Author Topic: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?  (Read 28320 times)

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Offline sdcheung

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #180 on: August 24, 2006, 02:01:17 PM »
I thought this was an explicitly un-Orthodox idea and that is why the Eastern Orthodox Churches reject the idea of Original Sin.

I'm talking about the fourth crusade.

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Offline sdcheung

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #181 on: August 24, 2006, 02:01:59 PM »
I don't own any of the spoils of the sack. :)

Your Church does .. and take a walk around Venice.

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Offline sdcheung

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #182 on: August 24, 2006, 02:03:13 PM »
I am going to ask a question and I know in print that it will appear sarcastic. However, that is not what I mean by it. I am not being sarcastic. I serioiusly want to know if you are being serious or if you are teasing me. So, are you serious?

Serious.

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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #183 on: August 24, 2006, 02:24:03 PM »
Well, I must say that I disagree with the actions of His Holiness Pope John Paul II of blessed memory, on this matter because he is not capable of apologizing for something he did not do, nor was done under his authority. Furthermore, he cannot know if the Catholics who sacked constantinople were repentant or not. I hope to God that they were. Rather, I think that His Holiness should simply point out that he condemns the actions taken by those Catholics who did sack constantinople and that such actions are contrary to the Catholic Faith.

Well, at the least, you are honest. Your new pope wants the Church to come together as It was in the first 1000 years (we'd prefer the first 800 - 900), but folks like both you and I will be impediments.
'Corporate' admissions of past sins do matter. In my lifetime I have seen "Germany" finally come to grips (if nothing else admitting culpability) with its dismal past in the last century and the Turks NOT doing the same. Japan is finally facing its past and the USA its era of racism.
When our Coptic friends decry the treatment of 'them' in the 5th/6th century by the empire and the Church I do not deny the wrongdoing (but do not apologize because they usually lump an admission that they were/are not theologically justified into said requested apology - something I'm not prepared to do). But I do not bring up the counter persecutions of the Romans they supported after the Muslim arrival, as a defense either or say "I wasn't there" or, as I get often "Get over it".

sdcheung is correct - never.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #184 on: August 24, 2006, 02:48:16 PM »
WEll, I did not intend for this thread to get nasty, I was just trying to argue for the idea "Can't we all just get along". LOL. I guess we can't. :D Just kidding. Well, you are all, of course entitled to your opions as am I. I am just a little Catholic Layman.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #185 on: August 24, 2006, 02:50:52 PM »
WEll, I did not intend for this thread to get nasty, I was just trying to argue for the idea "Can't we all just get along". LOL. I guess we can't. :D Just kidding. Well, you are all, of course entitled to your opions as am I. I am just a little Catholic Layman.

And, without prior knowledge on your part, you have tangled with OC.net's two biggest reactionaries here on this issue  :)
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Veniamin

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #186 on: August 24, 2006, 02:54:41 PM »
Your Church does .. and take a walk around Venice.

Darn it, you beat me to that one. :P
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #187 on: August 24, 2006, 02:59:43 PM »
Darn it, you beat me to that one. :P
Well, Veniamin, you could say Venice and many other places as in all over France.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #188 on: August 24, 2006, 02:59:56 PM »
[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg132948#msg132948 date=1156445452]
And, without prior knowledge on your part, you have tangled with OC.net's two biggest reactionaries here on this issue  :)
[/quote]
LOL :)
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #189 on: August 24, 2006, 03:44:43 PM »
[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg132952#msg132952 date=1156445983]
Well, Veniamin, you could say Venice and many other places as in all over France.
[/quote]

You know it's a sad state of affairs when to venerate Orthodox relics and see Orthodox treasures, you have to go to Latin churches.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #190 on: August 24, 2006, 03:46:41 PM »
You know it's a sad state of affairs when to venerate Orthodox relics and see Orthodox treasures, you have to go to Latin churches.

