OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 22, 2014, 08:43:02 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Is the Orthodox Church the best place for a Messianic Jew?  (Read 3872 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« on: June 22, 2006, 05:09:06 AM »

If a Jewish person has recently accepted Jesus as the Messiah, is the Orthodox faith the best place for him to go? Given that this is the Church which Jesus and the Apostles founded, and therefore the true bridge between Judaism and Christianity, wouldn't that be the best place? Then again, I'm afraid that there may be some anti-semitism in certain Orthodox congregations. What's the real deal?

Peace.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2006, 06:26:45 AM »

is the Orthodox faith the best place for him to go?
The Orthodox Church is the "best place" for everyone. To an Orthodox Christian, your question is like asking whether or not truth is better than untruth. There is no "second best choice" here- you either hit the target or you don't.
Matthew, I like you, but I hope that one day you stop living life so lightly, and find something to really value and not something simply to  follow in order to be fashionably unique or radical. I know you are young- (I was also young once beleive it or not)- but at some stage you have to realise that this is it- this life is your only one- it is not a dress rehersal, it's the real thing, and it's precious, and every day lost and wasted will never return again. So why would you tell anyone that a Faith other than Orthodoxy is "the best" Faith for them, unless you yourself simply think that Orthodoxy "suits" you at this temporary stage of your life, rather than being the fullest expression of the Eternal and Absolute Truth? Here's an acid test for you: Unless you are prepared to die for it, it is not your Faith.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
sdcheung
it's as if..Saint Photios and Saint Mark Ephesus, has come back
Banned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,325


...even though Romania Falls, another will Rise...


« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2006, 08:38:05 AM »

If a Jewish person has recently accepted Jesus as the Messiah, is the Orthodox faith the best place for him to go? Given that this is the Church which Jesus and the Apostles founded, and therefore the true bridge between Judaism and Christianity, wouldn't that be the best place? Then again, I'm afraid that there may be some anti-semitism in certain Orthodox congregations. What's the real deal?

Peace.

They are more at home in a protestant evangelical church. As some of the "Messianic Jews" are Evangelicals who disregarded catholicism AND orthodoxy and went straight to the source as it were.
Logged


Keep Breed Mixing, and this Maine Coon Cat will be the last of it's kind. /\
No profanities in your sig line if you're going to post in the public forum.
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2006, 08:47:55 AM »

The Orthodox Church is the "best place" for everyone. To an Orthodox Christian, your question is like asking whether or not truth is better than untruth. There is no "second best choice" here- you either hit the target or you don't.

Ozgeorge, continuing your targeting metaphor: you are exactly on target here.

M777 did at least discuss that this is the Body of Christ, but somehow does not complete the circle by using this knowledge to guide his conclusion. Since the Church is the Body of Christ, who is the fulfillment of humanity, the Orthodox Church is the only place for everyone.

Yes there may be individual anti-semites in Orthodox congregations. That's the problem of those individuals, and hopefully they will grow in time with the help of the Church. Anyone who now understands that his salvation lies with Christ needs to be within the warm embrace of their Mother, the Church, as they take off the old man and put on the New.

Quote
Given that this is the Church which Jesus and the Apostles founded, and therefore the true bridge between Judaism and Christianity,

Matthew, you're so close....because the Church is the fulfillment of the promise made by the Father, was founded by Christ, and continued by the Spirit through the Apostles, then the Church is the bridge between humanity and God.
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,347


metron ariston


« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2006, 10:11:15 AM »

If a Jewish person has recently accepted Jesus as the Messiah, is the Orthodox faith the best place for him to go?

There have been a number of quite prominent Jewish converts to Orthodoxy. One, in fact, is a well known Orthodox Christian priest in the Boston area. Several others became priests, monks and even martyrs in Romania. They were well received, despite the fact that Balkan peoples often do harbor suspicions of Jews. It seems that Jewish converts to Orthodoxy, however, are very warmly received.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
chrisb
Working it out in fear and trembling...
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: St. Cyprian of Carthage - OCA|South
Posts: 210


St. Cyprian pray for us.


« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2006, 10:36:07 AM »

Matthew, you're so close....because the Church is the fulfillment of the promise made by the Father, was founded by Christ, and continued by the Spirit through the Apostles, then the Church is the bridge between humanity and God.

One gets the impression, particularly from the Apostle Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, that Christ was the 'quoin' uniting the two peoples (Jews and Gentiles) under One Covenant of Grace. Thus He is the 'cornerstone' of this New and Everlasting Covenant. I get the impression this perspective is at the forefront of Matthew777 reflection on this matter.

Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
- Ephesians 2:11-22

In my mind it is always "Him" we both (Jews and Gentiles) have access to the Father by one Spirit and never an "Institution" or "Tradition". I believe it's important to keep that ever in the forefront of our minds or we replace "Him" with something else which 'can' fail us and lead us astray. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

Peace
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 11:16:33 AM by chrisb » Logged

For whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother. - Mark 3:35
Hadel
IN CHRIST
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Jerusalem
Posts: 275


Jesus Christ Our Lord, King of Kings


« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2006, 11:10:54 AM »

If a Jewish person has recently accepted Jesus as the Messiah, is the Orthodox faith the best place for him to go? Given that this is the Church which Jesus and the Apostles founded, and therefore the true bridge between Judaism and Christianity, wouldn't that be the best place? Then again, I'm afraid that there may be some anti-semitism in certain Orthodox congregations. What's the real deal?

Peace.



On a personal note, I had a good friend in the University who is originally Jewish. I met her in the Greek Orthodox Church. She had founded Jesus and through her research, she had decided on the Orthodox Religion. When I had asked her why, she said, "because I find the faith holds freedom and thru the heart and not judgment." She also added that it was very close to her Jewish Orthodox Faith which I thought that was kind of cool. So leave it to the individual to decide, their heart will guide them.

By the way she had invited me to her Baptism at that time, very moving. On top of that, she got engaged to a Greek Guy (friend of mine too).... Smiley

In Christ,
Hadel
Logged

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2006, 11:23:36 AM »

One gets the impression, particularly from the Apostle Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, that Christ was the 'quoin' uniting the two peoples (Jews and Gentiles) under One Covenant of Grace. Thus He is the 'cornerstone' of this New and Everlasting Covenant. I get the impression this perspective is at the forefront of Matthew777 reflection on this matter.

Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)....

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. ....

color] - Ephesians 2:11-22

I think perhaps the best quote on this is from St. Symeon the New Theologian regarding the verse you emphasised:

" This is therefore what the divine Paul says was known and foreordained before the ages by the God Who knows all things in advance: that all the nations from east to west are invited and, as many believe, are joined to Him Who has become flesh from the side of their father, to Christ, the Son of God and Son of Adam. So shall the two become one, one body with Christ, His co-participants, brothers, and co-heirs with Him." (this is pulled from "The Church and the Last Things," On the Mystical Life: The Ethical Discourses, Vol. I, Second Discourse, II:95)

This verse points out several things:

-All are invited, but we still have to accept the invitation (parable of the master throwing invitations to his banquet that were not accepted comes to mind).

-The means of salvation is theosis through being interpenetrated with the energies of God through His Church, which is Christ.
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,347


metron ariston


« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2006, 11:47:37 AM »

In my mind it is always "Him" we both (Jews and Gentiles) have access to the Father by one Spirit

Just a point of information: Do you mean that Jews have access to the Father through Christ by the Spirit if they simply confess Christ as the Messiah (and continue to follow their Jewish customs/religion), or do you mean they have such access if they become baptized and active members of any given Christian community?

I ask because, at first glance, I thought you were arguing something similar to Stanley Stowers. Speaking of Prof. Stowers, what do you make of his various articles and book on the subject? If you haven't read them, check out Yale's blurb and the Amazon account. I'd be quite interested in seeing an Evangelical Protestant critique (other than the typical "ain't a simple reading of the simple Word"). If you want, I can probably dig up a review or two of his book (the reviews contain more info on the thesis and arguments).

Quote
and never an "Institution" or "Tradition". I believe it's important to keep that ever in the forefront of our minds or we replace "Him" with something else which 'can' fail us and lead us astray.

