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Author Topic: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?  (Read 25098 times) Average Rating: 0
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Dismus
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« on: July 03, 2006, 06:50:05 PM »

I am really at a loss about this one. How is it that so many Roman Catholics seem to "forget" the horror story of what happend to Hagia Sophia. At least John Paul 11 made an attempt to heal the pain... But when I talk to Roman Catholics they seem to put a slant on it that skirts the whole issue and removes their role in the event.
I brought it up in my RCIA class and they were not happy I addressed it. The problem is how do you get amnesia on your history? I think more than an apology is in order here. This is another of many reasons for my distrust of the RCC.
They seem to "cover up" instead of face up. It is a real problem for me to get a handle on. This to me, seems to be something of an open wound and another obstacle to reunion (amoung many). This is just my opinion, how do the Orthodox feel about this?
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« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2006, 08:47:27 PM »

I am really at a loss about this one. How is it that so many Roman Catholics seem to "forget" the horror story of what happend to Hagia Sophia.

Well, my 'take' on this---as someone who was in RCIA three times before they gave up on me---is that the events of the Fourth Crusade and other actions make many Roman Catholics uncomfortable. Most know they did not do the right thing, and it is easier for many to ignore painful and uncomfortable things than to deal with it.

How do Orthodox deal with it? The majority of us are very distrustful of Rome due to the past history between our churches.

And, my viewpoint is: just as repentance often means making restitution, so also should an apology be followed with the return of stolen items, and I don't mean just a few relics and icons...
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« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2006, 09:21:22 PM »

Quote
This is just my opinion, how do the Orthodox feel about this?

This is my personal opinion as a member of the Orthodox Church, if someone who perpetrated the crimes is still alive... bring them before the appropriate tribunal.  Otherwise MOVE ON. 

The Orthodox have PLENTY on their hands if you really want to drudge up the past.  Ask some of our Coptic posters about the emperor Justinian, or if your interests are more modern the Orthodox stole plenty of property from Ukrainian and Transylvanian Uniates under the aegis of the Communist governments of the USSR and Romania.  Restitution is still a sketchy matter.  In other areas the Orthodox Church certainly deserves some blame for supporting hypernationalism... so really the past (and even into the present) is not so bright for Orthodoxy either.  Let's just get on with life and not live in the past. 
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« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2006, 09:31:16 PM »

Very well said. I only wonder how we can avoid future problems if we forget the past.
You are right, no one should be angry about the past- it should serve as a reminder though to help prevent conflict in future.
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« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2006, 10:00:06 PM »

By understanding the past, you can almost predict the future. However, this is good only to a certain extent, like Nektarios stated, we do need to move on and not live in the past. However, it can be debated about some things whether it is mere history, or something from history that continues to happen/affect us today. From the latter situations, we cannot move on without resolving them.

Quote
They seem to "cover up" instead of face up

I dont want to start something, but the RCC "covers up" a lot more than you think. Just look at world war 2. Even world war 1, even to a large extent the balkan wars.

I dont want to criticize Catholics, I have no right, it is for God to judge. Catholics themselves are not even comfortable in their own skin anymore. They dont have to face up and there doesnt have to be a a reunion, frankly its like living with an annoying brother; they are going to do some pretty evil things to you and never fess up to mom and dad, but theres not much you can do about it.
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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2006, 11:06:21 PM »

Quote
By understanding the past, you can almost predict the future. However, this is good only to a certain extent, like Nektarios stated, we do need to move on and not live in the past. However, it can be debated about some things whether it is mere history, or something from history that continues to happen/affect us today. From the latter situations, we cannot move on without resolving them.

There are things presently going on with the Vatican that we should be questioning, particularly this revisionist history going on with the Ustasa and Cardinal Stepinac.  The Vatican is actually promoting his veneration.  Dealing with issues like that seems much more productive than still talking about the sack of Constantinople. 
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« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2006, 11:58:13 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126571#msg126571 date=1151982381]
There are things presently going on with the Vatican that we should be questioning, particularly this revisionist history going on with the Ustasa and Cardinal Stepinac.ÂÂ  The Vatican is actually promoting his veneration.ÂÂ  Dealing with issues like that seems much more productive than still talking about the sack of Constantinople.ÂÂ  
[/quote]

The Vatican-Ustasha connection is something that will leave many people paranoid forever, especially people like which happen to be from Croatia. Pope Pieus XII and Pope John Paul II leave behind a legacy that people will be talking about in the future, especially the serbs. Pavelic and Stepinac show where the Vatican stand on it's policy with Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2006, 12:16:21 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126571#msg126571 date=1151982381]
There are things presently going on with the Vatican that we should be questioning, particularly this revisionist history going on with the Ustasa and Cardinal Stepinac.ÂÂ  The Vatican is actually promoting his veneration.ÂÂ  Dealing with issues like that seems much more productive than still talking about the sack of Constantinople.ÂÂ  
[/quote]
I agree that we should move on, but still, if it weren't for the Sack of Constantinople, there would be a lot more orthodox people today in the stolen part of Greece :Asia Minor including Armenians and other Christians. If there was no attack, that wouldn't have been a weakening of the City--Greece's armies would've been able to really help the Serbs in time of need. There would still be operating monasteries and churches which are now mosques, closed or piles of rubble...

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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2006, 12:24:57 AM »

OH PLEASE!

another "Remember the Alamo."!

Forgive us our trespasses AS WE FORGIVE those who trespass against us
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« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2006, 12:27:43 AM »

Dismus

Are you a citizen of the United States of America?

Do you think reparations are in order for every African American living in the U.S. today over slavery?

From caucasians today to those blacks alive today for what happened over 100 years ago?

If not, then think about what you are saying.
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« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2006, 12:46:01 AM »

SLAP (Cher to the face of Nicholas Cage in the movie, "Moonstruck")

"Get over it!"
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« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2006, 12:49:45 AM »

I agree that we should move on, but still, if it weren't for the Sack of Constantinople, there would be a lot more orthodox people today in the stolen part of Greece :Asia Minor including Armenians and other Christians. If there was no attack, that wouldn't have been a weakening of the City--Greece's armies would've been able to really help the Serbs


What times of need? Wink if the Turks didnt take out Constantinople, they would not have had an empire in Europe. No turks in Europe = No conversians to Islam = No troubles in the Balkans.

Likewise, there would not just be more Orthodox in Asia Minor, but all the current day muslims too !
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« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2006, 12:53:10 AM »

In my not so humble opinion, we could adjust this question and address the Church's treatment 700 years earlier of Egypt. The similarities are stark to me and our EO attitude is a good gauge for us in judging the RCs over 1204. Those who know me KNOW how sensitive I am about 1204, nevertheless, I think this is a valid analogy.
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« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2006, 01:02:27 AM »

Dismus

Are you a citizen of the United States of America?

Do you think reparations are in order for every African American living in the U.S. today over slavery?

From caucasians today to those blacks alive today for what happened over 100 years ago?

If not, then think about what you are saying.


yes I am a citizen of the United States of America.
No I don't think reparations are in order for every African American....
(not a good comparison- Holy relics..Holy Church....Vs. (another story for another day)
I do think about what I am saying.
I am saying that there is no trust as a result of this and other matters.
I am saying future relations are bound to be tainted by this lack of trust.
I'm saying that it is the person who ignores history that is doomed to repeat it.

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« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2006, 01:03:37 AM »

OH PLEASE!

another "Remember the Alamo."!

Forgive us our trespasses AS WE FORGIVE those who trespass against us

Yes, you are absolutely right.  BUT, why don't you try to honestly answer the original poster's question?  Otherwise, you should just butt out of the thread.  Sorry, but you weren't actually answering the original poster's question.
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« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2006, 01:07:42 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126571#msg126571 date=1151982381]
There are things presently going on with the Vatican that we should be questioning, particularly this revisionist history going on with the Ustasa and Cardinal Stepinac.ÂÂ  The Vatican is actually promoting his veneration.ÂÂ  Dealing with issues like that seems much more productive than still talking about the sack of Constantinople.ÂÂ  
[/quote]

I question the Vatican on the "today" issues. Opus Dei is very troubling and are the "new" Jesuits, stratigically placed in very powerful positions in the Vatican.
I question many other things as well.
I am not singling this one out.
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« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2006, 01:09:18 AM »

Yes, you are absolutely right.  BUT, why don't you try to honestly answer the original poster's question?  Otherwise, you should just butt out of the thread.  Sorry, but you weren't actually answering the original poster's question.

Gotta' agree with you, Elisha. He's proving the point by begging the question.
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« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2006, 01:11:22 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126571#msg126571 date=1151982381]
There are things presently going on with the Vatican that we should be questioning, particularly this revisionist history going on with the Ustasa and Cardinal Stepinac.ÂÂ  The Vatican is actually promoting his veneration.ÂÂ  Dealing with issues like that seems much more productive than still talking about the sack of Constantinople.ÂÂ  
[/quote]

Thank you for pointing this out. I never heard about this before in detail, and I am sorry that not having that information leads you to think that I would not care about it, as I do.
It is hard to know everything as you do.
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« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2006, 01:12:11 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg126588#msg126588 date=1151989758]
Gotta' agree with you, Elisha. He's proving the point by begging the question.
[/quote]

Not that I know anything to really contribute, as I was never Roman Catholic, but just saying regarding the OP...any of you ex-RCs?
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« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2006, 01:15:09 AM »

Not that I know anything to really contribute, as I was never Roman Catholic, but just saying regarding the OP...any of you ex-RCs?

Not I; but two or so years ago a thread on this let me chase off a good EC from OC.net. I regret that; even if he was wrong  Sad
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« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2006, 01:17:03 AM »

"why don't you just butt out"

because I am so sick of this same boo hoo every three months

There is a dying world out there in case you haven't noticed; people hopeless and helpless and without Christ. They are dying of spiritual thirst and we pour water on old (really old, ancient) wounds, rather than share the water of life.

I am sure that the early Jewish Church had a lot of reasons to be hurt and wounded and not follow the Great Commission. And many of them seemed to have argued for NOT obeying the Lord. St. Paul challenged them and that is why the ACTUALLY ARE  Greek Christians (and later Russians, Serbs ,etc.) and any Gentile Christians at all for that matter.

We seek a heavenly kingdom. We are pilgrims and wayfarers in this world. We do not seek Contantinople or relics or icons. We seek the New Jerusalem. Orthodoxy MUST move on and embrace the mission of the post-modern millieu or continue as an ehtnic, minority musem.
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« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2006, 01:18:41 AM »

My mother is a "catholic" although she goes to an Orthodox Church and even celebrates Christmas with us on Jan 7th. Her mother sort of tried to raise me as a catholic, but you see, that didnt really work out  Cheesy
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« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2006, 01:21:07 AM »

BTW
I have two very good friends who are members of Opus Dei who are VERY respectful of Orthodoxy and they value the early Fathers of the Church greatly, especially the Eastern Fathers.

Whoever posted about Opus Dei, do you know anyone a part of it or did you just read the Da Vinci Code?
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« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2006, 01:23:04 AM »


We seek a heavenly kingdom. We are pilgrims and wayfarers in this world. We do not seek Contantinople or relics or icons. We seek the New Jerusalem. Orthodoxy MUST move on and embrace the mission of the post-modern millieu or continue as an ehtnic, minority musem.

We also seek to share the heavenly kingdom, but when Holy Cities, Churches, Icons and other objects are being lost, we, as Orthodox Christians are losing out on the population. Constantinople could be a symbol for Orthodoxy, keeping it together nd focused on looking forward to the new kingdom. It could be a pace to unify all Orthodox Christians despite differences. These things can only make our belief stronger and more visible.
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« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2006, 01:29:37 AM »

The sacking of Constantinople did not cause it's fall to the Muslims. Alot of the Eastern Empire had already been lost to them. There was a lot of internal corruption and social religion in the empire. Although the last emperor died fighting for the city alot of them had become fat and acomodating.

We see the same thing happening in Western Europe and the US today.

We're not about empires - Roman, Byantium, Holy Russia,  Great Britain or the US

We are about the Kingdom of God!
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« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2006, 01:29:40 AM »

BTW
I have two very good friends who are members of Opus Dei who are VERY respectful of Orthodoxy and they value the early Fathers of the Church greatly, especially the Eastern Fathers.

Whoever posted about Opus Dei, do you know anyone a part of it or did you just read the Da Vinci Code?

Yes, in fact I do know less than 6 members of Opus Dei. Dan Brown's "litter" ary garbage is not my opinion of OD since it is too funny to be taken seriously. Mortification via discipline and cilice is not an invention of OD. OD has some very good schools, and excellent "reccolections" for those who love to spend more time enriching their worship.
However, they were granted some very unique priviledges and power that never existed before, and if you look at the members- it is troubling. Co-operators can range from Muslim to whatever the guy invented in his garage last week. That is another thread. Their founder was a man that .... Another thread.
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« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2006, 01:38:21 AM »

The sacking of Constantinople did not cause it's fall to the Muslims. Alot of the Eastern Empire had already been lost to them. There was a lot of internal corruption and social religion in the empire. Although the last emperor died fighting for the city alot of them had become fat and acomodating.

We see the same thing happening in Western Europe and the US today.

We're not about empires - Roman, Byantium, Holy Russia,ÂÂ  Great Britain or the US

We are about the Kingdom of God!





Dismus:

Yes, I agree. about the Kingdom of God.
I do not agree that "internal corruption" justifys in any way a Christian Church being put into this position by another Christian church. I am trying to be as politically correct when I say that as I can and welcome correction on that point.
I do not mean to upset you so by this post. I am not looking back at the "bad old days" waxing reminesect trying to boo-hoo anyone, I am looking at the reality that many factors in history have had their reprecussions, and some have led to the ongoing struggles that should not exist anymore, and hopefully will never happen again.
Although it seems from reading these posts, It appears I am right. History is repeating itself.


« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 01:39:04 AM by Dismus » Logged
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« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2006, 01:41:45 AM »

Quote
any of you ex-RCs?

I am!

As for the initial question of why don't Catholics know about or remember these events... probably more to do with the lack of Byzantine and Eastern European history in schools (really just a lack of anything but a quick skim of Western Europe) than anything else.  And it is a little awkward in Catholic Sunday school to point out "hey a lot of those cool relics in Rome are on indefinite loan from Byzantium."

As for the claim that had the Crusades not ransacked through the Byzantine Empire, the Ottomans never would have overtaken the Empire and even made its way into the Balkans... that is A LOT of speculation, that ultimately can never be proven eitherway. ÂÂ
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« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2006, 01:49:17 AM »

BTW
I have two very good friends who are members of Opus Dei who are VERY respectful of Orthodoxy and they value the early Fathers of the Church greatly, especially the Eastern Fathers.

Whoever posted about Opus Dei, do you know anyone a part of it or did you just read the Da Vinci Code?

If you would like to pm me for more details on the realities of OD I will try to get it to you as soon as I can. There are numerous wonderful people in OD. The structure of OD and it's power is what you do not see. They do not even have a constitution available for viewing.
John Paul II did a lot of wacky things, and OD was his pet project. So was kissing the Koran.
And Assisi.
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« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2006, 01:52:26 AM »

The sacking of Constantinople did not cause it's fall to the Muslims. Alot of the Eastern Empire had already been lost to them. There was a lot of internal corruption and social religion in the empire. Although the last emperor died fighting for the city alot of them had become fat and acomodating.
<snipped>

By 1453, yes, the city, never recovering from the 1204 plundering of the wealthiest parts of the eastern empire, was a shell, a remnant and certainly not FAT. Where do you get this junk?  If you feel better believing that the rape of Constantinople did not weaken the empire, fine. But that doesn't make it so. (Careful, please; I'm descended in part from refugees of 1204 who fled to Trapezounta (Trebizond) and also from a grandmother who related how the Turks 'bought' (stole) her still existing house in the City - much the same as today there or in Jerusalem today if one is non-Jewish.) Your read of history and mine differ. Boo-hoo...bah.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 01:53:33 AM by ΑριστÎÂà » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2006, 01:58:31 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126603#msg126603 date=1151991705]
I am!

As for the initial question of why don't Catholics know about or remember these events... probably more to do with the lack of Byzantine and Eastern European history in schools (really just a lack of anything but a quick skim of Western Europe) than anything else.  And it is a little awkward in Catholic Sunday school to point out "hey a lot of those cool relics in Rome are on indefinite loan from Byzantium."

As for the claim that had the Crusades not ransacked through the Byzantine Empire, the Ottomans never would have overtaken the Empire and even made its way into the Balkans... that is A LOT of speculation, that ultimately can never be proven eitherway. ÂÂ
[/quote]

Not to oversimplify and no disrespect intended ,, but are you saying that it is not easier to kick a man when he is down?
Please.
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« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2006, 01:59:05 AM »

Quote
John Paul II did a lot of wacky things, and OD was his pet project. So was kissing the Koran.
And Assisi.

If you are looking for run from these things by converting to Orthodoxy, you are barking up the wrong tree.  The power struggle and shifting going on in the Phanar are sketchy to to say the least.  We have our whacky, over the top ecumenists as well (keep in mind that the Orthodox had people at Asissi, too).  And we also have a former Patriarch of Alexandria who was always so fond of praising Mohammed.  If you convert to Orthodoxy to "escape" the problems in Western Christendom, you'll last a few years at the most.  Then you'll discover we have our own problems and wonder what on earth you were thinking.  If you convert, do you because you love our liturgical life, our spiritual life, our saints, our devotions and above all else because you believe it is in Orthodox Church that you can truly strive towards theosis.   ÃƒÆ’‚Â

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« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2006, 02:02:36 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg126607#msg126607 date=1151992346]
By 1453, yes, the city, never recovering from the 1204 plundering of the wealthiest parts of the eastern empire, was a shell, a remnant and certainly not FAT. Where do you get this junk?ÂÂ  If you feel better believing that the rape of Constantinople did not weaken the empire, fine. But that doesn't make it so. (Careful, please; I'm descended in part from refugees of 1204 who fled to Trapezounta (Trebizond) and also from a grandmother who related how the Turks 'bought' (stole) her still existing house in the City - much the same as today there or in Jerusalem today if one is non-Jewish.) Your read of history and mine differ. Boo-hoo...bah.
[/quote]

Help me out here, if I may ask you, Do you have any reccomendations of books on this subject that I may get more of an understanding of the history of this event? You seem to know much more than I will get in a book, but you may know how to point me in the right direction to get more knowledgeable on this topic.
Thanks for your post.
Sorry about your family.
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« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2006, 02:04:58 AM »

Quote
Not to oversimplify and no disrespect intended ,, but are you saying that it is not easier to kick a man when he is down?
Please.

The Ottoman Empire could have defeated the non-weakened Byzantine Empire.  Regardless, the Empire would have fallen at some point in history and likely have had at least some parts controlled by very hostile to Hellenism powers.  There is really no need to hold hostilities for an event 800 years in the past. ÂÂ
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« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2006, 02:12:58 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126612#msg126612 date=1151993098]
The Ottoman Empire could have defeated the non-weakened Byzantine Empire.  Regardless, the Empire would have fallen at some point in history and likely have had at least some parts controlled by very hostile to Hellenism powers.  There is really no need to hold hostilities for an event 800 years in the past. 
[/quote]

Not quite...The Ottoman Empire didn't exist until after the fall of the city. Yes, large portions had been lost, more through negotiated treaties (extortion) and other devices such as marriages of convenience than through open war. ALL empires fall, tired and worn out, but then I don't expect most here to understand this issue.
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« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2006, 02:14:12 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126610#msg126610 date=1151992745]
If you are looking for run from these things by converting to Orthodoxy, you are barking up the wrong tree.  The power struggle and shifting going on in the Phanar are sketchy to to say the least.  We have our whacky, over the top ecumenists as well (keep in mind that the Orthodox had people at Asissi, too).  And we also have a former Patriarch of Alexandria who was always so fond of praising Mohammed.  If you convert to Orthodoxy to "escape" the problems in Western Christendom, you'll last a few years at the most.  Then you'll discover we have our own problems and wonder what on earth you were thinking.  If you convert, do you because you love our liturgical life, our spiritual life, our saints, our devotions and above all else because you believe it is in Orthodox Church that you can truly strive towards theosis. ÂÂ




Dismus:

I am not sure where on this forum I stated it - but to be clear- I do not want to run away from RCC to something else.
I am more aware than ever after being on this forum that Orthodoxy has plenty of problems and am getting more detail on that than I was prepared for, but this is not a grave concern,
Just as my being a person who questions things - I did not stop going to Mass after hearing of horrors. I dare say it is a mark of the true Church to undergo problems.I am unsure how I could as you say "make a run" with this. It is not like a poker chip in Vegas. I guess you have me all wrong. I am merely asking the Why's as told by the "other side". My main concern as I have stated now on almost every post here is that something must be learned from this.
Now , as for Assisi, yes I am aware that Orthodox were present.
I have a hard time these days determining who is "really in " or Out of Orthodoxy especially after reading some posts on this forum that seem to discuss this matter a bit.
So, yes if true Orthodox were there- forgive me but - it really was something that leaves one to wonder what the heck is the fine line between ecumenism and false ecumenism.
 ÃƒÆ’‚Â


[/quote]
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« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2006, 02:20:09 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg126613#msg126613 date=1151993578]
Not quite...The Ottoman Empire didn't exist until after the fall of the city. Yes, large portions had been lost, more through negotiated treaties (extortion) and other devices such as marriages of convenience than through open war. ALL empires fall, tired and worn out, but then I don't expect most here to understand this issue.
[/quote]

Well that was very charitable of you if I may say so. I will be happy to be one of the "most here to understand this issue"
How arrogant. Theosis includes arrogance?
Count me out.
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« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2006, 02:47:01 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126553#msg126553 date=1151976082]
...or if your interests are more modern the Orthodox stole plenty of property from Ukrainian and Transylvanian Uniates under the aegis of the Communist governments of the USSR and Romania.
[/quote]

There was no "stealing". The Church has the responsibility of wiping out heresies in its territories. Just as we rejoice that heretics were imprisoned or exiled after the Ecumenical Coucils and their lies were defeated, we should rejoice that the Uniates, at least until recent Western meddling, were not able to flourish.
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« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2006, 03:04:17 AM »

"why don't you just butt out"

because I am so sick of this same boo hoo every three months
Well YOU are not a RC inquirer, so just leave this thread if you don't like it.  It wasn't a regular poster here who is "rehasing" the arguement.

