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Author Topic: Evangelistic Atheism  (Read 5121 times) Average Rating: 3
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antiderivative
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« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2008, 11:16:39 PM »

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Thanks for scoring a point in my favour.

No, on the contrary I'm making a distinction between many different communists (or revolutionaries). The revolutions in Russia were not unified and many had different beliefs. It was the atheist communists that came into power, not the communists in the 1905 revolution. The 1905 revolution was claimed by the Bolsheviks, but in reality it was a surge of anarchism throughout Russia with many scattered acts against the government. There was nothing united about it.

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You want to count beans...I'm arguing issues of quality, not quanity.
I think in cases like this quantity says a lot about quality.

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Though I'm convinced that the only reason the body count was so much lower under the Tzars is because the technology and infastructure did not then exist to murder people in as efficient a manner.
What technology? In Russia all the dictators had to do was send people to Siberia. The czars could have easily done that with trains. Maybe another example was when Stalin killed 1/3 of the Ukrainian population by collectivizing their farms, or in other words, confiscating their food without returning it. I have never heard of incidents where gulags had to invent special gas chambers for efficient killing like the Nazis did.
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« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2008, 11:47:39 AM »

No, on the contrary I'm making a distinction between many different communists (or revolutionaries). The revolutions in Russia were not unified and many had different beliefs. It was the atheist communists that came into power, not the communists in the 1905 revolution. The 1905 revolution was claimed by the Bolsheviks, but in reality it was a surge of anarchism throughout Russia with many scattered acts against the government. There was nothing united about it.

So they once fought under the guise of religion, until they determined it no longer best served their interests.

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I think in cases like this quantity says a lot about quality.

Tyranny and oppression of the human mind is the worse crime committed by the Soviets, it's the same crime committed by countless regimes before them. Mass murder is simply the logical result of this tyranny.

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What technology? In Russia all the dictators had to do was send people to Siberia. The czars could have easily done that with trains. Maybe another example was when Stalin killed 1/3 of the Ukrainian population by collectivizing their farms, or in other words, confiscating their food without returning it. I have never heard of incidents where gulags had to invent special gas chambers for efficient killing like the Nazis did.

The Trans-Siberian Railway wasn't even completed until 1913. But more than that, such organized oppression and surveillance required advancements in mechanized warfare and communications not really seen until the 1920's. It just wouldn't have been possible for the Tzars to keep surveillance on their rurual poplations in the same manner the soviets did. The tyrannical regimes of the 20th century wern't any worse than those of previous centuries...they were simply more capable.
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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
antiderivative
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« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2008, 05:26:23 PM »

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So they once fought under the guise of religion, until they determined it no longer best served their interests.

No, these were mostly different people than the 1917 revolutionaries. Getting rid of religion was not a popular move by the Soviets, which is why Stalin had to quit persecuting it during WWII.

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The Trans-Siberian Railway wasn't even completed until 1913. But more than that, such organized oppression and surveillance required advancements in mechanized warfare and communications not really seen until the 1920's. It just wouldn't have been possible for the Tzars to keep surveillance on their rurual poplations in the same manner the soviets did. The tyrannical regimes of the 20th century wern't any worse than those of previous centuries...they were simply more capable.

The 1920s was when the West (mainly America) made its advancements. Russia still remained very primitive until Stalin's 5 year plan. Stalin created his totalitarian reign through making a society of paranoia, a very similar effect in the Spanish Inquisition. He encouraged people to turn each other in, or encouraged the population to spy on each other. He didn't kill the majority of his people using new technology, mostly guns or forced starvation. New communication might have been used by a few rich "inner party" members, but the telephone and telegraph existed even before 1900, and could have been misused by the later czarist authorities.

My point is that religion is not the cause of all the world's problems, it's certain people in religion. Not every atheist is a Stalin and not every Christian is a Torquemada. It's when a certain dogma rises to power in a government that it becomes very vulnerable to corruption.
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