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Author Topic: Why do so few Roman Catholics know about Hagia Sophia?  (Read 25504 times) Average Rating: 0
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Dismus
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« on: July 03, 2006, 06:50:05 PM »

I am really at a loss about this one. How is it that so many Roman Catholics seem to "forget" the horror story of what happend to Hagia Sophia. At least John Paul 11 made an attempt to heal the pain... But when I talk to Roman Catholics they seem to put a slant on it that skirts the whole issue and removes their role in the event.
I brought it up in my RCIA class and they were not happy I addressed it. The problem is how do you get amnesia on your history? I think more than an apology is in order here. This is another of many reasons for my distrust of the RCC.
They seem to "cover up" instead of face up. It is a real problem for me to get a handle on. This to me, seems to be something of an open wound and another obstacle to reunion (amoung many). This is just my opinion, how do the Orthodox feel about this?
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« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2006, 08:47:27 PM »

I am really at a loss about this one. How is it that so many Roman Catholics seem to "forget" the horror story of what happend to Hagia Sophia.

Well, my 'take' on this---as someone who was in RCIA three times before they gave up on me---is that the events of the Fourth Crusade and other actions make many Roman Catholics uncomfortable. Most know they did not do the right thing, and it is easier for many to ignore painful and uncomfortable things than to deal with it.

How do Orthodox deal with it? The majority of us are very distrustful of Rome due to the past history between our churches.

And, my viewpoint is: just as repentance often means making restitution, so also should an apology be followed with the return of stolen items, and I don't mean just a few relics and icons...
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« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2006, 09:21:22 PM »

Quote
This is just my opinion, how do the Orthodox feel about this?

This is my personal opinion as a member of the Orthodox Church, if someone who perpetrated the crimes is still alive... bring them before the appropriate tribunal.  Otherwise MOVE ON. 

The Orthodox have PLENTY on their hands if you really want to drudge up the past.  Ask some of our Coptic posters about the emperor Justinian, or if your interests are more modern the Orthodox stole plenty of property from Ukrainian and Transylvanian Uniates under the aegis of the Communist governments of the USSR and Romania.  Restitution is still a sketchy matter.  In other areas the Orthodox Church certainly deserves some blame for supporting hypernationalism... so really the past (and even into the present) is not so bright for Orthodoxy either.  Let's just get on with life and not live in the past. 
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« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2006, 09:31:16 PM »

Very well said. I only wonder how we can avoid future problems if we forget the past.
You are right, no one should be angry about the past- it should serve as a reminder though to help prevent conflict in future.
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« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2006, 10:00:06 PM »

By understanding the past, you can almost predict the future. However, this is good only to a certain extent, like Nektarios stated, we do need to move on and not live in the past. However, it can be debated about some things whether it is mere history, or something from history that continues to happen/affect us today. From the latter situations, we cannot move on without resolving them.

Quote
They seem to "cover up" instead of face up

I dont want to start something, but the RCC "covers up" a lot more than you think. Just look at world war 2. Even world war 1, even to a large extent the balkan wars.

I dont want to criticize Catholics, I have no right, it is for God to judge. Catholics themselves are not even comfortable in their own skin anymore. They dont have to face up and there doesnt have to be a a reunion, frankly its like living with an annoying brother; they are going to do some pretty evil things to you and never fess up to mom and dad, but theres not much you can do about it.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 10:01:00 PM by Sloga » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2006, 11:06:21 PM »

Quote
By understanding the past, you can almost predict the future. However, this is good only to a certain extent, like Nektarios stated, we do need to move on and not live in the past. However, it can be debated about some things whether it is mere history, or something from history that continues to happen/affect us today. From the latter situations, we cannot move on without resolving them.

