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Author Topic: ROCOR & MP & OCA  (Read 7315 times) Average Rating: 0
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Bishop Paul Andrew
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« on: June 20, 2006, 11:07:33 PM »

This is a question that I need to understand

First of all I'll start with the MP.ÂÂ  When Stalin had shut down the Russian Churches and had a lot of Bishops and priest Killed or put in Prison.,that what was left of the Hiearchie and priest that the had signed the loyalty oath to the Communist Government. Plus a lot of Bishops and priest became KGB agents.

Second. A lot of Bishops and priest did not sign the Loyalty oath to the Communist Government. Like ROCOR and the OCA former name Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church.ÂÂ  Now what I don't understand is why did the OCA went backÂÂ  in to communion with the Communist Church in 1970 in stead of claiming it own Jurisdiction when Patriarch Tikon had told the ruling Bishops here in America.

Third. Now that the Communist Government is no more or is it just waiting for the right time to reapear. Since then people left the Russian Orthodox ChurchÂÂ  and went under the RC and Protestant Churches or went under the EP. Now we see that ROCOR is now going back in to communion with the MP. and still there are Bishops who still do not trust the MP.do to that the MP Church has not repented. Plus a lot of Russian also still do not trust the MP. That is why there is still the Catacomb Churches and Bishops still in Schism. This is all confusing to me. So I wonder what does God say about all of this.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2006, 11:32:02 PM by Father Paul Andrew » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2006, 11:15:30 PM »

Quote
So I wonder what does God say about all of this.

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2006, 11:15:59 PM »

I'm sorry, this is simply unreadable. Please use a spellchecker before posting in the future. Many browsers like Firefox have a spellchecker extension that can be easily installed.
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2006, 11:30:35 PM »

I'm sorry, this is simply unreadable. Please use a spellchecker before posting in the future. Many browsers like Firefox have a spellchecker extension that can be easily installed.


Thank you I made the Correction
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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2006, 03:46:46 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9320.msg125098#msg125098 date=1150859730]
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
[/quote]

It did in the Russian Church
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2006, 04:22:44 AM »

It did in the Russian Church

Only in the opinion of a few fundamentalist schismatics, when it was they, not the Patriarchate of Moscow, who departed from the Christian Faith.
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2006, 05:50:45 AM »

FPA:

If you believe that the gates of hell prevailed against the Russian church then you deny the words of Christ that Nektarios quoted.
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« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2006, 07:10:36 AM »

It did in the Russian Church

If it did in the Russian Church, that would make Christ a liar, now wouldn't it?
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« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2006, 07:43:58 AM »

greekischristian is trolling/being hurtful again but the main point is that cowardice/compromise doesn't take away the grace of holy orders. The Russian Church never became un-Orthodox. It wasn't trustworthy in Soviet times, something universally recognised outside the Iron Curtain, but its bishops remained bishops of the Orthodox communion even if they were KGB agents.

In 1946 the American metropolia was right not to submit to the Soviets. By 1970 apparently things had calmed down enough that the Russians could sit down with the Americans and grant them independence. Next to nobody thought the now-OCA was a Soviet front. (ROCOR thought the metropolia belonged under them and were angry that the latter disagreed.)

Now that there is no Soviet Union these are dead-horse issues.
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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2006, 08:06:12 AM »

Only in the opinion of a few fundamentalist schismatics, when it was they, not the Patriarchate of Moscow, who departed from the Christian Faith.

Ah, now it's not just departing Orthodoxy, it's departing Christianity lol
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« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2006, 10:24:00 AM »

FPA:

If you believe that the gates of hell prevailed against the Russian church then you deny the words of Christ that Nektarios quoted.

The gates of hell prevailed against the Roman Church. You need read the example of St. Maximus, the Confessor.
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2006, 10:28:18 AM »

Only in the opinion of a few fundamentalist schismatics, when it was they, not the Patriarchate of Moscow, who departed from the Christian Faith.

Oh really?

Source: Living Orthodoxy (A ROCOR Magazine); #146; Vol. XXV; #2, March-April 2005 (can be ordered from sjkp.org)

THE MOSCOW PATRIARCHATE:
TESTIMONY OF ORTHODOX BISHOPS


"The defenders of Sergius say that the canons allow one to separate from a bishop only for a heresy which has been condemned by a council. Against this one may reply that the deeds of Metropolitan Sergius may be sufficiently placed in this category as well, if one has in view such an open violation by him of the freedom and dignity of the Church, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic."
- St. Joseph, Metropolitan of Petrograd (d. 1938),
Letter to an Archimandrite of Petrograd, 1928

"If you are helpless to defend the Church, step aside; clear the space for someone stronger than you."
- St. Peter, Metropolitan of Krutitsk (d. 1936)
(Locum Tenens of the Patriarchate)
Letter to Metropolitan Sergei, 1930

"... You are nothing other than a continuation of the so-called 'Renovationist' (Living Church) movement, only in a more refined and very danger now already criminal silence over your mistakes and incorrect actions and, with the blessing of Dimitry, Bishop of Gdov, to disassociate ourselves from you and those who surround you. Leaving you, we do not depart from the lawful Locum Tenens, Metropolitan Peter, and we shall give ourselves over to the judg ment of a future council."
- Letter of the Clergy and Laity of Serpukhov to Metropolitan Sergei, 1927
(Possibly written by St. Maxim, Bishop of
Serpukhov (d. 1931))

