OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 24, 2014, 10:15:54 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Clement of Alexandria  (Read 1752 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« on: June 22, 2006, 03:16:25 AM »

This is a spinoff of another topic, that I believe deserves its own thread. 

GiC wrote Clement of Alexandria:
Quote
Not having a complete copy of it I can't say for certain (if you know where I could get one I would be quite grateful); however, if I recall properly, I believe that December 4th is the traditional date for his feast, or perhaps that was only in the west...before he was removed from their synaxarion in the 15th Century anyway.

Searching that date in St. Herman's calendar and from this menaion (http://www.tcgalaska.com/glt/texts/Dec/04.htm) no mention is made of a Clement of Alexandria; nor, did the yearly calendar (more like a full book) published by the Patriarchate yield anything either.  Supposing that perhaps you had the date off (as East and West did oftentimes celebrate the same saint on different days) I checked the index of Saints from the HTM Horologion, my Greek Synekdemos and Saint Nikolai Velimirović's Prolog of Ohrid - no mention of a Clement of Alexandria. 

Even assuming that you are correct and he does have a place within the Synaxarion of any Orthodox Church, he is so obscure, so minor that no services are celebrated in his honor, nor does he appear to have any real cultus.  Even so, I'd like to see an Orthodox source that unequivocally gives a date for his commemoration and places him among the fathers. 

The irony in this is that you question the glorification of Saint John Maximovitch despite its de facto acceptance by the OCA and Serbian Church, yet you seem to have no reservations about Clement of Alexandria. 
Logged
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2006, 03:51:55 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9332.msg125254#msg125254 date=1150960585]
This is a spinoff of another topic, that I believe deserves its own thread.ÂÂ  

GiC wrote Clement of Alexandria:
Searching that date in St. Herman's calendar and from this menaion (http://www.tcgalaska.com/glt/texts/Dec/04.htm) no mention is made of a Clement of Alexandria; nor, did the yearly calendar (more like a full book) published by the Patriarchate yield anything either.ÂÂ  Supposing that perhaps you had the date off (as East and West did oftentimes celebrate the same saint on different days) I checked the index of Saints from the HTM Horologion, my Greek Synekdemos and Saint Nikolai Velimirović's Prolog of Ohrid - no mention of a Clement of Alexandria.ÂÂ  

Even assuming that you are correct and he does have a place within the Synaxarion of any Orthodox Church, he is so obscure, so minor that no services are celebrated in his honor, nor does he appear to have any real cultus.ÂÂ  Even so, I'd like to see an Orthodox source that unequivocally gives a date for his commemoration and places him among the fathers.ÂÂ  

The irony in this is that you question the glorification of Saint John Maximovitch despite its de facto acceptance by the OCA and Serbian Church, yet you seem to have no reservations about Clement of Alexandria.ÂÂ  
[/quote]

I had a look yesterday when I first noticed the question in the other thread and I similarly came up with absolutely no evidence for Clement of Alexandria being a saint. I did find a note that his feast day had been 4th December on the RC calendar before he was removed, but absolutely nothing from any Orthodox source. I can't even find anyone (other than GiC) vaguely referring to him as a saint in passing, so it appears that he isn't an accepted Orthodox saint at all. Unless GiC can provide some evidence that he is?

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
icxn
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 251


« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2006, 06:57:53 AM »

The Greek Horologion has him on June 9 and January 18. The later date celebrates his escape/expelling from Alexandria, the significance being that it was the "cause" to convene the third Ecumenical council that condemned Nestorius.

- EDIT -

Made a mistake.  Embarrassed The above is for St. Cyril of Alexandria.

Clement of Alexandria is called a Saint by St. Epiphanius and is quoted by St. John Damascene and others (TLG told me Wink ) but doesn't seem to have a feast.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 07:23:51 AM by icxn » Logged
DavidH
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 528



WWW
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2006, 08:55:35 AM »

The Brittanica Encyclopedia online has this:
"Saint Clement of Alexandria
Latin Titus Flavius Clemens
born 150, Athens
died between 211 and 215, Palestine; Western feast day November 23; Eastern feast day November 24"

Not sure of its accuracy.........
Logged
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,342


metron ariston


« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2006, 10:00:53 AM »

Clement of Alexandria is called a Saint by St. Epiphanius and is quoted by St. John Damascene and others (TLG told me Wink ) but doesn't seem to have a feast.