BTW
I have two very good friends who are members of Opus Dei who are VERY respectful of Orthodoxy and they value the early Fathers of the Church greatly, especially the Eastern Fathers.
Good for them!  But this doesn't explain how the average RC is probably ignorant like the original poster is requesting knowledge of.
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« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2006, 09:01:06 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126612#msg126612 date=1151993098]
The Ottoman Empire could have defeated the non-weakened Byzantine Empire.  Regardless, the Empire would have fallen at some point in history and likely have had at least some parts controlled by very hostile to Hellenism powers.  There is really no need to hold hostilities for an event 800 years in the past. ÂÂ
[/quote]

I guess we cant know for sure, but I'm going to say I'm not to sure that the Ottomans could have defeated the Byzantine Empire at its full strength. Had have the Empire fallen a few centuries later, things may have turne dout different.
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« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2006, 08:30:59 PM »

Help me out here, if I may ask you, Do you have any reccomendations of books on this subject that I may get more of an understanding of the history of this event? You seem to know much more than I will get in a book, but you may know how to point me in the right direction to get more knowledgeable on this topic.
Thanks for your post.
Sorry about your family.

here are some links

sack of constantinople 1204 links: :'(
http://www.agiasofia.com/emperors/fall1204.html
http://unicorne.org/orthodoxy/janfeb/constantinople.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/beyond/factsheets/makhist/makhist9_prog12a.shtml

the fall of constantinople 1453 :'(
http://www.greece.org/Romiosini/fall.html
http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/nicol_condeath.html

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« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2006, 09:12:27 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126612#msg126612 date=1151993098]
The Ottoman Empire could have defeated the non-weakened Byzantine Empire.  Regardless, the Empire would have fallen at some point in history and likely have had at least some parts controlled by very hostile to Hellenism powers.  There is really no need to hold hostilities for an event 800 years in the past. ÂÂ
[/quote]


I am not sure about that Nektarios. The Byzantine empire in its prime fought and finally beat greater powers than the Ottoman empire. The persian empire. And not only that, but the Byzantine empire at the same time was holding off the slavs on its north-west borders

However the fall of the persian empire later resulted in the rise of the Arabs and Islam, but that is a different story..

Emperors such as Justinian, Herakleios, Vasileios II and others made the empire during their time the strongest in Europe, maybe in the world.

The rise of the Ottomans was a result of many factors.ÂÂ  The ottomans made their appearance towards the begining of the empire's decline. Princes that wanted the throne used Ottomans to fight with them and promised lands and gold. Later due to lack of manpower (result of stupid social and military decisions by some ignorant emperors), as the byzantine empire was hit from everywhere (latins, slavs, arabs and etc), they started buying "services" from every corner of europe and ofcource the ottomans who never said no in exchange for more knowledge, money and lands. As the empire was running out of money, they gave lands, and also taught the then nomad turks to become smarter and militarily trained.

As the empire was close to the end, the latins occupied aras of greece, the Turks where already "breading" genisaries (they took children under 4 years old from christian families raising them as Turks and muslems) in the ex-Byzantine lands of Minor Asia (so the Greeks losing Minor Asia did not have manpower), the Genoans and venetians controled the commercial ports and the greeks where fighting each other over to unify with the Pope (not because they believed in what the Pope standed for, but to to save their skin and city) or not!!! But they knew bad news was coming. they just had faith that walls and Theotokos will save them again. Anyway The Turks sought the opportunity and patiently worked towards the goal of concuring european lands and finally Constantinople.

If we had better emperors after Vasileios II, then i believe the 1204 sack would have never happend, and maybe turks would have still remained in turkmenistan.. Maybe yes, maybe not


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« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2006, 09:13:37 PM »


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« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2006, 12:04:55 AM »

Great information. I will have to go over it in more detail when I can pay closer attention to it.

There is so much to this event from it's causes and it's aftermath.

I see that it would not be easy to cover quickly in an RCIA class, and therefore is even more diffucult to address.

Thanks for the links and the information.
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« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2006, 12:26:14 AM »

The sacking of Constantinople did not cause it's fall to the Muslims.
From 1204 to 1254 western Anatola ( Asia Minor) was left undefended from the Islamic incursion.The reason for this is: The Latins(who unlawfully seized the throne) either (A)did not consider them ( Muslims) a threat or(B) they were to concerned with the eventual return of the true Emperor and ignored eastern defences in favor of defending the western front from ( I hate this word) the "Byzantines" or (C) both of the above. By the time Emperor Palaeologus regained the throne, most of Western Anatola was lost forever ( or only temporarily  Wink ).
 Hence, it can be reasonably argued that the sack of Constantinople DID lead to its` fall to the Muslims.

Also, the Pope`s refusal to send troops to defend the city due to wide scale refusal ( in the east) to accept the Council of Florence ( i.e. Papal supremacy) is yet another issue that R.C.`s are flat out ignorant of ( or in denial).
  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  It never ceases to amaze me how under educated most R.C.`s about their own history (let alone ours) ....whereas ,in Orthodoxy knowledge of the past is so entertwined with our faith.
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« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2006, 01:20:22 AM »

I can certainly identify with Aristokles. My grandparents and great grand parents told me of how hey were treated as second class citizens, having to pay very heavy taxes, not being able to "ride the donkey/horse" and later drive the car, in the street publically, how they had to walk in the mud on the street while the muslims walked on the pavement. I bet all Christians back then prayed that they might not have a very beautiful daughter so that she won't be taken away by them too.

As a side note, Panagia Soumela (Aristokles' avatar) is a monastery high in the mountains of Pontos, which now is uninhabited.

For the non-greek whiners (except the Serbs who actually understand this stuff cuz they're livin' it right now), if you're people (fill in the blanks) was forced out of their homes, starved, murdered, forced to leave your own country, I wonder if some of you would've wrote those posts about "our kingdom is in heaven, not on earth"- in the end maybe, but you might as well smash all our hopes and dreams now because we all know our future is in heaven. I don't care if Turkey wants to exist, let it exist in the Bahamas, just not on other people's land (ie. Greeks, Armenians, Kurds).
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« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2006, 02:39:48 AM »

Quote
For the non-greek whiners (except the Serbs who actually understand this stuff cuz they're livin' it right now), if you're people (fill in the blanks) was forced out of their homes, starved, murdered, forced to leave your own country, I wonder if some of you would've wrote those posts about "our kingdom is in heaven, not on earth"- in the end maybe, but you might as well smash all our hopes and dreams now because we all know our future is in heaven. I don't care if Turkey wants to exist, let it exist in the Bahamas, just not on other people's land (ie. Greeks, Armenians, Kurds).

For us non-Greeks did you ever stop to consider that just maybe other groups besides Serbs and Greeks have had misfortune in their history?  My Grandparents lost their home, were forced to flee their country, had family and friends executed all by good old Holy Russia.  Different families/groups have chosen to manifest that in different ways.  Were I to act like some on this forum, I would be a diehard Roman Catholic and Polish nationalist talking about reclaiming the former glory of Poland.  But since we are talking about suffering - how do you feel about the Macedonians who suffered just as much under the Turks as anyone else in the Balkans?  How do you feel about the fact that the Greek government denies they even exist in Northern Greece and also wants to deny the name of their country?  I don't recall ever hearing of Greece wanting to donate land back to the Slavic inhabitants (or their descendents) that was taken during the Balkan wars. 

So where should the modern Turks live under your relocation plan?  Even supposing lands where non-Turkic ethnic groups are the dominant population are allowed self determination, that would still leave much of Asia Minor as Turkey.  Where do you propose to put them?  And since you expect Turkey to give back the land and property to the Greeks expelled in the population exchange, I assume you think Greece should also restore land and property to Turks and other Muslims expelled from Greece?   
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« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2006, 10:10:39 AM »

From 1204 to 1254 western Anatola ( Asia Minor) was left undefended from the Islamic incursion.The reason for this is: The Latins(who unlawfully seized the throne) either (A)did not consider them ( Muslims) a threat or(B) they were to concerned with the eventual return of the true Emperor and ignored eastern defences in favor of defending the western front from ( I hate this word) the "Byzantines" or (C) both of the above. By the time Emperor Palaeologus regained the throne, most of Western Anatola was lost forever ( or only temporarilyÂÂ  Wink ).
 Hence, it can be reasonably argued that the sack of Constantinople DID lead to its` fall to the Muslims.





Also, the Pope`s refusal to send troops to defend the city due to wide scale refusal ( in the east) to accept the Council of Florence ( i.e. Papal supremacy) is yet another issue that R.C.`s are flat out ignorant of ( or in denial).
  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  It never ceases to amaze me how under educated most R.C.`s about their own history (let alone ours) ....whereas ,in Orthodoxy knowledge of the past is so entertwined with our faith.


If I may offer my own reasons as an RC why I am "undereducated about their own history (let alone ....

It is just my opinion but most Europeans have a broader knowledge of History in Europe/the World than Americans do.
I hate to say but it might be a combination of "who cares" and bad education, and in some cases pure laziness.
I might have qualifyed for all three. Not thinking of History and Faith until I was in my 20's. Even then - a very small, curiosity,, not a driving passion.
My mother is Finnish, so I had a remote interest in learning about the big bad Russians for a while., but guess what- most people don't need to know about history to be a good RCC/Orthodox.
I just would like to have a deeper understanding.
So, yes I am a lazy American.
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« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2006, 10:18:09 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126740#msg126740 date=1152081588]
  But since we are talking about suffering - how do you feel about the Macedonians who suffered just as much under the Turks as anyone else in the Balkans?  How do you feel about the fact that the Greek government denies they even exist in Northern Greece and also wants to deny the name of their country?  I don't recall ever hearing of Greece wanting to donate land back to the Slavic inhabitants (or their descendents) that was taken during the Balkan wars.   ÃƒÆ’‚  
[/quote]

I don't want to speak for others here, but I would guess that no one here on this fourm relishes anyone's suffering.
That would not be Christian.
But from the beginning of time we have had it and will until the end.
Looking at this event does not minimize any other, and if we take the attitude that people are nasty everywhere (true) but- it leads to apathy and hopelessness instead of making sense of the past to prevent or at the very least not agitate another tragedy.
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« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2006, 11:48:20 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126740#msg126740 date=1152081588]
For us non-Greeks did you ever stop to consider that just maybe other groups besides Serbs and Greeks have had misfortune in their history?ÂÂ  My Grandparents lost their home, were forced to flee their country, had family and friends executed all by good old Holy Russia.ÂÂ  Different families/groups have chosen to manifest that in different ways.ÂÂ  Were I to act like some on this forum, I would be a diehard Roman Catholic and Polish nationalist talking about reclaiming the former glory of Poland.ÂÂ  But since we are talking about suffering - how do you feel about the Macedonians who suffered just as much under the Turks as anyone else in the Balkans?ÂÂ  How do you feel about the fact that the Greek government denies they even exist in Northern Greece and also wants to deny the name of their country?ÂÂ  I don't recall ever hearing of Greece wanting to donate land back to the Slavic inhabitants (or their descendents) that was taken during the Balkan wars.ÂÂ  
[/quote]
Yes, you're right, but us "non-Greeks"/fill-in-the-blank-non-ethnic-Orthodox don't have the religious ties to our ancestors as the ethnics.  Sure, we want to pray for other (non-EO) Christians, but we realize that they left the faith many centuries ago and don't have that religious bond that "ethnics" have back with their homeland.  You may not think so, but I think it makes a big difference.  Also, these ethnic Orthodox mother country issues are CURRENT EVENTS that CAN be changed, as opposed to injustices that happened many decades or centuries ago.
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« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2006, 11:58:14 AM »

Nektarios, when I mentioned Greeks and Serbs, I didn't mean ONLY them, I'm including people of all nationalities who have also suffered. As for the glory of former Poland, that doesn't count...you can still go to Poland and in all likelyhood you will hear Polish being spoken on the streets, you will see polish/Catholic churches, you will most likely eat polish food (unless you're in the capital and there's a McDonald:))...if I go to Imvros, Tenedos- you know those 2 islands where there was a greek majoriy in the early 20th century and the turks let out all these turkish gahoons out of jail to run the greeks off the island...if I go anywhere in Asia Minor, I'll probably hear Turkish, see mosques, or "mosque..ahem I mean churches", and the funny thing is, I'll see "Roman" monuments which we all know today as Byzantine which these people didn't even help to build up. They helped to destroy it and yet when they see Agia Sophia, they're proud of it. huh?! For heaven's sake, the Armenian patriarch got arrested for painting a building's exterior.

And I don't expect Turkey to give back anything. I'm hoping that one day they can give back the Agia Sophia but I'm still quite doubtful. I don't believe that we should get rid of the Turks by genociding them. That would be too Turkish of us. The best thing would be to try and bring Greek and Armenian families back into Asia Minor, and provide them jobs etc...a downfall to that would be if the Turkish government ever wanted to get rid of them again, we all know the CNN will somehow twist the story like they're doin' in Kosovo.

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« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2006, 12:05:22 PM »

As for Macedonia, Makedonia was not originally a slavic area. It was originally a greek area, but later, Slavs moved in. Just because they moved on greek land, doesn't mean they can come and take it away. So you're telling that if a group of Spanishg-speaking Mexicans became the majoriy of Florida one day, it would be okay for them to claim Florida as their land?? I don't think so. If people want to move on other people's land, they can move all they wantt, but that doesn't give them the right to take it. That's why I support Serbia--just because some other people moved on their land, doesn't mean they can just whisk it away.

The southern half of the region Makedonia is in greece, the northern region of makedonia used to belong to greece, serbia, and I believe other countries...
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« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2006, 12:05:36 PM »

My opinion on this for what its worth is that Just because you belong to a faith doesn't mean that you know alot about the faith or the events attached to the faith. A good example are the "Terrorists" who go around quoting the Koran about killing people in the name of Allah and so forth. These are people who don't know what they're reading and are taking their readings at face value. They don't bother to interpret what they read, they just mindlessly chant it. So the same, I think alot of RCCs and even OCs go through their religious life without learning about any of the deeper issues that tie into their faith. As a proof, you could probably walk into any given orthodox church and interview every person there and you'll find a good number who don't know anything about the schism, or about Cyril and Methodius, or about Patriarch St. Tihkon, etc. Just because you're part of a faith doesn't mean that you embrace the faith in full knowledge of its events. I can tell you personally that while I've learned a great deal about the Orthodox Church, I can't even begin to try and imagine how many other historical events occured in her history that I am totally unaware about. it seems to be just a sad fact of educational reality.

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« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2006, 12:49:27 PM »

As for Macedonia, Makedonia was not originally a slavic area. It was originally a greek area, but later, Slavs moved in. Just because they moved on greek land, doesn't mean they can come and take it away. The southern half of the region Makedonia is in greece, the northern region of makedonia used to belong to greece, serbia, and I believe other countries...

They also like to play their cards. The most yugo-nostalgic people, when around Serbs claim to be slavs and even "south serbs" and then between themselves claim to be descendants of ancient Macedonians and try to convince eachother that Alexander the Great is their national hero Tongue . No offense meant to any Macedonians, I know the majority of you are just trying to get by, but thats just my personal experiences  Wink

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« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2006, 02:23:26 PM »

Yes, you're right, but us "non-Greeks"/fill-in-the-blank-non-ethnic-Orthodox don't have the religious ties to our ancestors as the ethnics.ÂÂ  Sure, we want to pray for other (non-EO) Christians, but we realize that they left the faith many centuries ago and don't have that religious bond that "ethnics" have back with their homeland.ÂÂ  You may not think so, but I think it makes a big difference.ÂÂ  Also, these ethnic Orthodox mother country issues are CURRENT EVENTS that CAN be changed, as opposed to injustices that happened many decades or centuries ago.


Bingo!
This was what I was kinda hoping to hear someone say---
Do the current events today have a pattern to the past? Ie: are there some solutions to solving today's problems that we have knowledge might work based what we have already learned?
I'm not sure that in this case there are- but that is why I ask.
Current events can be changed or at least the damage can hopefully be minimized....
Bloodshed anywhere is sad, and I think as Christians we have a responsibility to do the best we can to prevent loss of life.
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« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2006, 08:17:17 PM »

Quote
Yes, you're right, but us "non-Greeks"/fill-in-the-blank-non-ethnic-Orthodox don't have the religious ties to our ancestors as the ethnics.  Sure, we want to pray for other (non-EO) Christians, but we realize that they left the faith many centuries ago and don't have that religious bond that "ethnics" have back with their homeland.

Really?  In what century did my ancestors leave the faith?  To say Poles have no religious conection with their ancestry is ridiculous.  Beyond that, what of groups like Macedonians, Bulgarians or Georgians that don't have a favorable historical view of Greeks or Russians?  Are they not as Orthodox?  Then there are Copts (who are, like it or not, communed as Orthodox in many jurisdictions) - Coptic mobs caused some deal of trouble for Greeks and then there is the Justinian incident. 

Quote
As for the glory of former Poland, that doesn't count...you can still go to Poland and in all likelyhood you will hear Polish being spoken on the streets, you will see polish/Catholic churches, you will most likely eat polish food (unless you're in the capital and there's a McDonald:))

Go to Athens or Thessaloniki and I assure you that you can find modern Greek spoken and can probably find some doners...er gyros to eat.  That is the apples to apples comparison.  Modern Polish culture doesn't extend to all the former areas of Greater Poland.  Demographic and political changes happen. 

Quote
The best thing would be to try and bring Greek and Armenian families back into Asia Minor, and provide them jobs etc

So are Turks and other Muslims that were expelled from Greece during the population exchanged entitled the same in Greece?

Quote
As for Macedonia, Makedonia was not originally a slavic area. It was originally a greek area, but later, Slavs moved in. Just because they moved on greek land, doesn't mean they can come and take it away.

After a thousand years and a few major political changes most of Macedonia (the entire region) had a dominant Slavic population.  Not entirely unlike the Greeks expanding their own territory.  Greeks making terrirorial claims on what is now the Republic of Macedonia (or having their panties in a bunch over the name) is just as stupid as Macedonians having ambitions on Thessaloniki since it was once Slavic.

Quote
So you're telling that if a group of Spanishg-speaking Mexicans became the majoriy of Florida one day, it would be okay for them to claim Florida as their land?? I don't think so. If people want to move on other people's land, they can move all they wantt, but that doesn't give them the right to take it.

It is an apples to oranges comparison.  Here is an apple to apple comparison:  several hundred years from now if the United States government collapses and population in certain southern areas reflect a completely different language and culture than other states, then when no borders and such are being set it might very well make sense for them to be their own nation or part of a Latin American nation.  Ultimately though my hope is in mutli-ethnic states that can have multiple minorities - ethnic and religious - peacefully co-existing. 