"As for me, acknowledging my responsibility be 10/23 of this year to Bishop Sophronius, who has been assigned to the See of Great Ustiug by [Sergius'] Synod, that my flock and the clergy of Nikolsk - except for the
cathedral clergy, who have been rejected by the people - cannot accept him because we have separated from Sergius and his Synod. And on the other hand I have informed Metropolitan Joseph that I canonically join to him the clergy and laity of the Diocese of Great Ustiug, in accordance with the blessing of Vladika Irinarch, whose lawful Substitute I am at the present time for the whole Diocese of Great Ustiug. (...) I propose that my epistle be read and considered at assemblies of the faithful, so that all might know the way the matter stands and freely enter into unity with me, remain ing faithful to the Locum Tenens of the Patriarchal See, Metropolitan Peter, and to the entire Ortho Cathedral of the Lord's Meeting in Nikolsk... are in a state of excommunication from me until they shall show sincere repentance in the form established for Renovationists, or until a complete council of bishops shall judge the case of Metropolitan Sergius and those who are with him (10th Canon of the HolyApostles)." I place before you these hirelings, who see the wolf approach and flee; do not follow them, my brethren and children...."
- St. Hierotheus, Bishop of Nikolsk (d. 1928)
Letter to the clergy and laity
of the Diocese of Great Ustiug, 1928

"After the historic Petrograd Delegation Metro of Archbishop and temporary head of the Petrograd Diocese. Metropolitan Sergius thereupon placed Archbishop Dimitry un to accept this or any other decrees coming from Metropolitan Sergius, recognizing that by his `adaptation to atheism' he had placed himself in schism from the Russian Church."
- I.M. Andreyev on St. Dmitri,
Archbishop of Gdov (d. 1938)


"....I accept you into communion in prayer with myself and under my archpastoral leadership... until such time as a complete Local Council of the Russian Church, at which there will be represented the entire active episcopate - i.e., the present exiles-confessors - shall justify by its conciliar authority our way of acting, or until such time as Metropolitan Sergius will come to himself and repent of his sins not only against the canonical order of the Church, but also dogmatically against her person...."
- St. Dmitri, Archbishop of Gdov (d. 1938)
Letter to the priests of the Petrograd Diocese, 1928

"But if the temporary substitute of the Patriarchal Locum Tenens will stubbornly continue in his scheme, and will not free his post, we will depart from him as a whole Church, for the episcopate has the right and the foundation to deprive him of the authority in which it clothed him for building up and not destroying (II Cor 10:Cool the life of the Church. ... But if he (Metropolitan Sergius) dis policy and pretend to the authority of the chief hierarch, then he of course will turn out to be a church rebel and schismatic."
- St. Pachomius, Archbishop of Chernigov (d. 1937); and St. Averky, Archbishop of
Zhitomir (d. 1938?)
Epistle of 1927

"Let the whole visible world perish; let there be more important in our eyes the certain perdition of the soul to which he will be subjected who presents such outward pretexts for sin. "But if the hardness of your heart has gone far, and there remains no hope for repentance, even for this outcome we have a text to enlighten us: Wherefore come out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not their uncleanness; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."
- St. Victor, Bishop of Glazov (d. 1934),
Letter to Metropolitan Sergei, 1927

"We, the bishops of the Yaroslav church region, acknowledging the responsibility which lies on us before God for those things which have been en freedom for the ordering of the inward church-religious life which Christ has given us as a testament - in order to calm the disturbed conscience of the faithful, having no other way out of the fatal situation which has been created for the Church, from this time onwards separate from you and refuse to acknowl right to the higher administration of the Church."
- St. Agafangel, Metropolitan of Yaroslav (d. 1928) - St. Seraphim, Archbishop of Uglich (Vicar of the Yaroslav Diocese, former Substitute of the Locum Tenens) (d. ca. 1935)
- St. Barlaam, Archbishop of Perm (temporarily governing the Lyubinsk Vicariate) (d. 1942)
- St. Eugene, Bishop of Rostov (Vicar of the Yaroslav Diocese) (d. 1937)
Letter to Metropolitan Sergei, 1928

"Bishop Philip (Gumilevsky) [was] shot to death in the Krasnoiarsk prison in 1934 for refusing to accept the authority of Metropolitan Serge."
- Archpriest Michael Polsky

"With what joy I gave over to you my own rights as Substitute of the Locum Tenens, believing that your wisdom and experience would cooperate with you in the governance of the Church. But what happened? Can this fatal act really not be corrected? Will you really not find the courage to acknowledge your error, your fatal mistake, the issuance by you of the Declaration of July 16/29, 1927?"
- St. Seraphim, Archbishop of Uglich (d. ca. 1935)
Letter to Metropolitan Sergei, 1928

"Concerning the modernized church or concerning Sergian ‘Orthodoxy', I, a sinner, believe that, as regards such church activists, we must call them not only heretics and schismatics, but as those who have apostasized from God. After all, Metropoli heresy of modernized apostasy from God - of which the natural consequence has been confusion and schism in the Church. Can one, after this, affirm that the declaration and activity of Metropolitan Sergius concerns only the external life of the Church, and does not touch in anyway the essence of the Church's Orthodoxy? In no way can this be said. Metropolitan Sergius, by his self wise and evil-worshipping declaration and the anti-Church work which followed it, has created a new renovationist schism or Sergian renovation, which while preserving for the `little ones' a fiction of Orthodoxy and canonicity is even more criminal than the first two renovationisms of 1922 and 1925. And so Metropolitan Sergius has trampled on not only the external, but the very inner essence of the Orthodoxy of the Church, since his 'ho the very essence of Christian Faith and presents by itself clear apostasy, falling away from the Faith, and departure from God."
- St. Paul, Bishop of Starobela Epistle of 1928

"By his actions against the spirit of Orthodoxy, Metropolitan Sergius has torn himself away from unity with the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and has forfeited the right of presidency in the Russian Church."
- St. Alexei, Bishop of Kozlov (administering
the Diocese of Voronezh) (d. 1936)
Epistle of 1928

"...it is essential for an Orthodox Bishop or priest to refrain from communion with Sergianists in prayer."
- St. Cyril, Metropolitan of Kazan (d. 1937?) Epistle of 1934

"The chief priest of Soviet Russia, the head of the Moscow Orthodox Church, Bishop Andrew re betrayer of Christ."
Testimony of a fellow prisoner
regarding St. Andrew, Bishop of Ufa (d. 1937)