Clement is highly praised and read by many of the great Fathers, including St. Alexander of Jerusalem, St. Cyril of Alexandria, St. Jerome, St. John the Damascene -- even Theodoret praises him in his Ecclesiastical History.

Clement was the episcopally-approved head of the Alexandrian catechetical school (viz. Eusebius' Church History v. 10 and vi. 11; and Clement's Str. i. 9 in GCS, II, 30, 17). His works are very important for their many quotations from the Scriptures, especially the letters of St. Paul, whom he loved, and the Gospels, especially St. John's.

Although widely accepted during the early centuries, Clement fell out of favor in the Middle Ages because his manuscript tradition became corrupt and, starting with manuscripts prevalent just after the time of St. John Damascene, copies of Clement’s works incorrectly made his Christology appear similar to the so-called "two-stage" conception of the Logos. Several first-rate modern scholars, including M.J. Edwards from Oxford, have shown that this is spurious and that Clement may actually be one of the first early Fathers to explicitly teach the eternal generation of the Logos -- a doctrine he articulated as an antidote to the Valentinian gnostics.

All that said, I don't think Clement was ever entered into the Typikon of the Great Church of Christ, because during the period when such official collections would have started, Clement's reputation had become slightly tarnished because of the spurious manuscripts. St. Photios the Great, for example, in his summaries of Clement's works (which Photios obviously read and praised in general!), mentioned that Clement had some kakodoxies. But even St. Photios muses that these appear to be corruptions of the text -- which it seems they were!
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2006, 10:13:20 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9332.msg125254#msg125254 date=1150960585]
The irony in this is that you question the glorification of Saint John Maximovitch despite its de facto acceptance by the OCA and Serbian Church, yet you seem to have no reservations about Clement of Alexandria.ÂÂ  
[/quote]

Because St. Clement of Alexandria was so highly praised and received by the Fathers of the Church, his sainthood and posisition of authority within the Church has been accepted by custom for centuries.

As for the other person you mention (who, for some reason that escapes me, seems to be a sacred cow on this site), as I said many times before he died in Schism against his Patriarch, which is anathema to the Church, nothing more needs be said.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,342


metron ariston


« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2006, 10:22:20 AM »

As for the other person you mention (who, for some reason that escapes me, seems to be a sacred cow on this site), as I said many times before he died in Schism against his Patriarch, which is anathema to the Church, nothing more needs be said.

O tempora! O mores! Clearly ROCOR is an unusual case, as is St. John. As the Greeks say, anangka d' oude theoi machontai.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,735


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2006, 10:30:53 AM »

It would appear the Copts honor him as a Saint:

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/patrology/schoolofalex/IV-StClement/index.html
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,844


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2006, 02:59:30 PM »

Let's keep from getting too testy now, shall we?ÂÂ  This isn't a personal attack on anyone here, so let's not take it as such.ÂÂ  And keep the colorful rhetoric belittling saints of Orthodox churches to a minimum - restrict it to unmoderated fora.

GiC, you were asked for proof of Clement's being accepted as a saint.ÂÂ  I'm interested in seeing what you can find.


« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 03:01:14 PM by cleveland » Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 11,904


St. Hripsimeh pray for us!


« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2006, 03:48:56 PM »

I think the Catholics accept him as a saint:

http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=2678

You'd think that if both the Catholics and the OO's held him to be a saint, that the EO's would also.  Still, I guess it is possible that the EO's could have some issue with him that the OO's and Catholics have overlooked.
Logged

"I don't think I've ever eaten anything Armenian I didn't like.  I even drink my non-Armenian coffee out of a St Nersess Seminary coffee mug because it is better that way." --Mor Ephrem
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,342


metron ariston


« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2006, 04:05:13 PM »

You'd think that if both the Catholics and the OO's held him to be a saint, that the EO's would also.  Still, I guess it is possible that the EO's could have some issue with him that the OO's and Catholics have overlooked.

The questions isn't REALLY if he's considered a Saint, but if he has a particular feast day (and thus a set of hymns and cultus) -- all of which would indicated that he is officially accepted as a Saint by a particular local EO Church and, therefore, more-or-less endorsed as an example in the Faith.