Of course, most Christians believe this is a man-made tradition and an a-Scriptural dichotomy, in so far as most Christians never understand the Church, which Scripture identifies with "Him", as an "Institution", but as a mystical reality, i.e. Christ Himself, His very Body, His own flesh, His Bride. Thus, living within the Body of Christ is not a process of living in an "Institution", nor is following that which has been handed down (as St. Paul commands) cause for failure or being lead astray, since such handing-down is both evangelical and led by the Holy Spirit.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 11:51:18 AM by pensateomnia » Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
chrisb
Working it out in fear and trembling...
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: St. Cyprian of Carthage - OCA|South
Posts: 210


St. Cyprian pray for us.


« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2006, 12:03:30 PM »

I think perhaps the best quote on this is from St. Symeon the New Theologian regarding the verse you emphasised:

" This is therefore what the divine Paul says was known and foreordained before the ages by the God Who knows all things in advance: that all the nations from east to west are invited and, as many believe, are joined to Him Who has become flesh from the side of their father, to Christ, the Son of God and Son of Adam. So shall the two become one, one body with Christ, His co-participants, brothers, and co-heirs with Him." (this is pulled from "The Church and the Last Things," On the Mystical Life: The Ethical Discourses, Vol. I, Second Discourse, II:95)

This verse points out several things:

-All are invited, but we still have to accept the invitation (parable of the master throwing invitations to his banquet that were not accepted comes to mind).

-The means of salvation is theosis through being interpenetrated with the energies of God through His Church, which is Christ.

That is a wonderful quote Chris. I have a few texts of St. Symeon the New Theologian and I've always greatly enjoyed them.

Thanks.
Logged

For whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother. - Mark 3:35
chrisb
Working it out in fear and trembling...
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: St. Cyprian of Carthage - OCA|South
Posts: 210


St. Cyprian pray for us.


« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2006, 12:39:41 PM »

Just a point of information: Do you mean that Jews have access to the Father through Christ by the Spirit if they simply confess Christ as the Messiah (and continue to follow their Jewish customs/religion), or do you mean they have such access if they become baptized and active members of any given Christian community?

I think that 'anyone' who does the 'Will of God' is a brother or a sister or a mother of our Lord and Saviour. I do believe He said this himself... Just look at my signiture.  Grin

I don't believe Christianity is as neat and tidy as Tradition tries to make it. Ultimately Tradition attempted to establish clarity where there was none and I am always questioning their success.

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." - John 3:5-8

This particular passage has always held me in a certain state of caution when attempting to articulate the 'workings of the spirit'. I'm not sure I'm willing to do violence to whatever promises are kept by God toward the Jewish people outside the Covenant of Grace in order to establish my own salvation in more concrete terms than to say I have put my trust in the work of Christ and in that work I stand or fall.

Quote
I ask because, at first glance, I thought you were arguing something similar to Stanley Stowers. Speaking of Prof. Stowers, what do you make of his various articles and book on the subject? If you haven't read them, check out Yale's blurb and the Amazon account. I'd be quite interested in seeing an Evangelical Protestant critique (other than the typical "ain't a simple reading of the simple Word"). If you want, I can probably dig up a review or two of his book (the reviews contain more info on the thesis and arguments).

I'm not familiar with him but I'd be interested in reading anything that you feel would be of value for reflection.

Quote
Of course, most Christians believe this is a man-made tradition and an a-Scriptural dichotomy, in so far as most Christians never understand the Church, which Scripture identifies with "Him", as an "Institution", but as a mystical reality, i.e. Christ Himself, His very Body, His own flesh, His Bride. Thus, living within the Body of Christ is not a process of living in an "Institution", nor is following that which has been handed down (as St. Paul commands) cause for failure or being lead astray, since such handing-down is both evangelical and led by the Holy Spirit.

I believe that the Church is the manifestation of the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth and that of course comes with an understanding that such shares in a mysterious way the very nature of our Saviour but I recognize Him as it's head and ultimate source of graces. Any group of individuals which lay claim to that identity must establish it through the fruits of the Spirit and not through rituals and claims of succession from the apostles. Such smacks of the error of the Sanhedrin of our Lord's day who did not recognize the Spirit when it was among them.