"All followers of the lying-Metropolitan Sergei are themselves filled with lies and evil, and have fallen away from the truth of Christ; they have fallen away from Christ's Church. The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is somewhere, in some other place, but not with Metropolitan Sergei, not with `his synod.' ...The holy Church will remember with horror the sins of Sergei and his fellow activists, having placed his name next to the names of ecumenical pseudo-Patriarchs Nestorius, Dioscorus, and other terrible traitors to Orthodoxy."
- St. Andrew, Bishop of Ufa (d. 1937), quoted in Zelenogorsky,
Life and Work of Archbishop Andrew

"If looking from afar I still supposed that there were some circumstances justifying his behavior, I have completely lost this belief."
- St. Damascene,
Bishop of Glukhov (d. ca. 1935)
After meeting with Metropolitan Sergei in 1928

"And we must not only teach others, but ourselves also fulfill, following the examples of the Moscow saints, whom we have commemorated today. They stand before us as Orthodox zealots, and we must follow their example, turning aside completely from the dishonesty of those who have now occu not only would not recognize any of their succes condemnation."
- Metropolitan Anastasy (Gribanovsky) (d. 1965)
Address to the Sobor of Bishops, 1959

"Those hierarchs who have compromised the free the State have committed in the words of Bishop Victor (Ostrovidov), one of the first Russian confessor bishops to speak out against Sergianism, `a sin that is not less than any heresy or schism, but is rather incomparably greater, for it plunges a man immediately into the abyss of de struction, according to the Unlying Word: 'Who Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven' (Matt. 10:33)."'
from Andreev, Russia's Catacomb Saints

"Bishop Hilarion, formerly of Smolensk, was a most irreconcilable enemy of the declaration of Metropolitan Sergei of 1927; he denied the sacra those already married in a'Soviet Church."'
- Protopresbyter Michael Polsky,
New Martyrs of Russia

"We, the free bishops of the Russian Church, do not want a truce with Satan, although you are trying to obscure the question by calling our hostile relationships only a policy.... "Here, we offer you the salutary oil of faith and loyalty in the Holy Church. Do not refuse it, but reunite with it as in 1922 ..."
- Metropolitan Antony (Khrapovitsky) (d. 1936)
Letter to Metropolitan Sergei, 1933
(Alluding to Sergei's return to the Church
from the Renovationist schism)

"It is noteworthy that several hierarchs and their flocks, for the most part Russians, have already fallen away from the Ecumenical unity, and to the question: `What dost thou believe?' reply with references to self-proclaimed heads of all sorts of schisms in Moscow, America and Western Europe. It is clear that they have ceased to believe in the unity of the Church.... Those who have cut themselves off from her deprive themselves of the hope of salvation, as the Fathers of the Sixth
Ecumenical Council teach concerning this, having recognized the renegades as being totally devoid of grace.... Unfortunately, some Orthodox laymen, even, alas, many-priests (and hierarchs) have sub state of gracelessness, although still retaining the outward appearance of the church services and the apparent performance of the Mysteries."
- Metropolitan Antony (Khrapovitsky) (d. 1936)
Paschal Encyclical, 1934


"The mystical desert-like catacomb Church has anathematized the Sergians and all that are with them."
-St. Maxim, Bishop of Serpukhov (d. 1931)
quoted in Polsky, New Martyrs of Russia

"Since the Moscow Patriarchate initially was di intelligence, but, simultaneously, with a flexible conscience, it rejected the crude violations of Orthodoxy which could be recognized by the simple faithful.... But Patriarch Sergius also, per the Church at the disposal of apostasy."
- Protopresbyter George Grabbe (later Bishop Gregory) (d. 1995)
The Dogma of the Church in the Modern World

"Why did this calamity befall Father Dimitry Dudko? (...) "Because his activity took place outside of the true Church.... What then is the `Soviet church'? Archimandrite Constantine has often and insistently stated that the most horrible thing that the God-hating regime has done in Russia is the creation of the `Soviet church,' which the Bolsheviks presented to the people as the true Church, having driven the genuine Orthodox Church into the catacombs or into the concentra tion camps. This pseudo-church has been twice anathematized. His Holiness Patriarch Tikhon and the All-Russian Church Sobor anathematized the Communists and all their collaborators. This dread anathema has not been lifted till this day and remains in force, since it can only be lifted by a similar All-Russian Church Sobor .... When Met ropolitan Sergius promulgated his criminal Decla children of the Church immediately separated themselves from the Soviet church, and thus the Catacomb Church was formed. And she, in her turn, has anathematized the official church for its betrayal of Christ."
- Metropolitan Philaret (Voznesensky) (d. 1985)
Letter Concerning Father Dmitri Dudko, 1980

"Then the True Church went into the catacombs, into a position of illegal existence. From that time to this day the Soviet Moscow Patriarchate is liable to judgment, and until that future true council there can be no kind of contact, not even in everyday matters, as Metropolitan Anastasy, re testament."
-Archbishop (later Metropolitan) Vitaly (Ustinov) (b. 1910)
On Father Dmitri Dudko, 1981

"Archbishop Nikodim was approached by one of the faithful who said to him `But Vladika, these poor people in Russia have no other Church to go to but the Patriarchal ones!' The bishop replied to her `Better no Church than a Soviet church!"'
- from a conversation with a seminarian, now a Synodal Priest (Monastery Press)

"This being the case, which of us is really the schismatic? Of course it is not those in the spirit of traditional Orthodoxy, but those who have apostasized from the true faith of Christ and re piety; even though all the contemporary patriarchs, who have altered our age-old, patristic Orthodoxy, may be on the latter's side ..."
- Archbishop Averky (Taushev) (d. 1976) “Are the Terms `Christian 'and `Orthodox' Accurate in Our Times?" (1975)

"But you know that the new church is a lawless church."
- St. Arseny, Metropolitan of Novgorod (d. 1936)
refusing to join the Sergianist schism

"In an edict of Metropolitan Sergei, concerning Bishops Dimitry Gdov and Sergei Korporsky, it is written that Bp. Dimitry had called `those churches which commemorated Metropolitan Sergei "inno priests as without grace; and moreover, that one of such churches he publicly called `a temple of satan."'
- Monastery Press (Montreal)

"According to many canonical rules, all of the so Patriarchate, being KGB agents, are apostates from Christ. The 621" Apostolic Canon deprives them of these titles, and if they repent, it calls for them to be accepted as laymen and not to be ordained. Similar orders are found in numerous (24) canonical rules. From this, we see that the Divine Canons do not admit the Divine Gifts to apostates - KGB agents. "
- Archbishop Anthony of Los Angeles
"Last Will and Testament" (1995)

All this saints and blessed mans departed from the Christian Faith?
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2006, 11:06:22 AM »

Glory to Jesus Christ!