But the RCs for the most part don't KNOW that!
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #191 on: August 24, 2006, 03:48:17 PM »
[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg132965#msg132965 date=1156448801]
But the RCs for the most part don't KNOW that!
[/quote]

More to the point, they don't really care.  Ignorance may or may not be bliss, but it is one heck of a security blanket.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #192 on: August 24, 2006, 03:54:56 PM »
Very and sadly true.
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Papist

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #193 on: August 24, 2006, 05:47:53 PM »
More to the point, they don't really care.  Ignorance may or may not be bliss, but it is one heck of a security blanket.
You know that I think it goes both ways. I am afraid to get into this because I bet tempers will flair, but I have been told that there are Catholic Churches in the former Soviet Union that were taken away from Catholics during communist rule and given to the Russian Orthodox Chruch. Many have still not been returned. There is plenty of blame to go around on both sides. However, is that what we should focus on, or rather should we be trying to fix the schism?
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Offline sdcheung

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #194 on: August 24, 2006, 05:51:17 PM »
You know that I think it goes both ways. I am afraid to get into this because I bet tempers will flair, but I have been told that there are Catholic Churches in the former Soviet Union that were taken away from Catholics during communist rule and given to the Russian Orthodox Chruch. Many have still not been returned. There is plenty of blame to go around on both sides. However, is that what we should focus on, or rather should we be trying to fix the schism?

Then who told you "catholics" to "build" on another shepherds work?

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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #195 on: August 24, 2006, 05:53:36 PM »
Then who told you "catholics" to "build" on another shepherds work?

Ouch!

Its just diversionary argumentaive technique, Fotis
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Offline sdcheung

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #196 on: August 24, 2006, 05:55:16 PM »
[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg133005#msg133005 date=1156456416]
Ouch!

Its just diversionary argumentaive technique, Fotis
[/quote]

I know Aristokles Megale.

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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #197 on: August 24, 2006, 05:58:28 PM »
I know Aristokles Megale.

Very good, show-off  :D
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #198 on: August 24, 2006, 06:00:38 PM »
You know that I think it goes both ways. I am afraid to get into this because I bet tempers will flair, but I have been told that there are Catholic Churches in the former Soviet Union that were taken away from Catholics during communist rule and given to the Russian Orthodox Chruch. Many have still not been returned. There is plenty of blame to go around on both sides. However, is that what we should focus on, or rather should we be trying to fix the schism?

It's a moot point.  Once we convert all of you back the Faith, they'll be our churches again anyway. :P
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Offline Papist

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #199 on: August 24, 2006, 06:02:41 PM »
Then who told you "catholics" to "build" on another shepherds work?
My friend, the Eastern Orthodox Church is one Church. The Catholic Church another. Since only one of the two can be the Church established by Jesus, that Church has the responsibility to evangelize the other out of love. Because you believe the Eastern Orthodox Church to be the Church, I would expect that you believe that the Eastern Orthodox should spread their faith around the world, even where there are already Catholic Churches. Since I believe that the Catholic Church is the the true Church, I believe that Catholics should spread their faith around the world, even where there are already Eastern Orthodox Churches. Thus, just as you must evangelize, so must we, and  we must do so everywhere, even in Russia. Just as you believe that you have the fulness of the faith, so do we. Thus, Russia is not out the question for the establishment of Catholic Churches. BTW, have you seen pictures of the Eastern Orthodox Church (is it a Cathedral?) being built in ROME (another shepherds work)? ;D It is an absolutely beautiful temple.
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Offline sdcheung

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #200 on: August 24, 2006, 06:05:19 PM »
My friend, the Eastern Orthodox Church is one Church. The Catholic Church another. Since only one of the two can be the Church established by Jesus, that Church has the responsibility to evangelize the other out of love. Because you believe the Eastern Orthodox Church to be the Church, I would expect that you believe that the Eastern Orthodox should spread their faith around the world, even where there are already Catholic Churches. Since I believe that the Catholic Church is the the true Church, I believe that Catholics should spread their faith around the world, even where there are already Eastern Orthodox Churches. Thus, just as you must evangelize, so must we, and  we must do so everywhere, even in Russia. Just as you believe that you have the fulness of the faith, so do we. Thus, Russia is not out the question for the establishment of Catholic Churches. BTW, have you seen pictures of the Eastern Orthodox Church (is it a Cathedral?) being built in ROME (another shepherds work)? ;D It is an absolutely beautiful temple.


You have the West.
We have the East, lets leave it at that. Btw our Churches in the west were for the Diaspora, but through the providence of God, we gained Converts from protestantism and Papal "Catholicism".