There are things presently going on with the Vatican that we should be questioning, particularly this revisionist history going on with the Ustasa and Cardinal Stepinac.  The Vatican is actually promoting his veneration.  Dealing with issues like that seems much more productive than still talking about the sack of Constantinople. 
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« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2006, 11:58:13 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126571#msg126571 date=1151982381]
There are things presently going on with the Vatican that we should be questioning, particularly this revisionist history going on with the Ustasa and Cardinal Stepinac.ÂÂ  The Vatican is actually promoting his veneration.ÂÂ  Dealing with issues like that seems much more productive than still talking about the sack of Constantinople.ÂÂ  
[/quote]

The Vatican-Ustasha connection is something that will leave many people paranoid forever, especially people like which happen to be from Croatia. Pope Pieus XII and Pope John Paul II leave behind a legacy that people will be talking about in the future, especially the serbs. Pavelic and Stepinac show where the Vatican stand on it's policy with Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2006, 12:16:21 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126571#msg126571 date=1151982381]
There are things presently going on with the Vatican that we should be questioning, particularly this revisionist history going on with the Ustasa and Cardinal Stepinac.ÂÂ  The Vatican is actually promoting his veneration.ÂÂ  Dealing with issues like that seems much more productive than still talking about the sack of Constantinople.ÂÂ  
[/quote]
I agree that we should move on, but still, if it weren't for the Sack of Constantinople, there would be a lot more orthodox people today in the stolen part of Greece :Asia Minor including Armenians and other Christians. If there was no attack, that wouldn't have been a weakening of the City--Greece's armies would've been able to really help the Serbs in time of need. There would still be operating monasteries and churches which are now mosques, closed or piles of rubble...

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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2006, 12:24:57 AM »

OH PLEASE!

another "Remember the Alamo."!

Forgive us our trespasses AS WE FORGIVE those who trespass against us
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« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2006, 12:27:43 AM »

Dismus

Are you a citizen of the United States of America?

Do you think reparations are in order for every African American living in the U.S. today over slavery?

From caucasians today to those blacks alive today for what happened over 100 years ago?

If not, then think about what you are saying.
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« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2006, 12:46:01 AM »

SLAP (Cher to the face of Nicholas Cage in the movie, "Moonstruck")

"Get over it!"
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« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2006, 12:49:45 AM »

I agree that we should move on, but still, if it weren't for the Sack of Constantinople, there would be a lot more orthodox people today in the stolen part of Greece :Asia Minor including Armenians and other Christians. If there was no attack, that wouldn't have been a weakening of the City--Greece's armies would've been able to really help the Serbs


What times of need? Wink if the Turks didnt take out Constantinople, they would not have had an empire in Europe. No turks in Europe = No conversians to Islam = No troubles in the Balkans.

Likewise, there would not just be more Orthodox in Asia Minor, but all the current day muslims too !
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« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2006, 12:53:10 AM »

In my not so humble opinion, we could adjust this question and address the Church's treatment 700 years earlier of Egypt. The similarities are stark to me and our EO attitude is a good gauge for us in judging the RCs over 1204. Those who know me KNOW how sensitive I am about 1204, nevertheless, I think this is a valid analogy.
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« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2006, 01:02:27 AM »

Dismus

Are you a citizen of the United States of America?

Do you think reparations are in order for every African American living in the U.S. today over slavery?

From caucasians today to those blacks alive today for what happened over 100 years ago?

If not, then think about what you are saying.


yes I am a citizen of the United States of America.
No I don't think reparations are in order for every African American....
(not a good comparison- Holy relics..Holy Church....Vs. (another story for another day)
I do think about what I am saying.
I am saying that there is no trust as a result of this and other matters.
I am saying future relations are bound to be tainted by this lack of trust.
I'm saying that it is the person who ignores history that is doomed to repeat it.

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« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2006, 01:03:37 AM »

OH PLEASE!

another "Remember the Alamo."!

Forgive us our trespasses AS WE FORGIVE those who trespass against us

Yes, you are absolutely right.  BUT, why don't you try to honestly answer the original poster's question?  Otherwise, you should just butt out of the thread.  Sorry, but you weren't actually answering the original poster's question.
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« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2006, 01:07:42 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126571#msg126571 date=1151982381]
There are things presently going on with the Vatican that we should be questioning, particularly this revisionist history going on with the Ustasa and Cardinal Stepinac.ÂÂ  The Vatican is actually promoting his veneration.ÂÂ  Dealing with issues like that seems much more productive than still talking about the sack of Constantinople.ÂÂ  
[/quote]

I question the Vatican on the "today" issues. Opus Dei is very troubling and are the "new" Jesuits, stratigically placed in very powerful positions in the Vatican.
I question many other things as well.
I am not singling this one out.
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« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2006, 01:09:18 AM »

Yes, you are absolutely right.  BUT, why don't you try to honestly answer the original poster's question?  Otherwise, you should just butt out of the thread.  Sorry, but you weren't actually answering the original poster's question.