As I remember hearing...The OCA had an on again, off again relationship to ROCOR.  The OCA did go to the EP and was told to go back to their Mother church and be reconciled.  (Surprising that didn't happen to the Church in England, now.)  After returning to Moscow, the OCA sort of demanded to be made independent. 
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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2006, 11:16:16 AM »

The American metropolia was nominally under ROCOR in Europe from the 1930s until the metropolia council of 1946 when they ended that (upsetting ROCOR, who were just arriving in the US after World War II).

It is, erm, interesting that the Greeks didn't tell Bishop Basil and his followers in Britain to reconcile with their own Russian Church.

Regarding the gates of hell, a poster wrote Russian Church, not Roman Church.

They could prevail against the church in a particular country but that's not what really happened in Russia, at least sacramentally and in terms of belonging to the commonly understood Orthodox communion (inseparable issues to the Orthodox).

As for the magazine quotations, they're understandable (for the time) anti-Soviet fulminations. I've seen Living Orthodoxy before and it may have been approved initially by somebody in ROCOR (?) but my guess is these quotations are only opinion, not doctrine.

A Moscow Patriarchate bishop recently ordained a deacon for ROCOR. (Google and ye shall find.)

Looking at it logically, it's a dead-horse issue.

The Russian Church's bishops are Orthodox bishops.
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2006, 12:16:36 PM »

Does one of you more knowledgeable folk want to just answer FPA's question and give him a short history/timeline of Russian Odoxy in the USA?  He seems to honestly not know and would like an answer thanks.  (I suck at writing and can't remember all the details myself, so I'm out.)
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« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2006, 12:30:15 PM »

Here's one.

Part I: The Russian Orthodox have been in America since 1794 when they set up a colony in Alaska (sold to the US in 1867) and a fort and trading post in northern California (Fort ‘Ross’, really ÐÂ усь). There are some Orthodox Tlingit Indians (a tribe hostile to Christianity at first) and Russian-Aleut creoles in Alaska to this day. They also ministered to Russian expats in the Pacific Rim city of San Francisco (which has a Russian Hill section) and farther away in New York.

Part II: The Ruthenian immigrant schism, a windfall for the Russian Orthodox. Their descendents are 60% of the people in the old Russian dioceses today — not Russians! And they’re centred in America’s old industrial Rust Belt in Ohio and Pennsylvania. Ruthenian immigration to America really ended with World War I.

Part III: The Russian Revolution. The Russian dioceses under a metropolitan archbishop were left leaderless as it became impossible for the persecuted Church of Russia to govern them. Meanwhile in 1920 in Serbia some escaped Russian bishops started a synod in exile for Russians abroad. The Americans went under them for a while in the 1930s but in 1946 voted for de facto independence temporarily until, they hoped, Communism fell.

Part IV: World War II. Right after it, 1) the Soviet Union sent a bishop to America who ordered all the Russian Orthodox to go under him. He picked up a few parishes but most said nyet (see above). And... 2) the synod in exile, the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad or Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR), moved from Munich to New York in 1949 bringing congregations of Russians fleeing the USSR.

(ROCOR were upset that the American sees had just left them and there was a culture clash between Russians and Americans.)

Hence three Russian Orthodox churches in the same turf. They’re all small and essentially the same, only the now-OCA are Americanised (after all most never were Russian and have been American for three or four generations!), using a slightly modified version of the Russian recension of the Byzantine Rite (most use the Western calendar for fixed-date feasts for example.
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« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2006, 01:07:17 PM »

Regarding the gates of hell, a poster wrote Russian Church, not Roman Church.

They could prevail against the church in a particular country but that's not what really happened in Russia, at least sacramentally and in terms of belonging to the commonly understood Orthodox communion (inseparable issues to the Orthodox).

The gates of hell prevaleid against the Roman Church. If they can prevail against the Roman Church, they can prevail against any other particular church.

I say that in this context. Pay more atention on the next time.  Grin
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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2006, 01:11:33 PM »

As for the magazine quotations, they're understandable (for the time) anti-Soviet fulminations. I've seen Living Orthodoxy before and it may have been approved initially by somebody in ROCOR (?) but my guess is these quotations are only opinion, not doctrine.

Oh! The Catacomb Church (the real and true Church in Russia) anathemized the sergianists and all his fellows. This is not a personal opinion.  Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2006, 01:12:21 PM »

Thank you, Serge.
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« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2006, 03:28:14 PM »

Now I understand; thanks. You were saying that Russia 'fell away' and comparing that to the Orthodox view of Rome.

Again, the Russian Church was untrustworthy but never stopped being in the Orthodox communion.

The Catacomb Church didn't speak for Orthodoxy in general and the trouble with it was it was really deep underground - not a cool club that met in semi-secret but really in hiding so it was by definition disorganised and didn't keep records. One group wouldn't know if there were in fact other groups let alone what they were doing. So it's hard to say if a group existed, who they ordained (records? witnesses?) or what they taught. Theological training? Probably not. Chances for little and then big errors to creep in? Sure. Fallen human nature. Like you said, local parts of the church can fall away, or fall into errors like declaring 'Sergianist' clergy not just cowardly or unreliable but graceless.
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« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2006, 06:42:12 PM »

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It did in the Russian Church

You claim that the Church ceased to the Church in Russia.  But why?  Was the church-state relationship of the so-called Sergianism altogether different than the relationship of the Church with the Tsars?  Afterall, the tsars abolished the patriarchate and made the church little more than a department of the state.  If the catacomb church was exclusively the Russian Church, why did Metropolitan Philaret of the ROCOR bless the publication of Elder Tavarion's life?   
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« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2006, 08:22:44 PM »

It is, erm, interesting that the Greeks didn't tell Bishop Basil and his followers in Britain to reconcile with their own Russian Church.