Quote
They also like to play their cards. The most yugo-nostalgic people, when around Serbs claim to be slavs and even "south serbs" and then between themselves claim to be descendants of ancient Macedonians and try to convince eachother that Alexander the Great is their national hero  . No offense meant to any Macedonians, I know the majority of you are just trying to get by, but thats just my personal experiences

Of course.  I find Macedonian nationalism just as silly as any other.


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« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2006, 09:34:33 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126834#msg126834 date=1152145037]
Really?  In what century did my ancestors leave the faith?  To say Poles have no religious conection with their ancestry is ridiculous.
[/quote]
The centuries during the Reformation and Great Schism; don't try and play stupid please.  Just because they may have unknowingly done so doesn't really matter - they are not Orthodox.  If you felt so connected, maybe you wouldn't have converted to Orthodoxy.  Same with all of us converts.

I really don't see why are you are playing these stupid games.  Appealing for help for the Orthodox people of greater Serbia is a worthy cause.  Unlike the Holocaust with Jews, it hasn't been politically abused - it hasn't even really been noticed or acted upon to be abused!  When you see Serbs getting special treatment and given more than what should be due for the severely oppressed situation, then I MIGHT start to think you have a point.

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« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2006, 09:41:39 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126834#msg126834 date=1152145037]
So are Turks and other Muslims that were expelled from Greece during the population exchanged entitled the same in Greece?
[/quote]

No but we have in north eatern greece more than 100.000 Muslems. The are free, they have EU citizenship and they are growing in numbers. In turkey, constantinople had 500.000 in the 1900s,  250.000 greeks in 1950s and now 2500..... You know the stories of the 1950's and 1960's massive attacks on greek shops, rapes, kills by organised groups brought from eastern turkey to demonstrate against the Cypriot greeks?

Well, we didnt do this to the turks in greece. Thats why they are growing and thats absolutely fine.

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126834#msg126834 date=1152145037]
After a thousand years and a few major political changes most of Macedonia (the entire region) had a dominant Slavic population. 
[/quote]
oh Really? The majority?  In the early 1900s in the greek region of MAKEDONIA the majority where Moslems 40%, Greeks where about 30%, bulgarians where 20% and the remaining 10% where roumanian, serb, gypsies and Jews. 
[/quote]

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126834#msg126834 date=1152145037]
Not entirely unlike the Greeks expanding their own territory.  Greeks making terrirorial claims on what is now the Republic of Macedonia (or having their panties in a bunch over the name) is just as stupid as Macedonians having ambitions on Thessaloniki since it was once Slavic.
[/quote]

Greeks making territorial claims on FYROM?HuhHuhHuh?? Greece?   Huh Thats rediculous. We are a EU country,we dont have territorial claims. Anyway despite the name problems, our relations are good. We are the no1 investor in that country.

As for the name of course we dont agree.. And their language is what "Macedonian"? even though its a slavic language? A serb or a Bulgarian perhaps can understand it.. not a greek..whats written on the tombs and and the walls, rocks in Pella and Vergina i can read it.. can a FYROManian do so? i dont think so... Anyway this whole "Macedonian" thing FYROM has was an invention of Tito and Stalin, to invent a "macedonian nation" that would had been of course "communist" and have access to the Aegean sea..
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« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2006, 12:26:46 AM »

Quote
The centuries during the Reformation and Great Schism; don't try and play stupid please.  Just because they may have unknowingly done so doesn't really matter - they are not Orthodox.

If you are going to make such claims as my ancestors left Orthodoxy then you should be able to back them up.  My ancestors never were Orthodox. 

Quote
If you felt so connected, maybe you wouldn't have converted to Orthodoxy.  Same with all of us converts.

I didn't know one had to change their ancestry or not be conected with their past in order to be Orthodox.

Quote
I really don't see why are you are playing these stupid games.  Appealing for help for the Orthodox people of greater Serbia is a worthy cause.

A worthy cause in your opinion.  From my vantage point it is nothing but atheistic nationalism that will only serve to hurt the Orthodox Church in the long run.  If you want a cause to support, how about Albanian Orthodox missionary work? 

Keep in mind that Western Europe also had its phase of religious nationalism.  The end result can now be seen in the deeply secularized parts of Western Europe.

Quote
Well, we didnt do this to the turks in greece. Thats why they are growing and thats absolutely fine.

Not returning mob violence to Turkish population in Greece is wonderful.  The human rights situation in modern Greece is not even comparable to Turkey.  Why I brought up what I did was to point out that if people want to bring up past wrongs against Greeks, they must also be prepared to admit that Greeks aren't entirely innocent.  This isn't just a Greek thing, challanging the "we're the innocent victims of various evil forces in the world" isn't something most people want to do (for instance google Jedwabne and see a similar thing with Polish nationalists).  My  objection to this idealogy is that it is often passed off as part of Orthodoxy in certain circles. 

Quote
Greeks making territorial claims on FYROM?

I am sorry, what I said didn't come out correctly.  I mean the Greek government's denial of the existence of a Macedonian ethnicity in Nothern Greece.  These are our brothers in the Faith, why such treatment of them and their desire to have their own language and name for their Republic? 

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« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2006, 02:35:10 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126866#msg126866 date=1152160006]
If you are going to make such claims as my ancestors left Orthodoxy then you should be able to back them up.  My ancestors never were Orthodox. 
[/quote]
I don't need to - history bears it out.  If you go back far enough, virtuall all Europeans were Orthodox.

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126866#msg126866 date=1152160006]
I didn't know one had to change their ancestry or not be conected with their past in order to be Orthodox.
[/quote]
I didn't say that - I was referring to converts such as ourselves.

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126866#msg126866 date=1152160006]
A worthy cause in your opinion.  From my vantage point it is nothing but atheistic nationalism that will only serve to hurt the Orthodox Church in the long run.  If you want a cause to support, how about Albanian Orthodox missionary work? 
[/quote]
Trying to bring to light that hundreds of churches and monasteries are being destroyed is atheistic nationalism?  Hardly.  While that may be a small element, I don't think you can ever prove that it is a large element in the plight of Serbia.  Sure, Albanian Orthodox missionary work is great...but so is trying come to the aid of persecuted Serbs.
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« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2006, 03:05:31 AM »

I think I am just sad that the RCC did not come to help in the time of crisis.
I think it is just that simple.
Wow.
It got a bit more complicated than thought it would be.
The main thing I get out of this is the RCC could have helped, and looked the other way.
That is the tragedy that stuns me.
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« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2006, 04:01:52 AM »

Dismus: For an overview read "The Fall of Constantinople" by Steven Runciman.

BrotherAidan: What say you to your specious claims?

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« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2006, 07:47:52 AM »

I think I am just sad that the RCC did not come to help in the time of crisis.
I think it is just that simple.
Wow.
It got a bit more complicated than thought it would be.
The main thing I get out of this is the RCC could have helped, and looked the other way.
That is the tragedy that stuns me.

Dismus, thanks for opening such a topic, too bad some of us went off topic.

Agia Sofia, is one of the greatest symols of Christianity, if not the greatest (this is debateable)

Agia Sofia is probably the most expensive structure ever built.

The really amazing (and strange) thing is that cathedrals the the Milan Cathedral, the Vatican, Cologne, St Pauls in London where built hundreds of years later and for took many years build. The Milan cathedral took 500 years to build, The Vatican took 109 years to build and St Pauls 35.

Agia Sofya was built in 6 years (532—37 AD)!!!!!!!!

For the construction of Agia Sofia, the finest meterials where used. They say that an angel realeaved the design plans for Agia sofia to emperor Justinian in his dreams during his sleep. There are other myths that when the workers stopped constuction late in the day, the next morning where shocked to see parts already built! They say that angels where assisting in building this stucture.

Agia sofia was the most complicated structure at its time, and the way the dome was built was unique.

Returning to your earlier posts, one of the reasons some Roman catholics dont talk about Agia Sofia, is because of ignorance. The 2 churches went thir separate ways, and in the west the orthodox have been forgotten for may years.

This is also due to the fact that The Byzantine empire, the Serbs and the other Balcan Orthodox came under Ottoman rule for 400 years. In some parts of the Ottoman empire a lot of people for forceably converted to islam. So Orthodoxy had another mission during those years. Not spreading the faith, or argueing with the RCC. But survival of the faith.

Our Russian brothers were quite far away from the west and had for some years their own stuggles. In addition, although many people say that the russian church benefitted from the soviet govenment, actually thats not true. A lot of priests where killed, and churches destroyed. But despit the ottoman rule, communism, world wars Othodoxy still stands and is stronger than ever!!

The Roman Catholics during those years, became greater in numbers, only becuase of the America and other colonies. if i am not mistaken besides parts of western Europe, mostÂÂ  Catholics are found in latin america and the US.

You mentioned that the RCC did not come to help in th time of the crisis.  if you read history of that time, the Popes, tryied to take advantage of the dying empire and theÂÂ  danger coming from the turks, and stated that they could only send help if "the churches where united". But with one more detail though. A unity under their conditions...

We had to accept the filioque, the Pope's authority and some other things. Then help could come. When the Emperor was desparate and had not other option, although strong resistance from the people and the church, the Byzantine Emperor signed the deal. Then the Pope send.... 50 men for help  Huh. He aslo started building (He decided this...during the last ottoman attacks) some ships to send supposely more help, but that was too late. ... The Byzantines with the few Latins who fought along side, had the impression that help was sent and waited for that help up until the last moment. A few days before the fall of the City, They sent a ship that escaped from the Ottoman blockage to seek any Western navy nearby, as they truly believed that help was coming.. :'(

When the ship saw no navy in the aegean, the captain instead of fleeing, took the decision to sail back and inform the Emperor Konstantine! When they came back, the informed the Emperor, and he started crying.. There was no hope. The "Vasileuousa", the queen of all Cities, The center of Christianism and Agia SofiaÂÂ  was ready to fall forever.

Thats when they did the last service in AGIA SOFIA, where everyone asked forgiveness from each other. And ran to the walls to meet there proud ancestors.. :'(




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« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2006, 07:59:18 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126866#msg126866 date=1152160006]

I am sorry, what I said didn't come out correctly.  I mean the Greek government's denial of the existence of a Macedonian ethnicity in Nothern Greece.  These are our brothers in the Faith, why such treatment of them and their desire to have their own language and name for their Republic? 

[/quote]

There simply is no Macedonian ethnicity in Northern Greece. There are however, people of Bulgarian descent who now believe the propaganda of the recently created FYROM and think they are ethnic Macedonians. I remember some years ago seeing census data for Southern Yugoslavia in the 1920's or 30's. There were no 'Macedonians' but there was a sizeable Bulgarian population. Census data for FYROM after the 2nd world war abruptly has NO Bulgarians (where did they all go?) and a sizeable 'Macedonian" population. It seems pretty obvious what happened.

John
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« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2006, 08:16:40 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126866#msg126866 date=1152160006]
I am sorry, what I said didn't come out correctly.ÂÂ  I mean the Greek government's denial of the existence of a Macedonian ethnicity in Nothern Greece.ÂÂ  These are our brothers in the Faith, why such treatment of them and their desire to have their own language and name for their Republic?ÂÂ  
[/quote]

What "Macedonian" ethicity?.. There is no such thing as Macedonian ethnicity. There is a temporary name for them, FYROM

But there are talks between the nations are there, and we shall know soon.

Why dont u ask a Greek Macedonian how he feels about this? Since when a non-greek country can reserve a greek NAME SUCH AS "MAKEDONIA"? do they know what the word Macedonia means? of course not..because its a greek name, as what the ancient Macedonians WERE. You can see that in the bible to. Why dont you aks them to translate what THESSALONIKI means. Or Alexander (Alexandros). They wont, because Macedonians spoke Greek,not slavic.

They are our brothers in faith, and they have every rigtht for a name and a language. But call it somehtingÂÂ  that doesnt "rewrite" history..

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« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2006, 11:23:52 AM »

See the Church of Holy Wisdom it its glory:

http://www.byzantium1200.com/hagia.html


Makes me want to cry.
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« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2006, 12:00:07 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg126943#msg126943 date=1152199432]
See the Church of Holy Wisdom it its glory:

http://www.byzantium1200.com/hagia.html


Makes me want to cry.
[/quote]


Me too.How can RCC call Orthodox "sister church" and "other lung" when you would never do this to your sister or your other lung.
It seems very phony that they try to make it sound like there has always been a strong loving connection there.
On top of forcing a document to be signed under duress and that is not in good faith, litterally!
Yes, it is the past, yes it is sad, but the treachery of the RCC in their actions during this crisis of terrible proportion is ....
Not CHRISTIAN.
Isn't it in the book of John somewhere ....if you treat the brother you can see badly how do you treat the one you did not see?
I can't recall the verse exactly now... someone else may know it...
So, if I understand this right- they wanted to "take control" of Hagia Sophia for the price of a forced contract and 50 men to "help"?
That is outrageous. Ok, I don't want to know anymore I'll bug off the thread I think, it is not something I think I will ever grasp as it seems so evil to me not to aid your friend at a time of crisis. It would have been something they easily could have done without conditions and (blackmail?) ....
Why not help out if for no other reason to help curb the Islam epidemic?
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« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2006, 12:05:56 PM »

I believe in "70 X 7" ; the Pope has apologized. Too bad there is no Sultan to do the same.
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« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2006, 12:11:53 PM »

Quote
Why dont u ask a Greek Macedonian how he feels about this? Since when a non-greek country can reserve a greek NAME SUCH AS "MAKEDONIA"? do they know what the word Macedonia means? of course not..because its a greek name, as what the ancient Macedonians WERE. You can see that in the bible to. Why dont you aks them to translate what THESSALONIKI means. Or Alexander (Alexandros). They wont, because Macedonians spoke Greek,not slavic.


I agree 101%, I am completely confused by their attempt to restore the "Macedonian Identity" when they are majority slavic, and Maceodnians were greeks. BUT, I also have a heard time understanding why you would go as far as to burning their flags, which IRONICALLY are Greek flags.

Quote
A worthy cause in your opinion.  From my vantage point it is nothing but atheistic nationalism that will only serve to hurt the Orthodox Church in the long run.  If you want a cause to support, how about Albanian Orthodox missionary work? ÂÂ


Of course you are right to a certain degree. But this is no different in countries that are traditionally Orthodox. Russians, Ukrainians, Serbs, Greeks alike. People will do things "In the name of the Orthodox Church", but are nothing more than oppurtunists or posers. Serb Nationalism may have gone out of control in some people, but it is what has kept us alive after 500 years of Muslim rule, WW1, WW2, Balkan Wars. Without Serb Nationalism, the Serbian Church would not exist because the Serbian race would not exist. As a result, we have "Orthodox Christians" and Orthodox Christians, But better that than no Orthodox Christians at all. Abandoning our "Serbism" would result in the extermination of the people. It would not be dying for our faith, it would be giving up on our faith. Allowing for the extermination of our race would be a type of suicide.
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« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2006, 03:14:05 PM »


I agree 101%, I am completely confused by their attempt to restore the "Macedonian Identity" when they are majority slavic, and Maceodnians were greeks. BUT, I also have a heard time understanding why you would go as far as to burning their flags, which IRONICALLY are Greek flags.

i dont agree with burning flags of ANY nation
There are always extreme people everywhere...i havent seen anyone burn a FYROM flag, but i cant assume that hasnt happen 15 years ago during the protest marches..
 But during  protests in greece sometimes there are people (a small group of left wing anarchists usually) that burn the greek or the american flag..so what is to stop these people burning a FYROM one? or any other?
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« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2006, 03:21:53 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg126951#msg126951 date=1152201956]
I believe in "70 X 7" ; the Pope has apologized. Too bad there is no Sultan to do the same.
[/quote]

Yes, it is too bad no Sultan has. And bad PR for them in the process by not doing so. How can they expect converts to Islam when they are like this?
I'm glad in a way they have not apologized- maybe this is saving people from the false religion of Islam.
But, I guess God's plan is a mystery to us and we must accept there is a reason for all of this we just don't understand nor need to. You are right- forgiveness has no number attatched to it. And with that example, Orthodox Christians are showing themselves to be a "billboard" for Christ's teaching on forgiveness!
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« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2006, 04:08:00 PM »

What "Macedonian" ethicity?.. There is no such thing as Macedonian ethnicity. There is a temporary name for them, FYROM

The Slavs of FYROM have found a new ethnicity for themselves after previously being classified with Serbs or Bulgarians. However, the situation with the Slavs living in northern Greece is different. They have been there since the Age of Migrations. They can't be Bulgarians since they were never within the Kingdom of Bulgaria and didn't have the contact with the Bolgars that created a distinctly Bulgarian nation. So what name should they choose for themselves? The best name is "Macedonian Slavs", because they are Slavs living on the territory called Macedonia. In discussions about Slavic history and Slavonic linguistics, there is no need to use the word "Slavs", for that is understood, so these Slavs of northern Greece are often called simply "Macedonians".

Quote
Or Alexander (Alexandros). They wont, because Macedonians spoke Greek,not slavic.

While Alexander would have spoken Greek, since the Macedonian royalty was fond of the Greek language, many historians believe that the peons of Macedonia spoke a language that was not mutually intelligible with Greek. The attempt of Greeks to claim the entire Macedonian population, instead of just its aristocracy, strikes most scholars are totally ignorant nationalism.
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« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2006, 04:37:08 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg126943#msg126943 date=1152199432]
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[/quote]

If you want to know... it still looks pretty awesome (despite the minarets).  The only thing missing is the Atrium (well, and the hundreds of hundreds of crosses that the moslems dismantled from the walls and such of the Church).  It is a sight to behold.
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« Reply #73 on: July 06, 2006, 04:37:23 PM »

Quote
The attempt of Greeks to claim the entire Macedonian population, instead of just its aristocracy, strikes most scholars are totally ignorant nationalism.
I think it is the illogical consequence of the revisionism coming out of Skopje.

Unfortunately for the Greeks, much of the world is now accepting the rubbish being spewed from "Macedonia".
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« Reply #74 on: July 06, 2006, 05:03:21 PM »

If you want to know... it still looks pretty awesome (despite the minarets).  The only thing missing is the Atrium (well, and the hundreds of hundreds of crosses that the moslems dismantled from the walls and such of the Church).  It is a sight to behold.

I know. And I've spent hours with PaintShop Pro and Adobe PhotoShop removing those things -gotten pretty good at erasing them and also cleaning up photos of the interior. Too bad I altered copywrited photos or I'd post them somewhere.  Shocked
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« Reply #75 on: July 06, 2006, 05:07:00 PM »

I think it is the illogical consequence of the revisionism coming out of Skopje.

Unfortunately for the Greeks, much of the world is now accepting the rubbish being spewed from "Macedonia".

Sadly, true on both accounts. However I have never heard what these ancient Makedonians spoke seeing as they preceeded the Slavs by 1100 years or more. 'Hillybilly' Greek  Grin

Tito invented 'Macedonia' to give his captive Bulgars an identity they both could live with. At least, I think it was Tito, but in any case it happened after WWI with the new borders.
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« Reply #76 on: July 06, 2006, 05:27:46 PM »

Ok If you want the scientific explanation, for the people you call "macedonian slavs", I can give them to you through genetic research...I'm sure most of you wont be surprised, I wasnt.

Greeks

EU18 - 28%
EU4 - 22%
EU9 - 21%
Eu19 - 12%
EU7 - 8%

"Macedonians"

EU19 - 35%
Eu7 - 20%
EU9 - 15%
EU4 - 15%
EU18 - 10%
EU10 - 5%

What does this mean you ask, well I'm no pro but I have a basic understanding that the EU is a genetic strand genetisists use to differentiates the origins of the people. So here the Legend:

EU18 -  Eastern European Origin, but now considered Latins (Portugal, Spain, Italy, France etc...)
EU4 - North African, Moorish
EU9/10 - Jewish, Semitic (Middle East)
Eu19 - Eastern European Origin, recently relocated to Europe (Slavic countries)
EU7 - Viking, Epi-Gravettian

Keep in mind that this is LOOOOOOOONG before you had real civilizations, we're talking ice age time. So dont be surprised if it says somehting like 33% of greeks are from middle east, this isnt RECENTLY.

So, as you can (hopefully) make out, Macedonians are indeed "slavic", but only about 1/3. The rest is very similar to Greeks, meaning that the current macedonians are a mish mash, mostly slavic mixed with smaller groups including greeks.

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf
http://dnaconsultants.com/images/links/49-conversion.pdf
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« Reply #77 on: July 06, 2006, 05:34:27 PM »

Ok If you want the scientific explanation, for the people you call "macedonian slavs", I can give them to you through genetic research...I'm sure most of you wont be surprised, I wasnt.

