillybilly' Greek  Grin

Tito invented 'Macedonia' to give his captive Bulgars an identity they both could live with. At least, I think it was Tito, but in any case it happened after WWI with the new borders.
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« Reply #76 on: July 06, 2006, 05:27:46 PM »

Ok If you want the scientific explanation, for the people you call "macedonian slavs", I can give them to you through genetic research...I'm sure most of you wont be surprised, I wasnt.

Greeks

EU18 - 28%
EU4 - 22%
EU9 - 21%
Eu19 - 12%
EU7 - 8%

"Macedonians"

EU19 - 35%
Eu7 - 20%
EU9 - 15%
EU4 - 15%
EU18 - 10%
EU10 - 5%

What does this mean you ask, well I'm no pro but I have a basic understanding that the EU is a genetic strand genetisists use to differentiates the origins of the people. So here the Legend:

EU18 -  Eastern European Origin, but now considered Latins (Portugal, Spain, Italy, France etc...)
EU4 - North African, Moorish
EU9/10 - Jewish, Semitic (Middle East)
Eu19 - Eastern European Origin, recently relocated to Europe (Slavic countries)
EU7 - Viking, Epi-Gravettian

Keep in mind that this is LOOOOOOOONG before you had real civilizations, we're talking ice age time. So dont be surprised if it says somehting like 33% of greeks are from middle east, this isnt RECENTLY.

So, as you can (hopefully) make out, Macedonians are indeed "slavic", but only about 1/3. The rest is very similar to Greeks, meaning that the current macedonians are a mish mash, mostly slavic mixed with smaller groups including greeks.

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf
http://dnaconsultants.com/images/links/49-conversion.pdf
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« Reply #77 on: July 06, 2006, 05:34:27 PM »

Ok If you want the scientific explanation, for the people you call "macedonian slavs", I can give them to you through genetic research...I'm sure most of you wont be surprised, I wasnt.

Genetics is really irrelevant to the discussion. If you have a community of people speaking the same language and having a shared history apart from other peoples, it makes sense to group them. The Macedonian Slavs (those living in Macedonia in Greece) are a distinct community  regardless of their genes.
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« Reply #78 on: July 06, 2006, 05:38:06 PM »

Genetics is really irrelevant to the discussion. If you have a community of people speaking the same language and having a shared history apart from other peoples, it makes sense to group them. The Macedonian Slavs (those living in Macedonia in Greece) are a distinct communityÂÂ  regardless of their genes.

well....I just wanted to clarify that for some people, because I'm sure there are people that think macedonians are all slavs and have no connection with Greeks, and I'm sure some people believe Macedonians are direct descendants of the Greeks. This proves that it is more complicated than it may seem. If genetically, they were 80% identical to Greeks, they should have the right to call it Macedonia and the citizens Macedonians, you know what I mean?
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« Reply #79 on: July 06, 2006, 07:59:35 PM »

The Slavs of FYROM have found a new ethnicity for themselves after previously being classified with Serbs or Bulgarians. However, the situation with the Slavs living in northern Greece is different. They have been there since the Age of Migrations. They can't be Bulgarians since they were never within the Kingdom of Bulgaria and didn't have the contact with the Bolgars that created a distinctly Bulgarian nation. So what name should they choose for themselves? The best name is "Macedonian Slavs", because they are Slavs living on the territory called Macedonia. In discussions about Slavic history and Slavonic linguistics, there is no need to use the word "Slavs", for that is understood, so these Slavs of northern Greece are often called simply "Macedonians".


The slavs have found a new ethnicity for themselves.. And they decided that to be Mecedonian, just because some of them moved a long time agoÂÂ  into the Macedonian region??? So if another group of slavs(or whateverelse) lived around Athens, they could form a nation called "Athenians" right? That would make them Great decendents of Pericleus, Miltiadis, Socrates and Plato as well? Their slavic lanuage would be "Athenian"?

SO if the Slavs who live NORTH of greece (not in northern greece) are simply "macedonians", what makes the greeks that originate from the macedonian region? Or the small number of greeks that live in FYROM?
Because if Slavs live in Northern greece, they are GREEK Citizens. Because OFFICIALLY according to treaties signed last century If they are a minority, then they are either of Serbian, Bulgarian or Muslem descendency. And at the time when the treties where signed, the FYROM region was called VARDARSKA.. It became "macedonia" later as Stalin and Tito decided to rewrite history for the sake of communism


While Alexander would have spoken Greek, since the Macedonian royalty was fond of the Greek language, many historians believe that the peons of Macedonia spoke a language that was not mutually intelligible with Greek. The attempt of Greeks to claim the entire Macedonian population, instead of just its aristocracy, strikes most scholars are totally ignorant nationalism.