Well, that's an easy one, regardless of your opinion on the matter, it has long and consistantly been the posistion of the Oecumenical Throne that all lands of the Diaspora, which would include Western Europe and Britain, are properly under their omophorion, the decision of Constantinople has to do with canonical propriety and keeping the patriarchate of Moscow within their traditional boarders, it has nothing to do with the Inter-Russian Schisms.

Does one of you more knowledgeable folk want to just answer FPA's question and give him a short history/timeline of Russian Odoxy in the USA?ÂÂ  He seems to honestly not know and would like an answer thanks.ÂÂ  (I suck at writing and can't remember all the details myself, so I'm out.)

He asked a politically charged and biased question, thus evoking a politically charged and biased response. I fear I didn't view the question as honest, but rather as provocative, and responded accordingly. But if, by some chance, he truly wanted an honest response, at least Serge provided it for him.
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« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2006, 08:54:15 PM »

Daher,
I think you need to be a little less judgemental of the Russian Church under communism.  It's easy for us today in the 21st century to comfortably sit back and condemn those who suffered persecution and torture for being Orthodox in those dark days and succumbed to what we see as betrayal of the faith.  We don't know what Patriarch Sergius thought he might accomplish by making his declaration of loyalty.  Only God knows (and only God can condemn - not us).  It's very possible that if he didn't declare loyalty it would have been the end of the Russian Orthodox Church as an organization in the Soviet Union.
As for the ROCOR bishops, it was easy for them to condemn +Sergius with heresy.  They weren't under Communist rule.  Several had abandoned their dioceses and headed west.  (Just to set the record straight, I attended a ROCOR church during my college years and was even tonsured a reader by Metropolitan Philaret of blessed memory, so I have no dislike or agenda against the ROCOR.)
As for the catacomb church, most of what we know about it is from samizdat literature.  They were so underground that even true believers found it difficult if not impossible to hook up with them.
Many brave and courageous Orthodox suffered persecution and martyrdom while still members of the Moscow Patriarchate.  They stood by their church and died for it.  How many of us would/could do that today?  It's easy to say we would but we never know until we are put into that situation.  Through the prayers of the Holy New Martyrs of Russia may we be spared from ever having to find out!
Communism in Russia has been defeated.  It is a new era.  It is time for the different branches of the Russian Orthodox Church to come together in unity.
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« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2006, 09:34:45 PM »

Well, that's an easy one, regardless of your opinion on the matter, it has long and consistantly been the posistion of the Oecumenical Throne that all lands of the Diaspora, which would include Western Europe and Britain, are properly under their omophorion, the decision of Constantinople has to do with canonical propriety and keeping the patriarchate of Moscow within their traditional boarders, it has nothing to do with the Inter-Russian Schisms.

Sure, from your legalistic interpretation of the Canons, this would be your response.  But given the other moves of rather carte blanche taking other jurisdictions under his Omophorioan (e.g. Estonia, Ukraine, etc.) and not denying their "appeals" and handling their own matters internally, his lack of a local flock and related  recent papal acts, it is rather hard to believe His All-Holiness is really handling this from a true pastoral position and not abusing his position at an attempt at some ego-driven power grab.
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« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2006, 09:47:53 PM »

Sure, from your legalistic interpretation of the Canons, this would be your response.ÂÂ  But given the other moves of rather carte blanche taking other jurisdictions under his Omophorioan (e.g. Estonia, Ukraine, etc.) and not denying their "appeals" and handling their own matters internally, his lack of a local flock and relatedÂÂ  recent papal acts, it is rather hard to believe His All-Holiness is really handling this from a true pastoral position and not abusing his position at an attempt at some ego-driven power grab.

Power that is his by right and canon anyway, he's simply taking back that which had been stolen by usurpers and restoring the proper order of things.
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« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2006, 09:55:55 PM »

Power that is his by right and canon anyway, he's simply taking back that which had been stolen by usurpers and restoring the proper order of things.

Pst..
he should take back Patriarchate of Bulgaria too
maybe restore Eastern Roumelia (Northern Thrace) back to Greece.
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« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2006, 03:46:47 PM »


Many brave and courageous Orthodox suffered persecution and martyrdom while still members of the Moscow Patriarchate.ÂÂ  They stood by their church and died for it.ÂÂ  How many of us would/could do that today?ÂÂ  It's easy to say we would but we never know until we are put into that situation.ÂÂ  Through the prayers of the Holy New Martyrs of Russia may we be spared from ever having to find out!
Communism in Russia has been defeated.ÂÂ  It is a new era.ÂÂ  It is time for the different branches of the Russian Orthodox Church to come together in unity.


I would die to protect the Church and Orthodoxy.  From those who would destroy the Church and do away with the Orthodox way of life
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« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2006, 05:16:37 PM »

Daher,
I think you need to be a little less judgemental of the Russian Church under communism.ÂÂ  It's easy for us today in the 21st century to comfortably sit back and condemn those who suffered persecution and torture for being Orthodox in those dark days and succumbed to what we see as betrayal of the faith.ÂÂ  We don't know what Patriarch Sergius thought he might accomplish by making his declaration of loyalty.ÂÂ  Only God knows (and only God can condemn - not us).ÂÂ  It's very possible that if he didn't declare loyalty it would have been the end of the Russian Orthodox Church as an organization in the Soviet Union.