Genetics is really irrelevant to the discussion. If you have a community of people speaking the same language and having a shared history apart from other peoples, it makes sense to group them. The Macedonian Slavs (those living in Macedonia in Greece) are a distinct community  regardless of their genes.
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« Reply #78 on: July 06, 2006, 05:38:06 PM »

Genetics is really irrelevant to the discussion. If you have a community of people speaking the same language and having a shared history apart from other peoples, it makes sense to group them. The Macedonian Slavs (those living in Macedonia in Greece) are a distinct communityÂÂ  regardless of their genes.

well....I just wanted to clarify that for some people, because I'm sure there are people that think macedonians are all slavs and have no connection with Greeks, and I'm sure some people believe Macedonians are direct descendants of the Greeks. This proves that it is more complicated than it may seem. If genetically, they were 80% identical to Greeks, they should have the right to call it Macedonia and the citizens Macedonians, you know what I mean?
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« Reply #79 on: July 06, 2006, 07:59:35 PM »

The Slavs of FYROM have found a new ethnicity for themselves after previously being classified with Serbs or Bulgarians. However, the situation with the Slavs living in northern Greece is different. They have been there since the Age of Migrations. They can't be Bulgarians since they were never within the Kingdom of Bulgaria and didn't have the contact with the Bolgars that created a distinctly Bulgarian nation. So what name should they choose for themselves? The best name is "Macedonian Slavs", because they are Slavs living on the territory called Macedonia. In discussions about Slavic history and Slavonic linguistics, there is no need to use the word "Slavs", for that is understood, so these Slavs of northern Greece are often called simply "Macedonians".


The slavs have found a new ethnicity for themselves.. And they decided that to be Mecedonian, just because some of them moved a long time agoÂÂ  into the Macedonian region??? So if another group of slavs(or whateverelse) lived around Athens, they could form a nation called "Athenians" right? That would make them Great decendents of Pericleus, Miltiadis, Socrates and Plato as well? Their slavic lanuage would be "Athenian"?

SO if the Slavs who live NORTH of greece (not in northern greece) are simply "macedonians", what makes the greeks that originate from the macedonian region? Or the small number of greeks that live in FYROM?
Because if Slavs live in Northern greece, they are GREEK Citizens. Because OFFICIALLY according to treaties signed last century If they are a minority, then they are either of Serbian, Bulgarian or Muslem descendency. And at the time when the treties where signed, the FYROM region was called VARDARSKA.. It became "macedonia" later as Stalin and Tito decided to rewrite history for the sake of communism


While Alexander would have spoken Greek, since the Macedonian royalty was fond of the Greek language, many historians believe that the peons of Macedonia spoke a language that was not mutually intelligible with Greek. The attempt of Greeks to claim the entire Macedonian population, instead of just its aristocracy, strikes most scholars are totally ignorant nationalism.

So which Historians actually say this and believe this? First of all ALL greeks spoke GREEK including Macedonians. But every region had a few words or an accent/dialect that is characteristic to that region. It was always like that, and it is toay like that. This is not found only in Greece, but inevery Nation. Pontic Greek has its characteristics, Cypriot Greek, Thessalian, Pelloponitian, Cretan,ÂÂ  Epirian, Trackian, Minor Asian, Konstinopolitan(when greeks were around) and Macedonian of course. This is a cheap excuse claimed by people so they can separate Macedonia from the other regions. Why dont they make the same fuss fro Trakia or Thessalia or Epirus which neibour macedonia? Where they more Greek than Macedonians?? No but its nice to suddenly claim that Alexander was their ancestor and maybe was a slav.. That when the bible speaks of Macedonians, the people of FYROM (actually 70-80% of them because the remaining 20-30% are albanians..) can relate to this.. Even though the PROTO-Slavs arrived at the SOUTH part of the balcans more than 700+ years later

How could macedonians spoke a different language, when their writting was in greek, when they participated in the olympic games(ONLY GREEKS WHERE ALLOWED IN THE GAMES), their names where Greek. It must of been Greek based dialect right?

Not only the nobles decended from the Greeks.... First of all Alexanders's great ancestor Perdiccas (the first Macedonian King) had moved to the region from Argos and established cities and people from Argos moved there. And people from other regions moved there.ÂÂ  Nearby cities, where cities established by the Athenians (chalkidiki) and cities built by other Greeks..

People make it sound that Macedonia is a far away region but is very close to south Greece,in the past it took only a day or 2 by hourse to get there.. Mount Olympus is in Macedonia (borders with Thessaly).

There is this false impression that ancient Macedonia was mostly the part that FYROM owns today, but FYROM is what was regarded as north part of Macedonia. The heart of Macedonia was the region that belongs today to Greece. Where all ancient ruins display clearly (as well as the ones found in FYROM) magnificent GREEK architecture
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« Reply #80 on: July 06, 2006, 08:22:59 PM »

The slavs have found a new ethnicity for themselves.. And they decided that to be Mecedonian, just because some of them moved a long time ago  into the Macedonian region??? So if another group of slavs(or whateverelse) lived around Athens, they could form a nation called "Athenians" right? That would make them Great decendents of Pericleus, Miltiadis, Socrates and Plato as well? Their slavic lanuage would be "Athenian"?

Sure, that's perfectly valid. After all, the inhabitants of Britain are called "Brits" even though their language comes from southern Denmark and they have few cultural ties to the people of ancient Britannia. People in Spain (from Phonecian "ishpan-") are called Spaniards even though they speak a Romance language that was introduced later. When people move into a territory, they tend to retain the name that was there before.

Quote
SO if the Slavs who live NORTH of greece (not in northern greece) are simply "macedonians", what makes the greeks that originate from the macedonian region? Or the small number of greeks that live in FYROM?

I'm speaking of the Slavs that live within the border of Greece. They are Macedonian Slavs. Greek speakers living in Macedonia are, of course, Greek Macedonians.

Quote
Because if Slavs live in Northern greece, they are GREEK Citizens.

One's citizenship does not determine one's ethnicity.

Quote
Because OFFICIALLY according to treaties signed last century If they are a minority, then they are either of Serbian, Bulgarian or Muslem descendency.

Having the Slavs of Greek Macedonia identify with the Serbs or Bulgarians was forced upon them because they were too small a community to be counted in their own right. It was an unjust situation. Thessaloniki, for example, was once home to a significant Slavic population in its hinterlands. Byzantine Emperor Michael III told St Cyril that a Thessalonian was an ideal missionary because "all Thessalonians speak perfect Slavonic" (see the Vita). Yet, the Bulgarians insist that the Slavs there were Bulgarians. How could they be? They were never within the Kingdom of Bulgaria. They spoke a dialect of Slavonic different from that of Bulgaria. Ditto for Serbia. The Slavs living inside Greece since the Age of Migrations are a distinct people. They are not Serbs or Bulgarians, and it's a pity FYROM got the name that it did, because the "Macedonians" of FYROM (really just reclassified Serbs or Bulgarians) are not the same as the Macedonian Slavs of nothern Greece.

Quote
How could macedonians spoke a different language, when their writting was in greek, when they participated in the olympic games(ONLY GREEKS WHERE ALLOWED IN THE GAMES), their names where Greek. It must of been Greek based dialect right?

The language of the aristocracy is not necessarily the same as that of the peons.
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« Reply #81 on: July 06, 2006, 08:23:59 PM »


Me too.How can RCC call Orthodox "sister church" and "other lung" when you would never do this to your sister or your other lung.

Different times, different people, different language.  Over time things have changed.  One should always try to remember the historical times and context of an eventl.

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« Reply #82 on: July 06, 2006, 08:26:17 PM »

the "Macedonians" of FYROM (really just reclassified Serbs or Bulgarians) are not the same as the Macedonian Slavs of nothern Greece.

I'm afraid I disagree with just that one claim... so what are they if they arent the Macedonians from Fyrom?
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« Reply #83 on: July 06, 2006, 08:48:39 PM »

I'm afraid I disagree with just that one claim... so what are they if they arent the Macedonians from Fyrom?

They are Slavs from Greek Macedonia.
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« Reply #84 on: July 06, 2006, 09:11:51 PM »

They are Slavs from Greek Macedonia.

Are you saying they are Slavs, but somehow distinct from both Bulgars AND Serbs?  If so, I think that is quite unlikely.

Surely you know of the Bulgarian influence in the region, not to mention the reign of Tsar Dusan who conquered well into Greece, making the likelihood of those who remain ancestors of either Serbs or Bulgars.

Linguistically, I've found some interesting things with the Slavs of Northern Greece.

For example...

Serbian:  Gde si  - Where are you

FYROM:   Kaj si 

Polog Valley (North Fyrom - Serbian border); Deka Si

Northern Greece (Slavs); Deja Si

The only really unique version is the "pure" FYROM version.  The others look and sound very Serbian.

Similarly....

Serbian:   Sta = What?  (pronounced shta)

FYROM & North Greece Slavs:   So (pronounced sho)

North FYROM:  Sto (pronounced Shto) - a mix of the two.
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« Reply #85 on: July 06, 2006, 09:12:22 PM »

Sure, that's perfectly valid. After all, the inhabitants of Britain are called "Brits" even though their language comes from southern Denmark and they have few cultural ties to the people of ancient Britannia. People in Spain (from Phonecian "ishpan-") are called Spaniards even though they speak a Romance language that was introduced later. When people move into a territory, they tend to retain the name that was there before.

There is a big difference here my friend . the situation in macedonia can not be related at all with Britain or Spain. First of all after the fall of Macedonia to the Romans, there was never a kindom of macedonia, for people of non-greek identity to mix or overpopulate and rule the kingdom with the macedonian identity. Macedonia was maily Byzantine, with a few small gaps of Serbian and Bulgarian rule. Then came the Ottoman empire. Of course there where population shifts in the region, but it never lost its Greek identity. So how can the slavs of macedonia not relate to the srbs or Bulgarians that where always the neibouring nations? Who travelled within the ottoman empire? If they where not greek, or muslem (that where the majority in the big cities in macedonia during the ottoman times) they where of serbian or bulgarian decendancy.

I'm speaking of the Slavs that live within the border of Greece. They are Macedonian Slavs. Greek speakers living in Macedonia are, of course, Greek Macedonians.
yes geographically they can be called slavomacedonian.ÂÂ  But macedonian as an ethnicity not. Because there is none.
And u speak about slavs in northern greece. There are very very few. Mainly in villages bordering FYROM. But there are a few greeks (like the falmily of a friend of mine) living in these villages who's grandparents speak slavic, but are Greeks.

One's citizenship does not determine one's ethnicity.

i couldnt agree more. When there is an ethnicity ofcourse

Having the Slavs of Greek Macedonia identify with the Serbs or Bulgarians was forced upon them because they were too small a community to be counted in their own right. It was an unjust situation. Thessaloniki, for example, was once home to a significant Slavic population in its hinterlands. Byzantine Emperor Michael III told St Cyril that a Thessalonian was an ideal missionary because "all Thessalonians speak perfect Slavonic" (see the Vita). Yet, the Bulgarians insist that the Slavs there were Bulgarians. How could they be? They were never within the Kingdom of Bulgaria. They spoke a dialect of Slavonic different from that of Bulgaria. Ditto for Serbia. The Slavs living inside Greece since the Age of Migrations are a distinct people. They are not Serbs or Bulgarians, and it's a pity FYROM got the name that it did, because the "Macedonians" of FYROM (really just reclassified Serbs or Bulgarians) are not the same as the Macedonian Slavs of nothern Greece.


Excuse me whichÂÂ  Macedonian Slavs of nothern Greece are we talking about? a few maybe thousand that live in villages in Florina, or kastoria close to the borders with FYROM? And even these people,if not greek, i am sure if they go realy back they will find ancestry as either Serbian or Bulgarian or even Vlach.

How can they be distinct people, who says this? Didnt they come from serbia, bulgaria, russia or Roumania? Or did they appear out of nowhere? Or maybe under Bugarian or Serbian rule they where justÂÂ  slavic speaking greeks? Because the Bulgarians during their rule did try to cut from the greeks the connection with Greece and the Bulgarian church tried to establich an exarchate in greek macedonia. They even took over (by force) mount Athos.

i maybe not getting you, but the whole "macedonian" issue doesnt come from a few thousand slavomacedonians in Greece..It comes from FYROM...


The language of the aristocracy is not necessarily the same as that of the peons.
But ethnicity is there in the case of the ancient Macedonians
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« Reply #86 on: July 06, 2006, 09:17:51 PM »

i maybe not getting you, but the whole "macedonian" issue doesnt come from a few thousand slavomacedonians in Greece..It comes from FYROM...

NO IT DOESN'T!!!  IT COMES FROM MY IDIOT BROTHER-IN-LAW!!!! Grin Grin Grin Grin

Sadly, that is not even a joke (but that is an entire topic onto itself).  Wink
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« Reply #87 on: July 07, 2006, 12:11:19 AM »

Re: the language thing...

It's a dialect continuum.  So obviously the language classifications based upon standard national languages are going to have overlap and be inherently political.  Still if someone wishes to identity their native language as South Slavic but based on neither the standard of Belgrade nor Sofia - why try to deny them that?

What I really am curious about is why so many Greeks, Serbs, and Bulgarians seem to feel almost threatened by a Macedonian ethnicity and language?  Most of the claims being ascribed to Macedonians here are fabriacations of the mainstream and acedemic histories being put forth from Macedonia - i.e that they are Slavs and hence have no ethnic connection to the ancient macedonians.

I am honestly fascinated by this discussion.  There is such a strong and dogmatic belief in the the history and mythology of the nationstate - Macedonia is Greek, Kosovo is Serbia (or Macedonian nationalists that want to deny any Greek heritage to Macedonia) etc. without any care for the multicultural histories or present situations for these regions nor for their current lack of homogeneous populations.

And I'm American, an ethnicity that certainly didn't exist until recently, but I highly doubt that anyone would say that I'm not an American.     


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« Reply #88 on: July 07, 2006, 01:00:51 AM »

Thanks for twisting this yet further, kind Νεκταριος  Wink

Some present day (pd-) Greeks are descended from ancient Macedonians be they in pd-Greek Macedonia or the FYROM.

Some in both pd-Greek Macedonia and in FYROM are Slavs and/or Bulgars by ancestry.

I guess the rub is that pd-Greeks claim the ancient Macedonians as Greeks; and the pd-FYROM wishes to, what, claim they are descended from non-Greek Macedonians (who couldn't be Slavs or Bulgars)?

This is fun. Where is Canmak?

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« Reply #89 on: July 07, 2006, 01:09:30 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg127076#msg127076 date=1152245479]
Re: the language thing...

It's a dialect continuum.ÂÂ  So obviously the language classifications based upon standard national languages are going to have overlap and be inherently political.ÂÂ  Still if someone wishes to identity their native language as South Slavic but based on neither the standard of Belgrade nor Sofia - why try to deny them that?
[/quote]

Not that I'm going to claim Macedonians as south serbs (although it is definitly debatable), but the current macedonian language that Serbs cant really understand, is infact VERY similar (if not nearly identical, I dont know, I didnt live 1000 years ago) to Old Serbian, spoken before and during Ottoman rule. How do I know this? Well Serbs know about old serbian words that arent used today, but thanks to my good old friend Martin, I find out that those ancient words are being used by Macedonians. For example, razbiraj (understand) alal vera (good job) and many others. Theres also a movie if I may recall (maybe a Serb/Macedonian on this forum has seen it) called Zora Zamfira (sp?) which is a serbian movie, but one that when released in Serbia, audiences asked for subtitles because some points they couldnt understand. The story took play looooong ago, hence them speaking some form of Macedonian. This is just my interpretation, that their language is some form of Old Serbian, atleast from what I think. But I have no idea how Bulgarian relates, except my friend told me they understand Serbian much better than Bulgarian.

Deny? No one is denying their tongue. In serbia its called Makedonski, not like they call it Old serbian or anything. BUt my point is that its not merely a dialect, theirs something more to it.

Quote
What I really am curious about is why so many Greeks, Serbs, and Bulgarians seem to feel almost threatened by a Macedonian ethnicity and language?

 Huh Huh Huh Huh I can speak for Serbs but not for Greeks or Bulgarians. We are one of the few countries to actually recognize their name, Macedonia, although I feel we shouldnt, in respect to our Greek brothers. Serbia actually has very good relations with Macedonia.

Quote
(or Macedonian nationalists that want to deny any Greek heritage to Macedonia)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Macedonian nationalists acknowledge themselves to be the descendants of ancint Macedonians (and Alexander), thus actually believing they are of North Greek descent. Then you have the ones that claim to be South Serbs....

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« Reply #90 on: July 07, 2006, 02:07:04 AM »

BrotherAidan: What say you to your specious claims?

Mo, which specious claim are you referring to?

the part about being sojourners and seeking a heavenly kingdom, not made of hands? Isn't that St. Paul's point in Hebrews? especially chapter 12?

or maybe the part about "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us"? I think Jesus kind of hoped we would mean it when we pray it - even forgiving people who lived a millennium ago! He had quite a bit more to say about forgiveness that I have always taken as commandments and not suggestions. (personally I have a lot of sins to be sorry for, but the ones that really make me fear for my soul are my petty resentments and grudges - Jesus made it pretty clear that if we don't forgive, we may not be forgiven; in fact He seems to say we won't be forgiven.

Maybe it was the idea that if one wants to argue for all of these reparations, then you better be consistent and be willing to make reparations to black Americans and Native Americans. (For those of you who aren't US citizens, this point is irrelevant.) Why is taking native American land different from taking Greek land? Why is deporting blacks from their native land and making them slaves different from deporting Greeks from Turkey? For Native Americans, nature itself was their icon (not that I am defending their pagan religion, but in comparing apples to apples, stealing icons and relics or stealing the very environment that was their point of religious focus is a valid comparison).

Maybe it was my point about grieving for a fallen, lost world. Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel also doesn't seem to be a suggestion. I would love to see 6 pages on OC.net of impassioned discussion about how we can re-evangelize out post-churched or pagan neighbors! Instead, those discussions just degenerate into some critique of evangelicals, fundamentalists and charasmatics, rather than a reasoned discussion of just what IS Orthodox evangelism - being Christ's witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and the uttermost parts of the earth.

Sorry, I have lost patience for all of this ethnic stuff. It is not essential to Orthodoxy. It is not essential to Christianity. It is not essential to the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

My ancestors were a mongrel mix of English, Scotch-Irish, and Germans who all left crappy situations in the homeland, religious or economic to come to America and make a better life for themselves. Like most Americans, I don't know a whole lot about my ancestors and their histories. I don't feel particularly bad about it and I am not going to do pennance over it as a condition of being accepted as Othodox.

I was not being provocative (well, maybe just a little). I sincerely believe that it is time to get over it and move on.

I think it was Elisha that said I didn't respond to the OP. That is true. But it wouldn't be the first time on OC.net that somone went off-topic and hijacked a thread. Actually, very few people responded to what I wrote so my comments have been not much more than a sidebar.

I don't think too many responses on this thread were by Greeks living in Greece, Asia Minor, Maccedonia or wherever; or Serbs livng in Serbia. Or Russians living in Russia.

My point is that God hasn't placed you in those lands. Try figuring out what it means to be an Orthodox Christian in Australia, or the UK, or Canada, or Europe, or a South American country, or the United States of America. How to live it and then how to reach  your lost neighbors and then maybe a lost world.

I converted to a Church, not an ethnicity. I think my English ancestors on one side were overrun and displaced by my Norman ancestors on the other. Whose side am I to take? My English and Norman ancestors made life pretty difficult for my Scotch ancestors who moved to northern Ireland and made it difficult for the locals there. Whose side do I take? Germany fought against England in WWI and WWII. Where do I go with that?

Well, it's interesting, but am all of them and NONE of them, I am an American! And I am an American Orthodox. Maybe we should spill some ink figuring THAT out (the same for you Brits, Aussies, and others on OC.net)

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
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« Reply #91 on: July 07, 2006, 02:22:14 AM »

Quote
But I have no idea how Bulgarian relates, except my friend told me they understand Serbian much better than Bulgarian.

Interesting, as all of the Bulgarians that I know swear they understand Macedonian with no problem.  As far as I can tell, the Bulgarian nationalist line is that Macedonians are Serbianized Bulgarians.  But, I've never had to do much reading on Bulgarian/Macedonian relations... so maybe I'll try to look into this further when I get a chance.

Quote
Not that I'm going to claim Macedonians as south serbs (although it is definitly debatable), but the current macedonian language that Serbs cant really understand, is infact VERY similar (if not nearly identical, I dont know, I didnt live 1000 years ago) to Old Serbian, spoken before and during Ottoman rule.