Gotta' agree with you, Elisha. He's proving the point by begging the question.
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« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2006, 01:11:22 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126571#msg126571 date=1151982381]
There are things presently going on with the Vatican that we should be questioning, particularly this revisionist history going on with the Ustasa and Cardinal Stepinac.ÂÂ  The Vatican is actually promoting his veneration.ÂÂ  Dealing with issues like that seems much more productive than still talking about the sack of Constantinople.ÂÂ  
[/quote]

Thank you for pointing this out. I never heard about this before in detail, and I am sorry that not having that information leads you to think that I would not care about it, as I do.
It is hard to know everything as you do.
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« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2006, 01:12:11 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg126588#msg126588 date=1151989758]
Gotta' agree with you, Elisha. He's proving the point by begging the question.
[/quote]

Not that I know anything to really contribute, as I was never Roman Catholic, but just saying regarding the OP...any of you ex-RCs?
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« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2006, 01:15:09 AM »

Not that I know anything to really contribute, as I was never Roman Catholic, but just saying regarding the OP...any of you ex-RCs?

Not I; but two or so years ago a thread on this let me chase off a good EC from OC.net. I regret that; even if he was wrong  Sad
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« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2006, 01:17:03 AM »

"why don't you just butt out"

because I am so sick of this same boo hoo every three months

There is a dying world out there in case you haven't noticed; people hopeless and helpless and without Christ. They are dying of spiritual thirst and we pour water on old (really old, ancient) wounds, rather than share the water of life.

I am sure that the early Jewish Church had a lot of reasons to be hurt and wounded and not follow the Great Commission. And many of them seemed to have argued for NOT obeying the Lord. St. Paul challenged them and that is why the ACTUALLY ARE  Greek Christians (and later Russians, Serbs ,etc.) and any Gentile Christians at all for that matter.

We seek a heavenly kingdom. We are pilgrims and wayfarers in this world. We do not seek Contantinople or relics or icons. We seek the New Jerusalem. Orthodoxy MUST move on and embrace the mission of the post-modern millieu or continue as an ehtnic, minority musem.
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« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2006, 01:18:41 AM »

My mother is a "catholic" although she goes to an Orthodox Church and even celebrates Christmas with us on Jan 7th. Her mother sort of tried to raise me as a catholic, but you see, that didnt really work out  Cheesy
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« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2006, 01:21:07 AM »

BTW
I have two very good friends who are members of Opus Dei who are VERY respectful of Orthodoxy and they value the early Fathers of the Church greatly, especially the Eastern Fathers.

Whoever posted about Opus Dei, do you know anyone a part of it or did you just read the Da Vinci Code?
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« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2006, 01:23:04 AM »


We seek a heavenly kingdom. We are pilgrims and wayfarers in this world. We do not seek Contantinople or relics or icons. We seek the New Jerusalem. Orthodoxy MUST move on and embrace the mission of the post-modern millieu or continue as an ehtnic, minority musem.

We also seek to share the heavenly kingdom, but when Holy Cities, Churches, Icons and other objects are being lost, we, as Orthodox Christians are losing out on the population. Constantinople could be a symbol for Orthodoxy, keeping it together nd focused on looking forward to the new kingdom. It could be a pace to unify all Orthodox Christians despite differences. These things can only make our belief stronger and more visible.
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« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2006, 01:29:37 AM »

The sacking of Constantinople did not cause it's fall to the Muslims. Alot of the Eastern Empire had already been lost to them. There was a lot of internal corruption and social religion in the empire. Although the last emperor died fighting for the city alot of them had become fat and acomodating.