Im not judgind the Russian Church in my comfortably sit. I put a lot of quotations of saints who lived under the persecution, and they people was not comfortably sit. See this example:

"New Martyr Schema-Igumen Zosimas of the Svir desert said: 'In the course of the whole Christian era not one heresiarch has introduced such destructive opinions [as Metropolitan Sergius], which besmirch the great Christian exploit of martyrdom and confession. Not one has yet called on people and taught them to rejoice at the overthrow of everything that was achieved by the Apostolic preaching, by the sufferings of the holy martyrs and confessors What a pity that the majority of hierarchs, keeping quiet about the essence of the question, go round it, not seeing a canon directly relating to this subject, and in this way they calm their conscience. But if there is no direct canon, then there is the Holy Gospel - the foundation of all the canons.'" - Moss, Vladimir. Russian New Martyrs and Confessors.

"Thus Nun Anatolia (Sushkova) declared at her interrogation on November 3: "In accordance with my political world-view, I am hostile to the existing regime in Russia for the following reasons: Soviet power is an atheist power which wages war on religion and closes churches, repressing the clergy and thereby persecuting the faith. But we Buyevtsy are conducting an irreconcilable struggle with Soviet power and its enterprises, creating the most fitting cadres of True Orthodox Christians, who can be strong fighters for the Christian faith in Russia." - idem

"On October 1,1929, under pressure from the sergianist bishops, he served in the cemetery church, commemorating the name of Metropolitan Sergius. What happened next was described by Hieromartyr Nectarius, Bishop of Yaransk, his fellow-prisoner on Solovki, who heard it from Vladyka Hilarion himself: 'Shortly before this [service in the cemetery church], he had a very frightening dream. It was as if he trampled the Smolensk Hodigitria icon of the Mother of God under foot. And what then? After serving the liturgy with the sergianist bishops, instead of receiving spiritual consolation and joy, he began to feel terrible pangs of conscience and depression of spirit, 'and the sergianist apostasy,' he told me, 'became quite clear to me - I had turned out to be a participator in the sergianist crimes against the Orthodox Church.' And what then? At that very moment he declared to the sergianist bishops that he was leaving them and returning to his former ecclesiastical position with Bishops Victor, Nectarius, Demetrius and the others." - idem

As for the ROCOR bishops, it was easy for them to condemn +Sergius with heresy.ÂÂ  They weren't under Communist rule.ÂÂ  Several had abandoned their dioceses and headed west.ÂÂ  (Just to set the record straight, I attended a ROCOR church during my college years and was even tonsured a reader by Metropolitan Philaret of blessed memory, so I have no dislike or agenda against the ROCOR.)

This is a insult! The ROCOR bishops suffer a lot with the state of Russia. And yes, this is a agenda against ROCOR.

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« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2006, 05:41:04 PM »

How have the gates of hell prevailed against the Church when it is still around?  Were the Russian Church to cease to exist, the gates of hell would still not have prevailed against the Church for there are other Churches.  But even this did not happen for that particular jurisdiction is still in existance.  What about all the thousands of individual monasteries and churches that have been closed down over the years?  According to the logic some posters are using, then the gates of hell have prevailed against them.  Jesus wasnt talking about a particular building or jurisdiction, but as I have already pointed out even the jurisdiction in question is still around.
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« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2006, 05:42:39 PM »

Power that is his by right and canon anyway, he's simply taking back that which had been stolen by usurpers and restoring the proper order of things.

Considering that he never had what you claim was "stolen" to begin with, this claim is without merit.  He should be thanking and supporting the Patriarchates that he is just "taking back" their flocks from because of the EPs inability evangelize these areas in the first place.
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« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2006, 08:20:33 PM »

The ROCOR bishops suffer a lot with the state of Russia. And yes, this is a agenda against ROCOR.
I'm having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say.  Do you mean that they suffered a lot with (emotionally, psychologically) the persecuted state of Russia or suffered a lot under (direct) persecution by the Soviet regime?
The ROCOR considered itself the Russian Church in exile.  Therefore, its bishops were not in the Soviet Union but outside (in exile).
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« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2006, 08:25:03 PM »

I would die to protect the Church and Orthodoxy.  From those who would destroy the Church and do away with the Orthodox way of life
Matthew 26:30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
31 Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of me this night; for it is written, 'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.' 32 But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee." 33 Peter declared to him, "Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away." 34 Jesus said to him, "Truly, I say to you, this very night, before the cock crows, you will deny me three times." 35 Peter said to him, "Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you." And so said all the disciples.
56 Then all the disciples forsook him and fled.
69 Now Peter was sitting outside in the courtyard. And a maid came up to him, and said, "You also were with Jesus the Galilean." 70 But he denied it before them all, saying, "I do not know what you mean." 71 And when he went out to the porch, another maid saw him, and she said to the bystanders, "This man was with Jesus of Nazareth." 72 And again he denied it with an oath, "I do not know the man." 73 After a little while the bystanders came up and said to Peter, "Certainly you are also one of them, for your accent betrays you." 74 Then he began to invoke a curse on himself and to swear, "I do not know the man." And immediately the cock crowed. 75 And Peter remembered the saying of Jesus, "Before the cock crows, you will deny me three times."

As I said in my post, "It's easy to say we would but we never know until we are put into that situation."
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« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2006, 08:34:04 PM »

Im not judgind the Russian Church in my comfortably sit. I put a lot of quotations of saints who lived under the persecution, and they people was not comfortably sit. See this example:

"New Martyr Schema-Igumen Zosimas of the Svir desert said: 'In the course of the whole Christian era not one heresiarch has introduced such destructive opinions [as Metropolitan Sergius], which besmirch the great Christian exploit of martyrdom and confession. Not one has yet called on people and taught them to rejoice at the overthrow of everything that was achieved by the Apostolic preaching, by the sufferings of the holy martyrs and confessors What a pity that the majority of hierarchs, keeping quiet about the essence of the question, go round it, not seeing a canon directly relating to this subject, and in this way they calm their conscience. But if there is no direct canon, then there is the Holy Gospel - the foundation of all the canons.'" - Moss, Vladimir. Russian New Martyrs and Confessors.