I don't know about vocabularly, but Macedonian grammar is wild compared to Serbian.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language#Grammar Doesn't the dialect of Serbian spoken from Niš on south start to do wierd things as well, like not use cases (we sort of glossed over that in class, but nothing very specific was mentioned)?

Quote
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Macedonian nationalists acknowledge themselves to be the descendants of ancint Macedonians (and Alexander), thus actually believing they are of North Greek descent. Then you have the ones that claim to be South Serbs....

Let's just settle it and say that they (like everyone else in the Balkans) are actually the TRUE Illyrians (honestly what is so special about the Illyrians, that EVERYONE wants to be descended from them...).  Honestly though, I had thought that it was only the wacky nationalists that made the Alexander the Great claim, NOT the maintstream.  But, I'll go searching and see what I can find. ÂÂ
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« Reply #92 on: July 07, 2006, 03:15:17 AM »


He had quite a bit more to say about forgiveness that I have always taken as commandments and not suggestions. (personally I have a lot of sins to be sorry for, but the ones that really make me fear for my soul are my petty resentments and grudges - Jesus made it pretty clear that if we don't forgive, we may not be forgiven; in fact He seems to say we won't be forgiven.]

You have taken as commandments? Oh, are the commandments up for debate now?
" He seems to say....
I think we are all on the same page about forgiveness.
Jesus did not "seem" to say that, he said it.



[Maybe it was the idea that if one wants to argue for all of these reparations, then you better be consistent and be willing to make reparations to black Americans and Native Americans. (For those of you who aren't US citizens, this point is irrelevant.) ]


Um, this was discussed already on this thread. No one, as far as I remember has suggested any reparations per se as you assert.


Why is taking native American land different from taking Greek land?

If it were that basic as a "land only deal" I might think on that.......


Why is deporting blacks from their native land and making them slaves different from deporting Greeks from Turkey?

I'll give you a clue- many "blacks" gathered and sold their own to the big bad white men to take them away to the US. Read up on it sometime.



For Native Americans, nature itself was their icon (not that I am defending their pagan religion, but in comparing apples to apples, stealing icons and relics or stealing the very environment that was their point of religious focus is a valid comparison).


Hey, I understand you are not defending their Pagan religion.
BTW - what religion were you defending with your BLACK comments?



Maybe it was my point about grieving for a fallen, lost world. Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel also doesn't seem to be a suggestion.

I agree! Where were you when I was looking for the true Church???


 I would love to see 6 pages on OC.net of impassioned discussion about how we can re-evangelize out post-churched or pagan neighbors!

Suggestion: Start a new thread.


Instead, those discussions just degenerate into some critique of evangelicals, fundamentalists and charasmatics, rather than a reasoned discussion of just what IS Orthodox evangelism - being Christ's witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and the uttermost parts of the earth.

OK. Tell me more about that, I'm interested.

Sorry, I have lost patience for all of this ethnic stuff. It is not essential to Orthodoxy. It is not essential to Christianity. It is not essential to the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church.


And so far, I agree. I still do not see your point.



...... I am not going to do pennance over it as a condition of being accepted as Othodox.

That is a relief. Why did you think you would have to?



I was not being provocative (well, maybe just a little). I sincerely believe that it is time to get over it and move on.

Who has "not gotten over it?" Me? I never had to go through it let alone over it.


I think it was Elisha that said I didn't respond to the OP. That is true.

Thank you for your honesty.


 But it wouldn't be the first time on OC.net that somone went off-topic and hijacked a thread. Actually, very few people responded to what I wrote so my comments have been not much more than a sidebar.

I posted the Original Thread. How was it hihacked?


I don't think too many responses on this thread were by Greeks living in Greece, Asia Minor, Maccedonia or wherever; or Serbs livng in Serbia. Or Russians living in Russia.

You may be right - I may be crazy , but you just may be that lunatic I'm looking for.....  Billy Joel.........Could be off on the lyrics a bit, but.....


My point is that God hasn't placed you in those lands. Try figuring out what it means to be an Orthodox Christian in Australia, or the UK, or Canada, or Europe, or a South American country, or the United States of America. How to live it and then how to reachÂÂ  your lost neighbors and then maybe a lost world.

That is not the subject of the thread. A good one if you want to start one, but this is about the RCC and the Orthodox- Re read the thread. Are you or have you ever been an RCC??? Or do you want to speculate on it?

I

converted to a Church, not an ethnicity. I think my English ancestors on one side were overrun and displaced by my Norman ancestors on the other. Whose side am I to take? My English and Norman ancestors made life pretty difficult for my Scotch ancestors who moved to northern Ireland and made it difficult for the locals there. Whose side do I take? Germany fought against England in WWI and WWII. Where do I go with that?

I'm not sure. My father's name is MacArthur. I will ask him for you.
PS - he was baptised RC and left the church at 18 and never went back.
I'll still ask if you want.


Well, it's interesting, but am all of them and NONE of them, I am an American! And I am an American Orthodox. Maybe we should spill some ink figuring THAT out (the same for you Brits, Aussies, and others on OC.net)

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
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« Reply #93 on: July 07, 2006, 03:26:11 AM »

I think it was Elisha that said I didn't respond to the OP. That is true. But it wouldn't be the first time on OC.net that somone went off-topic and hijacked a thread. Actually, very few people responded to what I wrote so my comments have been not much more than a sidebar.

Yes, you are correct.  The point is (OF THIS THREAD), we have a Roman Catholic inquirer into Orthodoxy who is (genuinely...as in NOT trolling from what I can tell) wondering why many RCs seem to be ignorant about the Crusades, involvement with the Orthodox, etc.  I don't think thread hijacking is ever condoned in any serious discussion...much less for the excuse of "well others have done it too"...which sounds like a little kid whining.
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« Reply #94 on: July 07, 2006, 07:57:18 AM »

Elisha

I already said you were correct.

I wish we all wrote perfect posts, always on topic and never straying from the OP; I didn't and it obviously annoyed you. Don't resort to calling me child.

Personally, I fail to see how a discussion of Macedonia is part of the original thread, if one wants to stay within a strict definiton of the subject field of the OP.

But that is how the thread developed, so that's that.

As I said, my comments have amounted to not much more than a sidebar. So the thread was not hijacked.
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« Reply #95 on: July 07, 2006, 08:14:12 AM »

Dismus,
thank you for taking the time to respond to my lengthy post. I know some of it was re-hashing, but Mo asked a pretty broad question of me. Had there been a specific quote of mine prefacing his post, I could have responded just to that.

You are obviously making a serious inquiry into Orthodoxy and I rather uncharitably "jumped" on your OP with an opinion of mine that was somewhat off-topic. I did not wish to be uncharitable and I apologise to you for that.

Perhaps, however, this whole thread will show you that the whole issue of ethnicity is a big one in Orthodoxy. Not that it has anything to do with the ultimate reason one should convert, if that is what you conclude you must do because you are persuaded that Orthodoxy is the true Church. Just something to be aware of. But one can stub his toe on it from time to time.

I still must differ with you regarding American blacks. I don't think they are the only race betrayed by others of their race. In fact, your point tends rather to prove my point. Blacks of a different TRIBE betrayed and sold other blacks to a different race. Most of the post-ers here feel that Caucasians of one tribe (Italians) betrayed and sold out caucasians of another tribe (Greek) to another race of people, the Turks (a mongul tribe).


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« Reply #96 on: July 07, 2006, 08:21:25 AM »

So, the OP was why do so few Catholics know about Hagia Sophia and the sacking of Constantinople.

Well, I asked my Catholic friend, who does know about it, and this was his response:

By 1170, about 80,000 Italian merchants lived in suburban neighborhoods
of the city.
Those merchant settlements were a constant source of irritation, not
only because they reminded the Byzantines how dependent they were on
the foreigners, but also because each group of Italians—from Pisa,
Amalfi, Genoa, Venice, and so on—hated all the other groups. In 1171,
the Genoese settlement was attacked and burned. The Emperor blamed the
Venetians, and immediately arrested tens of thousands. His roundup of
the Venetians was so swift that it had obviously been planned long
before the attack on the Genoese. The incident left the Venetians with
an implacable thirst for revenge.
Finally, in August of 1182, a Byzantine mob took up the task of a
thorough ethnic cleansing. In a frenzy of violence, they murdered
virtually all the Westerners in the city — men, women, children, the
elderly, and even people who were sick in hospital beds. When the
Byzantines were confident their city was rid of the Western menace,
they burnt the Latin neighborhoods to the ground. Now the Venetians
were not alone in wishing vengeance.
In 1185, a Sicilian fleet seized Thessalonica, the second city of the
Empire. The usual riot of pillage and murder followed. When the news
reached Constantinople, it caused yet another in the long string of
palace revolutions that plagued the Empire. Three months later, the
Sicilians had been expelled. But they had shown that the Byzantine
Empire had to worry seriously about Christian enemies from the West as
well as Muslim enemies from the East.

So, that is one Catholic's understanding of why the Crusaders went to Constantinople and sacked the city.
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« Reply #97 on: July 07, 2006, 08:23:33 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg127076#msg127076 date=1152245479]
Re: the language thing...

It's a dialect continuum.ÂÂ  So obviously the language classifications based upon standard national languages are going to have overlap and be inherently political.ÂÂ  Still if someone wishes to identity their native language as South Slavic but based on neither the standard of Belgrade nor Sofia - why try to deny them that?

What I really am curious about is why so many Greeks, Serbs, and Bulgarians seem to feel almost threatened by a Macedonian ethnicity and language?ÂÂ  Most of the claims being ascribed to Macedonians here are fabriacations of the mainstream and acedemic histories being put forth from Macedonia - i.e that they are Slavs and hence have no ethnic connection to the ancient macedonians.

I am honestly fascinated by this discussion.ÂÂ  There is such a strong and dogmatic belief in the the history and mythology of the nationstate - Macedonia is Greek, Kosovo is Serbia (or Macedonian nationalists that want to deny any Greek heritage to Macedonia) etc. without any care for the multicultural histories or present situations for these regions nor for their current lack of homogeneous populations.

And I'm American, an ethnicity that certainly didn't exist until recently, but I highly doubt that anyone would say that I'm not an American. [/quote]

I'm going to start a new thread on this issue, since I think we are taking this subject way off topic.  I'll post a link after creation.
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« Reply #98 on: July 07, 2006, 08:44:34 AM »

For those looking to continue the "Macedonian debate", I've created a new thread in the unmoderated politics section.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=9464.new#new
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« Reply #99 on: July 07, 2006, 01:13:57 PM »

So, the OP was why do so few Catholics know about Hagia Sophia and the sacking of Constantinople.

Well, I asked my Catholic friend, who does know about it, and this was his response:

By 1170, about 80,000 Italian merchants lived in suburban neighborhoods
of the city.
Those merchant settlements were a constant source of irritation, not
only because they reminded the Byzantines how dependent they were on
the foreigners, but also because each group of Italians—from Pisa,
Amalfi, Genoa, Venice, and so on—hated all the other groups. In 1171,
the Genoese settlement was attacked and burned. The Emperor blamed the
Venetians, and immediately arrested tens of thousands. His roundup of
the Venetians was so swift that it had obviously been planned long
before the attack on the Genoese. The incident left the Venetians with
an implacable thirst for revenge.
Finally, in August of 1182, a Byzantine mob took up the task of a
thorough ethnic cleansing. In a frenzy of violence, they murdered
virtually all the Westerners in the city — men, women, children, the
elderly, and even people who were sick in hospital beds. When the
Byzantines were confident their city was rid of the Western menace,
they burnt the Latin neighborhoods to the ground. Now the Venetians
were not alone in wishing vengeance.
In 1185, a Sicilian fleet seized Thessalonica, the second city of the
Empire. The usual riot of pillage and murder followed. When the news
reached Constantinople, it caused yet another in the long string of
palace revolutions that plagued the Empire. Three months later, the
Sicilians had been expelled. But they had shown that the Byzantine
Empire had to worry seriously about Christian enemies from the West as
well as Muslim enemies from the East.

So, that is one Catholic's understanding of why the Crusaders went to Constantinople and sacked the city.



Thanks for the post. I'm a bit speechless over it.
However, I wonder if these initial squabbles your friend cites here were done
as religious acts or random secular stupid acts, (done in the name of God/Chritianity/ my Church is better than yours/) or just stupid racisim stuff?
I think I am narrowing down my concerns to the religious here, that is why the conversation about the "blacks" is interesting to me but not my concern here or in this forum.
If what your friend says is correct then that is like saying that Rome is a puppet of popular opinion.
We are mad Pope- let's get 'em!
I just can't believe that. But, let's say it is the case, that explains the Sack but not the refusal to aid them when attacked afterward.
You would think the guilt over the Sack would be motivating to do so.
Whatever. I will never be able to understand it since we can not imagine what the Cultural norms of society were then. What looks schocking to us now may have not been so "out there" as it seems to us now. Hopefully us humans have evolved a bit since then.
Thanks for your post and I hope you are not upset with my response to your earlier post. I appreciate your comments even if I don't see it the same way as you do.
Have a good day!
Be proud to be Scottish. I am.
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« Reply #100 on: July 07, 2006, 01:26:09 PM »

On a much lighter note and one that may be off-point on the thread (apologize!!) I thought it was too interesting to not mention.
All this talk about Hagia Sophia and guess what was in a local paper July 6, 2006 p 5 of the edison-norwood times review-
A photo of Hagia Sophia submitted by Peter Gallios of Park Ridge from his trip to Turkey last year....
It is so beautiful.
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« Reply #101 on: July 07, 2006, 03:22:58 PM »

Cool about the newspaper!
Maybe there is some sort of symmetry there!
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« Reply #102 on: July 07, 2006, 06:20:58 PM »

Whatever. I will never be able to understand it since we can not imagine what the Cultural norms of society were then. What looks schocking to us now may have not been so "out there" as it seems to us now. Hopefully us humans have evolved a bit since then.

ASIDE:

Evolved? To what?- We jump off bridges, divorce like crazy, have no consistency in our "love lives", have entoxicated ourselves with fumes, and sugar, and thus are killing our world...sure people may have stunk a litle back then and didn't have electricity, but I think the overall person in the world 1000 years ago was more conscious of the self, of God, of others, of their surroundings whereas today its all about the "me box", trapped in our cars, on our pc's,video games, or on our cell phones...
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« Reply #103 on: July 07, 2006, 06:25:38 PM »

ASIDE:

Evolved? To what?- We jump off bridges, divorce like crazy, have no consistency in our "love lives", have entoxicated ourselves with fumes, and sugar, and thus are killing our world...sure people may have stunk a litle back then and didn't have electricity, but I think the overall person in the world 1000 years ago was more conscious of the self, of God, of others, of their surroundings whereas today its all about the "me box", trapped in our cars, on our pc's,video games, or on our cell phones...

Dont forget the mass psycho serial murders....and other sick minded folk we have "evolved" to today.
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« Reply #104 on: July 07, 2006, 06:42:19 PM »

True true Sloga. I forgot about those ones...we've evolved but not higher in some senses- rather much lower.

Interestingly enough as I've read, on their way to attack the City, the Crusaders turned their ships to Zadar (Croatia) when they ran out of supplies and also sacked this town. As a result, Pope Innocent III excommuniated everyone involved. I wonder if (or why not) any Pope ever excommunicated anyone for doing the same to Constantinople??
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« Reply #105 on: July 07, 2006, 06:43:31 PM »

 I'm from Zadar Smiley
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« Reply #106 on: July 07, 2006, 06:52:00 PM »

True true Sloga. I forgot about those ones...we've evolved but not higher in some senses- rather much lower.

Interestingly enough as I've read, on their way to attack the City, the Crusaders turned their ships to Zadar (Croatia) when they ran out of supplies and also sacked this town. As a result, Pope Innocent III excommuniated everyone involved. I wonder if (or why not) any Pope ever excommunicated anyone for doing the same to Constantinople??

I guess you are right. it's just the wishful thinking in me that wants to think we are less brutish of a sick class of humanity as a whole, that's all. But you make a good point.
I don't know about your excommunication by the Pope though. But I can say this- one who sins that gravely has excommunicated themselves by that action.
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« Reply #107 on: July 07, 2006, 07:03:45 PM »


Interestingly enough as I've read, on their way to attack the City, the Crusaders turned their ships to Zadar (Croatia) when they ran out of supplies and also sacked this town. As a result, Pope Innocent III excommuniated everyone involved. I wonder if (or why not) any Pope ever excommunicated anyone for doing the same to Constantinople??

No, he did not. In fact he forgave most of those he excommunicated after they took Constantine's City.
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« Reply #108 on: July 07, 2006, 07:42:46 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg127194#msg127194 date=1152313425]
No, he did not. In fact he forgave most of those he excommunicated after they took Constantine's City.
[/quote]

What? He did that? That is just plain crazy. How can the RCC say the Pope has never erred on matters of faith or morals then?
This is not something that I knew before. How crazy is that?
This does not fall under the apology given by John Paul since he did not include apologizing for this. How could he apologize for it even if he wanted to due to the way the Pope is understood by Catholics???
What a mess. For me that is. This completely makes a mockery of the faith and morals claim.
Oh well, I am clearly in need of some prayer over this and I will bug off to do so.
Have a great evening everyone! I have really been learning a lot here.
I just wish I had known this stuff before.
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« Reply #109 on: July 07, 2006, 08:34:43 PM »

What? He did that? That is just plain crazy. How can the RCC say the Pope has never erred on matters of faith or morals then?
This is not something that I knew before. How crazy is that?
This does not fall under the apology given by John Paul since he did not include apologizing for this. How could he apologize for it even if he wanted to due to the way the Pope is understood by Catholics???
What a mess. For me that is. This completely makes a mockery of the faith and morals claim.
Oh well, I am clearly in need of some prayer over this and I will bug off to do so.
Have a great evening everyone! I have really been learning a lot here.
I just wish I had known this stuff before.

While I am not a truly a Catholic anymore, I was one, and what Rome means when the Pope can't err in faith or morals, that is when he speaks ex cathedra.ÂÂ  This is a very unOrthodox view, at the same time, the RCC isn't saying (what I see you interpreting as, correct me if I am wrong) that the Pope has never ever sinned in the area of morals or that he has never taught something contrary to the RC faith (to the Orthodox faith he has been preaching heresy for about 1000 years now, but I am looking at this as if I were a RC).  However, the Catholic position that the Pope is infallible in certain issues is a heretical teaching, and must be condemned as such.
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« Reply #110 on: July 07, 2006, 09:49:00 PM »

BrotherAidan: What say you to your specious claims?

Mo, which specious claim are you referring to?

   " The sacking of Constantiople did not lead to it`s downfall to the Muslims"
Did you read my original reply to this quote?
 As I stated before, it can be reasonably argued that the Latin invasion lead to the downfall of the city/empire.
I am limiting my point to this issue alone as I tend to agree with you concerning nationalism .
However, while it is important for cradle-born to respect converts zeal for the faith, it is equally important ( if not more so) for converts to understand the sacrifices that Greeks , Russians , Serbs...etc. have made to keep the faith alive . As a convert , I have grown to understand how Orthodoxy and national identity have ( naturally) become intertwined and have become truly thankful to our Orthodox ancestors for their sacrifice.
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« Reply #111 on: July 08, 2006, 01:26:19 AM »

Mo
okay, I understand you now!
Good words.
The ethnicity thing is not a big thing in my parish (except in the choir); it's more here on OC.net.

I need to stay away from here - it can be very faith-destructing - cyber space in general, but in these threads we all say so much. Most of it is opinion and you know what they say about opinions!!  Roll Eyes

Peace to you!
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« Reply #112 on: July 08, 2006, 01:33:39 AM »

.

I need to stay away from here - it can be very faith-destructing - cyber space in general, but in these threads we all say so much. Most of it is opinion and you know what they say about opinions!!ÂÂ  Roll Eyes


That is why I stay so much on the Prayer Forum! The Prayer Forum is very different from the corrosive atmosphere of the debates that go on elsewhere on this site!
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« Reply #113 on: July 08, 2006, 03:11:28 AM »

I must apologize for adding to the corrosive atmosphere with the original post..
I had no idea what the story was.
Had I known I would never asked the question as I really am sorry that anyone had to go through anguish over it.
That was not my intention at all. If it matters at all to anyone here, everyone of you has helped me sort this question out in my mind and I am ever so gratefull for that and all the information I got that I dare say would have never been done without you all.
Thank you and please accept my humble apology for even posting the question. I learned a lot that I would have never gotten out of books or one sided opinions here.
I really just have so many questions that you may give up on answering them! I just want to do the right thing. I mean well. That is why I am here. I was drawn to this a long time ago,, but I have tried to push it aside..
Thanks again, and please accept my apology as I am only looking for some answers to questions that I can not ignore. Not anymore.
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« Reply #114 on: July 08, 2006, 09:05:13 AM »



Everyone is talking about the problem called "ethnicity". Well in this topic here we are talking about historic events and everyone has a say from his point of view. However, i think the conversations here, although can go off topic, or be a little intense, are done in quite a behaved manner (in my opinion). We cant all agree. But with love and respect, we can share our thoughts, go back, do research and then discuss it.