Personally, I think St. Clement was not entered in the Typikon of the Great Church because of the reasons I explained above, and, thus, since he was not entered as a Saint in Constantinople, his celebration as a Saint did not pass on to the other eventually distinct national churches, which inherited their Typika for the early years from Constantinople. (There are many saints which the Great Church doesn't inscribe in its Typikon. It's not intended to be exhaustive.)

However, I have seen him called a saint in many Eastern Orthodox theological publications, and, of course, he is always listed in Patrologies.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2006, 06:54:57 PM »

Quote
Clement is highly praised and read by many of the great Fathers, including St. Alexander of Jerusalem, St. Cyril of Alexandria, St. Jerome, St. John the Damascene -- even Theodoret praises him in his Ecclesiastical History.

Similar remarks could be said of Origen, Tertullian and even several non-Christians.  That does not deal with the question of where is his cultus and should his works and teachings be considered part of the patristic tradition?

Quote
Because St. Clement of Alexandria was so highly praised and received by the Fathers of the Church, his sainthood and posisition of authority within the Church has been accepted by custom for centuries.

Bases on what sources?  In what churches and monasteries can his icon be found?  Where is his feast kept?  If his position is known by such common knowledge surely modern collections of Saints would include his name, yet I have not been able to locate any Orthodox ones that do. 

Quote
As for the other person you mention (who, for some reason that escapes me, seems to be a sacred cow on this site), as I said many times before he died in Schism against his Patriarch, which is anathema to the Church, nothing more needs be said.

Interestingly enough relations were fairly good between the ROCOR and the EP until about the time of St. John's death, so I find it curious you take such a polemical stand on this matter.  Eitherway if it is matter between Moscow and the ROCOR as you say, are you following the talks between the two parties?  If Moscow (or in the case of her daughter church, the OCA) accepts St. John's glorification...

Quote
The questions isn't REALLY if he's considered a Saint, but if he has a particular feast day (and thus a set of hymns and cultus) -- all of which would indicated that he is officially accepted as a Saint by a particular local EO Church and, therefore, more-or-less endorsed as an example in the Faith.

The question I am asking is whether somone who is as obscure as Clement of Alexandria (who appears to have no feast, no cultus, no icons) should be exalted to a position by GiC that he is - that when Clement's doctrine is at odds with the patristic consensus that Clement ought to be declared as having the Orthodox doctrine? 

Other than being mentioned in passing as a Saint by a few other works (yet not actually being venerated as such, apparently) and being respected by others (then again many non-Christians were respected, so I hardly see this as an endorsement of sainthood nor overall doctrinal soundness) why should anyone consider Clement of Alexandria a saint or believe that his works belong to (or are the pinnacle of!) the patristic tradidition? 
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2006, 10:04:48 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9332.msg125366#msg125366 date=1151016897]
Similar remarks could be said of Origen, Tertullian and even several non-Christians.ÂÂ  That does not deal with the question of where is his cultus and should his works and teachings be considered part of the patristic tradition?
[/quote]

They always have been considered part of the patristic tradition (mind you, so has Origen's and Tertullian's to a degree), but as for such People as Origen and Tertullian, they were condemned by specific councils, the same cannot be said for Clement.

Quote
Interestingly enough relations were fairly good between the ROCOR and the EP until about the time of St. John's death, so I find it curious you take such a polemical stand on this matter.ÂÂ  Eitherway if it is matter between Moscow and the ROCOR as you say, are you following the talks between the two parties?ÂÂ  If Moscow (or in the case of her daughter church, the OCA) accepts St. John's glorification...

Even though relations between ROCOR and the Oecumenical Throne were cordial until around that time, communion was broken when Moscow Excommunicated ROCOR for their blasphemous and schismatic belief that the Russian Church was without Legitimacy or Grace. Even if Moscow states she believes him to be a saint, I will withold my veneration. The Slanderous and Libelous attacks the person in question made against the Oecumenical Throne subject him to the review of said Throne just as much as his Slanderous and Libelous attacks against the Holy Hierarchs of Russia should be subject to the Synod of Moscow. Furthermore, if Moscow enters him into their Typikon I believe it can be safely said to be for political reasons, the issue of whether the person in question is a Saint is hardly one that should interfere in the return of lost sheep to the Body of Christ.

