Author Topic: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians  (Read 5087 times)

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Offline BasilCan

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Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« on: June 27, 2006, 09:36:41 PM »
Not sure if we've discussed this before or if this is the correct forum, but, my question is this. What does your priest do in regards to the Trisagion for the Dead (aka Memorial for the dead, Litya for the Dead) for the departed non-Orthodox? (The question normally arises when an Orthodox member of the parish has a non-Orthodox spouse, parent, grandparent,  child, other close relative die) I've seen/experienced/ been told the following:

1) Do nothing. Reason: We only pray for Orthodox.
2) Do Trisagion at the Church/ home whereever requested. Reason: We pray for everyone.
3) Do Trisagion without stole on. Reason: Without stole (epitrichaelion) it is not a sacrament of the church.

It is an important question with converts and even cradle Orthodox who find themselves in mixed families.

Basil

Offline GiC

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2006, 10:05:44 PM »
Not sure if we've discussed this before or if this is the correct forum, but, my question is this. What does your priest do in regards to the Trisagion for the Dead (aka Memorial for the dead, Litya for the Dead) for the departed non-Orthodox? (The question normally arises when an Orthodox member of the parish has a non-Orthodox spouse, parent, grandparent,ÂÂ  child, other close relative die) I've seen/experienced/ been told the following:

1) Do nothing. Reason: We only pray for Orthodox.
2) Do Trisagion at the Church/ home whereever requested. Reason: We pray for everyone.
3) Do Trisagion without stole on. Reason: Without stole (epitrichaelion) it is not a sacrament of the church.

It is an important question with converts and even cradle Orthodox who find themselves in mixed families.

Basil


Why not set this up as a poll if you're interested in the practices of member's parish priests? You'll probably get more response that way. As for most priests I've known, #2.
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Offline sdcheung

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2006, 10:21:04 PM »
I don't think mine does them...

But you can do them yourselves...


Prayer of Venerable Elder Peo of Optina Re. Heterodox Christians
O Lord, seek out the Lost Soul(s) N/Ns., and if it be possible, Have Mercy Upon Him/Her/Them. Unsearcheable are thy Judgements, O Master. Hold not this my/our supplication to be a sin, but let Thy Holy will be done. Amen.

Have mercy, O Lord, if it be possible, on the souls of Thy servants N/Ns, departed to eternal life in separation from Thy Holy Orthodox Church! Unsearchable, are Thy judgments. Account not this my prayer as sin. But may, Thy holy will be done! Amen.

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O Holy, wondrous Martyr Varus, who, burning with the zeal for the Heavenly King, didst confess Him before thy torturers and didst greatly suffer for Him. Now the Church doth venerate thee as one Glorified with the Glory of Heaven by Christ the Lord, who granted thee the abundant grace to Approach him boldly, and Now, standing before him together with the Angels, rejoicing on High, beholding the Most Holy Trinity clearly, and enjoying the Uncreated Light, remember the suffering of our relatives who have died outside the Orthodox Faith, and accept our pleas, and as thou didst intercede for the unbelieving ancestors of Cleopatra and didst free them from eternal suffering, remember those who have died unbaptized and have been buried in an ungodly and Un-Orthodox manner, and pray earnestly that they may be delivered from eternal darkness, that we may all with one mouth and one heart, praise the Most Merciful Creator, unto the ages of ages. Amen

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Offline observer

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2006, 01:26:49 AM »
1) Do nothing. Reason: We only pray for Orthodox - IN CHURCH. I know it's current practice for some priest to go beyond the boundaries of the Church and pray for non-members, probably in the mistaken opinion that we should pray for everyone.  But praying for members only confirms the unity of the Faith.  Yes we should pray privately for all, but not liturgically if we wish to maintain the unity of the Body of Christ. Another argument is that we must love everyone and anything and thereby commune and pray for all in sundry, regardless of their beliefs or disdain for Holy Orthodoxy.
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Offline GiC

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2006, 02:20:01 AM »
1) Do nothing. Reason: We only pray for Orthodox - IN CHURCH. I know it's current practice for some priest to go beyond the boundaries of the Church and pray for non-members, probably in the mistaken opinion that we should pray for everyone.ÂÂ  But praying for members only confirms the unity of the Faith.ÂÂ  Yes we should pray privately for all, but not liturgically if we wish to maintain the unity of the Body of Christ. Another argument is that we must love everyone and anything and thereby commune and pray for all in sundry, regardless of their beliefs or disdain for Holy Orthodoxy.

For peace in the whole world, for the stability of the holy churches of God, and for the unity of all, let us pray to the Lord.

For our country, the president, and all those in public service, let us pray to the Lord.