When we try to establish the spirit among us through our own means of recognition I feel we are doing violence to that spirit which should ultimately show through our works and actions not through our means of establishing it through argumentation.

Peace
Logged

For whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother. - Mark 3:35
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,347


metron ariston


« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2006, 01:11:05 PM »

I think that 'anyone' who does the 'Will of God' is a brother or a sister or a mother of our Lord and Saviour. I do believe He said this himself... Just look at my signiture.

Yes, yes. But that doesn't really mean anything, in so far as 'anyone' can claim they are doing the 'Will of God'. Who determines what is and what isn't the 'Will of God'? And, more importantly, what is the 'Will of God' in this particular case?

For example, does a Jew who confesses Jesus of Nazereth as the Messiah just need to do the 'Will of God', or does he need to accept the New Testament Scriptures as authoritative? Does he need to be baptized? Does he need to gather together with two or three other believers in the name of Jesus on a regular basis? Does he need to submit himself to the authority of a Christian teacher/community that holds fast to the apostolic doctrines "traditioned" to them (as the NT repeatedly stipulates), or can he just do the 'Will of God' as he, the Jewish convert, sees fit in every case?

Furthermore (and this is what I was really interested in), does he need to stop going to Jewish Temple, participating in Jewish Passovers, etc.? Does he need to abandon the shabbat for the Lord's Supper? Should he, in fact, stop being a Jew (in terms of religious profession, practice, etc.) and start being a Christian (in terms of the same), or need he only do the 'Will of God' as a practicing Jew or some kind of hybrid Jew/Christian?

[This is where Stanley Stowers comes in, because he argues, based on a close reading of Romans, that such is more or less what St. Paul wrote to the Romans. In fact, Stowers calls for theologians to move beyond setting Paul over and against the "Judaism" of his time, especially because so many modern Christian scholars incorrectly identify ancient "Judaism" with three reified varieties (rabbinic, apocalyptic and Hellenistic), all three of which are anachronistically treated as sets or systems of theological positions about salvation. Such a reductionist understanding of ancient Judaism, while very popular after Aquinas, is, according to Stowers et al., a completely unfounded re-interpretation of the OT (and Judaic praxis) according to Christian exegetical traditions created after the Late Antique period.]

If a Jew only needs to do the 'Will of God' as a practicing Jew or some kind of hybrid Jew/Christian, are the confessions and life-styles of "Christianity" and "Judaism" just artificial, man-made labels/traditions which, in reality, confuse the real issue, i.e. doing the 'Will of God'?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 01:27:35 PM by pensateomnia » Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
chrisb
Working it out in fear and trembling...
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: St. Cyprian of Carthage - OCA|South
Posts: 210


St. Cyprian pray for us.


« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2006, 02:12:31 PM »

Yes, yes. But that doesn't really mean anything, in so far as 'anyone' can claim they are doing the 'Will of God'. Who determines what is and what isn't the 'Will of God'? And, more importantly, what is the 'Will of God' in this particular case?

Ultimately God determines what is and what isn't His Will but truly we can know them who does His Will by their fruit. What is the fruit of the Spirit of God? You should know the answer to this question and it is from that answer that you will know them.

No ritual, no association, no membership will insure one's salvation, in my humble opinion. When we go to these lengths to establish our own salvation I see man doing the establishing not God and it is typically for a very selfish motivation.

Quote
For example, does a Jew who confesses Jesus of Nazereth as the Messiah just need to do the 'Will of God', or does he need to accept the New Testament Scriptures as authoritative? Does he need to be baptized? Does he need to gather together with two or three other believers in the name of Jesus on a regular basis? Does he need to submit himself to the authority of a Christian teacher/community that holds fast to the apostolic doctrines "traditioned" to them (as the NT repeatedly stipulates), or can he just do the 'Will of God' as he, the Jewish convert, sees fit in every case?

Ultimately I believe it can be as simple as the action of the Good Thief or as elaborate as what we find with Cornelius. Tradition has sought to establish the spirit through a set manner which I question when I reflect on scripture which appears to show a greater liberty with the means and manner in which the spirit is manifest in man.