Quote
The question I am asking is whether somone who is as obscure as Clement of Alexandria (who appears to have no feast, no cultus, no icons) should be exalted to a position by GiC that he is - that when Clement's doctrine is at odds with the patristic consensus that Clement ought to be declared as having the Orthodox doctrine?ÂÂ  

What is the so-called patristic consensus that he is at odds with? If there is one thing I have learned from my studies of the fathers it is that 'patristic consensus' is a myth. Plus, the teachings of Clement are consonant with the teachings of several other fathers of the Church, amongst whom can be listed two of our Church's greatest theologans, Gregory of Nyssa and Gregory of Nazianzus, as well as, in all probability, Athanasios the Great who seems to adopt the doctrine of apokatastasis as a presupposistion in many of his writings.

Quote
Other than being mentioned in passing as a Saint by a few other works (yet not actually being venerated as such, apparently) and being respected by others (then again many non-Christians were respected, so I hardly see this as an endorsement of sainthood nor overall doctrinal soundness) why should anyone consider Clement of Alexandria a saint or believe that his works belong to (or are the pinnacle of!) the patristic tradidition?ÂÂ  

Then don't accept an appeal to St. Clement of Alexandria as an appeal to authority, for Clement, unlike lesser men, does not merely pontificate in his great writings; rather, they are logical and well argued posistions, they were designed for controversy and debate, they are not mere homilies. Read Clement and accept or reject his posistions on the weight of his arguments (though the era and style of rhetoric should be taken into consideration). While I have referred in passing to Clement on many occasions, I do not believe that I have yet based the entirety of a posistion on the personal merit and authority of any individual.

It is I who have argued the particulars of the issue at hand, while my opponents have ignored many of my arguments (rarely even responding to the philosophical ones that are presented, some of which come straight out of Clement of Alexandria or Gregory of Nyssa) and have pontificated against me. Very recently when I presented some details of my posistion on the Infinite Mercy of God, which was the source of this discussion, the response I received was 'the Church says' or 'the Fathers say,' without any demonstration of this actually being the case. So while I often refer to Clement of Alexandria (considering some of my arguments, to do otherwise would be plagiarism), I refer to him as a source, I have generally not pontificated on the matter unless someone else starts it, then I tend to focus on Gregory of Nyssa and Gregory the Theologian, both of whom are beyond reproach.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 10:08:02 PM by greekischristian » Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,347


« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2006, 11:27:46 PM »

Even though relations between ROCOR and the Oecumenical Throne were cordial until around that time, communion was broken when Moscow Excommunicated ROCOR for their blasphemous and schismatic belief that the Russian Church was without Legitimacy or Grace. Even if Moscow states she believes him to be a saint, I will withold my veneration. The Slanderous and Libelous attacks the person in question made against the Oecumenical Throne subject him to the review of said Throne just as much as his Slanderous and Libelous attacks against the Holy Hierarchs of Russia should be subject to the Synod of Moscow.
I believe I can safely say then that the pride the quoted poster has for the EP has spiritually blinded him.    The grace he could be receiving by pleading intercessions before St. John to Christ are a great loss for the above poster. 

Furthermore, if Moscow enters him into their Typikon I believe it can be safely said to be for political reasons, the issue of whether the person in question is a Saint is hardly one that should interfere in the return of lost sheep to the Body of Christ.
Then it can be safely said that the quoted poster has hardened his heart and thinks his spiritual discernment is greater than that of the wise hierarchs of the Synod of Moscow.
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2006, 11:36:33 PM »

Then it can be safely said that the quoted poster has hardened his heart and thinks his spiritual discernment is greater than that of the wise hierarchs of the Synod of Moscow.

No the quoted poster believes that the wise hierarchs of the Synod of Moscow are showing good spiritual discernment on this matter, as it would not be prudent to interfere in the return of many to the Christan Faith over disputes about an individual's title. If by the entering of any name into the Typikon thousands could be brought to the Church with no substantial negative impact, then it would be prudent to enter said name, whosever it may be.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,844


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2006, 12:13:53 AM »

It's ceased to be about whether or not Clement is a saint.  I think we've heard all we will as far as evidence and argument...
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.082 seconds with 42 queries.