So which Historians actually say this and believe this? First of all ALL greeks spoke GREEK including Macedonians. But every region had a few words or an accent/dialect that is characteristic to that region. It was always like that, and it is toay like that. This is not found only in Greece, but inevery Nation. Pontic Greek has its characteristics, Cypriot Greek, Thessalian, Pelloponitian, Cretan,ÂÂ  Epirian, Trackian, Minor Asian, Konstinopolitan(when greeks were around) and Macedonian of course. This is a cheap excuse claimed by people so they can separate Macedonia from the other regions. Why dont they make the same fuss fro Trakia or Thessalia or Epirus which neibour macedonia? Where they more Greek than Macedonians?? No but its nice to suddenly claim that Alexander was their ancestor and maybe was a slav.. That when the bible speaks of Macedonians, the people of FYROM (actually 70-80% of them because the remaining 20-30% are albanians..) can relate to this.. Even though the PROTO-Slavs arrived at the SOUTH part of the balcans more than 700+ years later

How could macedonians spoke a different language, when their writting was in greek, when they participated in the olympic games(ONLY GREEKS WHERE ALLOWED IN THE GAMES), their names where Greek. It must of been Greek based dialect right?

Not only the nobles decended from the Greeks.... First of all Alexanders's great ancestor Perdiccas (the first Macedonian King) had moved to the region from Argos and established cities and people from Argos moved there. And people from other regions moved there.ÂÂ  Nearby cities, where cities established by the Athenians (chalkidiki) and cities built by other Greeks..

People make it sound that Macedonia is a far away region but is very close to south Greece,in the past it took only a day or 2 by hourse to get there.. Mount Olympus is in Macedonia (borders with Thessaly).

There is this false impression that ancient Macedonia was mostly the part that FYROM owns today, but FYROM is what was regarded as north part of Macedonia. The heart of Macedonia was the region that belongs today to Greece. Where all ancient ruins display clearly (as well as the ones found in FYROM) magnificent GREEK architecture
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« Reply #80 on: July 06, 2006, 08:22:59 PM »

The slavs have found a new ethnicity for themselves.. And they decided that to be Mecedonian, just because some of them moved a long time ago  into the Macedonian region??? So if another group of slavs(or whateverelse) lived around Athens, they could form a nation called "Athenians" right? That would make them Great decendents of Pericleus, Miltiadis, Socrates and Plato as well? Their slavic lanuage would be "Athenian"?

Sure, that's perfectly valid. After all, the inhabitants of Britain are called "Brits" even though their language comes from southern Denmark and they have few cultural ties to the people of ancient Britannia. People in Spain (from Phonecian "ishpan-") are called Spaniards even though they speak a Romance language that was introduced later. When people move into a territory, they tend to retain the name that was there before.

Quote
SO if the Slavs who live NORTH of greece (not in northern greece) are simply "macedonians", what makes the greeks that originate from the macedonian region? Or the small number of greeks that live in FYROM?

I'm speaking of the Slavs that live within the border of Greece. They are Macedonian Slavs. Greek speakers living in Macedonia are, of course, Greek Macedonians.

Quote
Because if Slavs live in Northern greece, they are GREEK Citizens.

One's citizenship does not determine one's ethnicity.

Quote
Because OFFICIALLY according to treaties signed last century If they are a minority, then they are either of Serbian, Bulgarian or Muslem descendency.

Having the Slavs of Greek Macedonia identify with the Serbs or Bulgarians was forced upon them because they were too small a community to be counted in their own right. It was an unjust situation. Thessaloniki, for example, was once home to a significant Slavic population in its hinterlands. Byzantine Emperor Michael III told St Cyril that a Thessalonian was an ideal missionary because "all Thessalonians speak perfect Slavonic" (see the Vita). Yet, the Bulgarians insist that the Slavs there were Bulgarians. How could they be? They were never within the Kingdom of Bulgaria. They spoke a dialect of Slavonic different from that of Bulgaria. Ditto for Serbia. The Slavs living inside Greece since the Age of Migrations are a distinct people. They are not Serbs or Bulgarians, and it's a pity FYROM got the name that it did, because the "Macedonians" of FYROM (really just reclassified Serbs or Bulgarians) are not the same as the Macedonian Slavs of nothern Greece.

Quote
How could macedonians spoke a different language, when their writting was in greek, when they participated in the olympic games(ONLY GREEKS WHERE ALLOWED IN THE GAMES), their names where Greek. It must of been Greek based dialect right?

The language of the aristocracy is not necessarily the same as that of the peons.
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« Reply #81 on: July 06, 2006, 08:23:59 PM »


Me too.How can RCC call Orthodox "sister church" and "other lung" when you would never do this to your sister or your other lung.