For this parish and city, for every city and town, and for the faithful who live in them, let us pray to the Lord.

For travelers by land, sea, and air, for the sick, the suffering, the captives, and for their salvation, let us pray to the Lord.
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline Psalti Boy

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2006, 06:26:25 AM »
At one Antiochian parish, the priest had done the Trisagion for non-Orthodox departed family members of Orthodox parishioners a few times.  He also included the names of non-Orthodox during Liturgy; not during the Great Entrance though.  When an Orthodox parishioner, who also happened to be a member of the Masons, passed away, the Masons conducted a ceremony at the funeral home.

Offline admiralnick

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2006, 08:51:09 AM »
Not sure if we've discussed this before or if this is the correct forum, but, my question is this. What does your priest do in regards to the Trisagion for the Dead (aka Memorial for the dead, Litya for the Dead) for the departed non-Orthodox? (The question normally arises when an Orthodox member of the parish has a non-Orthodox spouse, parent, grandparent,  child, other close relative die) I've seen/experienced/ been told the following:

1) Do nothing. Reason: We only pray for Orthodox.
2) Do Trisagion at the Church/ home whereever requested. Reason: We pray for everyone.
3) Do Trisagion without stole on. Reason: Without stole (epitrichaelion) it is not a sacrament of the church.

It is an important question with converts and even cradle Orthodox who find themselves in mixed families.


How much money is accompanying the request?

As for my church, Trisagions are done for any and all.

-Nick

Basil

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Offline observer

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2006, 08:03:48 PM »
"For peace in the whole world, for the stability of the holy churches of God, and for the unity of all, let us pray to the Lord."

....for the unity of all (meaning Orthodox communities, not the Masons or Talmudic Jews).

...for this country, its authorities and armed forces.

In the Church of the Resurrection in Berlin they  pray for founders of this Holy Temple,  These founders were Stalin and Hitler.
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Offline Psalti Boy

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2006, 08:19:02 PM »

In the Church of the Resurrection in Berlin theyÂÂ  pray for founders of this Holy Temple,ÂÂ  These founders were Stalin and Hitler.


Interesting.  I never knew that.

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2006, 08:29:49 PM »
In the Church of the Resurrection in Berlin they  pray for founders of this Holy Temple,  These founders were Stalin and Hitler.

I do not wish to appear incredulous here...but I am. ???
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Offline DavidH

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2006, 09:46:49 PM »
In the Church of the Resurrection in Berlin theyÂÂ  pray for founders of this Holy Temple,ÂÂ  These founders were Stalin and Hitler.


  Interesting, if it is true it doesn't really prove anything other than that even the worst persons occasionally did something good, doesn't it? Surely this temple had sincere Orthodox founders as well.........

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2006, 09:51:44 PM »
Didn't Christ enjoin on us to pray for those who persecute us?  And if anybody needs prayers, Stalin and Hitler certainly would...   

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2006, 10:04:04 PM »
[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9375.msg125995#msg125995 date=1151545904]
Didn't Christ enjoin on us to pray for those who persecute us?  And if anybody needs prayers, Stalin and Hitler certainly would...   
[/quote]

A point I do not dispute. However, that they together founded a church...????
« Last Edit: June 28, 2006, 10:04:50 PM by ΑριστÎÂà »
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Offline Psalti Boy

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2006, 11:09:25 PM »
[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9375.msg125996#msg125996 date=1151546644]
A point I do not dispute. However, that they together founded a church...????
[/quote]

Is there any documentation to back up this story??? ???

Offline GiC

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2006, 11:35:41 PM »
I could see Hitler founding a Church to help cement his non-agression pact with Russia and try to improve relations...what I dont see is Stalin even wanting to build an Orthodox Church in Germany for any reasons, political or otherwise.
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2006, 11:39:56 PM »
Quote
what I dont see is Stalin even wanting to build an Orthodox Church in Germany for any reasons, political or otherwise.

Why not? Stalin was more than happy to support religion under his terms when it suited his interests.  Theoretically there could have been a situation where Soviet support of a Russian Church in Nazi Germany would have beeen a good politcal move.   

Offline GiC

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2006, 11:44:44 PM »
[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9375.msg126012#msg126012 date=1151552396]
Why not? Stalin was more than happy to support religion under his terms when it suited his interests.  Theoretically there could have been a situation where Soviet support of a Russian Church in Nazi Germany would have beeen a good politcal move.  ÃƒÆ’‚Â
[/quote]

Stalin eventually came arround to realizing the usefulness of religion in politics, but I thought that wasn't until after things went sour with Hitler (that's to say after Operation Barbarossa)...though I may have my timeline mixed up.
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline Veniamin

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2006, 05:59:17 PM »
Stalin eventually came arround to realizing the usefulness of religion in politics, but I thought that wasn't until after things went sour with Hitler (that's to say after Operation Barbarossa)...though I may have my timeline mixed up.