Yes our othodox ancestors did alot for the faith, but that doesnt mean that the Greeks, Russian and Serbs and etc are the only ones entitled to the faith, or should be the "special ones" inside the faith. The church belongs to ALL of us, and Christ is the Leader.

i have learned alot from reading different forums of this site. As an ethnic i have learned alot from the newly converts of this site and i must say the 40 day fastings they undergo, their faith , they're manners and knowledge of the faith and to life  ARE AN EXAMPLE to all of us.

Although  we ethnics where born with it, a big part of us, dont get Deep into the teaching of the faith. in school we learnt the basics, the history and most if not all of our traditions are related to the  national/church events and that hides the reality; most of us used to go to church mainly only during easter (and maybe a sunday here and there). The Theotokos  name comes up every day in our vocabulry as for example when something happens we shout "Panagia mou!" (means "My Theotokos!"). The positive thing though is that in greece for example the last few years, more and more young people are seen in churches (i can only speak of greece as although a Canada born and a UK resident, i grew up in Greece and i visit 2-3 times a year).  But one thing we know and are taught quite well is HISTORY. And an Orthodox Ethnic's national History is very much related with the history of the Orthodox church.

On the other side the new converts follow the guidelines of their new Orthodox faith, they learn the "theory" quite well. They know why they believe in it, and they become ONE with it, with Christ and with us ethnics.

Well i have a suggestion. Why dont we share this between each other?
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« Reply #115 on: July 08, 2006, 01:11:40 PM »

AlthoughÂÂ  we ethnics where born with it, a big part of us, dont get Deep into the teaching of the faith. in school we learnt the basics, the history and most if not all of our traditions are related to theÂÂ  national/church events and that hides the reality; most of us used to go to church mainly only during easter (and maybe a sunday here and there).

In other words, we take it for granted. Being born into it is just like "Oh, just another religion, but this ones special because I belong to it." Converts tend to be more grateful of the religion, because they have studied and learnt about it more than those born. This is USUALLY the case. I definitly won't say that everyone born into an Orthodox family takes it for granted, although, admitingly, I was one of them. That is why I'm starting to learn about my faith more.
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« Reply #116 on: July 08, 2006, 01:44:13 PM »


Well i have a suggestion. Why dont we share this between each other?

I agree wholeheartedly!

This is why I think God is calling so many to the Orthodox Church nowadays: both the 'converts' and the 'cradles' need each other just as a roof needs pillars. Both pillars can borrow from each other and lend each other support, learning convert zeal and craziness as well as how to successfully integrate Orthodoxy into a coherent life from those born into the Faith.

The reason for the struggles which we are enduring now is because God is priming the pump for the explosion that will occur tomorrow. We are, with the encouragement of the Spirit, recreating the church within our North American mileau so that the Good News can be spread with less impediments than today.

At least, that's my $0.02.
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« Reply #117 on: July 08, 2006, 04:16:20 PM »

In other words, we take it for granted. Being born into it is just like "Oh, just another religion, but this ones special because I belong to it." Converts tend to be more grateful of the religion, because they have studied and learnt about it more than those born. This is USUALLY the case. I definitly won't say that everyone born into an Orthodox family takes it for granted, although, admitingly, I was one of them. That is why I'm starting to learn about my faith more.

I am one of hem too. i was one of the "Anastasis(resurrection) service only" visitors, where as soon as the priest said "Christos anesti" i threw some fireworks, and off to eat "mageiritsa" (traditional soup for easter day in Greece) and then clubbing till the morning..

I was always proud of beeing Orthodox, but only because it has been part of my nationality. But only until resently i discovered the TRUTH, the beauty of ORTHODOXY and Christianity. What a gift of beeing born with it, and know nothing of it.. That why i envy all of the "converts", and i hope they share with us their orthodox faith and devotion to our friend, brother and GOD JESUS CHRIST

a few years ago things happend (miracle but long story) and my life transformed.. My views of the world, of myself, of the great Lord and the church changed. You feel you love eveyone, no matter ethnicity orÂÂ  religion, you see someone sad, or disabled on the street and inside you, you pray the lord to help him give strength. When you believe, you feel always Happy. But u also get to know your weaknesses. Before i use to say "I am a good person and i deserve this because i did that!", now i say "i am unworthy" (which i am).ÂÂ  in difficult moments, you have more strength, confidence. You dont feel sad anymore, as u know that He is there. Of course there have been small moments of doubts, struggle, or anger in day to day issues. But nothing like before things happend. now you know that every problem has a solution, you believe it. And with prayer, help will come!
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« Reply #118 on: July 08, 2006, 09:31:56 PM »

thank you chris, sloga and vas
those past several comments have been among the most enriching I have read here
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« Reply #119 on: July 08, 2006, 09:50:36 PM »

I was always proud of beeing Orthodox, but only because it has been part of my nationality. But only until resently i discovered the TRUTH, the beauty of ORTHODOXY and Christianity. What a gift of beeing born with it, and know nothing of it.. That why i envy all of the "converts", and i hope they share with us their orthodox faith and devotion to our friend, brother and GOD JESUS CHRIST

You read my mind brother.
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« Reply #120 on: July 09, 2006, 08:55:28 AM »

You read my mind brother.

Indeed, well said. I actually am humbled by my being born in the Faith and still having to discover the Pearl of Great Price.
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« Reply #121 on: July 10, 2006, 01:01:26 PM »

I agree with the past couples posts. It's easy to get distracted by all the "church n' state politics" and "parish politics" of who's in charge, what should be done, who's bad, who's a saint. At the same time it's really hard to love your enemy when they really are your enemies--ie. killing raping your own people etc. On the one hand, by keeping our guards up, we can hope to ensure that the enemy is kept at bay...on the other hand if we did truly love our enemies, one wonders if the your own people would be wiped out because of giving this love, and of not receiving it back... although I'm not saying at all that Anatolia and Kosovo were taken by the enemies because of our genuine Orthodox Christian love towards our beautiful turkic neighbours Smiley
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« Reply #122 on: July 10, 2006, 01:02:05 PM »

oh wait...they're not our neighbours- they're invaders from central asia.
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« Reply #123 on: July 10, 2006, 01:10:44 PM »

I agree with the past couples posts. It's easy to get distracted by all the "church n' state politics" and "parish politics" of who's in charge, what should be done, who's bad, who's a saint. At the same time it's really hard to love your enemy when they really are your enemies--ie. killing raping your own people etc. On the one hand, by keeping our guards up, we can hope to ensure that the enemy is kept at bay...on the other hand if we did truly love our enemies, one wonders if the your own people would be wiped out because of giving this love, and of not receiving it back... although I'm not saying at all that Anatolia and Kosovo were taken by the enemies because of our genuine Orthodox Christian love towards our beautiful turkic neighbours Smiley

You know, I look at it this way. Is it better to be the perfect Christians, and allow them to trample all over us and destroy or faith and people, or to atleast put up a fight and pray to God for forgiveness.

Quote
oh wait...they're not our neighbours- they're invaders from central asia.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy, theyve moved into our neighbourhood and it seems theyll be staying here for a while.
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« Reply #124 on: July 10, 2006, 01:11:04 PM »

oh wait...they're not our neighbours- they're invaders from central asia.

So are the Slavs (the Avars were a large part of the Slavic ethnogenesis), the Hungarians, and (to a less violent extent) the Roma. Are you going to claim that they are evil people in need of taming, too?

The sole problem with the Turks is that they have not accepted the Gospel of Christ. Their geographical origin is of no importance whatsoever.
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« Reply #125 on: July 10, 2006, 01:14:00 PM »

So are the Slavs (the Avars were a large part of the Slavic ethnogenesis), the Hungarians, and (to a less violent extent) the Roma. Are you going to claim that they are evil people in need of taming, too?

The sole problem with the Turks is that they have not accepted the Gospel of Christ. Their geographical origin is of no importance whatsoever.

au contrare, recent genetic studies show there is a significant mutation between the genes of the Slavs and Turks, quite a strangely large amount considering the two are from similar areas. (Slavs north of caucasus, Turks east). Not that I really care, Serbs are one of the most un-slavicized countries in the world.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #126 on: July 10, 2006, 01:44:33 PM »

au contrare, recent genetic studies show there is a significant mutation between the genes of the Slavs and Turks, quite a strangely large amount considering the two are from similar areas. (Slavs north of caucasus, Turks east). Not that I really care, Serbs are one of the most un-slavicized countries in the world.  Roll Eyes

Genetics has little to do with ethnicity. And any book on the ethnogenesis of the Slavs, such as Alexander Schenker's excellent The Dawn of Slavic (Yale University Press, 1996) will talk about the importance of the Avars.
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« Reply #127 on: July 10, 2006, 02:10:47 PM »

oh wait...they're not our neighbours- they're invaders from central asia.

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?"

Luke 10: 25-29 right before the parable of the Good Samaritan.

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« Reply #128 on: July 10, 2006, 02:12:54 PM »

au contrare, recent genetic studies ..

Do you have links or sources for this "study" please?

Are you a biologist? What do you mean by "significant mutation"? 

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« Reply #129 on: July 12, 2006, 02:05:46 AM »

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?"

Luke 10: 25-29 right before the parable of the Good Samaritan.

Ebor

Whatever. Honestly, get thrown out of your house, starved, beaten,raped,and killed: you and your children and your grandchildren by your neigbhours and then come tell me how you think they'd feel.

As
The sole problem with the Turks is that they have not accepted the Gospel of Christ. Their geographical origin is of no importance whatsoever.

I disagree. If in 1453, these people were invaders from Russia or Ukraine, there'd at least be a  great chance of them being Orthodox (which nonetheless would ruin russian-greek church and political ties), but still Asia Minor would still be orthodox (Christian) , so yes, geographical origin is important. For the turks to recieve the gospel is not impossible- it's just harder seeing that they've made every effort to get rid of any traces of it in "their" area.
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« Reply #130 on: July 14, 2006, 12:48:52 AM »

Never mind... ( I edited, then deleted my post)

I think anything posted on this topic will just upset some people; a clear divide has been evident, so perhaps it is  best to let this topic rest.


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« Reply #131 on: July 14, 2006, 09:25:09 AM »



According to a Byzantine Catholic priest (Fr Sopoliga) in one of his lectures given on EWTN....Hagia Sophia was the greatest Byzantine Catholic Church ever built!  I'm sure all you Greeks will be amazed to learn that this church you hold so dear was really a Uniate Church!

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« Reply #132 on: July 14, 2006, 10:01:49 AM »

Actually, to me, 'Byzantine Catholic' and 'Greek Catholic' are terms that WE should own anyway!
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« Reply #133 on: July 14, 2006, 10:29:25 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg127851#msg127851 date=1152885709]
Actually, to me, 'Byzantine Catholic' and 'Greek Catholic' are terms that WE should own anyway!
[/quote]

I agree.ÂÂ  But one must look at the context in which the claim is being made. In this case he was speaking as representative of a sui juris Uniate church that identifies itself at the present time as 'Byzantine Catholic'.ÂÂ  In doing so he was misrepresenting the history of the greatest church in all Christainity for over a century as belonging to and being part of the Unia rather than Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #134 on: July 16, 2006, 01:12:27 AM »

What? He did that? That is just plain crazy. How can the RCC say the Pope has never erred on matters of faith or morals then?
This is not something that I knew before. How crazy is that?
This does not fall under the apology given by John Paul since he did not include apologizing for this. How could he apologize for it even if he wanted to due to the way the Pope is understood by Catholics???
What a mess. For me that is. This completely makes a mockery of the faith and morals claim.
Oh well, I am clearly in need of some prayer over this and I will bug off to do so.
Have a great evening everyone! I have really been learning a lot here.
I just wish I had known this stuff before.

Sorry to be so late on this but I just unpacked most of my library this evening. Dismus, you may want to read The Fourth Crusade -The Conquest of Constantinople, second edition, by Donald E Queller and Thomas F. Madden, University of Pennsylvania Press, 1997; ISBN 0-8122-1713-6.
It IS a heavy, sad read.
And, yes, JPII probably specifically had this foremost in mind with his apology.
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« Reply #135 on: July 16, 2006, 09:53:51 AM »

(If anyone wants to read a thorough description of JPII and why he furthered Orthodoxy from Catholicism, I suggest this read http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/063.shtml - Orthodox-Catholic Reconciliation by Carl Savich)
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« Reply #136 on: July 17, 2006, 12:43:07 PM »

If I remember correctly, some of the sources seem to imply that at different times - even in the last days before the city was sacked - Latins were permitted to use the Great Church to do Liturgy, seeing as a "reunion" was being pushed for military reasons.
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« Reply #137 on: July 17, 2006, 08:49:22 PM »

If I remember correctly, some of the sources seem to imply that at different times - even in the last days before the city was sacked - Latins were permitted to use the Great Church to do Liturgy, seeing as a "reunion" was being pushed for military reasons.

Basicaaly in the a few years before the Fall of the City, Emperor Ioannis Palaiologos (Konstantine's oldest brother) along with Patriarch Joseh and other priests, travelled to Ferara (Italy) to sign a deal with the Pope in order to get help from the West. They knew they will be asked to give up alot for the miltary "help". Everyone signed except the Patriarch who died just before the "deal" and Evgenios Scholarios who argued with the "head" of the unionist Orthodox priests Vissarion episkope of Nikea. One part of the deal was the Latin priest and the orthodox priest will have to conduct the service together at Agia Sofia as a proof of the "union".

i think though that the very last service (which was never completed as turks stormed in to Agia Sofia and started slaughtering everyone) was only by Orthodox.
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« Reply #138 on: July 17, 2006, 09:40:28 PM »

How odd in the light of the fact that "Florence" was still in effect from, what, 1439, 1441?

That 'union' from the Council of Florence may have been rejected by most in the east, but was it rejected officially by the Church? No, I don't think so until 1454-59(?) - well into the sultan's reign at any rate.

Any help on dates would be appreciated - I'm usually more accurate and/or sure of dates and other facts.
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« Reply #139 on: July 18, 2006, 06:34:13 AM »

The so called "union" talks started at Ferara at 1438 and ended in florence in 1439.

When Constantinople fell, Mehmed allowed the appointment of a Patriarch and Grigorios Scholarios was (he had signed the "Florence" deal as well, but later became its biggest enemy as a anti-"Unionist") the next Patriarch.

the "union" would never be in effect again and in 1484 the Patriarchic synod officially condemned it
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« Reply #140 on: July 18, 2006, 08:44:38 PM »

It's been awhile since I've read the relevant histories of the time around the fall, but I don't think the Ferrara-Florence reunion was the one being touted exactly; IIRC there was another series of talks when the Turks were beginning the final push to the city that attempted to revive the then-defunct/dead "reunion" that had been rejected almost immediately by the people.  I mean, "reunion" talks were being done off and on for years before and even soon after the fall.
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« Reply #141 on: August 01, 2006, 12:36:32 PM »

It's been awhile since I've read the relevant histories of the time around the fall, but I don't think the Ferrara-Florence reunion was the one being touted exactly; IIRC there was another series of talks when the Turks were beginning the final push to the city that attempted to revive the then-defunct/dead "reunion" that had been rejected almost immediately by the people.  I mean, "reunion" talks were being done off and on for years before and even soon after the fall.

I'm afraid, I have to disagree with you, on the contrary...the 'pseudo-synod' of Ferrara-Florence, was rejected almost immediately by the people and no serious attempt to revive the union took place...in fact,   when Loucas Notaras, the Empire's Grand Logothet (or Grand Duke, I can't recall, anyway, an office equivalent to modern Prime Minister) said the famous phrase:
'Κρειττότερον ἐστίν εἰδέναι ἐν μέση Ï„á¿â€  ÃƒÆ’â‚¬ÃÅ’λει φακιόλιον βασιλεύον Τούρκων ἤ καλύπτραν Λατινικήν'-'I would rather see a Muslim turban in the midst of the City, than the Latin miter', he expressed the overwhelming will of the majority of the people
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« Reply #142 on: August 01, 2006, 03:57:36 PM »

Apostolos,

You and I didn't disagree on the pertinent points: the people rejected Ferrara-Florence almost immediately (we both stated), and that the will of the people was against the "reunion."

 But there were, to my recollection, negotiations between the Emperors and the Popes in the latter years to revive the reunion in order to secure military assistance from the West to defend Constantinople.  There was even a point near when the city fell that reunion may have even been declared openly; it was a dead letter, as the people would not accept it, but nonetheless on the political side it was being discussed off and on even after the outright rejection of Florence.
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« Reply #143 on: August 02, 2006, 12:09:18 PM »

Apostolos,

You and I didn't disagree on the pertinent points: the people rejected Ferrara-Florence almost immediately (we both stated), and that the will of the people was against the "reunion."

 But there were, to my recollection, negotiations between the Emperors and the Popes in the latter years to revive the reunion in order to secure military assistance from the West to defend Constantinople.  There was even a point near when the city fell that reunion may have even been declared openly; it was a dead letter, as the people would not accept it, but nonetheless on the political side it was being discussed off and on even after the outright rejection of Florence.

Oh, I see, sorry, I misunderstood, we're basically saying the same thing.
Btw, I'm sure you know that the last uniate liturgy, a few hours before the Turks storm the city, took place at Hagia Sophia, where the Emperor recited the Creed with the Filioque (one of the reasons why he is not glorified a Saint by the Church), before the Latin cardinal.
On the other hand, the Orthodox, gathered at the small chapel of St.George. And now, Hagia Sophia is a museum and St.George is the Patriarchal Cathedral...He sure works in mysterious ways  Wink   
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« Reply #144 on: August 02, 2006, 01:16:07 PM »

[quote author=Ἀπόστολος link=topic=9421.msg130097#msg130097 date=1154534958]

On the other hand, the Orthodox, gathered at the small chapel of St.George. And now, Hagia Sophia is a museum and St.George is the Patriarchal Cathedral... ÂÂ
[/quote]

Very interesting!

Apostolos, your contributions are always very informative! I think I have found another person whose posts I will always try to read here at OC.net!  Smiley
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« Reply #145 on: August 09, 2006, 02:59:21 AM »

I am really at a loss about this one. How is it that so many Roman Catholics seem to "forget" the horror story of what happend to Hagia Sophia.

I presume we a talking about the sack of Constantinople by the Crusaders in 1204.

Generally speaking, RCs are not strong on Byzantine history. Partly this is because ignorance of such history is pretty general in the West. This is because it has, until recently, been seen as tedius and irrelevent.

As John Meyendorff  puts it (in the introduction to Imperial Unity (1989) )
"...if one applies to Byzantium and the Christian East the cultural criteria which prevailed in the West during the Enlightenment, one is indeed  almost unavoidably led to Gibbon's assessment that the history of Chrstian Byzantium is not much more than "a tedius and uniform tale of weakness and misery." If, however, one takes a more critical view of the secular society and culture which resulted from the Enlightenment; if one has doubts as to whether Western Christianity has always used the right philosophy and the right values to preserve the Christian Gospel; one can very well find it legitimate to look back into history for alternative possibilities and lost opportunities, especially to the world of Byzantium, as the other facet of the Greco-Roman legacy."

Furthermore with the astonishing restoration of Russia's fortunes, and her apparent refusal to submit to some key modern Western values, there are grounds for suspecting that Byzantine history is taking on a new relevence. For it lent shape to Russia.

But another reason why RCs are weak on Byzantine history, is because Rome has never been that fond of Constantinople; they  have been uneasy sisters from the word go. Some historians suggest that one reason Constantine moved the imperial capital to Byzantium, in the first place, was out of pique at the Roman Senate's support for his rival Maxentius.

But the main reason I think for the amnesia is an almost unconscious one; Rome's claim to authority is predicated on Apostolic legitimacy, but she has patently departed so much from apostolic tradition in comparison to to the East, that from her point of view, the less said about Orthodoxy, the better. The Vatican's reluctance to support the Entente during WW1 has been ascribed to the following perspective: "It also sought to prop up the Ottoman Empire so as to prevent Russia achieving an Orthodox St Peter's at Aghia Sophia on the Bosphorus.

Why would she mind an Orthodox St Peter's at Aghia Sophia? The competitive PR I suspect.