Different times, different people, different language.  Over time things have changed.  One should always try to remember the historical times and context of an eventl.

Ebor
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« Reply #82 on: July 06, 2006, 08:26:17 PM »

the "Macedonians" of FYROM (really just reclassified Serbs or Bulgarians) are not the same as the Macedonian Slavs of nothern Greece.

I'm afraid I disagree with just that one claim... so what are they if they arent the Macedonians from Fyrom?
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« Reply #83 on: July 06, 2006, 08:48:39 PM »

I'm afraid I disagree with just that one claim... so what are they if they arent the Macedonians from Fyrom?

They are Slavs from Greek Macedonia.
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« Reply #84 on: July 06, 2006, 09:11:51 PM »

They are Slavs from Greek Macedonia.

Are you saying they are Slavs, but somehow distinct from both Bulgars AND Serbs?  If so, I think that is quite unlikely.

Surely you know of the Bulgarian influence in the region, not to mention the reign of Tsar Dusan who conquered well into Greece, making the likelihood of those who remain ancestors of either Serbs or Bulgars.

Linguistically, I've found some interesting things with the Slavs of Northern Greece.

For example...

Serbian:  Gde si  - Where are you

FYROM:   Kaj si 

Polog Valley (North Fyrom - Serbian border); Deka Si

Northern Greece (Slavs); Deja Si

The only really unique version is the "pure" FYROM version.  The others look and sound very Serbian.

Similarly....

Serbian:   Sta = What?  (pronounced shta)

FYROM & North Greece Slavs:   So (pronounced sho)

North FYROM:  Sto (pronounced Shto) - a mix of the two.
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« Reply #85 on: July 06, 2006, 09:12:22 PM »

Sure, that's perfectly valid. After all, the inhabitants of Britain are called "Brits" even though their language comes from southern Denmark and they have few cultural ties to the people of ancient Britannia. People in Spain (from Phonecian "ishpan-") are called Spaniards even though they speak a Romance language that was introduced later. When people move into a territory, they tend to retain the name that was there before.

There is a big difference here my friend . the situation in macedonia can not be related at all with Britain or Spain. First of all after the fall of Macedonia to the Romans, there was never a kindom of macedonia, for people of non-greek identity to mix or overpopulate and rule the kingdom with the macedonian identity. Macedonia was maily Byzantine, with a few small gaps of Serbian and Bulgarian rule. Then came the Ottoman empire. Of course there where population shifts in the region, but it never lost its Greek identity. So how can the slavs of macedonia not relate to the srbs or Bulgarians that where always the neibouring nations? Who travelled within the ottoman empire? If they where not greek, or muslem (that where the majority in the big cities in macedonia during the ottoman times) they where of serbian or bulgarian decendancy.

I'm speaking of the Slavs that live within the border of Greece. They are Macedonian Slavs. Greek speakers living in Macedonia are, of course, Greek Macedonians.
yes geographically they can be called slavomacedonian.ÂÂ  But macedonian as an ethnicity not. Because there is none.
And u speak about slavs in northern greece. There are very very few. Mainly in villages bordering FYROM. But there are a few greeks (like the falmily of a friend of mine) living in these villages who's grandparents speak slavic, but are Greeks.

One's citizenship does not determine one's ethnicity.

i couldnt agree more. When there is an ethnicity ofcourse

Having the Slavs of Greek Macedonia identify with the Serbs or Bulgarians was forced upon them because they were too small a community to be counted in their own right. It was an unjust situation. Thessaloniki, for example, was once home to a significant Slavic population in its hinterlands. Byzantine Emperor Michael III told St Cyril that a Thessalonian was an ideal missionary because "all Thessalonians speak perfect Slavonic" (see the Vita). Yet, the Bulgarians insist that the Slavs there were Bulgarians. How could they be? They were never within the Kingdom of Bulgaria. They spoke a dialect of Slavonic different from that of Bulgaria. Ditto for Serbia. The Slavs living inside Greece since the Age of Migrations are a distinct people. They are not Serbs or Bulgarians, and it's a pity FYROM got the name that it did, because the "Macedonians" of FYROM (really just reclassified Serbs or Bulgarians) are not the same as the Macedonian Slavs of nothern Greece.


Excuse me whichÂÂ  Macedonian Slavs of nothern Greece are we talking about? a few maybe thousand that live in villages in Florina, or kastoria close to the borders with FYROM? And even these people,if not greek, i am sure if they go realy back they will find ancestry as either Serbian or Bulgarian or even Vlach.

How can they be distinct people, who says this? Didnt they come from serbia, bulgaria, russia or Roumania? Or did they appear out of nowhere? Or maybe under Bugarian or Serbian rule they where justÂÂ  slavic speaking greeks? Because the Bulgarians during their rule did try to cut from the greeks the connection with Greece and the Bulgarian church tried to establich an exarchate in greek macedonia. They even took over (by force) mount Athos.

i maybe not getting you, but the whole "macedonian" issue doesnt come from a few thousand slavomacedonians in Greece..It comes from FYROM...