We see the same thing happening in Western Europe and the US today.

We're not about empires - Roman, Byantium, Holy Russia,  Great Britain or the US

We are about the Kingdom of God!
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« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2006, 01:29:40 AM »

BTW
I have two very good friends who are members of Opus Dei who are VERY respectful of Orthodoxy and they value the early Fathers of the Church greatly, especially the Eastern Fathers.

Whoever posted about Opus Dei, do you know anyone a part of it or did you just read the Da Vinci Code?

Yes, in fact I do know less than 6 members of Opus Dei. Dan Brown's "litter" ary garbage is not my opinion of OD since it is too funny to be taken seriously. Mortification via discipline and cilice is not an invention of OD. OD has some very good schools, and excellent "reccolections" for those who love to spend more time enriching their worship.
However, they were granted some very unique priviledges and power that never existed before, and if you look at the members- it is troubling. Co-operators can range from Muslim to whatever the guy invented in his garage last week. That is another thread. Their founder was a man that .... Another thread.
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« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2006, 01:38:21 AM »

The sacking of Constantinople did not cause it's fall to the Muslims. Alot of the Eastern Empire had already been lost to them. There was a lot of internal corruption and social religion in the empire. Although the last emperor died fighting for the city alot of them had become fat and acomodating.

We see the same thing happening in Western Europe and the US today.

We're not about empires - Roman, Byantium, Holy Russia,ÂÂ  Great Britain or the US

We are about the Kingdom of God!





Dismus:

Yes, I agree. about the Kingdom of God.
I do not agree that "internal corruption" justifys in any way a Christian Church being put into this position by another Christian church. I am trying to be as politically correct when I say that as I can and welcome correction on that point.
I do not mean to upset you so by this post. I am not looking back at the "bad old days" waxing reminesect trying to boo-hoo anyone, I am looking at the reality that many factors in history have had their reprecussions, and some have led to the ongoing struggles that should not exist anymore, and hopefully will never happen again.
Although it seems from reading these posts, It appears I am right. History is repeating itself.


« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 01:39:04 AM by Dismus » Logged
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« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2006, 01:41:45 AM »

Quote
any of you ex-RCs?

I am!

As for the initial question of why don't Catholics know about or remember these events... probably more to do with the lack of Byzantine and Eastern European history in schools (really just a lack of anything but a quick skim of Western Europe) than anything else.  And it is a little awkward in Catholic Sunday school to point out "hey a lot of those cool relics in Rome are on indefinite loan from Byzantium."

As for the claim that had the Crusades not ransacked through the Byzantine Empire, the Ottomans never would have overtaken the Empire and even made its way into the Balkans... that is A LOT of speculation, that ultimately can never be proven eitherway. ÂÂ
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« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2006, 01:49:17 AM »

BTW
I have two very good friends who are members of Opus Dei who are VERY respectful of Orthodoxy and they value the early Fathers of the Church greatly, especially the Eastern Fathers.

Whoever posted about Opus Dei, do you know anyone a part of it or did you just read the Da Vinci Code?

If you would like to pm me for more details on the realities of OD I will try to get it to you as soon as I can. There are numerous wonderful people in OD. The structure of OD and it's power is what you do not see. They do not even have a constitution available for viewing.
John Paul II did a lot of wacky things, and OD was his pet project. So was kissing the Koran.
And Assisi.
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« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2006, 01:52:26 AM »

The sacking of Constantinople did not cause it's fall to the Muslims. Alot of the Eastern Empire had already been lost to them. There was a lot of internal corruption and social religion in the empire. Although the last emperor died fighting for the city alot of them had become fat and acomodating.
<snipped>

By 1453, yes, the city, never recovering from the 1204 plundering of the wealthiest parts of the eastern empire, was a shell, a remnant and certainly not FAT. Where do you get this junk?  If you feel better believing that the rape of Constantinople did not weaken the empire, fine. But that doesn't make it so. (Careful, please; I'm descended in part from refugees of 1204 who fled to Trapezounta (Trebizond) and also from a grandmother who related how the Turks 'bought' (stole) her still existing house in the City - much the same as today there or in Jerusalem today if one is non-Jewish.) Your read of history and mine differ. Boo-hoo...bah.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 01:53:33 AM by ΑριστÎÂà » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2006, 01:58:31 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126603#msg126603 date=1151991705]
I am!