Rome's capacity for drawing a veil over things is not to be despised. Take that fulcrum of the Second Vatican  Council, and discoverer of the missing link,  Pierre  Teilhard de Chardin for example. As Fr Seraphim Rose wrote (p355 Genesis Creation and Early Man)  "...[He] was a French Jesuit priest, 'theologian' and paleontoligist, who was present at the discovery of many of the great fossil 'men'  of our century. He took part with two other people un the 'discovery' of the fraudulent Piltdown man [in 1953 it was discovered that the skull of the Piltdown Man skillfully combined the jaw of an ape with the skull of a modern man]. He discovered the tooth, which was dyed. It is not known whether he had a part in it. One of the other men has been accused being the one who fabricated the Piltdown Man; and it has been hushed up that Teilhard de Chardin had anything to do with it. But it is already known from earlier books that he discovered the tooth."

The evidence is not conclusive that he was culpably involved in perpetrating the greatest known fraud in the history of science, but evolutionist Louis Leakey has concluded that he probably was.

I don't think I am writing this with animus; I don't mean to attend to the mote in my brother's eye while ignoring the beam in my own. But we are commanded to be as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves.

Which brings me to the history of Jasenovac and for RC complicity for the attrocities against the Serbs in the 1940s. It is hard to avoid cognative dissonance because it is so monstrous. It is extremely difficult to conceive the mentality of the perpetrators, particularly the ordained ones. But what is even more striking is that so few people know about it. The Vatican does not deny it, because the issue is never raised.



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« Reply #146 on: August 09, 2006, 07:40:03 PM »

I presume we a talking about the sack of Constantinople by the Crusaders in 1204.

Generally speaking, RCs are not strong on Byzantine history. Partly this is because ignorance of such history is pretty general in the West. This is because it has, until recently, been seen as tedius and irrelevent.

As John MeyendorffÂÂ  puts it (in the introduction to Imperial Unity (1989) )
"...if one applies to Byzantium and the Christian East the cultural criteria which prevailed in the West during the Enlightenment, one is indeedÂÂ  almost unavoidably led to Gibbon's assessment that the history of Chrstian Byzantium is not much more than "a tedius and uniform tale of weakness and misery." If, however, one takes a more critical view of the secular society and culture which resulted from the Enlightenment; if one has doubts as to whether Western Christianity has always used the right philosophy and the right values to preserve the Christian Gospel; one can very well find it legitimate to look back into history for alternative possibilities and lost opportunities, especially to the world of Byzantium, as the other facet of the Greco-Roman legacy."

Furthermore with the astonishing restoration of Russia's fortunes, and her apparent refusal to submit to some key modern Western values, there are grounds for suspecting that Byzantine history is taking on a new relevence. For it lent shape to Russia.

But another reason why RCs are weak on Byzantine history, is because Rome has never been that fond of Constantinople; theyÂÂ  have been uneasy sisters from the word go. Some historians suggest that one reason Constantine moved the imperial capital to Byzantium, in the first place, was out of pique at the Roman Senate's support for his rival Maxentius.

But the main reason I think for the amnesia is an almost unconscious one; Rome's claim to authority is predicated on Apostolic legitimacy, but she has patently departed so much from apostolic tradition in comparison to to the East, that from her point of view, the less said about Orthodoxy, the better. The Vatican's reluctance to support the Entente during WW1 has been ascribed to the following perspective: "It also sought to prop up the Ottoman Empire so as to prevent Russia achieving an Orthodox St Peter's at Aghia Sophia on the Bosphorus.

Why would she mind an Orthodox St Peter's at Aghia Sophia? The competitive PR I suspect.

Rome's capacity for drawing a veil over things is not to be despised. Take that fulcrum of the Second VaticanÂÂ  Council, and discoverer of the missing link,ÂÂ  PierreÂÂ  Teilhard de Chardin for example. As Fr Seraphim Rose wrote (p355 Genesis Creation and Early Man)ÂÂ  "...[He] was a French Jesuit priest, 'theologian' and paleontoligist, who was present at the discovery of many of the great fossil 'men'ÂÂ  of our century. He took part with two other people un the 'discovery' of the fraudulent Piltdown man [in 1953 it was discovered that the skull of the Piltdown Man skillfully combined the jaw of an ape with the skull of a modern man]. He discovered the tooth, which was dyed. It is not known whether he had a part in it. One of the other men has been accused being the one who fabricated the Piltdown Man; and it has been hushed up that Teilhard de Chardin had anything to do with it. But it is already known from earlier books that he discovered the tooth."

The evidence is not conclusive that he was culpably involved in perpetrating the greatest known fraud in the history of science, but evolutionist Louis Leakey has concluded that he probably was.

I don't think I am writing this with animus; I don't mean to attend to the mote in my brother's eye while ignoring the beam in my own. But we are commanded to be as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves.

Which brings me to the history of Jasenovac and for RC complicity for the attrocities against the Serbs in the 1940s. It is hard to avoid cognative dissonance because it is so monstrous. It is extremely difficult to conceive the mentality of the perpetrators, particularly the ordained ones. But what is even more striking is that so few people know about it. The Vatican does not deny it, because the issue is never raised.






Thank you for your non-emotional objective and honesty in trying to answer my question without considering it to be offensive to ask, and without attacking me or questioning my motives to asking.
God Bless You
Man, How many posts never addressed my Q.Huh
Thanks man.
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« Reply #147 on: August 10, 2006, 09:28:29 AM »


Man, How many posts never addressed my Q.Huh
Thanks man.

I hope you were not thinking that only direct answers to your original question were permitted...

The advantage of OC.net is the education received just in posing a question. Like an encyclopedia, not only can someone learn about what they were originally asking about, but someone can also learn many more things as the Lord may so will.
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« Reply #148 on: August 17, 2006, 02:21:39 PM »

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued peace Dismus,

It appears to me many Roman Catholics in America, like yourself, suffer a great deal of personal shame from the constant criticisms fausted upon our venerable Tradition; some derived from Western Protestant attacks and still others from our Eastern Brothers and Sisters; some legitimate, some illegitimate and some complete distortions of the truth.

With regards to many of these historic matters we are left to determine what records will ultimately serve to inform us as to what really happened and then we still may have a very limited and biased framework which further serves to distort any clarity which may be had on the matter.

As an obedient son of the Western Church I stand with our Holy Father in looking into the clouded lens of history and lamenting over the errors of judgment not only of Rome but of the whole of Western Culture. Truly the vessal of grace which I believe the Roman Catholic Church to have been and continues to be has not always navagated it's course with the virtue of the Holy Spirit at the helm. Truly sinful men has played their role in undermining the faith of the Body of Christ in the world, particularly in an institution as visiable as the Roman Catholic Church.

I am not one for conspiracies. Ultimately I question the need to denegrate others in order to raise oneself in the eyes of others. Truly we must be an example of whatever virtue God has graced for us and no manner of distractions as to the fault of others will serve to hide our own fruitlessness forever. America is ultimately a champion of victimhood and such tactics have served causes great and small, neferious and virtueous. I question the need for any Roman Catholics to play that card either.

Again as I've said before, as an obedient son of the Catholic Church I stand with our Holy Father in looking into the clouded lens of history and lament our sin. Amen.

Sancte Francisce, Patriarcha pauperum, ora pro nobis.
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« Reply #149 on: August 17, 2006, 03:08:57 PM »

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued peace Dismus,

It appears to me many Roman Catholics in America, like yourself, suffer a great deal of personal shame


No personal shame here as I was not born then and had I been I would not have been
Catholic most likely, but even if I were, I could hardly feel shame personal or otherwise but maybe I would feel like the Holy Spirit really was not guiding the Church at all times, and that since it asserted as much for soooo long that I say it is merely a sign that the Church has lied to us, then changes the story later to sound good and then Benedict says it would be an error to think that the Holy Spirit was at the helm at all times. Confusing at best. Alienating at worst.


from the constant criticisms fausted upon our venerable Tradition;

I never was confronted with this by anyone. I started reading about it and therefore I wanted both sides of the story now that the Catholic Church allows layity to read any books they wish.

some derived from Western Protestant attacks and still others from our Eastern Brothers and Sisters; some legitimate, some illegitimate and some complete distortions of the truth.

I am still seeking the "truth" if you will, so this is not convincing me that truth can be found by "our" side alone.


With regards to many of these historic matters we are left to determine what records will ultimately serve to inform us as to what really happened and then we still may have a very limited and biased framework which further serves to distort any clarity which may be had on the matter.

Agreed. Where are these records and who's records are we talking about here?


As an obedient son of the Western Church I stand with our Holy Father in looking into the clouded lens of history and lamenting over the errors of judgment not only of Rome but of the whole of Western Culture. Truly the vessal of grace which I believe the Roman Catholic Church to have been and continues to be has not always navagated it's course with the virtue of the Holy Spirit at the helm. Truly sinful men has played their role in undermining the faith of the Body of Christ in the world, particularly in an institution as visiable as the Roman Catholic Church.

I am told I only need to heed the Pope on faith and Morals. So, this is not applicable to me.


I am not one for conspiracies.

Not even the Kennedy ones? You are no fun.

Ultimately I question the need to denegrate others

Like who? the murderers?

in order to raise oneself in the eyes of others.

Well I never do that anyway and my problem is I really don't think to enough. I am opinionated and that is not a way to win friends and influence people I am afraid.

Truly we must be an example of whatever virtue God has graced for us and no manner of distractions as to the fault of others will serve to hide our own fruitlessness forever. America is ultimately a champion of victimhood and such tactics have served causes great and small, neferious and virtueous. I question the need for any Roman Catholics to play that card either.

Ohh boy the blame America thing again. My favorite one.

Again as I've said before, as an obedient son of the Catholic Church I stand with our Holy Father in looking into the clouded lens of history and lament our sin. Amen.

I think cleaning the lense would be a good start., but I'm Just speculating here.....
Sancte Francisce, Patriarcha pauperum, ora pro nobis.


Thanks and Peace to you
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« Reply #150 on: August 17, 2006, 03:40:33 PM »

Quote
No personal shame here as I was not born then and had I been I would not have been Catholic most likely, but even if I were, I could hardly feel shame personal or otherwise but maybe I would feel like the Holy Spirit really was not guiding the Church at all times, and that since it asserted as much for soooo long that I say it is merely a sign that the Church has lied to us, then changes the story later to sound good and then Benedict says it would be an error to think that the Holy Spirit was at the helm at all times. Confusing at best. Alienating at worst.

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued peace Dismus,

I'm curious to inquire if you believe that the Pope of Rome was actually involved in the blot of the Franks and Venetians to Sack Santa Sophia? That appears to be what you are suggesting. Is it?

If you truly believe that all sources are equal with regards to their validity then I would agree that one could inspect all historic records to gather an objective view of the event but knowing such is not the case I would have to suggest that one's own inherent bias would be in operation in picking and choosing which records fit one's preconceived expectations of the events. Knowing that we live in a predominately Protestant society we are going to have some biases at play regardless how objective we may think we are concerning the manner. Do you really think that you don't?

Where you a convert to Catholicism? How long ago? What has transpired which has left you in such doubt as to Catholicism being of spiritual value to man?

Just curious.
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« Reply #151 on: August 17, 2006, 03:55:45 PM »

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued peace Dismus,

I'm curious to inquire if you believe that the Pope of Rome was actually involved in the blot of the Franks and Venetians to Sack Santa Sophia? That appears to be what you are suggesting. Is it?

I don't have a clue! Was it errant Jesuit militants?? Was it Holy Father??? Was it both? Or niether- Huh I have no clue. But, I do know Holy Father could have stopped the nightmare if he had chosen- no? Or was he impotent of Power?


If you truly believe that all sources are equal with regards to their validity then I would agree that one could inspect all historic records to gather an objective view of the event but knowing such is not the case I would have to suggest that one's own inherent bias would be in operation in picking and choosing which records fit one's preconceived expectations of the events. Knowing that we live in a predominately Protestant society we are going to have some biases at play regardless how objective we may think we are concerning the manner. Do you really think that you don't?

I don't know what you mean by bias... please elaborate., why would I start a thread and never do more than ask questions about it and you find in that somehow that I have a certain mindset on this matter? You are jumping to conclusions and sound to me like you are a Priest- and a Priest that does not like America or Americans. So I take it with a grain of salt.


Where you a convert to Catholicism? How long ago? What has transpired which has left you in such doubt as to Catholicism being of spiritual value to man?


Yes- I am a Convert but that is another topic- go back to the post where you suggested that my Jesuit priest was not the norm giving me the run around on seeking Orthodoxy.
You have yet to respond to the last comment I made and I welcome your reply and rebuking as well. Personally your posts make me want to go to confession right away since I am getting the feeling that you are a Priest and I think it is a sin to get mad at a Priest.
Just curious.

Sorry, but I am not happy with the pot shot - I NEVER said that Catholicism was doubtful of value to man OR animals, or anything!
You have slandered my not so good reputation.
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« Reply #152 on: August 17, 2006, 04:33:49 PM »

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued peace Dismus,

I would not offer you continued peace if I did not desire with all my heart that you, of all God's Creatures, should have it. You have the liberty to express yourself on this forum in the fashion that you desire. If you conduct yourself always and everywhere as a Child of God you should be at peace with your conduct toward me or anyone else.

Quote
I don't have a clue! Was it errant Jesuit militants?? Was it Holy Father??? Was it both? Or niether-  I have no clue. But, I do know Holy Father could have stopped the nightmare if he had chosen- no? Or was he impotent of Power?

When you speak of the Holy Father the Pope you must recognize that he is a man just like any other Bishop except for the Charism of His Office which does not afford him omnipotence. He could not have stopped the blot of the Franks or the Venetians if it was not within his power to know. In that sense, concerning that event he would have been impotent there is no doubt in my mind.

Quote
I don't know what you mean by bias... please elaborate., why would I start a thread and never do more than ask questions about it and you find in that somehow that I have a certain mindset on this matter? You are jumping to conclusions and sound to me like you are a Priest- and a Priest that does not like America or Americans. So I take it with a grain of salt.

As creatures of our environment we are creatures of bias. A bias is a predisposition about certain things which are taught to us via our participation in a particular culture or ethnicity. Growing up Protestant would create a certain amount of bias toward the Papacy for instance. Such a bias would distort certain facts that one might encounter because such might contradict what one believes to be inherently true. Our biases act are 'lens' which we then seen reality. Such a view of reality would thus be subjective and not objective.

I have no more criticism of America than I have of any other Western Society. Secularism has not been good for Christendom.

Quote
Yes- I am a Convert but that is another topic- go back to the post where you suggested that my Jesuit priest was not the norm giving me the run around on seeking Orthodoxy.

Actually it may well be the most important point as to your state at the moment. If you have not be properly Catechized then this would explain the level of confusion you now have on a great many of these issues. Of course I find you on an Orthodox Forum so out of respect for the house of my brothers and sisters I will restrain myself from attempting to address this issue but I do believe you have not had a proper Catechesis in the Faith and that is a shame.

Quote
You have yet to respond to the last comment I made and I welcome your reply and rebuking as well. Personally your posts make me want to go to confession right away since I am getting the feeling that you are a Priest and I think it is a sin to get mad at a Priest

Please forgive me dear but I have not responded because I have failed to follow up on your question. Could you be so kind as to point me to what I have overlooked?

With regards to getting mad at a Priest. It is not a sin to get mad at a Priest. In fact, in certain circumstances it may very well be a sin 'not' to get mad at a Priest. So please be not concerned over this matter.

It is my hope that we can dialogue some more on this and other matters because I find you to be a very thoughtful and curious child and that my dear is a very very good thing.

Sancte Francisce, Patriarcha pauperum, ora pro nobis.
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« Reply #153 on: August 17, 2006, 04:50:03 PM »

Truce!

I think I am seeing your viewpoint a bit better. I think my real bias effecting our dialouge has been that some Priests have given me false information knowing me as a new convert and they have taken me for a "ride" so to speak. I keep finding out how they have put their own personal spin and interpretations on things that are not in line with the Church teachings on certain matters, so maybe I am super sckeptical of Priests and that does make me feel as if I am sinning I don't care what the rules say about whether it really is or not since it hurts me to feel this way.
I turn to them for guidance and I get further away from the Church due to their stubborn ways of defiance to the Church. I have committed Mortal Sin as a result of bad advice. Thank God for confession.

Again, thanks for your help and your insight.

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« Reply #154 on: August 20, 2006, 10:15:44 AM »

I am not one for conspiracies. Ultimately I question the need to denegrate others in order to raise oneself in the eyes of others. Truly we must be an example of whatever virtue God has graced for us and no manner of distractions as to the fault of others will serve to hide our own fruitlessness forever. America is ultimately a champion of victimhood and such tactics have served causes great and small, neferious and virtueous. I question the need for any Roman Catholics to play that card either.

Thank you for confirming my cardinal point: Rome's capacity for drawing a veil over things is not to be despised.
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« Reply #155 on: August 20, 2006, 04:26:04 PM »

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued peace Dismus,

I'm curious to inquire if you believe that the Pope of Rome was actually involved in the blot of the Franks and Venetians to Sack Santa Sophia? That appears to be what you are suggesting. Is it?

If you truly believe that all sources are equal with regards to their validity then I would agree that one could inspect all historic records to gather an objective view of the event but knowing such is not the case I would have to suggest that one's own inherent bias would be in operation in picking and choosing which records fit one's preconceived expectations of the events. Knowing that we live in a predominately Protestant society we are going to have some biases at play regardless how objective we may think we are concerning the manner. Do you really think that you don't?


Perhaps not complicit in the pre-sack period, but Pope Innocent III can hardly be said to be "innocent". Having already excommunicated these marauding thugs for sacking a Roman Catholic city prior to arrival at Constantinople, the pope accepted the taking of the city as a fact accomplished, restoring most of the crusaders to the RCC after the setup of the Latin Patriarchate (1204-1261)- a sad method begun in the crusader era throughout the east and apparently still existent today (Ukraine, but we'll see). To deny the very facts of history you tout is to cheapen the apology of Pope John Paul II and relegate it to a simple nicety of diplomatic protocol.
It is hardly a wonder that most RCs haven't a clue.
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« Reply #156 on: August 21, 2006, 06:07:58 PM »

Thank you for confirming my cardinal point: Rome's capacity for drawing a veil over things is not to be despised.

In nomine Ieus I offer you peace hedley,

Well, you are entitled to hold that opinion. You'll have not argument with me but I would say that within men, all men is this capacity. Rome has no more corner on that market than your own Bishops.

If you identity demands that Rome be demonized then truly in your eyes she must be proved a demon. For me, there are simply too many treasures that I have encountered within her fold to confirm your point of view. That of course is my opinion and I am willing to accept that it is such without the need to assert as some kind of divine truth.

Sancte Francisce, Patriarcha pauperum, ora pro nobis.
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« Reply #157 on: August 21, 2006, 06:16:07 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg132416#msg132416 date=1156105564]
Perhaps not complicit in the pre-sack period, but Pope Innocent III can hardly be said to be "innocent". Having already excommunicated these marauding thugs for sacking a Roman Catholic city prior to arrival at Constantinople, the pope accepted the taking of the city as a fact accomplished, restoring most of the crusaders to the RCC after the setup of the Latin Patriarchate (1204-1261)- a sad method begun in the crusader era throughout the east and apparently still existent today (Ukraine, but we'll see). To deny the very facts of history you tout is to cheapen the apology of Pope John Paul II and relegate it to a simple nicety of diplomatic protocol.
It is hardly a wonder that most RCs haven't a clue.[/quote]

In nomine Ieus I offer you peace Αριστοκλής,

Determining the motive for Pope Innocent III's excommunication of these thugs and the later lifting of the excommunication is not something I would wish to speculate on. From what limited knowledge I hold on the subject and assuming that it is not distorted by bias or emotion I believed Pope Innocent III's reaction upon hearing of the news of the Sack of Constantinople excepts him from compliance with either the Franks or the Venetians but as I've stated from my earlier posts, as an obedient son of the Catholic Church I stand with our Holy Father in looking into the clouded lens of history and lament our sin.