The language of the aristocracy is not necessarily the same as that of the peons.
But ethnicity is there in the case of the ancient Macedonians
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« Reply #86 on: July 06, 2006, 09:17:51 PM »

i maybe not getting you, but the whole "macedonian" issue doesnt come from a few thousand slavomacedonians in Greece..It comes from FYROM...

NO IT DOESN'T!!!  IT COMES FROM MY IDIOT BROTHER-IN-LAW!!!! Grin Grin Grin Grin

Sadly, that is not even a joke (but that is an entire topic onto itself).  Wink
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« Reply #87 on: July 07, 2006, 12:11:19 AM »

Re: the language thing...

It's a dialect continuum.  So obviously the language classifications based upon standard national languages are going to have overlap and be inherently political.  Still if someone wishes to identity their native language as South Slavic but based on neither the standard of Belgrade nor Sofia - why try to deny them that?

What I really am curious about is why so many Greeks, Serbs, and Bulgarians seem to feel almost threatened by a Macedonian ethnicity and language?  Most of the claims being ascribed to Macedonians here are fabriacations of the mainstream and acedemic histories being put forth from Macedonia - i.e that they are Slavs and hence have no ethnic connection to the ancient macedonians.

I am honestly fascinated by this discussion.  There is such a strong and dogmatic belief in the the history and mythology of the nationstate - Macedonia is Greek, Kosovo is Serbia (or Macedonian nationalists that want to deny any Greek heritage to Macedonia) etc. without any care for the multicultural histories or present situations for these regions nor for their current lack of homogeneous populations.

And I'm American, an ethnicity that certainly didn't exist until recently, but I highly doubt that anyone would say that I'm not an American.     


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« Reply #88 on: July 07, 2006, 01:00:51 AM »

Thanks for twisting this yet further, kind Νεκταριος  Wink

Some present day (pd-) Greeks are descended from ancient Macedonians be they in pd-Greek Macedonia or the FYROM.

Some in both pd-Greek Macedonia and in FYROM are Slavs and/or Bulgars by ancestry.

I guess the rub is that pd-Greeks claim the ancient Macedonians as Greeks; and the pd-FYROM wishes to, what, claim they are descended from non-Greek Macedonians (who couldn't be Slavs or Bulgars)?

This is fun. Where is Canmak?

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« Reply #89 on: July 07, 2006, 01:09:30 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg127076#msg127076 date=1152245479]
Re: the language thing...

It's a dialect continuum.ÂÂ  So obviously the language classifications based upon standard national languages are going to have overlap and be inherently political.ÂÂ  Still if someone wishes to identity their native language as South Slavic but based on neither the standard of Belgrade nor Sofia - why try to deny them that?
[/quote]

Not that I'm going to claim Macedonians as south serbs (although it is definitly debatable), but the current macedonian language that Serbs cant really understand, is infact VERY similar (if not nearly identical, I dont know, I didnt live 1000 years ago) to Old Serbian, spoken before and during Ottoman rule. How do I know this? Well Serbs know about old serbian words that arent used today, but thanks to my good old friend Martin, I find out that those ancient words are being used by Macedonians. For example, razbiraj (understand) alal vera (good job) and many others. Theres also a movie if I may recall (maybe a Serb/Macedonian on this forum has seen it) called Zora Zamfira (sp?) which is a serbian movie, but one that when released in Serbia, audiences asked for subtitles because some points they couldnt understand. The story took play looooong ago, hence them speaking some form of Macedonian. This is just my interpretation, that their language is some form of Old Serbian, atleast from what I think. But I have no idea how Bulgarian relates, except my friend told me they understand Serbian much better than Bulgarian.

Deny? No one is denying their tongue. In serbia its called Makedonski, not like they call it Old serbian or anything. BUt my point is that its not merely a dialect, theirs something more to it.

Quote
What I really am curious about is why so many Greeks, Serbs, and Bulgarians seem to feel almost threatened by a Macedonian ethnicity and language?

 Huh Huh Huh Huh I can speak for Serbs but not for Greeks or Bulgarians. We are one of the few countries to actually recognize their name, Macedonia, although I feel we shouldnt, in respect to our Greek brothers. Serbia actually has very good relations with Macedonia.

Quote
(or Macedonian nationalists that want to deny any Greek heritage to Macedonia)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Macedonian nationalists acknowledge themselves to be the descendants of ancint Macedonians (and Alexander), thus actually believing they are of North Greek descent. Then you have the ones that claim to be South Serbs....

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