No, you're correct.  It wasn't until after Hitler's invasion that Stalin began to use the Church (since the Church was exhorting Russians to fight for the Motherland before Stalin even acknowledged they were at war).
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Offline Thomas

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2006, 12:55:19 AM »
Well the side discussion was---unusual!

Now back to the original topic.  I have been advised by my Bishop that the appropriate prayers that you can use for a non-orthodox christian is the  Akathist for Those Who Have ReposedIt can be found on several sites by doing a search by that name on any good search engine.  It has several verses about those who were not in the Church when they died and asking God's mercy upon them. [I have heard of some priests who have been allowed by their bishops to serve the Trisagion for non-orthodox people in convert parishes to educate the convert members of the convert parish in that practice, the reason, if they don't see it being done, it becomes a sacramental that is not part of their orthopraxis. The complication is that getting used to it makes it harder to give up when the temporary economia is withdrawn as the practice if eventually restricted to the Orthodox who have reposed---thus the Akathist for those who have reposed is more appropriate and as it can be done at home for orthodox and heterodox who have reposed).

In Christ,
Thomas
Your brother in Christ ,
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Offline Dismus

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2006, 09:08:37 PM »
1) Do nothing. Reason: We only pray for Orthodox - IN CHURCH. I know it's current practice for some priest to go beyond the boundaries of the Church and pray for non-members, probably in the mistaken opinion that we should pray for everyone.ÂÂ  But praying for members only confirms the unity of the Faith.ÂÂ  Yes we should pray privately for all, but not liturgically if we wish to maintain the unity of the Body of Christ. Another argument is that we must love everyone and anything and thereby commune and pray for all in sundry, regardless of their beliefs or disdain for Holy Orthodoxy.

Umm, with all due respect- are you implying that say an Orthodox man or woman who is married to a heterodox is not grieving as much for the loss of their spouse/child who is their emmediate family? i mean if that Orthodox is in the "family" of the Church- why would the Church not have mercy on the total family of that member who is faithful to the Body??
I don't think this is false ecumenism, as we already have in the senario a Orthodox in the family,,,,
Can someone explain this to me like I am 2 years old?

Offline Thomas

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2006, 01:25:33 AM »
The Trisagion is a sacramental Memorial service of the Orthodox ChurchÂÂ  that is served only for Orthodox Christians who have died (our term used is reposed or fallen asleep). Your priest willlikely have a copy of it in English available for you to read and if you attend an old Orthodox parish with elderly Orthodox parishioners you will probably see this serviceÂÂ  at least Monthly. It is improtant to remember as it is a Church Service and a sacramental it is only available for those who are in communion with the Orthodox Church.ÂÂ  It is ususally served on the day of death, three days after death, 30, 60, 90 days after death and then annually on the anniversary of the repose of the Orthodox Christian.

As in recent years many people haveÂÂ  converted to the Orthodox Church in the US and other Western countries.ÂÂ  People, like yourself, want to know how can they pray for their beloved dead who are not Orthodox Christians.ÂÂ  The method that we can pray for those who have departed who were not Orthodox Christians is to do the lay spiritual practice of the Akathist in the home or at the funeral home for our beloved dead who are not Orthodox.ÂÂ  The Akathist for Those Who Have Reposed is a beautiful series of prayers done in the Akathist format ( ask your priest what an akathist format is---he will probably have several examples to show you) that provide intercessory prayer for Orthodox dead and non-orthodox dead alike.ÂÂ  It asks for God's mercy and love to be shown to those who have reposed and reminds us of our own mortality.

In our family, We frequently do the Akathist for my father who died as a non-orthodox on the date he reposed and on father's Day and my Grandparents who were not Orthodox onÂÂ  Soul Saturdays. For my Mother who converted to Orthodoxy soon after my wife and I didÂÂ  but after my Dad died, we arrange for a Trisagion to be served for her at the church on the date of her repose annually as is the Orthodox tradition.


In Christ,
Thomas
« Last Edit: July 01, 2006, 03:27:25 PM by Thomas »
Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas

Offline Fr. David

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2006, 12:03:48 PM »
The akathist Thomas mentioned is here.
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Offline Psalti Boy

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2006, 12:46:22 PM »

The Akathist for Those Who Have Reposed


Does anyone know if it is available online???

Offline Psalti Boy

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Re: Trisagion for Non-Orthodox Christians
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2006, 12:47:36 PM »
Does anyone know if it is available online???

Never mind . . . I guess I should have read the next post first . . . duuhhhhh!!!