"Thus Nun Anatolia (Sushkova) declared at her interrogation on November 3: "In accordance with my political world-view, I am hostile to the existing regime in Russia for the following reasons: Soviet power is an atheist power which wages war on religion and closes churches, repressing the clergy and thereby persecuting the faith. But we Buyevtsy are conducting an irreconcilable struggle with Soviet power and its enterprises, creating the most fitting cadres of True Orthodox Christians, who can be strong fighters for the Christian faith in Russia." - idem

"On October 1,1929, under pressure from the sergianist bishops, he served in the cemetery church, commemorating the name of Metropolitan Sergius. What happened next was described by Hieromartyr Nectarius, Bishop of Yaransk, his fellow-prisoner on Solovki, who heard it from Vladyka Hilarion himself: 'Shortly before this [service in the cemetery church], he had a very frightening dream. It was as if he trampled the Smolensk Hodigitria icon of the Mother of God under foot. And what then? After serving the liturgy with the sergianist bishops, instead of receiving spiritual consolation and joy, he began to feel terrible pangs of conscience and depression of spirit, 'and the sergianist apostasy,' he told me, 'became quite clear to me - I had turned out to be a participator in the sergianist crimes against the Orthodox Church.' And what then? At that very moment he declared to the sergianist bishops that he was leaving them and returning to his former ecclesiastical position with Bishops Victor, Nectarius, Demetrius and the others." - idem

As for the ROCOR bishops, it was easy for them to condemn +Sergius with heresy.ÂÂ  They weren't under Communist rule.ÂÂ  Several had abandoned their dioceses and headed west.ÂÂ  (Just to set the record straight, I attended a ROCOR church during my college years and was even tonsured a reader by Metropolitan Philaret of blessed memory, so I have no dislike or agenda against the ROCOR.)

This is a insult! The ROCOR bishops suffer a lot with the state of Russia. And yes, this is a agenda against ROCOR
.



There was no insult intended to ROCOR or OCA. But just how much does the Hiearchs of ROCORÂÂ  and OCA tell their people and lower clergy from Priest to subdeacons on what they are really doing. Here is the website of the ROAC http://www.roacusa.org/index.htmlÂÂ  and go to Documents then to 2005 Document you'll be surprised on what you'll see and read. this is why some bishops that were with ROCOR left to continue the Catacomb Church as name ROAC
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« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2006, 09:18:29 PM »

Matthew 26:30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
31 Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of me this night; for it is written, 'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.' 32 But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee." 33 Peter declared to him, "Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away." 34 Jesus said to him, "Truly, I say to you, this very night, before the cock crows, you will deny me three times." 35 Peter said to him, "Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you." And so said all the disciples.
56 Then all the disciples forsook him and fled.
69 Now Peter was sitting outside in the courtyard. And a maid came up to him, and said, "You also were with Jesus the Galilean." 70 But he denied it before them all, saying, "I do not know what you mean." 71 And when he went out to the porch, another maid saw him, and she said to the bystanders, "This man was with Jesus of Nazareth." 72 And again he denied it with an oath, "I do not know the man." 73 After a little while the bystanders came up and said to Peter, "Certainly you are also one of them, for your accent betrays you." 74 Then he began to invoke a curse on himself and to swear, "I do not know the man." And immediately the cock crowed. 75 And Peter remembered the saying of Jesus, "Before the cock crows, you will deny me three times."

As I said in my post, "It's easy to say we would but we never know until we are put into that situation."
Very well put, Carpatho Russian. Thank you.
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« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2006, 11:35:39 PM »

There was no insult intended to ROCOR or OCA. But just how much does the Hiearchs of ROCOR  and OCA tell their people and lower clergy from Priest to subdeacons on what they are really doing. Here is the website of the ROAC http://www.roacusa.org/index.html  and go to Documents then to 2005 Document you'll be surprised on what you'll see and read. this is why some bishops that were with ROCOR left to continue the Catacomb Church as name ROAC
They tell you quite a bit.  Please don't judge a jurisidiction that you have never been a part of.  If a memeber wishes to find out what's happening, then you ask your priest.  If not then ask your bishop.  One you get past the language barrier (which is easier than harder) they're actually quite open, at least in my experience.  Not only that, but hte ROCOR heiarchy has produced many newsletters and articles about what has happened.  They are quite clear on the falsehood of ROAC's claims.  If you wish to have a better idea, then read such articles, not on the internet, call a deacon, priest, or even a bishop of ROCOR.  For that matter, if you want to talk about it and understand, then you're even welcome to PM myself or other members.
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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2006, 01:22:06 AM »

They tell you quite a bit.ÂÂ  Please don't judge a jurisidiction that you have never been a part of.ÂÂ  If a memeber wishes to find out what's happening, then you ask your priest.ÂÂ  If not then ask your bishop.ÂÂ  One you get past the language barrier (which is easier than harder) they're actually quite open, at least in my experience.ÂÂ  Not only that, but hte ROCOR heiarchy has produced many newsletters and articles about what has happened.ÂÂ  They are quite clear on the falsehood of ROAC's claims.ÂÂ  If you wish to have a better idea, then read such articles, not on the internet, call a deacon, priest, or even a bishop of ROCOR.ÂÂ  For that matter, if you want to talk about it and understand, then you're even welcome to PM myself or other members.

The Web site for the ROAC which also has Documents which looks like a new paper on mico-film. Some of the Documant date back to 1975  to 2005 which comes from ROCOR. See I have been going by what I have read from Other people on the OrthodoxChristianity.net. About what is going on in Russia. If I could read Russian I would have a MP news letter or paper sent to me to keep up with what going on Between ROCOR, OCA,ROAC.EP. and other jurisdiction that deal with the MP. But what gets be angry is that the MP has it hands with the Secrate Police what ever it is called now becides KGB. doing dirty thing against Clergy that won't return to the MP. This is why I say at the End on my Post What Does GOD think about all of this.
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« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2006, 09:39:13 PM »

Here's the correct URL to the history I linked earlier.
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« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2006, 10:37:56 PM »

It sounds to me like this whole discussion revolves around differing interpretations of "the gates of hell..." and questions of when apostolic succession is legitimate or not.