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Offline Papist

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #201 on: August 24, 2006, 06:06:46 PM »
It's a moot point.  Once we convert all of you back the Faith, they'll be our churches again anyway. :P
;D Looks like you are a person I can respect. I love your wit. Of course I have to say, when you guys come back to the Catholic Church you can start painting icons in honor of the immaculate conception.  :D
(btw, I am not being a Jerk. This is playful banter).
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #202 on: August 24, 2006, 06:09:30 PM »
No, there is one Church. You're either in it or not. WE are the Catholic Church - you guys, Roman Cs
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Offline Papist

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #203 on: August 24, 2006, 06:10:49 PM »

You have the West.
We have the East, lets leave it at that. Btw our Churches in the west were for the Diaspora, but through the providence of God, we gained Converts from protestantism and Papal "Catholicism".
And we could say that by the grace of God we have gained converts from Eastern Orthodoxy, but I do not believe that that is a respectful way to deal with Eastern Orthodox Christians who I believe to be my brothers and sisters in Christ. We can disagree respectfuly my friend. I will never put quotation marks around Orthodoxy when discussing your Churches because I have enough respect to call your church by its name, enough if I disagree with some of the teachings of your Church. Remeber, you attract more flies with honey than vinegar.
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #204 on: August 24, 2006, 06:11:55 PM »
[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg133019#msg133019 date=1156457370]
No, there is one Church. You're either in it or not. WE are the Catholic Church - you guys, Roman Cs
[/quote]

As my recently retired priest put it, the Roman Catholic Church is neither Catholic nor the Church...so it should properly be called the Roman Religious Organization.
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Offline sdcheung

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #205 on: August 24, 2006, 06:13:09 PM »
As my recently retired priest put it, the Roman Catholic Church is neither Catholic nor the Church...so it should properly be called the Roman Religious Organization.

i can live with that.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 06:13:20 PM by sdcheung »

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Offline Papist

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #206 on: August 24, 2006, 06:14:13 PM »
[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg133019#msg133019 date=1156457370]
No, there is one Church. You're either in it or not. WE are the Catholic Church - you guys, Roman Cs
[/quote] I agree that there is only one Church. I just simply disagree with you as to which Church is the one Church. I believe that all the churches in communion with Rome form the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. You believe that the Eastern Orthodox Churches form the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I understand the difference.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #207 on: August 24, 2006, 06:15:26 PM »
Remeber, you attract more flies with honey than vinegar.

Ah! The secrets of proselytizing! Wonderful.  ::)
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #208 on: August 24, 2006, 06:17:18 PM »
i can live with that.

Oh no, RROs? We'll be moderated for certain now...  :D
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Offline Papist

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #209 on: August 24, 2006, 06:17:25 PM »
As my recently retired priest put it, the Roman Catholic Church is neither Catholic nor the Church...so it should properly be called the Roman Religious Organization.
OUCH! But I can appreciate that. We do not view the Orthodox Church as the True Church. So I can totally understand where you are coming from. Furthermore, we Catholics do not view protestant denominations as churches. At best, the more liturgical bodies are known to us as ecclesial bodies, but not Churches, per se.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #210 on: August 24, 2006, 06:18:03 PM »
[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg133025#msg133025 date=1156457726]
Ah! The secrets of proselytizing! Wonderful.  ::)
[/quote]

It would seem to be straight out of St Paul, who said be all things to all men.

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Offline Veniamin

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #211 on: August 24, 2006, 06:20:38 PM »
OUCH! But I can appreciate that. We do not view the Orthodox Church as the True Church. So I can totally understand where you are coming from. Furthermore, we Catholics do not view protestant denominations as churches. At best, the more liturgical bodies are known to us as ecclesial bodies, but not Churches, per se.

Well, before we get around to one of us converting the other (namely, us converting you), can we carve up Protestantism first?  I suggest y'all take the Charismatics and the fringe groups.  We'll take the Evangelicals and mainlines.  Deal?
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #212 on: August 24, 2006, 06:21:02 PM »
I must say I respect Papist much more than a Roman Catholic like Cardinal Wildebrands or other ecumenists.

I agree with you Papist: you can try to convert whomever you want and we will do the same.  I have no fear that Orthodoxy will win out since it's the True Church :)

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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #213 on: August 24, 2006, 06:23:03 PM »
As my recently retired priest put it, the Roman Catholic Church is neither Catholic nor the Church...so it should properly be called the Roman Religious Organization.