Sancte Francisce, Patriarcha pauperum, ora pro nobis.
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« Reply #158 on: August 22, 2006, 08:45:08 AM »

And as I have stated elsewhere here, I respect the Pope's apology. However, dismissive debate and equivocations by some Latins cheapen his effort.
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« Reply #159 on: August 22, 2006, 09:17:26 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg132575#msg132575 date=1156250708]
And as I have stated elsewhere here, I respect the Pope's apology. However, dismissive debate and equivocations by some Latins cheapen his effort.[/quote]

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued peace Αριστοκλής,

If you seek to label my efforts to discuss these historical events as dismissive and equivocations then I humbly disagree with you. If you are labeling someone else then I'll just have to take your work for your characterizations being valid because I have not seen nor read them. There is one thing in suggesting what all the evidence points to and another that such conjecture is the only conclusion. My concern with the EO's criticism is that such sins are not repent-able and thus stains the Vatican permanently as well as failure to taking on any blame for the schism which stared so much earlier than this event.

Sancte Francisce, Patriarcha pauperum, ora pro nobis.
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« Reply #160 on: August 22, 2006, 01:25:30 PM »

And I disagree. Denial is an untruth.
As to the fault for the schism, I did not address that.

Perhaps you should do a search here and read up on the 1204 topic, first.
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« Reply #161 on: August 22, 2006, 02:45:17 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg132595#msg132595 date=1156267530]
And I disagree. Denial is an untruth.[/quote]

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued peace Αριστοκλής,

I do believe that you assume too much to suggest that you know my intention to infer that I am a liar here but as I've said before to others you are entitled to your opinion.

Quote
As to the fault for the schism, I did not address that.

neither did I.

Quote
Perhaps you should do a search here and read up on the 1204 topic, first.

If all I'm going to read is finger pointing then I'm not sure it's going to be constructive... most here appear to be pretty confident in having a very objective take on the events.

Sancte Francisce, Patriarcha pauperum, ora pro nobis.
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« Reply #162 on: August 22, 2006, 03:04:53 PM »

Whoa ther, pal. I did not call you a liar. If you feel that I did, you are mistaken.

And if you do not want to read what has been stated here in the past, there's no point in discussing anything further.

Tis no wonder "so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia"
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« Reply #163 on: August 22, 2006, 03:19:47 PM »

May God forgive me for starting this thread. :'(

I wish I had less questions running through my mind.

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« Reply #164 on: August 22, 2006, 04:36:39 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg132611#msg132611 date=1156273493]
Whoa ther, pal. I did not call you a liar. If you feel that I did, you are mistaken.[/quote]

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued peace Αριστοκλής,

Well, I was certainly not sure how to interpret your assertion that I was in 'untruth'?  Huh

Quote
And if you do not want to read what has been stated here in the past, there's no point in discussing anything further.

Please note that I didn't enter into this thread to debate the error of Hagia Sophia so ultimately my intention wasn't to discuss it only to offer my stance with the Holy Father's lament of it.

Quote
Tis no wonder "so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia"

Well, you must understand we Roman Catholics don't look at Hagia Sophia as a particular identity building event as the EO see it. I can appreciate the impact it had in the Eastern World but the distance between the East and the West, at that time, meant that few knew of the event.

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« Reply #165 on: August 23, 2006, 03:49:05 PM »

Rome has no more corner on that market than your own Bishops.

Good point.

http://ochlophobist.blogspot.com/2006/06/berfromm-snuggling-up-to-gates-of-hell.html

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« Reply #166 on: August 23, 2006, 04:01:13 PM »

I
Well, you must understand we Roman Catholics don't look at Hagia Sophia as a particular identity building event as the EO see it. I can appreciate the impact it had in the Eastern World but the distance between the East and the West, at that time, meant that few knew of the event.


Possibly true to an extent in so far as there wasn't much to the west at Justinian's time due to invasions and the not then too distant fall of Rome. The west was STILL dealing with the Donatists which Justinian finally resolved for old Rome and the pope. Those were different times in the unschismed Church.
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« Reply #167 on: August 24, 2006, 03:46:24 AM »

If you identity demands that Rome be demonized then truly in your eyes she must be proved a demon.

To characterize criticism as demonization, rather than rebut it is simply a ploy to supresso veri.
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« Reply #168 on: August 24, 2006, 01:28:20 PM »

as an obedient son of the Catholic Church I stand with our Holy Father in looking into the clouded lens of history and lament our sin.

Sancte Francisce, Patriarcha pauperum, ora pro nobis.
Actually, it is NOT our sin. Neither I nor you were alive when the sack of constantinople occured. Therefore, neither you nor I are guilty of sacking constantinople.
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« Reply #169 on: August 24, 2006, 01:30:36 PM »

Hello. I just wanted to point out something that I find very interesting when discussing events like the sacking of Constantinople. I see a great deal of the use of the words "us", "we", "you", "our", and "your". Now this is intersting not only because the words are used but, more so, because of the manner in which these words are used. For example I see people saying, "I am sorry WE sacked YOUR city." Now, please correct me if I am wrong but I do not believe any Catholic alive today has ever sacked constantinople. Yet, Catholics often use the word WE when discussing the sacking of Constantinople as if we were alive during the sacking of Constantinople and actually participated in its injustices. This concerns me because I see Eastern Orthodox Christians saying "YOU sacked OUR city of Constantinople." Now wait. Are there any Eastern Orthodox Christians alive today who lived in Constantinople when it was sacked? I don't think so. Wink So how can they claim that injustices were commited against them, if they were not even alive at the time the injustices were commited? The sacking of constantinople was perpatrated by people who are no longer alive against people who are not alive today in a City that is no longer Constantinople. So maybe since none of us were involved, we should stop apoligizing to each other and stop accusing each other and get over it. Just a thought. I could be wrong. Its happened before. Grin
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« Reply #170 on: August 24, 2006, 01:41:34 PM »

Actually, it is NOT our sin. Neither I nor you were alive when the sack of constantinople occured. Therefore, neither you nor I are guilty of sacking constantinople.

But your Church is. and so are the general population of Venice.
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« Reply #171 on: August 24, 2006, 01:42:47 PM »

Hello. I just wanted to point out something that I find very interesting when discussing events like the sacking of Constantinople. I see a great deal of the use of the words "us", "we", "you", "our", and "your". Now this is intersting not only because the words are used but, more so, because of the manner in which these words are used. For example I see people saying, "I am sorry WE sacked YOUR city." Now, please correct me if I am wrong but I do not believe any Catholic alive today has ever sacked constantinople. Yet, Catholics often use the word WE when discussing the sacking of Constantinople as if we were alive during the sacking of Constantinople and actually participated in its injustices. This concerns me because I see Eastern Orthodox Christians saying "YOU sacked OUR city of Constantinople." Now wait. Are there any Eastern Orthodox Christians alive today who lived in Constantinople when it was sacked? I don't think so. Wink So how can they claim that injustices were commited against them, if they were not even alive at the time the injustices were commited? The sacking of constantinople was perpatrated by people who are no longer alive against people who are not alive today in a City that is no longer Constantinople. So maybe since none of us were involved, we should stop apoligizing to each other and stop accusing each other and get over it. Just a thought. I could be wrong. Its happened before. Grin


Be quiet.

..|.

and accept the accusation

As Orthodox Christians we still feel the wound today. We will never forget.
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« Reply #172 on: August 24, 2006, 01:43:58 PM »

Papist,

Then Pope John Paul II  apologized for WHAT? Please clue me in.

This is exactly the kind of junk I was referring to above.
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« Reply #173 on: August 24, 2006, 01:53:31 PM »

But your Church is. and so are the general population of Venice.
And the people inolved are not.
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« Reply #174 on: August 24, 2006, 01:54:25 PM »

Actually, it is NOT our sin. Neither I nor you were alive when the sack of constantinople occured. Therefore, neither you nor I are guilty of sacking constantinople.

By retaining the spoils of the sack, you are retaining the fruits of the crime.  Thus, you are an accessory after the fact and as guilty of the offense as those who ransacked the City in the first place.
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« Reply #175 on: August 24, 2006, 01:55:06 PM »

And the people inolved are not.

but their familiy names were. Remember.."The sins of the father are the sins of the descendants"
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« Reply #176 on: August 24, 2006, 01:55:25 PM »


Be quiet.

..|.

and accept the accusation

As Orthodox Christians we still feel the wound today. We will never forget.

I am going to ask a question and I know in print that it will appear sarcastic. However, that is not what I mean by it. I am not being sarcastic. I serioiusly want to know if you are being serious or if you are teasing me. So, are you serious?
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« Reply #177 on: August 24, 2006, 01:56:17 PM »

By retaining the spoils of the sack, you are retaining the fruits of the crime.  Thus, you are an accessory after the fact and as guilty of the offense as those who ransacked the City in the first place.
I don't own any of the spoils of the sack. Smiley
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« Reply #178 on: August 24, 2006, 01:57:24 PM »

but their familiy names were. Remember.."The sins of the father are the sins of the descendants"
I thought this was an explicitly un-Orthodox idea and that is why the Eastern Orthodox Churches reject the idea of Original Sin.
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« Reply #179 on: August 24, 2006, 02:00:24 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg132930#msg132930 date=1156441438]
Papist,

Then Pope John Paul II  apologized for WHAT? Please clue me in.

This is exactly the kind of junk I was referring to above.
[/quote]
Well, I must say that I disagree with the actions of His Holiness Pope John Paul II of blessed memory, on this matter because he is not capable of apologizing for something he did not do, nor was done under his authority. Furthermore, he cannot know if the Catholics who sacked constantinople were repentant or not. I hope to God that they were. Rather, I think that His Holiness should simply point out that he condemns the actions taken by those Catholics who did sack constantinople and that such actions are contrary to the Catholic Faith.
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« Reply #180 on: August 24, 2006, 02:01:17 PM »

I thought this was an explicitly un-Orthodox idea and that is why the Eastern Orthodox Churches reject the idea of Original Sin.

I'm talking about the fourth crusade.
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« Reply #181 on: August 24, 2006, 02:01:59 PM »

I don't own any of the spoils of the sack. Smiley

Your Church does .. and take a walk around Venice.
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« Reply #182 on: August 24, 2006, 02:03:13 PM »

I am going to ask a question and I know in print that it will appear sarcastic. However, that is not what I mean by it. I am not being sarcastic. I serioiusly want to know if you are being serious or if you are teasing me. So, are you serious?

Serious.
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« Reply #183 on: August 24, 2006, 02:24:03 PM »

Well, I must say that I disagree with the actions of His Holiness Pope John Paul II of blessed memory, on this matter because he is not capable of apologizing for something he did not do, nor was done under his authority. Furthermore, he cannot know if the Catholics who sacked constantinople were repentant or not. I hope to God that they were. Rather, I think that His Holiness should simply point out that he condemns the actions taken by those Catholics who did sack constantinople and that such actions are contrary to the Catholic Faith.

Well, at the least, you are honest. Your new pope wants the Church to come together as It was in the first 1000 years (we'd prefer the first 800 - 900), but folks like both you and I will be impediments.
'Corporate' admissions of past sins do matter. In my lifetime I have seen "Germany" finally come to grips (if nothing else admitting culpability) with its dismal past in the last century and the Turks NOT doing the same. Japan is finally facing its past and the USA its era of racism.
When our Coptic friends decry the treatment of 'them' in the 5th/6th century by the empire and the Church I do not deny the wrongdoing (but do not apologize because they usually lump an admission that they were/are not theologically justified into said requested apology - something I'm not prepared to do). But I do not bring up the counter persecutions of the Romans they supported after the Muslim arrival, as a defense either or say "I wasn't there" or, as I get often "Get over it".

sdcheung is correct - never.
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« Reply #184 on: August 24, 2006, 02:48:16 PM »

WEll, I did not intend for this thread to get nasty, I was just trying to argue for the idea "Can't we all just get along". LOL. I guess we can't. Cheesy Just kidding. Well, you are all, of course entitled to your opions as am I. I am just a little Catholic Layman.
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« Reply #185 on: August 24, 2006, 02:50:52 PM »

WEll, I did not intend for this thread to get nasty, I was just trying to argue for the idea "Can't we all just get along". LOL. I guess we can't. Cheesy Just kidding. Well, you are all, of course entitled to your opions as am I. I am just a little Catholic Layman.

And, without prior knowledge on your part, you have tangled with OC.net's two biggest reactionaries here on this issue  Smiley
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« Reply #186 on: August 24, 2006, 02:54:41 PM »

Your Church does .. and take a walk around Venice.

Darn it, you beat me to that one. Tongue
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« Reply #187 on: August 24, 2006, 02:59:43 PM »

Darn it, you beat me to that one. Tongue
Well, Veniamin, you could say Venice and many other places as in all over France.
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« Reply #188 on: August 24, 2006, 02:59:56 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg132948#msg132948 date=1156445452]
And, without prior knowledge on your part, you have tangled with OC.net's two biggest reactionaries here on this issue  Smiley
[/quote]
LOL Smiley
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« Reply #189 on: August 24, 2006, 03:44:43 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg132952#msg132952 date=1156445983]
Well, Veniamin, you could say Venice and many other places as in all over France.
[/quote]

You know it's a sad state of affairs when to venerate Orthodox relics and see Orthodox treasures, you have to go to Latin churches.
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« Reply #190 on: August 24, 2006, 03:46:41 PM »

You know it's a sad state of affairs when to venerate Orthodox relics and see Orthodox treasures, you have to go to Latin churches.

But the RCs for the most part don't KNOW that!
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« Reply #191 on: August 24, 2006, 03:48:17 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg132965#msg132965 date=1156448801]
But the RCs for the most part don't KNOW that!
[/quote]

More to the point, they don't really care.  Ignorance may or may not be bliss, but it is one heck of a security blanket.
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« Reply #192 on: August 24, 2006, 03:54:56 PM »

Very and sadly true.
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« Reply #193 on: August 24, 2006, 05:47:53 PM »

More to the point, they don't really care.  Ignorance may or may not be bliss, but it is one heck of a security blanket.
You know that I think it goes both ways. I am afraid to get into this because I bet tempers will flair, but I have been told that there are Catholic Churches in the former Soviet Union that were taken away from Catholics during communist rule and given to the Russian Orthodox Chruch. Many have still not been returned. There is plenty of blame to go around on both sides. However, is that what we should focus on, or rather should we be trying to fix the schism?
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« Reply #194 on: August 24, 2006, 05:51:17 PM »

You know that I think it goes both ways. I am afraid to get into this because I bet tempers will flair, but I have been told that there are Catholic Churches in the former Soviet Union that were taken away from Catholics during communist rule and given to the Russian Orthodox Chruch. Many have still not been returned. There is plenty of blame to go around on both sides. However, is that what we should focus on, or rather should we be trying to fix the schism?

Then who told you "catholics" to "build" on another shepherds work?
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« Reply #195 on: August 24, 2006, 05:53:36 PM »

Then who told you "catholics" to "build" on another shepherds work?

Ouch!

Its just diversionary argumentaive technique, Fotis
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« Reply #196 on: August 24, 2006, 05:55:16 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg133005#msg133005 date=1156456416]
Ouch!

Its just diversionary argumentaive technique, Fotis
[/quote]

I know Aristokles Megale.
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« Reply #197 on: August 24, 2006, 05:58:28 PM »

I know Aristokles Megale.

Very good, show-off  Cheesy
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« Reply #198 on: August 24, 2006, 06:00:38 PM »

You know that I think it goes both ways. I am afraid to get into this because I bet tempers will flair, but I have been told that there are Catholic Churches in the former Soviet Union that were taken away from Catholics during communist rule and given to the Russian Orthodox Chruch. Many have still not been returned. There is plenty of blame to go around on both sides. However, is that what we should focus on, or rather should we be trying to fix the schism?

It's a moot point.  Once we convert all of you back the Faith, they'll be our churches again anyway. Tongue
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« Reply #199 on: August 24, 2006, 06:02:41 PM »

Then who told you "catholics" to "build" on another shepherds work?
My friend, the Eastern Orthodox Church is one Church. The Catholic Church another. Since only one of the two can be the Church established by Jesus, that Church has the responsibility to evangelize the other out of love. Because you believe the Eastern Orthodox Church to be the Church, I would expect that you believe that the Eastern Orthodox should spread their faith around the world, even where there are already Catholic Churches. Since I believe that the Catholic Church is the the true Church, I believe that Catholics should spread their faith around the world, even where there are already Eastern Orthodox Churches. Thus, just as you must evangelize, so must we, and  we must do so everywhere, even in Russia. Just as you believe that you have the fulness of the faith, so do we. Thus, Russia is not out the question for the establishment of Catholic Churches. BTW, have you seen pictures of the Eastern Orthodox Church (is it a Cathedral?) being built in ROME (another shepherds work)? Grin It is an absolutely beautiful temple.
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« Reply #200 on: August 24, 2006, 06:05:19 PM »

My friend, the Eastern Orthodox Church is one Church. The Catholic Church another. Since only one of the two can be the Church established by Jesus, that Church has the responsibility to evangelize the other out of love. Because you believe the Eastern Orthodox Church to be the Church, I would expect that you believe that the Eastern Orthodox should spread their faith around the world, even where there are already Catholic Churches. Since I believe that the Catholic Church is the the true Church, I believe that Catholics should spread their faith around the world, even where there are already Eastern Orthodox Churches. Thus, just as you must evangelize, so must we, and  we must do so everywhere, even in Russia. Just as you believe that you have the fulness of the faith, so do we. Thus, Russia is not out the question for the establishment of Catholic Churches. BTW, have you seen pictures of the Eastern Orthodox Church (is it a Cathedral?) being built in ROME (another shepherds work)? Grin It is an absolutely beautiful temple.


You have the West.
We have the East, lets leave it at that. Btw our Churches in the west were for the Diaspora, but through the providence of God, we gained Converts from protestantism and Papal "Catholicism".
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« Reply #201 on: August 24, 2006, 06:06:46 PM »

It's a moot point.  Once we convert all of you back the Faith, they'll be our churches again anyway. Tongue
Grin Looks like you are a person I can respect. I love your wit. Of course I have to say, when you guys come back to the Catholic Church you can start painting icons in honor of the immaculate conception.  Cheesy
(btw, I am not being a Jerk. This is playful banter).
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« Reply #202 on: August 24, 2006, 06:09:30 PM »

No, there is one Church. You're either in it or not. WE are the Catholic Church - you guys, Roman Cs
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« Reply #203 on: August 24, 2006, 06:10:49 PM »


You have the West.
We have the East, lets leave it at that. Btw our Churches in the west were for the Diaspora, but through the providence of God, we gained Converts from protestantism and Papal "Catholicism".
And we could say that by the grace of God we have gained converts from Eastern Orthodoxy, but I do not believe that that is a respectful way to deal with Eastern Orthodox Christians who I believe to be my brothers and sisters in Christ. We can disagree respectfuly my friend. I will never put quotation marks around Orthodoxy when discussing your Churches because I have enough respect to call your church by its name, enough if I disagree with some of the teachings of your Church. Remeber, you attract more flies with honey than vinegar.
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« Reply #204 on: August 24, 2006, 06:11:55 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg133019#msg133019 date=1156457370]
No, there is one Church. You're either in it or not. WE are the Catholic Church - you guys, Roman Cs
[/quote]

As my recently retired priest put it, the Roman Catholic Church is neither Catholic nor the Church...so it should properly be called the Roman Religious Organization.
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« Reply #205 on: August 24, 2006, 06:13:09 PM »

As my recently retired priest put it, the Roman Catholic Church is neither Catholic nor the Church...so it should properly be called the Roman Religious Organization.

i can live with that.
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« Reply #206 on: August 24, 2006, 06:14:13 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg133019#msg133019 date=1156457370]
No, there is one Church. You're either in it or not. WE are the Catholic Church - you guys, Roman Cs
[/quote] I agree that there is only one Church. I just simply disagree with you as to which Church is the one Church. I believe that all the churches in communion with Rome form the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. You believe that the Eastern Orthodox Churches form the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I understand the difference.
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« Reply #207 on: August 24, 2006, 06:15:26 PM »

Remeber, you attract more flies with honey than vinegar.

Ah! The secrets of proselytizing! Wonderful.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #208 on: August 24, 2006, 06:17:18 PM »

i can live with that.

Oh no, RROs? We'll be moderated for certain now...  Cheesy
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« Reply #209 on: August 24, 2006, 06:17:25 PM »

As my recently retired priest put it, the Roman Catholic Church is neither Catholic nor the Church...so it should properly be called the Roman Religious Organization.
OUCH! But I can appreciate that. We do not view the Orthodox Church as the True Church. So I can totally understand where you are coming from. Furthermore, we Catholics do not view protestant denominations as churches. At best, the more liturgical bodies are known to us as ecclesial bodies, but not Churches, per se.
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« Reply #210 on: August 24, 2006, 06:18:03 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg133025#msg133025 date=1156457726]
Ah! The secrets of proselytizing! Wonderful.  Roll Eyes
[/quote]

It would seem to be straight out of St Paul, who said be all things to all men.

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