As for the initial question of why don't Catholics know about or remember these events... probably more to do with the lack of Byzantine and Eastern European history in schools (really just a lack of anything but a quick skim of Western Europe) than anything else.  And it is a little awkward in Catholic Sunday school to point out "hey a lot of those cool relics in Rome are on indefinite loan from Byzantium."

As for the claim that had the Crusades not ransacked through the Byzantine Empire, the Ottomans never would have overtaken the Empire and even made its way into the Balkans... that is A LOT of speculation, that ultimately can never be proven eitherway. ÂÂ
[/quote]

Not to oversimplify and no disrespect intended ,, but are you saying that it is not easier to kick a man when he is down?
Please.
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« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2006, 01:59:05 AM »

Quote
John Paul II did a lot of wacky things, and OD was his pet project. So was kissing the Koran.
And Assisi.

If you are looking for run from these things by converting to Orthodoxy, you are barking up the wrong tree.  The power struggle and shifting going on in the Phanar are sketchy to to say the least.  We have our whacky, over the top ecumenists as well (keep in mind that the Orthodox had people at Asissi, too).  And we also have a former Patriarch of Alexandria who was always so fond of praising Mohammed.  If you convert to Orthodoxy to "escape" the problems in Western Christendom, you'll last a few years at the most.  Then you'll discover we have our own problems and wonder what on earth you were thinking.  If you convert, do you because you love our liturgical life, our spiritual life, our saints, our devotions and above all else because you believe it is in Orthodox Church that you can truly strive towards theosis.   ÃƒÆ’‚Â

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« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2006, 02:02:36 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg126607#msg126607 date=1151992346]
By 1453, yes, the city, never recovering from the 1204 plundering of the wealthiest parts of the eastern empire, was a shell, a remnant and certainly not FAT. Where do you get this junk?ÂÂ  If you feel better believing that the rape of Constantinople did not weaken the empire, fine. But that doesn't make it so. (Careful, please; I'm descended in part from refugees of 1204 who fled to Trapezounta (Trebizond) and also from a grandmother who related how the Turks 'bought' (stole) her still existing house in the City - much the same as today there or in Jerusalem today if one is non-Jewish.) Your read of history and mine differ. Boo-hoo...bah.
[/quote]

Help me out here, if I may ask you, Do you have any reccomendations of books on this subject that I may get more of an understanding of the history of this event? You seem to know much more than I will get in a book, but you may know how to point me in the right direction to get more knowledgeable on this topic.
Thanks for your post.
Sorry about your family.
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« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2006, 02:04:58 AM »

Quote
Not to oversimplify and no disrespect intended ,, but are you saying that it is not easier to kick a man when he is down?
Please.

The Ottoman Empire could have defeated the non-weakened Byzantine Empire.  Regardless, the Empire would have fallen at some point in history and likely have had at least some parts controlled by very hostile to Hellenism powers.  There is really no need to hold hostilities for an event 800 years in the past. ÂÂ
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« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2006, 02:12:58 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126612#msg126612 date=1151993098]
The Ottoman Empire could have defeated the non-weakened Byzantine Empire.  Regardless, the Empire would have fallen at some point in history and likely have had at least some parts controlled by very hostile to Hellenism powers.  There is really no need to hold hostilities for an event 800 years in the past. 
[/quote]