Quote
Furthermore (and this is what I was really interested in), does he need to stop going to Jewish Temple, participating in Jewish Passovers, etc.? Does he need to abandon the shabbat for the Lord's Supper? Should he, in fact, stop being a Jew (in terms of religious profession, practice, etc.) and start being a Christian (in terms of the same), or need he only do the 'Will of God' as a practicing Jew or some kind of hybrid Jew/Christian?

Did James stop going to Jewish Temple? What about Peter? If you define "being Jewish" by adhering to Jewish custom and believing it establishes righteousness then I'd say maybe but if you are saying that a Jew needs to Christian in the cultural sense to be righteous then I'd say I don't believe so but again we should know them, as Children of God by their fruit. Remember the story of the Samaritan? Who was the neighbor of the man on the road?

Quote
[This is where Stanley Stowers comes in, because he argues, based on a close reading of Romans, that such is more or less what St. Paul wrote to the Romans. In fact, Stowers calls for theologians to move beyond setting Paul over and against the "Judaism" of his time, especially because so many modern Christian scholars incorrectly identify ancient "Judaism" with three reified varieties (rabbinic, apocalyptic and Hellenistic), all three of which are anachronistically treated as sets or systems of theological positions about salvation. Such a reductionist understanding of ancient Judaism, while very popular after Aquinas, is, according to Stowers et al., a completely unfounded re-interpretation of the OT (and Judaic praxis) according to Christian exegetical traditions created after the Late Antique period.]

If a Jew only needs to do the 'Will of God' as a practicing Jew or some kind of hybrid Jew/Christian, are the confessions and life-styles of "Christianity" and "Judaism" just artificial, man-made labels/traditions which, in reality, confuse the real issue, i.e. doing the 'Will of God'?

My view would be that beggars at the cup of grace shouldn't be in a position to cast judgement on another's servant but be clear that I'm not suggesting that we don't have standards to recognize one who is bearing the fruit of the Spirit in one's life. Somewhere along the lines of history Judaism and Christianity separated and I continue to feel that was not in the interest of God's Providence. I could be dead wrong but that is how I feel toward the manner.
Logged

For whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother. - Mark 3:35
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2006, 03:28:34 PM »

The Orthodox Church is the "best place" for everyone. To an Orthodox Christian, your question is like asking whether or not truth is better than untruth. There is no "second best choice" here- you either hit the target or you don't.

Hold up. You and I both know that there has been a history of anti-semitism in certain Orthodox circles. Otherwise, I wouldn't have started this thread in the first place. Don't be ignorant.

Peace.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 03:31:58 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2006, 03:29:39 PM »

As some of the "Messianic Jews" are Evangelicals who disregarded catholicism AND orthodoxy and went straight to the source as it were.

For the sake of discussion, the term "Messianic Jew" means nothing more than a person of Jewish heritage who has accepted Yeshua of Nazareth as the promised Mashiach.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,347


metron ariston


« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2006, 03:38:25 PM »

If you define "being Jewish" by adhering to Jewish custom and believing it establishes righteousness then I'd say maybe

Maybe? Wow. I wouldn't have expected that from a Bible-believing Protestant. Very interesting. That gives me a much better idea of where you fall on the Protestant spectrum. You really should read Stowers' book, if that's how you feel (not that you'll agree with any number of things in it -- it is a scholarly thing -- but I imagine you would find it very engaging). It would also be a decent introduction to looking at ancient texts from a theoretically sound POV (at least as far as literary scholars, classicists, epigraphists, etc. have developed things).

Quote
My view would be that beggars at the cup of grace shouldn't be in a position to cast judgement on another's servant but be clear that I'm not suggesting that we don't have standards to recognize one who is bearing the fruit of the Spirit in one's life. Somewhere along the lines of history Judaism and Christianity separated and I continue to feel that was not in the interest of God's Providence. I could be dead wrong but that is how I feel toward the manner.