If we take the Church as the communion of individual churches, each presided over by a legitimately ordained and orthodox bishop, then it seems to me, in my limited understanding of the history, that MP, ROCOR, and OCA have never left the Church, since even during Soviet days they all shared communion.  Or have I got my history wrong here?

And even if one could argue that a particular jurisdiction, had left the fold, clearly that is not the case now.  It's always been my understanding that even if parts of the Church struggle or even fall away, that doesn't mean they cannot be rescued or rehabilitated later, so long as there is at least one legitimate apostolic orthodox bishop somewhere in the world.  Right?

Is my understanding here essentially correct?  Or am I totally misunderstanding things?

Thanks,
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« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2006, 12:10:55 AM »

Here's the correct URL to the history I linked earlier.

Which URL was that HuhHuh?
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« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2006, 12:14:27 AM »

It sounds to me like this whole discussion revolves around differing interpretations of "the gates of hell..." and questions of when apostolic succession is legitimate or not.

If we take the Church as the communion of individual churches, each presided over by a legitimately ordained and orthodox bishop, then it seems to me, in my limited understanding of the history, that MP, ROCOR, and OCA have never left the Church, since even during Soviet days they all shared communion.ÂÂ  Or have I got my history wrong here?

And even if one could argue that a particular jurisdiction, had left the fold, clearly that is not the case now.ÂÂ  It's always been my understanding that even if parts of the Church struggle or even fall away, that doesn't mean they cannot be rescued or rehabilitated later, so long as there is at least one legitimate apostolic orthodox bishop somewhere in the world.ÂÂ  Right?

Is my understanding here essentially correct?ÂÂ  Or am I totally misunderstanding things?

Thanks,
Brian

Four the History part it is right. your other Question is right. I would say Correct.but I think others will say other wise.
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« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2006, 02:18:27 AM »

Im not judgind the Russian Church in my comfortably sit. I put a lot of quotations of saints who lived under the persecution, and they people was not comfortably sit.
It's possible to express your judgment by the quotes you choose to cite.
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« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2006, 08:44:38 PM »

Power that is his by right and canon anyway, he's simply taking back that which had been stolen by usurpers and restoring the proper order of things.
How does the above attitude jibe with the following passage from the Gospel of St. Luke?

Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should be considered the greatest.  And He said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called 'benefactors.'  But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves.  For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves?  Is it not he who sits at the table?  Yet I am among you as the One who serves." (Luke 22:24-27, NKJV)

If the attitude GiC portrays above is not consistent with the Gospel I just quoted, then from where does this attitude come?  It is certainly NOT Christian!  If the EP is truly the Ecumenical authority of the Church, then let him demonstrate his authority by serving the needs of the Church and not the so-called prerogatives of his own imperial power.
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« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2006, 09:07:23 PM »

  If the EP is truly the Ecumenical authority of the Church, then let him demonstrate his authority by serving the needs of the Church and not the so-called prerogatives of his own imperial power.

Please be so kind as to enumerate these presumably, in your opinion, unmet needs, PetertheAleut.
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« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2006, 09:18:17 PM »

If the attitude GiC portrays above is not consistent with the Gospel I just quoted, then from where does this attitude come?ÂÂ  It is certainly NOT Christian!ÂÂ  If the EP is truly the Ecumenical authority of the Church, then let him demonstrate his authority by serving the needs of the Church and not the so-called prerogatives of his own imperial power.

The Oecumenical Throne should serve the Church and, alas, this is what the Great Church of Christ is doing. What the Church needs and unity and a strong central authority. Since the Council of Chalcedon this authority and unity has existed in the Orthodox Church it was located at the centre of Imperial Authority, by virtue of the presence of Senate, Emperor, and Patriarch Constantinople was the centre of the Christian world to which all Christians looked. This unity preserved the Church through many hard times; in time of heresy the Church did not splinter but reform itself from within, in time of schism the Church held together and only one patriarchate was lost. This came about by unity, the unity that was offered by the Great Church of Christ and by Imperial Authority. After the fall of the Most Blessed Empire and the decline of Imperial Authority the Great Church of Christ still held Christendom together allowing her to survive in the face of the Turks, who, try as they might, failed to eradicate the faith.

But then in the 19th Century came an enemy to the unity of the Church, and even to the Existance of Christendom, this threat was and is perhaps greater than the threat of the early heretics, latin schismatics, or turkish infidels...it is the threat of nationalist influencing the ecclesiology of the Church. It is this threat that Constantinople can and does combat; the dangers are manifest and numerous, so the Great Church of Christ must act with caution and can not easily destroy the threat of nationalism. Nationalism tore the Church asunder in the 19th Century, starting with Greece and spreading like a plague; Constantinople first struck back against this evil with the Synod of Constantinople in 1872 where the territorial integrity of Episcopal authority was upheld and the opponents anathematized. Slowly throughout the 20th Centuries the Great Church of Christ, mostly with the aid of the other four ancient sees that have remained loyal to the Church, has done what she can to minimize the damage caused by nationalism in her daughter Churches.

Constantinople as a mother to her daughters does serve and help them, as our Lord did to his disciples; but when her daughters error, it is her responsibility to do what she can to both correct and protect them, as our Lord did to his disciples.

You claim that Constantinople does only what she does to protect the perogatives of her imperial authority; but the canons and tradition protect this authority, she does not need to; if all the other Churches abandoned her she alone, in all the world, would still be Orthodox. The Great Church of Christ knows this and as a Lord has no need to prove his authority and birth to his servants so also does Constantinople, the Ancient See of Imperial Authority, have no need to prove her posistion, honour, and authority to her daughter Churches.

Rather than trying to prove her authority to her daughter Churches, Constantinople is using her rightful authority, which she holds with no insecurity, to correct her daughters where in error and preserve the true religion in them. And in doing this Constantinople serves all the Church as our Lord served His disciples...not by sacrificing the authority that was His by nature of who He was; but rather by looking out for the best interests of others, rather than Himself, by using the authority that was His by nature.
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« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2006, 09:41:18 PM »

Ouch...you go, guy  Cheesy
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