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Author Topic: Montenegrin Orthodox Church???  (Read 2717 times) Average Rating: 0
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SouthSerb99
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« on: June 19, 2006, 10:04:49 AM »

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=1546

Montenegro’s independence will shake position of unrecognized Montenegrin Orthodox Church - Metropolitan Amfilohije

Moscow, June 8, Interfax - Montenegro’s independence will noticeably shake the position of the self-styled Orthodox Church in that country, believes Metropolitan Amfilohije of Montenegro and Primorje, Serbian Orthodox Church.

‘These self-consecrators (clergy of the so-called Montenegrin Orthodox Church - IF) have been in fact used by some politicians to obtain Montenegro’s independence. Now when the independence is already there, they will hopefully refuse the support of this pseudo-religious organization’, Metropolitan Amfilohije said in a talk with journalists.

He thinks the Montenegrin leaders are well aware that this ‘church’ does not enjoy any support in the Orthodox world.

In this connection, the head of the Montenegro diocese of the Serbian Orthodox Church informed the journalists that the organization that claims to be Montenegrin Orthodox Church has only three or four self-consecrated priests, and it is headed by so-called ‘Metropolitan’ Miras Dedeic, who previously was a married priest in Italy. As for the Montenegrin Church’s property, it amounts only to one or two churches in Montenegro, which were taken away from the canonical Church some time ago and have not been returned as yet.

The ‘Montenegrin Orthodox Church’ itself was founded in 1993 by Serbian-born Archimandrite Antonij Abramovic, who had been a cleric of the Orthodox Church in America, Metropolitan Amfilohije said.

He also reminded the journalists that the Metropolia of Montenegro was closely bound up with the Serbian Church for 800 years. In 1766, when the throne of the Patriarchs of Pec was eliminated, the dioceses of the Serbian Church were incorporated in the Patriarchate of Constantinople. The Metropolia of Montenegro had in fact preserved its autonomy. But in the 20th centuries 20s when an opportunity presented itself for all the individual Serbian autonomies to unite again, the Metropolia of Montenegro was the first to decide to unite with the Metropolia of Serbia.

In this way, Metropolitan Amfilohije summed up, ‘the Metropolia of Montenegro enjoyed autonomy but never asked for autocephaly, i.e. independence’.
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2006, 10:10:05 AM »

Yes, this will be interesting. This 'church' really did get popular support from the independence minded Montenegrins. Good to have a little more background on it, however.
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2006, 10:14:21 AM »

What surprised me most was this quote:

Quote
The ‘Montenegrin Orthodox Church’ itself was founded in 1993 by Serbian-born Archimandrite Antonij Abramovic, who had been a cleric of the Orthodox Church in America

I had no idea.
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2006, 10:24:53 AM »

What surprised me most was this quote:

I had no idea.

Neither had I. I had read, apparently incorrect, that the founder was a priest released or 'dismissed' from either Greece or Constantinople who self-styled himself a bishop. Good info's hard to come by in these matters sometimes.
Wonder how closely they will parallel the "Macedonians" - the other ones?   Wink
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2006, 11:15:07 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9308.msg124897#msg124897 date=1150727093]
Wonder how closely they will parallel the "Macedonians" - the other ones?  ÃƒÆ’‚ Wink
[/quote]

Everyone will (and mostly has) recognized Montenegro and will definitly be forced to recognize the Montenegrin Orthodox Church, which is more than what I can say for FYR Macedonia.
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2006, 11:22:42 AM »

Why?  What's the basis for the recognition of the Montenegrin Church?
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2006, 11:33:05 AM »

Why?ÂÂ  What's the basis for the recognition of the Montenegrin Church?

Built on the basis that only Serbia will be against it and the Montenegrin Church/Nation has a strong connection with Russia. Who cares what Serbia thinks?
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2006, 11:36:02 AM »

Montenegro, Japan end 100 years' war
By UNITED PRESS INTERNATIONAL
Published June 16, 2006


PODGORICA, Serbia-Montenegro -- Montenegro says Japan has recognized the Balkan country as an independent state, ending more than 100 years of a state of war.
     
    Akiko Yamanaka, Japan's deputy foreign minister and the prime minister's special envoy is scheduled to arrive in Podgorica next week to deliver a letter to Montenegrin officials declaring the war is over and Tokyo recognizes Montenegro as an independent state, Belgrade's B92 radio reported Friday.
 