Again, very interesting. Stowers could help you here. He takes Romans 9:4-5 in the present tense: "They are Israelites and it is for them to be sons and daughters, to them belong the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race according to the flesh, is the Christ." (Actually, that's not a very controversial reading. It's well attested in the manuscripts. Nostra Aetate rendered it likewise some time ago.)
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,446


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2006, 03:42:36 PM »

Hold up. You and I both know that there has been a history of anti-semitism in certain Orthodox circles. Otherwise, I wouldn't have started this thread in the first place. Don't be ignorant.

Peace.

He's not being ignorant. He knows exactly what he is saying and he is right.  The Orthodox Church is the Church for all. There is NO excuse not to join it.

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2006, 03:48:27 PM »

He's not being ignorant. He knows exactly what he is saying and he is right.ÂÂ  The Orthodox Church is the Church for all. There is NO excuse not to join it.

Anastasios

I'm not going to join a church where people will hate me for my racial and ethnic background, and neither should anyone else. The Church for all must welcome all and if that were not the case, I couldn't fault someone in not wanting to become a member.

Peace.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
calligraphqueen
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: GOA
Posts: 341


« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2006, 03:51:31 PM »

We actually know of a large movement of former protestants moving backwards towards Messianic Judaism, complete with all the OT feasts and celebrations Christ already fulfilled.  They are devout and pious people that have totally missed Orthodoxy in their search for the purest faith they can find.  They are were not Jewish beforehand, however they were probably classified as Zionists.  That is a popular stance amongst many in the evangelical world.  Most have never ever heard of Orthodoxy and the term only makes them think of Orthodox Jews.  I even had an Orthodox Jew ask me what the heck I was talking about.  Orthodox Christianity is more than well hidden!  Converts like my dh have great difficulty in shifting gears and not sharing "the good news" like we were always taught to do.  Complete with training for door to door proselytizing.  Neither of us could ever wrap our heads or hearts around that, as it totally left out the power of the Holy Spirit altogether...
I do think that the best place for your recently enlightened friend is the Orthodox church.  Why muddle around with splinters of the true faith or get wrapped up in all the shiny distractions so prevalent in protestantism?  It's incredibly difficult to find truth in that fishbowl.  And if you already know, and this person is devoutly seeking anyway-why would you suggest anything other than Orthodoxy?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 03:58:08 PM by calligraphqueen » Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,420


« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2006, 04:26:47 PM »

For the sake of discussion, the term "Messianic Jew" means nothing more than a person of Jewish heritage who has accepted Yeshua of Nazareth as the promised Mashiach.

Yeah, and that's who those people we call "Apostles" were too.
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,446


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2006, 04:27:18 PM »

I'm not going to join a church where people will hate me for my racial and ethnic background, and neither should anyone else. The Church for all must welcome all and if that were not the case, I couldn't fault someone in not wanting to become a member.

Peace.

Matt, there are people in all churches that hate people. It's a fact of life. You sound almost like a Novatianist/Donatist, as if there is a pure Church somewhere, and you just haven't found it yet.

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2006, 04:41:55 PM »

Matt, there are people in all churches that hate people. It's a fact of life. You sound almost like a Novatianist/Donatist, as if there is a pure Church somewhere, and you just haven't found it yet.

Anastasios

I can speak for my own congregation and say that people of all races and ethnic backgrounds are welcome and loved.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,420


« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2006, 05:36:52 PM »

I'm not going to join a church where people will hate me for my racial and ethnic background, and neither should anyone else. The Church for all must welcome all and if that were not the case, I couldn't fault someone in not wanting to become a member.

Peace.

M777,
Do you realize that you are just making a hasty generalization here?  Just because a certain few individuals in the Church may be anti-semitic doesn't mean that everyone is.  Shall I assume are horrible "Orthodox" because I happen to see a certain few never go to church except for an hour on Christmas and Easter?  Of course not!
Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,420


« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2006, 05:37:50 PM »

I can speak for my own congregation and say that people of all races and ethnic backgrounds are welcome and loved.

Well good for them.  I'd say the same about my own parish (OCA) and our's is about as diverse as they come.
Logged
chrisb
Working it out in fear and trembling...
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: St. Cyprian of Carthage - OCA|South
Posts: 210


St. Cyprian pray for us.


« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2006, 05:49:10 PM »

Maybe? Wow. I wouldn't have expected that from a Bible-believing Protestant. Very interesting. That gives me a much better idea of where you fall on the Protestant spectrum. You really should read Stowers' book, if that's how you feel (not that you'll agree with any number of things in it -- it is a scholarly thing -- but I imagine you would find it very engaging). It would also be a decent introduction to looking at ancient texts from a theoretically sound POV (at least as far as literary scholars, classicists, epigraphists, etc. have developed things).

Well I'd hope that it would give you an impression where I stood on the continued existences of God's Covenant with His People but I am waxing a bit more subjective of late so don't let that throw you.

Quote
Again, very interesting. Stowers could help you here. He takes Romans 9:4-5 in the present tense: "They are Israelites and it is for them to be sons and daughters, to them belong the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race according to the flesh, is the Christ." (Actually, that's not a very controversial reading. It's well attested in the manuscripts. Nostra Aetate rendered it likewise some time ago.)

I have no problem with that reading personally. It's a fairly popular Baptist position that the Covenant with the Jews is 'not' closed but I continuing one. Ultimately where that lands them with the Christian Covenant of Grace is a bit outside my understanding but I always eager to read anything that might illuminate it from a different point of view.

Was there are particular book on Stowers that you'd suggest or are these thesis papers?
Logged

For whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother. - Mark 3:35
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2006, 05:50:46 PM »

I'm not going to join a church where people will hate me for my racial and ethnic background, and neither should anyone else.
Yad Vashem lists 2,587 people who come from Orthodox Christian countries as "Righteous Among the Nations" as compared with only 2 people listed as such in the USA. So, one should "logically" conclude that there is more antisemitism in the USA than in Orthodox Countries, and that one should therefore not join any Church in the USA.....
Of course, this is all nonsense. Have a read over again of what I and others have responded to you on this thread, and you will note that the only reason to join any Church is because  one believes it is the fullest expression of the Eternal and Absolute Truth- not because it "feels good". So, do you want your Messianic Jewish friend to be like yourself and pick a Church based on fashion (and being "unique" and "radical" by joining an "obscure" Church is "fashionable"), or would you rather prefer to see your friend seek the Truth for themselves without having their views coloured by someone whose Faith is determined by something other than a search for Truth? Remember the acid test.....


Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2006, 06:02:06 PM »

And just to be fashionably unique and radical, let me conclude by saying a big "Jah Love" to you too! Wink
(There's nothing more unattractive than a 40 year old trying to act cool!)
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2006, 04:37:34 AM »

So, do you want your Messianic Jewish friend to be like yourself and pick a Church based on fashion

This is not a matter of fashion but whether a person feels safe in a particular church congregation. You seem to think that I'm some latte-sipping, sandal-wearing liberal. That would be way off.

Peace.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 04:52:59 AM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2006, 05:56:03 AM »

You seem to think that I'm some latte-sipping, sandal-wearing liberal.
No, I don't. In fact, if anyone here is what you guys in the US call a "liberal", then I most certainly am. (Over here, the "Liberal" party is the conservative party, so I would never call myself "liberal" here!)
It's got nothing to do with your politics- and if that is what you understand from my two former posts, then you are way off and are not listening. Read them again- and listen to what I'm saying.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 05:56:53 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
jaderook
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 113


« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2006, 11:48:07 AM »

If a Jewish person has recently accepted Jesus as the Messiah, is the Orthodox faith the best place for him to go? Given that this is the Church which Jesus and the Apostles founded, and therefore the true bridge between Judaism and Christianity, wouldn't that be the best place? Then again, I'm afraid that there may be some anti-semitism in certain Orthodox congregations. What's the real deal?

Peace.

I've read this entire thread and I think that everyone else covered all the bases, so to speak.  However, I'll just add my own observations considering that I looked into and attended a Messianic Congregation for a short time in the past.  There are different types of Messianic Jews.  There are those who believe in the Trinity and essentially hold to a Fundamentalist Evangelical type of theology with a Jewish window dressing, and then there are those who don't believe in the Trinity and feel they 'have' to keep the law.  Some even believe that Jews can/will gain salvation without Christ.  Some are actual Jews who come to believe in Christ and some are other Christians.