Not quite...The Ottoman Empire didn't exist until after the fall of the city. Yes, large portions had been lost, more through negotiated treaties (extortion) and other devices such as marriages of convenience than through open war. ALL empires fall, tired and worn out, but then I don't expect most here to understand this issue.
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« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2006, 02:14:12 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126610#msg126610 date=1151992745]
If you are looking for run from these things by converting to Orthodoxy, you are barking up the wrong tree.  The power struggle and shifting going on in the Phanar are sketchy to to say the least.  We have our whacky, over the top ecumenists as well (keep in mind that the Orthodox had people at Asissi, too).  And we also have a former Patriarch of Alexandria who was always so fond of praising Mohammed.  If you convert to Orthodoxy to "escape" the problems in Western Christendom, you'll last a few years at the most.  Then you'll discover we have our own problems and wonder what on earth you were thinking.  If you convert, do you because you love our liturgical life, our spiritual life, our saints, our devotions and above all else because you believe it is in Orthodox Church that you can truly strive towards theosis. ÂÂ




Dismus:

I am not sure where on this forum I stated it - but to be clear- I do not want to run away from RCC to something else.
I am more aware than ever after being on this forum that Orthodoxy has plenty of problems and am getting more detail on that than I was prepared for, but this is not a grave concern,
Just as my being a person who questions things - I did not stop going to Mass after hearing of horrors. I dare say it is a mark of the true Church to undergo problems.I am unsure how I could as you say "make a run" with this. It is not like a poker chip in Vegas. I guess you have me all wrong. I am merely asking the Why's as told by the "other side". My main concern as I have stated now on almost every post here is that something must be learned from this.
Now , as for Assisi, yes I am aware that Orthodox were present.
I have a hard time these days determining who is "really in " or Out of Orthodoxy especially after reading some posts on this forum that seem to discuss this matter a bit.
So, yes if true Orthodox were there- forgive me but - it really was something that leaves one to wonder what the heck is the fine line between ecumenism and false ecumenism.
 ÃƒÆ’‚Â


[/quote]
« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 02:14:55 AM by Dismus » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2006, 02:20:09 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9421.msg126613#msg126613 date=1151993578]
Not quite...The Ottoman Empire didn't exist until after the fall of the city. Yes, large portions had been lost, more through negotiated treaties (extortion) and other devices such as marriages of convenience than through open war. ALL empires fall, tired and worn out, but then I don't expect most here to understand this issue.
[/quote]

Well that was very charitable of you if I may say so. I will be happy to be one of the "most here to understand this issue"
How arrogant. Theosis includes arrogance?
Count me out.
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« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2006, 02:47:01 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126553#msg126553 date=1151976082]
...or if your interests are more modern the Orthodox stole plenty of property from Ukrainian and Transylvanian Uniates under the aegis of the Communist governments of the USSR and Romania.
[/quote]

There was no "stealing". The Church has the responsibility of wiping out heresies in its territories. Just as we rejoice that heretics were imprisoned or exiled after the Ecumenical Coucils and their lies were defeated, we should rejoice that the Uniates, at least until recent Western meddling, were not able to flourish.
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« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2006, 03:04:17 AM »

"why don't you just butt out"

because I am so sick of this same boo hoo every three months
Well YOU are not a RC inquirer, so just leave this thread if you don't like it.  It wasn't a regular poster here who is "rehasing" the arguement.

BTW
I have two very good friends who are members of Opus Dei who are VERY respectful of Orthodoxy and they value the early Fathers of the Church greatly, especially the Eastern Fathers.
Good for them!  But this doesn't explain how the average RC is probably ignorant like the original poster is requesting knowledge of.
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« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2006, 09:01:06 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126612#msg126612 date=1151993098]
The Ottoman Empire could have defeated the non-weakened Byzantine Empire.  Regardless, the Empire would have fallen at some point in history and likely have had at least some parts controlled by very hostile to Hellenism powers.  There is really no need to hold hostilities for an event 800 years in the past. ÂÂ
[/quote]

I guess we cant know for sure, but I'm going to say I'm not to sure that the Ottomans could have defeated the Byzantine Empire at its full strength. Had have the Empire fallen a few centuries later, things may have turne dout different.
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« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2006, 08:30:59 PM »

Help me out here, if I may ask you, Do you have any reccomendations of books on this subject that I may get more of an understanding of the history of this event? You seem to know much more than I will get in a book, but you may know how to point me in the right direction to get more knowledgeable on this topic.
Thanks for your post.
Sorry about your family.