     
    The countries have been in a technical state of war since the 1904-05 Russo-Japan War and Montenegro sided with Russia. A local historian Told B92 that Montenegro's participation in the war was symbolic

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2006, 11:40:04 AM »

Everyone will (and mostly has) recognized Montenegro and will definitly be forced to recognize the Montenegrin Orthodox Church, which is more than what I can say for FYR Macedonia.

I am afraid I need a list of which Orthodox Churches have (or will mostly?) recognize this church.
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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2006, 11:43:38 AM »

Built on the basis that only Serbia will be against it and the Montenegrin Church/Nation has a strong connection with Russia. Who cares what Serbia thinks?

Sloga,

This has NEVER been the basis for establishing a Church in Communion with the rest of the Orthodox world.

Listen, I could pop a cross on top of my house and call it the "Orthodox Church of the East Coast".  Throw some icons on the wall purchase some vestments etc...

Just calling yourself Orthodox has never made it so.  What makes you Orthodox is following the Traditions of the Church (which include the proper means of attaining ones autocephaly).
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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2006, 11:53:20 AM »

Just calling yourself Orthodox has never made it so.ÂÂ  What makes you Orthodox is following the Traditions of the Church (which include the proper means of attaining ones autocephaly).

And being ordained to the episcopacy by Orthodox Bishops.
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2006, 12:01:36 PM »

Sloga,

Check out this post here, where I quoted from Bishop Kallistos Ware.  Often, we are too quick to equate nation with a "national Church".

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=6781.msg94108#msg94108
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« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2006, 12:02:19 PM »

And being ordained to the episcopacy by Orthodox Bishops.
I'm always forgetting all of those silly little rules. LOL  Wink
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« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2006, 12:06:07 PM »

I might have given the feeling that I said everyone will automatically recognize the church, which I know is impossible. However, I gurantee you still that eventually it will be recognized. SS, have you ever listened to a Montenegrin debate why it should be a seperate identity? They have some good points.

 The Sintagma, whose printing was approved by the Patriarchy of Constatinople in Athens 1855, the "Autocephalous Metropolis of Montenegro (Autokefalna Mitropolija Crnogorska)" is listed under number nine.

They even have facts about its relations with Constantinople prior to the 1700s, where it clearly shows the MOC as an Autocephalous church.

Now, the problem here they Montenegrins refuse to talk about, is that the MOC eventually vanished, because it had no official followers and the rulers always proclaimed themselves as Serbian Orthodox. However, it is obvious that it did once exist, and given some time, I am extreemly confident that it will be recognized, given the right amount of time.
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« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2006, 12:23:04 PM »

Well, I'm going to do my best GiC impression here (although he is certainly the guy to speak to about this issue), but I'll try my best.

By the 28th Canon of Chalcedon the Ecumenical Patriarch was responsible for the "barbarian lands", which covers modern day Montenegro (and Macedonia). 

When the SOC was granted autocephaly from the EP, she was given the responsibility over these lands.  Thus, for both the Montenegrin Church and the Macedonian Church, autocephaly must come through the SOC.  I really do not see any compelling arguments against it.
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« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2006, 04:57:32 PM »

Sloga,

This has NEVER been the basis for establishing a Church in Communion with the rest of the Orthodox world.

Listen, I could pop a cross on top of my house and call it the "Orthodox Church of the East Coast".ÂÂ  Throw some icons on the wall purchase some vestments etc...

Just calling yourself Orthodox has never made it so.ÂÂ  What makes you Orthodox is following the Traditions of the Church (which include the proper means of attaining ones autocephaly).

Just so that I  have it all right, what are the proper means of attaining autocephaly?  I want to do it right when I start the Orthodox Church of the Adirondacks.  Where would I find a bishop willing to ordain me?

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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2006, 10:52:34 AM »

Just so that IÂÂ  have it all right, what are the proper means of attaining autocephaly?

The best article on the subject is John Erickson's "Autocephaly in Orthodox Canonical Literature to the Thirteenth Century," St Vladimir's Theological Quarterly 15 (1971), 28-41. If you can't get your hands on that, a very similar (possibly identical -- can't remember) article appears as a chapter in his book The Challenge of Our Past: Essays in Orthodox Church History and Canon Law (SVS Press, 1990), which has a number of excellent essays.

Other than that, most of what seems to be your question (on this thread and others) is addressed in this online article by Lewis J. Patsavos: Unity and Autocephaly: Mutually Exclusive?