All in all, I felt it boiled down to a desperate attempt to not only try to get back to the roots of Christianity, but to fulfill a longing for something they felt they were lacking before.  As far as I was concerned, they failed miserably.  Once the novelty wore off, there was nothing they could offer me.

If following the law was the end all be all then your friend would do just as well to stay Jewish and forget about it.  As Orthodox worship came from Jewish worship, I think there's more than enough to fulfill a superficial longing for pretty window dressing as well as the actual grace to fulfill the deeper longing for God as well.  Orthodoxy contains the full truth so why get caught up in the half-truths out there?

And personally, If I were Jewish (well I do have some Jewish ancestry at any rate), I'd be offended by all of the Christian Zionists out there who play nice with the Jews ONLY because they think they are going to play some role in fulfilling prophecy or to help usher in the tribulation/armageddon/rapture/millenial kingdom/whatever.  There seems to be a preoccupation with the Jewishness of a person over the person themselves that I find highly disturbing.
Logged
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,347


metron ariston


« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2006, 12:42:33 PM »

No, I don't. In fact, if anyone here is what you guys in the US call a "liberal", then I most certainly am. (Over here, the "Liberal" party is the conservative party, so I would never call myself "liberal" here!)

Or anywhere else in the world! Too bad we in the US have lost the true meaning of the word Liberal, which is so well described and embodied by the original European Liberals, e.g. Frédéric Bastiat: http://bastiat.org/. Most U.S. "liberals" would consider such a Liberal as he to be a Paleolithic "conservative"!

As far as the OP goes, M777: YES! The Orthodox Church is a good place for your friend. As I said, I know Jewish converts to Orthodox Christianity. Not only do they "fit in" and "feel accepted," they are excellent and faithful Orthodox Christians.

P.S. If you go to that Bastiat page, make sure to read Bastiat's little tiny intro to political philosophy called "The Law."
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 12:45:37 PM by pensateomnia » Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2006, 02:03:44 AM »

As far as the OP goes, M777: YES! The Orthodox Church is a good place for your friend. As I said, I know Jewish converts to Orthodox Christianity. Not only do they "fit in" and "feel accepted," they are excellent and faithful Orthodox Christians.

That's what I think too, but he's worried that the Church isn't pro-Israel. I've explained to him that in the Church, there is neither Jew nor Greek, but he doesn't really understand that.
When it comes to Orthodox anti-semitism, I've primarily been thinking about the persecution of Jews under tsarist Russia.

Peace.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,076


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2006, 07:51:44 PM »

That's what I think too, but he's worried that the Church isn't pro-Israel. I've explained to him that in the Church, there is neither Jew nor Greek, but he doesn't really understand that.
When it comes to Orthodox anti-semitism, I've primarily been thinking about the persecution of Jews under tsarist Russia.

Peace.

And why should the Church be pro-Israel?  Or pro-Palestinian?  We have Palestinian Christians, we have Jewish Christians.... Just askin the question.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2006, 08:39:49 PM »

And why should the Church be pro-Israel?ÂÂ  Or pro-Palestinian?ÂÂ  We have Palestinian Christians, we have Jewish Christians....

Exactly. That's why it's hard to explain the Orthodox position to a Zionist, given that we take neither side.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
suzannes
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 97



« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2006, 08:52:50 PM »

This is a bit off topic, but may still have a bit of relevance.  I go to a gym at the Jewish Community Center (great gym, very affordable.)  For Holocaust Remebrance week, there was a display of huge mounted posters discussing everything from the origins of anti-Semitism, Jews in German culture, the rise of the Nazis, the liberation of the camps, etc.  There was one poster that had a statement made by the Croatian president during WWII.  The statement was something about both Orthodox Christians and Jews being driven from Croatia, the write-up commented that both groups were victimized.  Imagine my surprise.  That was the last place I expected to see that!  In any case, I learned something that I didn't know.
Logged
Tags: Messianic Judaism 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.141 seconds with 62 queries.