I realize we're joking around so no you will not be moderated.  In fact, I will add to the joke.  They are not Romans either, but rather Franco-Latins.  So really we should be talking about the Franco Latin Religious Organization ;)

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« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 06:23:52 PM by Anastasios »
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #214 on: August 24, 2006, 06:25:33 PM »
I realize we're joking around so no you will not be moderated.  In fact, I will add to the joke.  They are not Romans either, but rather Franco-Latins.  So really we should be talking about the Franco Latin Religious Organization ;)

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Offline Papist

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #215 on: August 24, 2006, 06:28:34 PM »
Well, before we get around to one of us converting the other (namely, us converting you), can we carve up Protestantism first?  I suggest y'all take the Charismatics and the fringe groups.  We'll take the Evangelicals and mainlines.  Deal?
Sounds like a deal. But it doesn't seem fair that we get stuck with the Cahrismatics. LOL>  ;)
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Offline CRCulver

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #216 on: August 24, 2006, 06:30:54 PM »
My friend, the Eastern Orthodox Church is one Church. The Catholic Church another. Since only one of the two can be the Church established by Jesus, that Church has the responsibility to evangelize the other out of love.

Since the Catholic Church has repeatedly stated "two lungs" notions, its praise of the Orthodox Church at the same time as evangelizing its members reveals hypocrisy.

Offline Papist

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #217 on: August 24, 2006, 06:31:05 PM »
I realize we're joking around so no you will not be moderated.  In fact, I will add to the joke.  They are not Romans either, but rather Franco-Latins.  So really we should be talking about the Franco Latin Religious Organization ;)

Anastasios
I dunno. With the American Church thinking its the center Universe, maybe it should be  the North American-Franco-Latin Religious Organization. "The test of a good religion is whether or not you can make a joke about it." (to paraphrase G.K. Chesteron)
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Offline Papist

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #218 on: August 24, 2006, 06:32:24 PM »
Since the Catholic Church has repeatedly stated "two lungs" notions, its praise of the Orthodox Church at the same time as evangelizing its members reveals hypocrisy.
I totally agree with you. For Church prelates to even be discussing a "two lung" theory when they know that such flies in the face of Catholic teaching is completely unacceptable.
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #219 on: August 24, 2006, 06:37:05 PM »
Sounds like a deal. But it doesn't seem fair that we get stuck with the Cahrismatics. LOL>  ;)

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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #220 on: August 24, 2006, 06:38:04 PM »
Papist,

Since you are obviously a Traditionalist Catholic, you may in fact appreciate SOME aspects of some of these videos:

http://www.synodinresistance.org/EkdoshsParag_en/binteosiraAen.asp.html

They are aimed against Orthodox ecumenists to try and sway Orthodox away from ecumenism, by showing a lot of the ecumenist stuff Catholics do that Orthodox join in on.  Since we both find ecumenism wrong, we can both cringe at some of the footage.  You may find a few titles interesting, of course, from a different point of view and reaching different conclusions, especially this one:

http://www.synodinresistance.org/EkdoshsParag_en/Video/Videos%20On%20Ecumenism/E4d1008Ortho1998VideoPart3Tainia-256Kbs.wmv

« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 06:38:49 PM by Anastasios »
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #221 on: August 24, 2006, 06:38:23 PM »
I totally agree with you. For Church prelates to even be discussing a "two lung" theory when they know that such flies in the face of Catholic teaching is completely unacceptable.

<My understanding is that this 'two lungs" thing is referring to the RCC and the Eastern Catholics. Anyway, most Orthodox Churches do not adhere to this opinion.
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #222 on: August 24, 2006, 06:39:33 PM »
No, it's clear from their printed statements that they mean the east in general, both Catholics and Orthodox.

Anastasios
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Offline Papist

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #223 on: August 24, 2006, 06:40:06 PM »
The wrong side always gets the short end of the stick.  You want to be on the winning side, find your nearest Orthodox recruiter priest and sign up.
You just officially became one of my favorite posters. LOL. Enjoy it, it doesn't last long. LOL.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?
« Reply #224 on: August 24, 2006, 06:41:32 PM »
No, it's clear from their printed statements that they mean the east in general, both Catholics and Orthodox.

Anastasios
If it only included Eastern Catholics, then I would have had no problem with the statement. However, that does not mean that I don't still love you guys. How about a hug? LOL
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