I want to do it right when I start the Orthodox Church of the Adirondacks.  Where would I find a bishop willing to ordain me?

I imagine you could find any number of "bishops" to ordain you. Try getting in touch with LINK REMOVED, who, in addition to being the Bishop of MANY churches, is also a Plenipotentiary of the Russian Federation, a Patriarch and a Russian Grand Duke (not to mention a man who uses a bed post as his bishop's staff).


IMAGE REMOVED

Sorry, I had to remove the links. That guy is litigious (he's threatened us before) and while he would probably lose, I don't want to go through a lawsuit.  Sorry!

Anastasios
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« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2006, 11:10:52 AM »

Thanks for the link to the article.  It gives a fantastic explanation (albeit a bit over my head).

I could've used this a few months ago when I was having this debate with some others!!!
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« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2006, 11:55:04 AM »



I think this guy is starting to became famous...as I've heard other Orthodox talk about him too.
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« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2006, 11:56:44 AM »



When I asked about finding a Bishop to ordain me, it was to be funny . . . but now you've given me some ideas . . . hmmm.
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« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2006, 12:02:35 PM »

When I asked about finding a Bishop to ordain me, it was to be funny . . . but now you've given me some ideas . . . hmmm.

 Wink If you ever need vestments, I have some spare carpet in the basement; and if you happen to need a staff, I've got a good collection of tomatoe stakes on the porch!


P.S. I knew (or hoped!) you were kidding. The articles I mentioned, however, are definitely worth reading.
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« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2006, 12:10:56 PM »

Sorry, I had to remove the links. That guy is litigious (he's threatened us before) and while he would probably lose, I don't want to go through a lawsuit.ÂÂ  Sorry!

Anastasios[/color]

Ah. Figures. No need to apologize for other's un-Christian actions. I completely understand.
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« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2006, 12:19:47 PM »


When I asked about finding a Bishop to ordain me, it was to be funny . . . but now you've given me some ideas . . . hmmm.

Psaltiboy,

First off, I urge you to not go outside of the Church for an ordination...

Secondly, you've been asking many questions regarding leading services, or holding them in your immediate local area. If you are feeling a need to do so, then please speak to your bishop and start a mission.

I think you at least used to be in the GOA; they are actually on a big push and have allocated special funding for missions. Maybe after a few years of you doing the Typika with an occaisonal priest visiting, your new community can form a parish! What a wonderful legacy for you to have! If not the GOA, the Antiochians or OCA may be interested.

The big thing is...don't go grazing outside of the Orthodox Corral. The grass is not greener in other churches. Please, please consider having a mission potentially blossom where God has planted you!
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« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2006, 12:24:53 PM »

I think Psalti was just having a bit of fun.

In any event, read my title... I'm free to ordain anyone who wants, as the Archbishop of Shlivo, I take my title very seriously!

Also, I use a broken hockey stick as my staff.  It's a Koho, do I need to amend my Title???
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« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2006, 01:05:12 PM »

I think Psalti was just having a bit of fun.

In any event, read my title... I'm free to ordain anyone who wants, as the Archbishop of Shlivo, I take my title very seriously!

Also, I use a broken hockey stick as my staff.ÂÂ  It's a Koho, do I need to amend my Title???

Yeah, I decided to give up my title as Metropolitan of Lactaid and all other digestive disorders . . . because I couldn't find an appropriate staff,  although my vestments were made in the black and white cow pattern.
Just kidding . . . again.
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« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2006, 02:44:33 PM »

My vestments aim to spice up Liturgy.  I hope you can read cyrillic.

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« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2006, 04:32:41 PM »

My vestments aim to spice up Liturgy.ÂÂ  I hope you can read cyrillic.



Cool Vestments!!  And no, I can't read Cyrillic.
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« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2006, 08:37:29 PM »

Well, it says "Super Serbian"! LOL
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« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2006, 09:41:41 PM »

Well, it says "Super Serbian"! LOL

Yep, that's what I thought.
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« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2006, 10:08:54 PM »

Quote

IMAGE REMOVED

Sorry, I had to remove the links. That guy is litigious (he's threatened us before) and while he would probably lose, I don't want to go through a lawsuit.  Sorry!

Anastasios


Was this a link to the site with the guy who looks like John Candy? If so, someone please PM me the URL, I haven't seen that site in a long while and could use a laugh again.
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