here are some links

sack of constantinople 1204 links: :'(
http://www.agiasofia.com/emperors/fall1204.html
http://unicorne.org/orthodoxy/janfeb/constantinople.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/beyond/factsheets/makhist/makhist9_prog12a.shtml

the fall of constantinople 1453 :'(
http://www.greece.org/Romiosini/fall.html
http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/nicol_condeath.html

« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 08:32:14 PM by vasilisl » Logged

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« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2006, 09:12:27 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9421.msg126612#msg126612 date=1151993098]
The Ottoman Empire could have defeated the non-weakened Byzantine Empire.  Regardless, the Empire would have fallen at some point in history and likely have had at least some parts controlled by very hostile to Hellenism powers.  There is really no need to hold hostilities for an event 800 years in the past. ÂÂ
[/quote]


I am not sure about that Nektarios. The Byzantine empire in its prime fought and finally beat greater powers than the Ottoman empire. The persian empire. And not only that, but the Byzantine empire at the same time was holding off the slavs on its north-west borders

However the fall of the persian empire later resulted in the rise of the Arabs and Islam, but that is a different story..

Emperors such as Justinian, Herakleios, Vasileios II and others made the empire during their time the strongest in Europe, maybe in the world.

The rise of the Ottomans was a result of many factors.ÂÂ  The ottomans made their appearance towards the begining of the empire's decline. Princes that wanted the throne used Ottomans to fight with them and promised lands and gold. Later due to lack of manpower (result of stupid social and military decisions by some ignorant emperors), as the byzantine empire was hit from everywhere (latins, slavs, arabs and etc), they started buying "services" from every corner of europe and ofcource the ottomans who never said no in exchange for more knowledge, money and lands. As the empire was running out of money, they gave lands, and also taught the then nomad turks to become smarter and militarily trained.

As the empire was close to the end, the latins occupied aras of greece, the Turks where already "breading" genisaries (they took children under 4 years old from christian families raising them as Turks and muslems) in the ex-Byzantine lands of Minor Asia (so the Greeks losing Minor Asia did not have manpower), the Genoans and venetians controled the commercial ports and the greeks where fighting each other over to unify with the Pope (not because they believed in what the Pope standed for, but to to save their skin and city) or not!!! But they knew bad news was coming. they just had faith that walls and Theotokos will save them again. Anyway The Turks sought the opportunity and patiently worked towards the goal of concuring european lands and finally Constantinople.

If we had better emperors after Vasileios II, then i believe the 1204 sack would have never happend, and maybe turks would have still remained in turkmenistan.. Maybe yes, maybe not


« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 09:17:07 PM by vasilisl » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2006, 09:13:37 PM »


« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 09:18:07 PM by vasilisl » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2006, 12:04:55 AM »

Great information. I will have to go over it in more detail when I can pay closer attention to it.

There is so much to this event from it's causes and it's aftermath.

I see that it would not be easy to cover quickly in an RCIA class, and therefore is even more diffucult to address.

Thanks for the links and the information.
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« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2006, 12:26:14 AM »

The sacking of Constantinople did not cause it's fall to the Muslims.
From 1204 to 1254 western Anatola ( Asia Minor) was left undefended from the Islamic incursion.The reason for this is: The Latins(who unlawfully seized the throne) either (A)did not consider them ( Muslims) a threat or(B) they were to concerned with the eventual return of the true Emperor and ignored eastern defences in favor of defending the western front from ( I hate this word) the "Byzantines" or (C) both of the above. By the time Emperor Palaeologus regained the throne, most of Western Anatola was lost forever ( or only temporarily  Wink ).
 Hence, it can be reasonably argued that the sack of Constantinople DID lead to its` fall to the Muslims.

Also, the Pope`s refusal to send troops to defend the city due to wide scale refusal ( in the east) to accept the Council of Florence ( i.e. Papal supremacy) is yet another issue that R.C.`s are flat out ignorant of ( or in denial).
  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  It never ceases to amaze me how under educated most R.C.`s about their own history (let alone ours) ....whereas ,in Orthodoxy knowledge of the past is so entertwined with our faith.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 01:03:24 AM by Mo the Ethio » Logged

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